There is no rule that says all archetypes need to be represented equally for the format to be healthy. In fact, history shows the opposite is usually better so long as one particular deck does not become too oppressive.
I find this claim interesting and am interested in hearing more on the topic. What historical evidence do you draw on to come to the conclusion that "the opposite [of the idea that "all archetypes need to be represented equally for the format to be healthy"] is usually better so long as one particular deck does not become too oppressive"?
Easy, everyone here agrees that at some point in time, the format seemed healthy to them. Aggro has almost consistently been 45%+ of the meta since 2011. So we never had true 50/50/50 balance. Yet people seem to be complaining now (mostly Twin players), about how the format is so unhealthy, toxic, and unbalanced.
Control has almost always been sub 26% of the meta, save for one year (and Twin did not contribute to that anomaly).
Interestingly, Control ticked-up 5% in 2016.
I don't think "healthy" is the correct word. "Enjoyable" is probably what you are looking for, because I don't think Modern was ever "healthy" even during fake diversity of being killed on turn 3 by 3 completely different decks. I thought TC Delver/Birthing Pod was "enjoyable" but it definitely wasn't "healthy".
exactly what I said a couple Months ago. It was obvious then. But now it's super obvious they don't care about blue and white. They could have easily taken action and Probably been fine. But they are too busy with standard. Modern is going the way of the dodo bird, it may take 10 years but mark my words it will be the next legacy. These eternal formats just aren't a big priority. And that's not something I want to invest several grand into.
Can I have your cards?
But seriously, I dont understand how people can act so entitled. The format is fine. Its working. People are having fun. I understand people like you are grumpy, but dont make it seem like you're quitting because the format sucks.
actually the format isn't fine in a couple ways colour balance, archtype balance. wizards is not doing anything about it because standard is the priority (they literally just said this) . But continue to look at the game with rose tinted glasses. I've been SELLING my cards, as if I'd give them away....
There's nothing entitled about wanting a better balanced game. If anything your the one who is coming off as entitled and arrogant. Then again coming from you it doesn't suprise me.
Why are you replying to messages you don't read? Subpar is not the same as unplayable. Admittedly, combo and control are not on an equal footing - combo being decidedly better positioned.
I read everything. You say subpar, but you basically mean unplayable. Because for many here, if its subpar, or not Tier 1, it is unplayable. I enjoy reading intent more than what you put on the screen.
exactly what I said a couple Months ago. It was obvious then. But now it's super obvious they don't care about blue and white. They could have easily taken action and Probably been fine. But they are too busy with standard. Modern is going the way of the dodo bird, it may take 10 years but mark my words it will be the next legacy. These eternal formats just aren't a big priority. And that's not something I want to invest several grand into.
Can I have your cards?
But seriously, I dont understand how people can act so entitled. The format is fine. Its working. People are having fun. I understand people like you are grumpy, but dont make it seem like you're quitting because the format sucks.
actually the format isn't fine in a couple ways colour balance, archtype balance. wizards is not doing anything about it because standard is the priority (they literally just said this) . But continue to look at the game with rose tinted glasses. I've been SELLING my cards, as if I'd give them away....
There's nothing entitled about wanting a better balanced game. If anything your the one who is coming off as entitled and arrogant. Then again coming from you it doesn't suprise me.
Im arrogant for saying the format is just fine, and we should just enjoy it for what it is? Ok!
Color balance. Again, nothing in the rules or promises says colors must be balanced in any format. MMORPGs cant even balance different player classes, and they can hotfix their games anytime they want. You think a card game that designs years ahead, can find balance in all colors in all formats?
exactly what I said a couple Months ago. It was obvious then. But now it's super obvious they don't care about blue and white. They could have easily taken action and Probably been fine. But they are too busy with standard. Modern is going the way of the dodo bird, it may take 10 years but mark my words it will be the next legacy. These eternal formats just aren't a big priority. And that's not something I want to invest several grand into.
Can I have your cards?
But seriously, I dont understand how people can act so entitled. The format is fine. Its working. People are having fun. I understand people like you are grumpy, but dont make it seem like you're quitting because the format sucks.
actually the format isn't fine in a couple ways colour balance, archtype balance. wizards is not doing anything about it because standard is the priority (they literally just said this) . But continue to look at the game with rose tinted glasses. I've been SELLING my cards, as if I'd give them away....
There's nothing entitled about wanting a better balanced game. If anything your the one who is coming off as entitled and arrogant. Then again coming from you it doesn't suprise me.
Im arrogant for saying the format is just fine, and we should just enjoy it for what it is? Ok!
Color balance. Again, nothing in the rules or promises says colors must be balanced in any format. MMORPGs cant even balance different player classes, and they can hotfix their games anytime they want. You think a card game that designs years ahead, can find balance in all colors in all formats?
Please.
Yes it is arrogant to think things are peachy when stats prove otherwise. But that's totally fine as long as you don't force your opinion on others.
My statement however isn't an opinion it's a fact= colour imbalance, archtype imbalance.
Yea some games are badly managed that's my point. Others have balance.
You have the bar set low. Good for you. I on the other hand think that a game where a deck is 1k each it should be a bit better managed . some Free games are better managed than modern and standard....
It's important to remember Wizards isn't necessarily looking to create a format that has color or archetype balance. They want to create a format that draws the most players and gives them the most money(cards enter from standard and not the secondary market). For better or worse that's their goal. This makes it hard to know things like whether control is viable in non rotating formats because creating a control deck may not align with a format being profitable with no regard for how healthy it is for a format or if it brings balance.
"colour imbalance, archtype imbalance" | You take the "imbalances" here and conclude the format is unhealthy. I guess until we define what healthy actually means, we are both wrong and right.
Lol this thread has taken a header into the rocks...
There are SIMPLE things Wizards could try, but they refuse.
It's simple to look at Forsythes posts and tweets and make a few conclusions.
1. He actually thinks there is an issue with colour balance.
2. OR he is lying through his teeth and telling people what they want to hear.
Pick one.
We then have affirmation that bans took place to shake up the format, confirmed because they didn't have confidence in new sets doing anything.
We then have about a half dozen cards that have no need to be banned, but people defend Wizards because the format is fine to them.
Meanwhile, Wizards is so inept they cannot urban anything 'because other formats have issues'.
Excuse me, but WHO THE **** CARES.
I have no care, at all, not a single ***** to give, about the joke of a format that is standard. It may as well be limited, full of garbage that is a direct downgrade to what we have in Modern.
To have had what, four?, announcements and nothing come off for Blue and White is a farce. It's a joke, and I'm going to pack a bunch of my cards down to the LGS and sell.
If you're of the opinion that Wizards is doing right for the format, is doing the best they can, well I can't help your incorrect views.
exactly what I said a couple Months ago. It was obvious then. But now it's super obvious they don't care about blue and white. They could have easily taken action and Probably been fine. But they are too busy with standard. Modern is going the way of the dodo bird, it may take 10 years but mark my words it will be the next legacy. These eternal formats just aren't a big priority. And that's not something I want to invest several grand into.
Can I have your cards?
But seriously, I dont understand how people can act so entitled. The format is fine. Its working. People are having fun. I understand people like you are grumpy, but dont make it seem like you're quitting because the format sucks.
actually the format isn't fine in a couple ways colour balance, archtype balance. wizards is not doing anything about it because standard is the priority (they literally just said this) . But continue to look at the game with rose tinted glasses. I've been SELLING my cards, as if I'd give them away....
There's nothing entitled about wanting a better balanced game. If anything your the one who is coming off as entitled and arrogant. Then again coming from you it doesn't suprise me.
Im arrogant for saying the format is just fine, and we should just enjoy it for what it is? Ok!
Color balance. Again, nothing in the rules or promises says colors must be balanced in any format. MMORPGs cant even balance different player classes, and they can hotfix their games anytime they want. You think a card game that designs years ahead, can find balance in all colors in all formats?
Please.
Yes it is arrogant to think things are peachy when stats prove otherwise. But that's totally fine as long as you don't force your opinion on others.
My statement however isn't an opinion it's a fact= colour imbalance, archtype imbalance.
Yea some games are badly managed that's my point. Others have balance.
You have the bar set low. Good for you. I on the other hand think that a game where a deck is 1k each it should be a bit better managed . some Free games are better managed than modern and standard....
Would you please share your anger or complain to WOTC directly, via Email, Twitter, or servery.
This might be more useful than doing the complain here
They would cite UW Control preying on Shadow decks, and probably reason that now Grixis Shadow exists, therefore blue is just fine
The bomb in all of this is Sensei's Divining Top being banned, this says that no matter how huge of a pillar a deck is in a format, that it is never safe.
To be fair miracles deserved it. Splinter Twin was better than anything when it got banned but not by the massive margin that miracles has been in legacy for such a long time. My impression of the top ban is "what took you gugs so long to do something".
But seriously, I dont understand how people can act so entitled. The format is fine. Its working. People are having fun. I understand people like you are grumpy, but dont make it seem like you're quitting because the format sucks.
actually the format isn't fine in a couple ways colour balance, archtype balance. wizards is not doing anything about it because standard is the priority (they literally just said this) . But continue to look at the game with rose tinted glasses. I've been SELLING my cards, as if I'd give them away....
There's nothing entitled about wanting a better balanced game. If anything your the one who is coming off as entitled and arrogant. Then again coming from you it doesn't suprise me.
Im arrogant for saying the format is just fine, and we should just enjoy it for what it is? Ok!
Color balance. Again, nothing in the rules or promises says colors must be balanced in any format. MMORPGs cant even balance different player classes, and they can hotfix their games anytime they want. You think a card game that designs years ahead, can find balance in all colors in all formats?
Please.
Yes it is arrogant to think things are peachy when stats prove otherwise. But that's totally fine as long as you don't force your opinion on others.
My statement however isn't an opinion it's a fact= colour imbalance, archtype imbalance.
Yea some games are badly managed that's my point. Others have balance.
You have the bar set low. Good for you. I on the other hand think that a game where a deck is 1k each it should be a bit better managed . some Free games are better managed than modern and standard....
The format is fine, it could do a bt better with a SFM and a Preordain unban but its VERY GOOD as it is as well. Please do not make something that it is not, meaning a bad/problematic format.
I'm not making it anything. This is simply an observation.
"colour imbalance, archtype imbalance" | You take the "imbalances" here and conclude the format is unhealthy. I guess until we define what healthy actually means, we are both wrong and right.
Joe Lossett probably helped WOTC pull the trigger on the Sensei's Divining Top decision but being a visible figure in the Magic community helps. Just like how Gabriel Nassif 3 for 1's his opponent on Magic online with Condemn to wreck his Death's Shadow opponent.
Sigh. This isn't trolling, but a legitimate question: can we just sticky a thread for people to argue about twin separate from the banlist discussion? Over a year of the same. exact. arguments and statistics being thrown around by people who refuse to listen to or discuss the position of the other side. It is impossible to have a rational discussion in the banlist thread without the same 5 people hijacking the entirety of the thread to retread the same discussion.
If people are so pissed off about twin being discussed all the time then blame Wizards. (I didn't like twin and didn't play it. I tried it but it was more on the slow/controlly side of tempo while I was looking for something a little more prowessy)
We only have this discussion over and over because Wizards refuses to test for modern. Hire a team of 4-8 people and have them test these changes, or at the very least take into account the testing others like MN are doing. They are so ridiculously cryptic about everything they do and say it is impossible to hold them to any of it, especially when they can literally always say "well let's see how the new cards shake things up". When those new cards continue to be censor and kefnet the mindful level cards we already know it isn't going to shake a damn thing up.
The only thing we can really hold them to, and the ONE THING all of us should agree on is that they need to have a dedicated testing group for modern. I for one refuse to accept that they didn't have time to look at the format because they were considering other formats for 4 months straight. If they expect me to continue to buy new cards and shell out ridiculous tournament costs then they better show me my money is going to actually improving the game instead of lining some rich guys wallet.
Seriously, test for the format or just stop pretending to regulate it at all.
I just cannot believe their arrogance. "We don't have time for modern right now because other formats are more pressing." Well then I am sorry, I don't have any money for you because other games are better managed and their employees aren't cryptic arrogant a-holes.
I'm sorry if I seem so pissed off to you, I'm more frustrated than anything that it's the only conversation taking place for over a year. I get the anger from losing a deck to a ban or if you think it was a poor ban. If that's how you feel, take some time to discuss the pros and cons. It has clearly been talked about into the ground because as I said, we aren't getting any new talking points. There isn't a conversation happening, it's people talking AT each other. I just don't believe it's very conducive to the thread at this point.
Also, Wizards has done plenty to earn players' ire (including my own)over the years, but I'm not going to hold them responsible for hijacking a salvation thread for over a year.
Also, they dont see your money for the most part if you play Modern.
Someone who actually understands that just having a sucessful business does not mean that they have money to toss around. Making a testing team for modern would be exspensive and they can still mess up like how they missed Felidar Guardian in standard. Modern does not sell new product well.
Also, they dont see your money for the most part if you play Modern.
Someone who actually understands that just having a sucessful business means that they just have money to toss around. Making a testing team for modern would be exspensive and they can still mess up like how they missed Felidar Guardian in standard. Modern does not sell new product well.
Yes, which is why I also mentioned how much it would cost to make a team like that. It would make some players happier, but no net benefit to the company, financially. CFOs wont accept that.
I'm up for this. Tweeting AF each day to tell him SFM and Preordain are 100% ok to be unbanned at this point.
It is easier to convince a balance and design team to ban something than unban because it is easier to predict the results of taking something away over adding something. Most digital games balance in this way from other card games to video games like starcraft. I read some time ago that game designers sometimes purposely push stats on units, cards, chacters, or whatever to see how much to tone it down while buffing something or adding a new element to the game is something they rather not do. When it comes to physical card games you do not have the option to tone dlwn something or power it up you can just add a card or take a card away and usually taking a card away is easier to predict an outcome. The problem is that this pieces of cardboard have value and no matter what you do someone will lose money but unbannjng something to later reban it will be much more disastorous than just banning something.
I have voiced my opinion on Twitter but pestering Mr.Forsythe everyday will not help.
No probably not, but I'm sure if everyone did this between now and the next B&RA the public opinion part of his statement might be met.
Also gotta make a more positive change than moaning on here or tweeting that 'xyz sucks'
exactly what I said a couple Months ago. It was obvious then. But now it's super obvious they don't care about blue and white. They could have easily taken action and Probably been fine. But they are too busy with standard. Modern is going the way of the dodo bird, it may take 10 years but mark my words it will be the next legacy. These eternal formats just aren't a big priority. And that's not something I want to invest several grand into.
Can I have your cards?
But seriously, I dont understand how people can act so entitled. The format is fine. Its working. People are having fun. I understand people like you are grumpy, but dont make it seem like you're quitting because the format sucks.
actually the format isn't fine in a couple ways colour balance, archtype balance. wizards is not doing anything about it because standard is the priority (they literally just said this) . But continue to look at the game with rose tinted glasses. I've been SELLING my cards, as if I'd give them away....
There's nothing entitled about wanting a better balanced game. If anything your the one who is coming off as entitled and arrogant. Then again coming from you it doesn't suprise me.
Im arrogant for saying the format is just fine, and we should just enjoy it for what it is? Ok!
Color balance. Again, nothing in the rules or promises says colors must be balanced in any format. MMORPGs cant even balance different player classes, and they can hotfix their games anytime they want. You think a card game that designs years ahead, can find balance in all colors in all formats?
Please.
It is also something that is probably unachievable. If the aim of some posters is to lambast Wizards for not doing the impossible, then it will be difficult to have an interesting discussion.
I see quotes for Archetype balance being out of whack, but those stats lump mid-range and tempo strategies into the Aggro Archetype, which over-inflates those numbers.
People complain about color balance, but that's an impossibility for the most part. Legacy has one of the most healthy and interesting metagames there is, but color balance in Legacy is even worse than Modern!
That's not to say that Modern doesn't have issues and could stand to be better. But by all accounts - attendance is up, the format seems to be adapting to Death's Shadow, and archetype balance is trending towards better parity (even if it's not ideal). That suggests positive tweaks are needed; it does not indicate that the format is abysmal.
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I don't think "healthy" is the correct word. "Enjoyable" is probably what you are looking for, because I don't think Modern was ever "healthy" even during fake diversity of being killed on turn 3 by 3 completely different decks. I thought TC Delver/Birthing Pod was "enjoyable" but it definitely wasn't "healthy".
There's nothing entitled about wanting a better balanced game. If anything your the one who is coming off as entitled and arrogant. Then again coming from you it doesn't suprise me.
decks playing:
none
I read everything. You say subpar, but you basically mean unplayable. Because for many here, if its subpar, or not Tier 1, it is unplayable. I enjoy reading intent more than what you put on the screen.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Im arrogant for saying the format is just fine, and we should just enjoy it for what it is? Ok!
Color balance. Again, nothing in the rules or promises says colors must be balanced in any format. MMORPGs cant even balance different player classes, and they can hotfix their games anytime they want. You think a card game that designs years ahead, can find balance in all colors in all formats?
Please.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Yes it is arrogant to think things are peachy when stats prove otherwise. But that's totally fine as long as you don't force your opinion on others.
My statement however isn't an opinion it's a fact= colour imbalance, archtype imbalance.
Yea some games are badly managed that's my point. Others have balance.
You have the bar set low. Good for you. I on the other hand think that a game where a deck is 1k each it should be a bit better managed . some Free games are better managed than modern and standard....
decks playing:
none
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
There are SIMPLE things Wizards could try, but they refuse.
It's simple to look at Forsythes posts and tweets and make a few conclusions.
1. He actually thinks there is an issue with colour balance.
2. OR he is lying through his teeth and telling people what they want to hear.
Pick one.
We then have affirmation that bans took place to shake up the format, confirmed because they didn't have confidence in new sets doing anything.
We then have about a half dozen cards that have no need to be banned, but people defend Wizards because the format is fine to them.
Meanwhile, Wizards is so inept they cannot urban anything 'because other formats have issues'.
Excuse me, but WHO THE **** CARES.
I have no care, at all, not a single ***** to give, about the joke of a format that is standard. It may as well be limited, full of garbage that is a direct downgrade to what we have in Modern.
To have had what, four?, announcements and nothing come off for Blue and White is a farce. It's a joke, and I'm going to pack a bunch of my cards down to the LGS and sell.
If you're of the opinion that Wizards is doing right for the format, is doing the best they can, well I can't help your incorrect views.
Spirits
Would you please share your anger or complain to WOTC directly, via Email, Twitter, or servery.
This might be more useful than doing the complain here
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
To be fair miracles deserved it. Splinter Twin was better than anything when it got banned but not by the massive margin that miracles has been in legacy for such a long time. My impression of the top ban is "what took you gugs so long to do something".
Opinions are they are.
Facts are what they are.
I'll leave it at that.
decks playing:
none
There is a difference between health and balance.
Balance wise modern isn't looking great
Health wise it is completely subject to opinion
decks playing:
none
https://twitter.com/oarsman79/status/855656015328444416
https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/856590909349089281
Joe Lossett probably helped WOTC pull the trigger on the Sensei's Divining Top decision but being a visible figure in the Magic community helps. Just like how Gabriel Nassif 3 for 1's his opponent on Magic online with Condemn to wreck his Death's Shadow opponent.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
We only have this discussion over and over because Wizards refuses to test for modern. Hire a team of 4-8 people and have them test these changes, or at the very least take into account the testing others like MN are doing. They are so ridiculously cryptic about everything they do and say it is impossible to hold them to any of it, especially when they can literally always say "well let's see how the new cards shake things up". When those new cards continue to be censor and kefnet the mindful level cards we already know it isn't going to shake a damn thing up.
The only thing we can really hold them to, and the ONE THING all of us should agree on is that they need to have a dedicated testing group for modern. I for one refuse to accept that they didn't have time to look at the format because they were considering other formats for 4 months straight. If they expect me to continue to buy new cards and shell out ridiculous tournament costs then they better show me my money is going to actually improving the game instead of lining some rich guys wallet.
Seriously, test for the format or just stop pretending to regulate it at all.
I just cannot believe their arrogance. "We don't have time for modern right now because other formats are more pressing." Well then I am sorry, I don't have any money for you because other games are better managed and their employees aren't cryptic arrogant a-holes.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I have voiced my opinion on Twitter but pestering Mr.Forsythe everyday will not help.
Also, Wizards has done plenty to earn players' ire (including my own)over the years, but I'm not going to hold them responsible for hijacking a salvation thread for over a year.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
Someone who actually understands that just having a sucessful business does not mean that they have money to toss around. Making a testing team for modern would be exspensive and they can still mess up like how they missed Felidar Guardian in standard. Modern does not sell new product well.
Yes, which is why I also mentioned how much it would cost to make a team like that. It would make some players happier, but no net benefit to the company, financially. CFOs wont accept that.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
It is easier to convince a balance and design team to ban something than unban because it is easier to predict the results of taking something away over adding something. Most digital games balance in this way from other card games to video games like starcraft. I read some time ago that game designers sometimes purposely push stats on units, cards, chacters, or whatever to see how much to tone it down while buffing something or adding a new element to the game is something they rather not do. When it comes to physical card games you do not have the option to tone dlwn something or power it up you can just add a card or take a card away and usually taking a card away is easier to predict an outcome. The problem is that this pieces of cardboard have value and no matter what you do someone will lose money but unbannjng something to later reban it will be much more disastorous than just banning something.
No probably not, but I'm sure if everyone did this between now and the next B&RA the public opinion part of his statement might be met.
Also gotta make a more positive change than moaning on here or tweeting that 'xyz sucks'
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
It is also something that is probably unachievable. If the aim of some posters is to lambast Wizards for not doing the impossible, then it will be difficult to have an interesting discussion.
I see quotes for Archetype balance being out of whack, but those stats lump mid-range and tempo strategies into the Aggro Archetype, which over-inflates those numbers.
People complain about color balance, but that's an impossibility for the most part. Legacy has one of the most healthy and interesting metagames there is, but color balance in Legacy is even worse than Modern!
That's not to say that Modern doesn't have issues and could stand to be better. But by all accounts - attendance is up, the format seems to be adapting to Death's Shadow, and archetype balance is trending towards better parity (even if it's not ideal). That suggests positive tweaks are needed; it does not indicate that the format is abysmal.