Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Modern finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
There are also some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
Effective immediately, we are placing a suspension on discussion of Splinter Twin for two months. This will be lifted on September 18th. Until then, discussion of Splinter Twin in State of the Meta (and not anywhere else) will be a one-time warning, with any other offense being an infraction. Our reasoning for this is below.
I'm sure many of you want an explanation for why we decided to temporarily ban the discussion of Splinter Twin in State of the Meta. It was not an easy decision to make -- for perspective's sake, everyone on the Modern moderation team disagreed on what actions we should take, if any at all, based upon our observations. Saying the issue is complex is an understatement. As such, I will attempt to explain our reasoning and show what was happening to State of the Meta from the perspective of those who run it. This decision is not up for debate. This is not the place to make arguments for or against our decision. This is a final decision, and if you have questions or concerns please PM us. I understand that this may be a comically large post for such a subject, but there is a lot of information to cover, and I hope that this gives insight into what we see as moderators.
We have kept a close eye on State of the Meta for a long time, almost since its inception. As the thread grew, we noticed Twin was a recurring topic, and that it seemed to cycle in and out of the spotlight. This was frustrating to some users, but it always faded away, albeit temporarily. More recently, the moderation team noticed there is a multitude of users who are weary of Splinter Twin discussion. We saw it in their posts, and even a few who reached out to us via the report system. It was clear to us that State of the Meta was not a healthy home for discussion of all things Modern. It seemed as though giving the ability to discuss most things Modern related paradoxically created a space were very little could be discussed. After much thought and time, we (the Modern moderation team) arrived at the conclusion that we must ban the discussion of Splinter Twin in order to make State of the Meta the thread it needs to be. The major facts and observations behind this decision are as follows:
A) Splinter Twin was banned 20 months ago, and there is nothing to suggest that will change. No matter what the reasoning behind the ban was, there are no hints that point to it coming off the ban list.
B) The discussion frequently circles in on itself and never advances the thread. This is the biggest problem with Splinter Twin in State of the Meta. The fact of the matter is that Twin discussion always repeats the same points, be it why it should not have been banned, to the claim of it being the last interactive deck in Modern, to it being a police deck, to how Twin could've stopped boogeymen of the format like Dredge and Death's Shadow, to how Eldrazi Winter would never have happened, to how no deck is safe from being banned because Twin is evidence, and on and on. The moderation team discovered that nothing was ever accomplished in these discussions, and often devolved into flaming and trolling. Furthermore, non-Twin discussion was frequently shot down due to a statement such as "Twin could've stopped X", "Twin fixes Y problem", or even an off the cuff remark about Twin. State of the Meta had problems advancing past Twin, and it seems to have boiled over at this time. Users clearly do not want every conversation to devolve into Splinter Twin, and time has shown that this is the case in State of the Meta.
Now I must clarify a few concerns that may arise. Firstly, this decision was not made to alienate any user or group of users. We try to be as objective and unbiased as humanly possible, and sometimes we need to take actions that we do not like making. Understand now that we, by no means, are attempting to remove specific users from State of the Meta. All users who play Modern deserve a chance to speak their mind here. That said, in order to be objective, we must levy this rule because Splinter Twin disrupts all other discussion in this thread, and the claim that "all discussion devolves into Twin" has been made numerous times, and upon investigation we found it to hold water in a less hyperbolic sense.
Secondly, we are not neutering Twin discussion in order to shake up State of the Meta. This decision came from the issues it caused, despite the efforts by many users to move forward. While we may be restricting what can and cannot be discussed, we believe this will stop the constant cycle of Splinter Twin derailing other topics, thereby opening up the thread for more discussion.
Lastly, Splinter Twin will return to State of the Meta as soon as any relevant information about the ban is released. This includes an unban and anything official from Wizard's of the Coast that specifically discusses the ban (i.e., an article about why they banned Twin would be grounds for lifting the suspension, but a tangential mention or topic such as "Twin was banned, so players built X deck" or "Here's what happened to control/combo decks after Twin got the axe" is not exactly what we're looking for). Please, leave it to us to lift the discussion ban. If you think anything is relevant information that should be considered to lift the suspension, please PM us, the Modern mods. Do not go and bring it up here without us lifting the suspension first. In other words, we will decide what warrants our decision to be reversed, and anything that could potentially be deemed as such should be brought to our attention in order to do what is best for State of the Meta.
At this point, I feel the need to clarify what quantifies as Splinter Twin discussion. Keep in mind that we will use discretion when evaluating a report: ultimately, we decide what is and is not crossing this boundary. Posts about the following are considered to be "discussing Splinter Twin" A) Why the card was banned.
B) Why it should be unbanned/stay banned.
C) The problems Twin solved/created.
D) What Twin could have/could not have prevented.
E) What the deck was/was not
Again, we will use discretion when evaluating a post. We understand that this can create a grey area of the rules, something we strive to avoid, but it is the best way we can handle State of the Meta. Understand too that this does make Splinter Twin discussion in this thread, and I feel the need to stress this thread only, a warnable and infractable rules violation.
If there are any questions or concerns about this decision, please PM us. We are open to questions and will do our best to answer them. While we were not happy to make this decision, we hope it will make State of the Meta an overall better thread and better home for Modern discussion.
TLDR: We are removing Splinter Twin discussion in an effort to make State of the Meta open to other discussion, which Twin was consistently shooting down.
I don't think it's GDS that would prevent what you don't want from happening but hard UW control.
The only challenge I think remains is Shift and Eldrazi decks, everything else either has hate that is a huge block, or decks have natural game against.
There is still enough affinity and burn to fight those big mana decks that don't win faster, while the smaller decks are kept down by removal decks.
Snap/Bolt coming back into the meta in force, any UWR deck, will have a natural suppressing effect on Burn, Affinity, CoCo Combos, Elves and so on.
In short, if UW is the truth, we are at a cyclical meta.
I feel like for eldrazi decks we will be getting tools to fix this in the future. I don't think they are going to outright ban anything yet. They dealt with the most crucial piece after eldrazi winter. I think with wizards and their new 'we need to print answers not just threats' mentality that an awnser might be right around the corner to help fix this.
I think with wizards and their new 'we need to print answers not just threats' mentality that an awnser might be right around the corner to help fix this.
To be fair, they said this was supposed to start with Hour of Devastation...
We needed to be more vocal about what the threats are in order for that to happen @Ulka. otherwise, it is arbitrary to think that wizards will assess the threat level with how they design cards. I mean if eldrazi winter was a huge correction point for them we would have seen more attempted answers printed recently already. Im thinking the mentality shift is just them telling us what we want to hear to keep us enfranchised though, because impact in modern isnt exactly ruining sales. Though honestly a substantial supply modern quality cards per set (scars and kahns block) would sell boxes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I mean currently they have done decent at printing an answer in Hour of Devastation. solemnity is a step int he right direction for answers and with the reintroduction of core sets I feel we should be getting more answers or reprinted answers from past sets. At this point I have hope that wizards will follow their word on helping with the lack of answers so only time can tell.
I mean currently they have done decent at printing an answer in Hour of Devastation. solemnity is a step int he right direction for answers and with the reintroduction of core sets I feel we should be getting more answers or reprinted answers from past sets. At this point I have hope that wizards will follow their word on helping with the lack of answers so only time can tell.
I disagree. This is more of a combo-enabler than an "answer." What exactly does it "answer"? The now-totally-irrelevant Infect?
Wizards has a long way to go before we can reliably believe they are willing or capable of printing reasonable answer cards.
I mean currently they have done decent at printing an answer in Hour of Devastation. solemnity is a step int he right direction for answers and with the reintroduction of core sets I feel we should be getting more answers or reprinted answers from past sets. At this point I have hope that wizards will follow their word on helping with the lack of answers so only time can tell.
How does that answer anything, it's encouraging solitaire decks to be left alone while they have more time to dig for a win
Hour of Devastation was nothing great for modern, how it effects standard I have no clue since I don't follow it anymore
Solemnity hits Walking Ballista, one of the most important cards in ET. It also hits Devoted Druid/Archangel of Thune/Spike Feeder/Anafenza combos.
I can tell you I would never play a 3 mana enchantment solely to hose one creature out of Eldrazi, nor would I ever bring it in against a CoCo deck when it enables them infinite life with Kitchen Finks + sac outlet (or just a never-ending flurry of free attacks and lifegain with a Finks alone). Calling this thing an "answer" card is a huge stretch when it is so easily abused by several different combos (including Phyrexian Unlife too).
Solemnity hits Walking Ballista, one of the most important cards in ET. It also hits Devoted Druid/Archangel of Thune/Spike Feeder/Anafenza combos.
I can tell you I would never play a 3 mana enchantment solely to hose one creature out of Eldrazi, nor would I ever bring it in against a CoCo deck when it enables them infinite life with Kitchen Finks + sac outlet (or just a never-ending flurry of free attacks and lifegain with a Finks alone). Calling this thing an "answer" card is a huge stretch when it is so easily abused by several different combos (including Phyrexian Unlife too).
Not saying it's great, just that is does in fact hate on some things.
I think there are better hate cards like Stony Silence (Ballista) and Grafdigger's Cage (CoCo/Chord/etc).
I mean currently they have done decent at printing an answer in Hour of Devastation. solemnity is a step int he right direction for answers and with the reintroduction of core sets I feel we should be getting more answers or reprinted answers from past sets. At this point I have hope that wizards will follow their word on helping with the lack of answers so only time can tell.
How does that answer anything, it's encouraging solitaire decks to be left alone while they have more time to dig for a win
Hour of Devastation was nothing great for modern, how it effects standard I have no clue since I don't follow it anymore
Even one of the most exciting cards, the one that LSV thought would break GDS: Claim // Fame, is fairly bland and forgettable. That weird Gifts list was kind of cool, but is still incredibly weak to the same hate the deck always faces. The main weaknesses are GY hate, chump blockers, and Path to Exile. This card does nothing to address any of those.
As for the "answers" we got from Hour, they were more of the same over-costed, under-powered Standard fodder we've been getting for years.
[quote from="cfusionpm »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/780164-temporary-state-of-the-meta-thread-rules-update-7?comment=14"][quote from="The Ceaseless Hunger »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/780164-temporary-state-of-the-meta-thread-rules-update-7?comment=12"]Not saying it's great, just that is does in fact hate on some things.
I think there are better hate cards like Stony Silence (Ballista) and Grafdigger's Cage (CoCo/Chord/etc).
True. But with regards to Hour's supposed "boost" in answers, it was a massive swing-and-a-miss.
How do people feel about the idea of adding 7th edition to Modern? It would add Counterspell proper, but most of the rest of the cards at a quick glance already seem to be in the format. I don't know the set well, did I overlook something that would be too stupidly powerful? Any other cards that could really shake up the format?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Okay, I am going to do my "hope to get super flamed" post once again. I have to do one of these every once in a while. I hope you understand.
Green Sun's Zenith. I have talked to some about this card being on the banned list. Most players I talk to are not even upset about the consistency that it gives decks. They are upset about Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor. My question is this. What is the main issue that causes Green Sun's Zenith to remain banned? Is it...
1. GSZ into Dryad Arbor - Who cares? Noble Hierarch does that better and we also have a lot of potential mana dorks in Modern. Gaea's Cradle is not a thing, so there really is no way to abuse this. Are we that scared of 1 into 3 mana when another deck has done 2 into 7 mana since 2012?
2. Consistency - I hate this argument. Why do we forcefully want Modern to have a certain amount of variance?
3. Nobody cares - I hate this argument even more. If nobody cares and it won't make a difference, why not unban a harmless card? Nobody cares if Shock is banned. Should it be then?
4. Some other reason - I cannot imagine there's something else. It's a $5 card with plenty of reprints. If there's something I'm missing, please bring it up.
I feel like bringing up a card like Green Sun's Zenith because some of the other cards already have a lot of agreement. (I don't see the point in arguing Stoneforge Mystic, Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, TMS, or Preordain too much right now.) What do you think? Is Green Sun's Zenith that mythological monster that will warp the meta? Or is it just a forgotten card that Wizard's employees have not even muttered a word about in the past 4 years?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
2. Consistency - I hate this argument. Why do we forcefully want Modern to have a certain amount of variance?
Because Wizards has done just about everything in their power to reduce consistency as much as possible. They love watching huge, flashy, high-variance plays because it makes the game "exciting" and "great to watch." Look no further than the wheezingly mediocre cantrips like Preordain on the banned list and the kind of garbage they have printed the past... how many years?... to tell you exactly what Wizards feels about consistency.
Okay, I am going to do my "hope to get super flamed" post once again. I have to do one of these every once in a while. I hope you understand.
Green Sun's Zenith. I have talked to some about this card being on the banned list. Most players I talk to are not even upset about the consistency that it gives decks. They are upset about Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor. My question is this. What is the main issue that causes Green Sun's Zenith to remain banned? Is it...
1. GSZ into Dryad Arbor - Who cares? Noble Hierarch does that better and we also have a lot of potential mana dorks in Modern. Gaea's Cradle is not a thing, so there really is no way to abuse this. Are we that scared of 1 into 3 mana when another deck has done 2 into 7 mana since 2012?
2. Consistency - I hate this argument. Why do we forcefully want Modern to have a certain amount of variance?
3. Nobody cares - I hate this argument even more. If nobody cares and it won't make a difference, why not unban a harmless card? Nobody cares if Shock is banned. Should it be then?
4. Some other reason - I cannot imagine there's something else. It's a $5 card with plenty of reprints. If there's something I'm missing, please bring it up.
I feel like bringing up a card like Green Sun's Zenith because some of the other cards already have a lot of agreement. (I don't see the point in arguing Stoneforge Mystic, Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, TMS, or Preordain too much right now.) What do you think? Is Green Sun's Zenith that mythological monster that will warp the meta? Or is it just a forgotten card that Wizard's employees have not even muttered a word about in the past 4 years?
The issue with GSZ is the same issue with DRS in that it is just too effective at what it does early, late, and mid-game. Being able to get Dryad Arbor on t1 is a big part of making GSZ powerful and if that was all it did then it would just be a worse Noble Heiarch. But when you draw Noble on t5 it's not a good draw whereas drawing GSZ on t5 is great. On t1 GSZ is your best play and every turn after that you almost always want it. Personally I don't think it is actually too powerful for modern, but I can understand the thought on why wizards doesn't want it.
Okay, I am going to do my "hope to get super flamed" post once again. I have to do one of these every once in a while. I hope you understand.
Green Sun's Zenith. I have talked to some about this card being on the banned list. Most players I talk to are not even upset about the consistency that it gives decks. They are upset about Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor. My question is this. What is the main issue that causes Green Sun's Zenith to remain banned? Is it...
1. GSZ into Dryad Arbor - Who cares? Noble Hierarch does that better and we also have a lot of potential mana dorks in Modern. Gaea's Cradle is not a thing, so there really is no way to abuse this. Are we that scared of 1 into 3 mana when another deck has done 2 into 7 mana since 2012?
2. Consistency - I hate this argument. Why do we forcefully want Modern to have a certain amount of variance?
3. Nobody cares - I hate this argument even more. If nobody cares and it won't make a difference, why not unban a harmless card? Nobody cares if Shock is banned. Should it be then?
4. Some other reason - I cannot imagine there's something else. It's a $5 card with plenty of reprints. If there's something I'm missing, please bring it up.
I feel like bringing up a card like Green Sun's Zenith because some of the other cards already have a lot of agreement. (I don't see the point in arguing Stoneforge Mystic, Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, TMS, or Preordain too much right now.) What do you think? Is Green Sun's Zenith that mythological monster that will warp the meta? Or is it just a forgotten card that Wizard's employees have not even muttered a word about in the past 4 years?
I would be worried about Collected Company/Chord decks like Elves and Vizier-Druid getting very very good. Pure speculation on my part. I also think modern is in a great place right now. Unbans do bring a level of risk and there's something to be said of not wanting to mess up a good thing.
I wish I could find the original quote... I think it was from MaRo. If this is the kind of stuff they mean when they say "answers" I think we'll have a deeply depressing and long wait for relevant Modern answers.
As to GSZ, I think actually it would be fine, I'm pro unbans, so let that out with SFM and Preordain before going into other banned cards, and see what happens.
Some people at wizards want to keep consistent lines to a minimum, but there are ways to hate GSZ out, and again, a deck with 8 discards main, is a primary force in the meta.
If any of the UWR decks really take root, go ahead and search up a mana dork, it will die.
The issue with GSZ is the same issue with DRS in that it is just too effective at what it does early, late, and mid-game. Being able to get Dryad Arbor on t1 is a big part of making GSZ powerful and if that was all it did then it would just be a worse Noble Heiarch. But when you draw Noble on t5 it's not a good draw whereas drawing GSZ on t5 is great. On t1 GSZ is your best play and every turn after that you almost always want it. Personally I don't think it is actually too powerful for modern, but I can understand the thought on why wizards doesn't want it.
There is a real cost in paying an extra Green mana for the creature you want in a format that is super quick. Also there are times when you would rather it go to the graveyard than having to shuffle it back into your library when it has resolved.
I do agree that it is not too powerful for Modern right now, although despite the functional similarities between it and DRS, it should not be compared. DRS just does too much for too little. When you see DRS being played in Burn or being the best card in the Birthing Pod deck, it is a sign to the true power of the card (not to even mention, Ajundi or BG Tec Edge.dec).
I would be worried about Collected Company/Chord decks like Elves and Vizier-Druid getting very very good. Pure speculation on my part. I also think modern is in a great place right now. Unbans do bring a level of risk and there's something to be said of not wanting to mess up a good thing.
I don't think it would be too much of a problem. Company decks have to be very careful about what non creatures they play and I find it hard to imagine Path to Exile getting cut. It could see play over Chord of Calling potentially, but only getting Green creatures is a real cost (not to mention the Convoke.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I haven't seen a good argument for a GSZ unban ever, but FoodChainGoblins is probably right. I think it would see play in Elves for sure, and it would create some new archetypes, such as the aforementioned GW Midrange deck. The card opens up a lot of possibilities, and that's what I want to see in an unban.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Update from the 3/13/2017 B&R Announcement:
No changes
Next B&R Announcement:
April 24, 2017
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Skullclamp
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have or have not gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
March 2017 no changes
Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll are banned
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned.
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
Old threads:
3/13/2017 - 3/23/2017
12/8/2016 - 3/13/2017
9/28/2016 - 12/10/2016
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
1/9/17
3/23/2017
I'm sure many of you want an explanation for why we decided to temporarily ban the discussion of Splinter Twin in State of the Meta. It was not an easy decision to make -- for perspective's sake, everyone on the Modern moderation team disagreed on what actions we should take, if any at all, based upon our observations. Saying the issue is complex is an understatement. As such, I will attempt to explain our reasoning and show what was happening to State of the Meta from the perspective of those who run it. This decision is not up for debate. This is not the place to make arguments for or against our decision. This is a final decision, and if you have questions or concerns please PM us. I understand that this may be a comically large post for such a subject, but there is a lot of information to cover, and I hope that this gives insight into what we see as moderators.
We have kept a close eye on State of the Meta for a long time, almost since its inception. As the thread grew, we noticed Twin was a recurring topic, and that it seemed to cycle in and out of the spotlight. This was frustrating to some users, but it always faded away, albeit temporarily. More recently, the moderation team noticed there is a multitude of users who are weary of Splinter Twin discussion. We saw it in their posts, and even a few who reached out to us via the report system. It was clear to us that State of the Meta was not a healthy home for discussion of all things Modern. It seemed as though giving the ability to discuss most things Modern related paradoxically created a space were very little could be discussed. After much thought and time, we (the Modern moderation team) arrived at the conclusion that we must ban the discussion of Splinter Twin in order to make State of the Meta the thread it needs to be. The major facts and observations behind this decision are as follows:
A) Splinter Twin was banned 20 months ago, and there is nothing to suggest that will change. No matter what the reasoning behind the ban was, there are no hints that point to it coming off the ban list.
B) The discussion frequently circles in on itself and never advances the thread. This is the biggest problem with Splinter Twin in State of the Meta. The fact of the matter is that Twin discussion always repeats the same points, be it why it should not have been banned, to the claim of it being the last interactive deck in Modern, to it being a police deck, to how Twin could've stopped boogeymen of the format like Dredge and Death's Shadow, to how Eldrazi Winter would never have happened, to how no deck is safe from being banned because Twin is evidence, and on and on. The moderation team discovered that nothing was ever accomplished in these discussions, and often devolved into flaming and trolling. Furthermore, non-Twin discussion was frequently shot down due to a statement such as "Twin could've stopped X", "Twin fixes Y problem", or even an off the cuff remark about Twin. State of the Meta had problems advancing past Twin, and it seems to have boiled over at this time. Users clearly do not want every conversation to devolve into Splinter Twin, and time has shown that this is the case in State of the Meta.
Now I must clarify a few concerns that may arise. Firstly, this decision was not made to alienate any user or group of users. We try to be as objective and unbiased as humanly possible, and sometimes we need to take actions that we do not like making. Understand now that we, by no means, are attempting to remove specific users from State of the Meta. All users who play Modern deserve a chance to speak their mind here. That said, in order to be objective, we must levy this rule because Splinter Twin disrupts all other discussion in this thread, and the claim that "all discussion devolves into Twin" has been made numerous times, and upon investigation we found it to hold water in a less hyperbolic sense.
Secondly, we are not neutering Twin discussion in order to shake up State of the Meta. This decision came from the issues it caused, despite the efforts by many users to move forward. While we may be restricting what can and cannot be discussed, we believe this will stop the constant cycle of Splinter Twin derailing other topics, thereby opening up the thread for more discussion.
Lastly, Splinter Twin will return to State of the Meta as soon as any relevant information about the ban is released. This includes an unban and anything official from Wizard's of the Coast that specifically discusses the ban (i.e., an article about why they banned Twin would be grounds for lifting the suspension, but a tangential mention or topic such as "Twin was banned, so players built X deck" or "Here's what happened to control/combo decks after Twin got the axe" is not exactly what we're looking for). Please, leave it to us to lift the discussion ban. If you think anything is relevant information that should be considered to lift the suspension, please PM us, the Modern mods. Do not go and bring it up here without us lifting the suspension first. In other words, we will decide what warrants our decision to be reversed, and anything that could potentially be deemed as such should be brought to our attention in order to do what is best for State of the Meta.
At this point, I feel the need to clarify what quantifies as Splinter Twin discussion. Keep in mind that we will use discretion when evaluating a report: ultimately, we decide what is and is not crossing this boundary. Posts about the following are considered to be "discussing Splinter Twin"
A) Why the card was banned.
B) Why it should be unbanned/stay banned.
C) The problems Twin solved/created.
D) What Twin could have/could not have prevented.
E) What the deck was/was not
Again, we will use discretion when evaluating a post. We understand that this can create a grey area of the rules, something we strive to avoid, but it is the best way we can handle State of the Meta. Understand too that this does make Splinter Twin discussion in this thread, and I feel the need to stress this thread only, a warnable and infractable rules violation.
If there are any questions or concerns about this decision, please PM us. We are open to questions and will do our best to answer them. While we were not happy to make this decision, we hope it will make State of the Meta an overall better thread and better home for Modern discussion.
TLDR: We are removing Splinter Twin discussion in an effort to make State of the Meta open to other discussion, which Twin was consistently shooting down.
Banned for dubious reasons, and now discussion banned for the same!
I certainly can appreciate the effort at lining up with Wizards talking points though 'shaking up the meta thread' had my wife asking what's so funny.
Carry on my friends.
Warned for ignoring thread rules ~Lantern
Spirits
The only challenge I think remains is Shift and Eldrazi decks, everything else either has hate that is a huge block, or decks have natural game against.
There is still enough affinity and burn to fight those big mana decks that don't win faster, while the smaller decks are kept down by removal decks.
Snap/Bolt coming back into the meta in force, any UWR deck, will have a natural suppressing effect on Burn, Affinity, CoCo Combos, Elves and so on.
In short, if UW is the truth, we are at a cyclical meta.
Spirits
To be fair, they said this was supposed to start with Hour of Devastation...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I disagree. This is more of a combo-enabler than an "answer." What exactly does it "answer"? The now-totally-irrelevant Infect?
Wizards has a long way to go before we can reliably believe they are willing or capable of printing reasonable answer cards.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
How does that answer anything, it's encouraging solitaire decks to be left alone while they have more time to dig for a win
Hour of Devastation was nothing great for modern, how it effects standard I have no clue since I don't follow it anymore
I can tell you I would never play a 3 mana enchantment solely to hose one creature out of Eldrazi, nor would I ever bring it in against a CoCo deck when it enables them infinite life with Kitchen Finks + sac outlet (or just a never-ending flurry of free attacks and lifegain with a Finks alone). Calling this thing an "answer" card is a huge stretch when it is so easily abused by several different combos (including Phyrexian Unlife too).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Not saying it's great, just that is does in fact hate on some things.
I think there are better hate cards like Stony Silence (Ballista) and Grafdigger's Cage (CoCo/Chord/etc).
Even one of the most exciting cards, the one that LSV thought would break GDS: Claim // Fame, is fairly bland and forgettable. That weird Gifts list was kind of cool, but is still incredibly weak to the same hate the deck always faces. The main weaknesses are GY hate, chump blockers, and Path to Exile. This card does nothing to address any of those.
As for the "answers" we got from Hour, they were more of the same over-costed, under-powered Standard fodder we've been getting for years.
True. But with regards to Hour's supposed "boost" in answers, it was a massive swing-and-a-miss.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
How do people feel about the idea of adding 7th edition to Modern? It would add Counterspell proper, but most of the rest of the cards at a quick glance already seem to be in the format. I don't know the set well, did I overlook something that would be too stupidly powerful? Any other cards that could really shake up the format?
Green Sun's Zenith. I have talked to some about this card being on the banned list. Most players I talk to are not even upset about the consistency that it gives decks. They are upset about Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor. My question is this. What is the main issue that causes Green Sun's Zenith to remain banned? Is it...
1. GSZ into Dryad Arbor - Who cares? Noble Hierarch does that better and we also have a lot of potential mana dorks in Modern. Gaea's Cradle is not a thing, so there really is no way to abuse this. Are we that scared of 1 into 3 mana when another deck has done 2 into 7 mana since 2012?
2. Consistency - I hate this argument. Why do we forcefully want Modern to have a certain amount of variance?
3. Nobody cares - I hate this argument even more. If nobody cares and it won't make a difference, why not unban a harmless card? Nobody cares if Shock is banned. Should it be then?
4. Some other reason - I cannot imagine there's something else. It's a $5 card with plenty of reprints. If there's something I'm missing, please bring it up.
I feel like bringing up a card like Green Sun's Zenith because some of the other cards already have a lot of agreement. (I don't see the point in arguing Stoneforge Mystic, Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, TMS, or Preordain too much right now.) What do you think? Is Green Sun's Zenith that mythological monster that will warp the meta? Or is it just a forgotten card that Wizard's employees have not even muttered a word about in the past 4 years?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Something I was thinking as a tune my UWR mana, is UU would not be free.
In a deck that wants.
U or R or W turn 1.
Ux or WW or RW turn 2.
Ux or UUx or RRx turn 3.
WWUx or Ux + Ux or UUUx turn 4.
RRRxx turn 5.
Throw a hard UU into mix, and the tension in the decks mana is quite real.
I know people worry about CS, but the cost is meaningful in our format.
Spirits
Because Wizards has done just about everything in their power to reduce consistency as much as possible. They love watching huge, flashy, high-variance plays because it makes the game "exciting" and "great to watch." Look no further than the wheezingly mediocre cantrips like Preordain on the banned list and the kind of garbage they have printed the past... how many years?... to tell you exactly what Wizards feels about consistency.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The issue with GSZ is the same issue with DRS in that it is just too effective at what it does early, late, and mid-game. Being able to get Dryad Arbor on t1 is a big part of making GSZ powerful and if that was all it did then it would just be a worse Noble Heiarch. But when you draw Noble on t5 it's not a good draw whereas drawing GSZ on t5 is great. On t1 GSZ is your best play and every turn after that you almost always want it. Personally I don't think it is actually too powerful for modern, but I can understand the thought on why wizards doesn't want it.
I would be worried about Collected Company/Chord decks like Elves and Vizier-Druid getting very very good. Pure speculation on my part. I also think modern is in a great place right now. Unbans do bring a level of risk and there's something to be said of not wanting to mess up a good thing.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I wish I could find the original quote... I think it was from MaRo. If this is the kind of stuff they mean when they say "answers" I think we'll have a deeply depressing and long wait for relevant Modern answers.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Some people at wizards want to keep consistent lines to a minimum, but there are ways to hate GSZ out, and again, a deck with 8 discards main, is a primary force in the meta.
If any of the UWR decks really take root, go ahead and search up a mana dork, it will die.
Spirits
There is a real cost in paying an extra Green mana for the creature you want in a format that is super quick. Also there are times when you would rather it go to the graveyard than having to shuffle it back into your library when it has resolved.
I do agree that it is not too powerful for Modern right now, although despite the functional similarities between it and DRS, it should not be compared. DRS just does too much for too little. When you see DRS being played in Burn or being the best card in the Birthing Pod deck, it is a sign to the true power of the card (not to even mention, Ajundi or BG Tec Edge.dec).
I don't think it would be too much of a problem. Company decks have to be very careful about what non creatures they play and I find it hard to imagine Path to Exile getting cut. It could see play over Chord of Calling potentially, but only getting Green creatures is a real cost (not to mention the Convoke.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)