IMO, green sun's is likely too good for titanshift.
Its difficult to believe the deck would not play it (as basically every relevant creature they play is green).
It lets them hit dryad arbor, steve/wood elves, obstinate baloth/thragtusk/thrun/etc, prime time, woodfall primus, etc.
If any deck would break the card, its that one.
If it were unbanned along with several other cards (stoneforge, jace, preordain, BBE, etc) then its likely to be acceptable, but as it is, it feels incredibly strong to me. Like with pod, it only gets better with more good green creatures being printed. (The new crucible on a stick is an amazing singleton tutor target off the bat).
I will point out that jace does solve a weakpoint for some control decks, namely wincons.
While U/W/X has plenty of options (colonnades, a ton of good walkers, restoration angel, geist, queller, etc), black has tasigur and tarpit, but just straight u/r (blue moon, etc) has very few options for a real control deck.
You have delver, clique, kiki + exarch, pia and kiran, batterskull, keranos, etc, which are all moderately acceptable, but are significantly weaker than what other colors get access to. Whether or not jace is the appropriate answer to that problem is debatable, but there certainly is a hole.
Everyone is so scarred of gsz when we have far more broken,unfair and unfun stuff going on in modern, but everyone seems pretty dug in on their opinions so it's not really worth talking about. As for a realistic announcement is expect no changes or a card from death shadow to be banned and yes I am bored with modern
Everyone is so scarred of gsz when we have far more broken,unfair and unfun stuff going on in modern, but this everyone seems pretty dug in on their opinions so it's not really worth talking about. As for a realistic announcement is expect no changes or a card from death shadow to be banned and yes I am bored with modern
I'm just curious: what is boring about Modern right now? Virtually every color and archetype is competitive right now, with multiple options for each of those combinationa. There are EASILY 30ish decks which could T8 a major event. Maybe my experience on MTGO, the recent GP meta, and the recent SCG results aren't representative of your scene, but I still don't know what aspect of Modern is boring now. You can play basically anything and you have matchups across the spectrum.
Everyone is so scarred of gsz when we have far more broken,unfair and unfun stuff going on in modern, but this everyone seems pretty dug in on their opinions so it's not really worth talking about. As for a realistic announcement is expect no changes or a card from death shadow to be banned and yes I am bored with modern
I'm just curious: what is boring about Modern right now? Virtually every color and archetype is competitive right now, with multiple options for each of those combinationa. There are EASILY 30ish decks which could T8 a major event. Maybe my experience on MTGO, the recent GP meta, and the recent SCG results aren't representative of your scene, but I still don't know what aspect of Modern is boring now. You can play basically anything and you have matchups across the spectrum.
The decks I like just are not playable. I'm done getting invested in flavor of the month decks or decks that have little staying power. I dislike the amount of big mana in the format at the moment. I also just have a much higher bar for what magic I play. If I'm not satisfied with a format or magic in general I will just do something else. Let me put it this way why should I go through the stress, time, money and effort of learning another modern deck only to be matched up against storm, dredge and tron all day. I get that sounds pessimistic but it's happened and is a very real possibility for any modern event one goes to. i guess in short the decks i like are bad, the games are often unrewarding, and the meta to me could be much better
i guess in short the decks i like are bad, the games are often unrewarding, and the meta to me could be much better
That basically describes my thoughts on modern right now.
The meta's not in a terrible place right now, comparatively, but it still leaves a lot to be desired, IMO.
While many people feel differently, I feel that from the day after pod got banned to the day before eye of ugin was banned, modern got progressively worse every day. The eye banning helped somewhat, and the bloom ban was not completely wrong (I suspect it was on the way out, and would have had to be banned with eye if they skipped it the first time) but compared to "the glory days" the format simply produces less enjoyable games on the whole.
Not that the format was ever "perfect", however.
So many games against death's shadow, dredge, storm, tron, eldrazi, burn, and titanshift are simply not games that both players get to enjoy. The number of games where the person opposite a shadow deck gets their hand ripped apart and run over, or where the shadow player draws 2 creatures all game that meet a supreme verdict, and the games feel so massively unrewarding and time wasting to both players involve, is simply too high.
IMO, decks like affinity, jund, grixis, merfolk, twin, UWR, blue scapeshift, even infect when they didnt have probe on the critical turns, and even pod for the most part, produced games that were more interesting, and involved more participation for each player.
Many players dislike playing against lantern, but nearly every game I have against lantern is an interesting, back and forth game full of many, many meaningful decisions. Compared to basically anything playing eldrazi temple, which tends to boil down to a very small number of decisions (sometimes pretty much ending after both players have mulled or not).
The games felt like they were more decided on the choices the players made in the games, and less about the matchup lottery and about what you decided to put in your sideboard for that day.
Everyone is so scarred of gsz when we have far more broken,unfair and unfun stuff going on in modern, but this everyone seems pretty dug in on their opinions so it's not really worth talking about. As for a realistic announcement is expect no changes or a card from death shadow to be banned and yes I am bored with modern
I'm just curious: what is boring about Modern right now? Virtually every color and archetype is competitive right now, with multiple options for each of those combinationa. There are EASILY 30ish decks which could T8 a major event. Maybe my experience on MTGO, the recent GP meta, and the recent SCG results aren't representative of your scene, but I still don't know what aspect of Modern is boring now. You can play basically anything and you have matchups across the spectrum.
The decks I like just are not playable. I'm done getting invested in flavor of the month decks or decks that have little staying power. I dislike the amount of big mana in the format at the moment. I also just have a much higher bar for what magic I play. If I'm not satisfied with a format or magic in general I will just do something else. Let me put it this way why should I go through the stress, time, money and effort of learning another modern deck only to be matched up against storm, dredge and tron all day. I get that sounds pessimistic but it's happened and is a very real possibility for any modern event one goes to. i guess in short the decks i like are bad, the games are often unrewarding, and the meta to me could be much better
Yes, you don't like playing modern but you spend your time posting here---about modern.
Sounds like the format isn't for you, those nights of learning the ins and outs of a deck only to be faced against solitaire decks is going to happen; at that point its heavily important to know about the deck you're playing against, not just practicing your own deck.
Also, flavor of the month deck?
I'm looking on mtggoldfish, out of the top 14 decks I see, 9 of those have been around in the format for a while now
The newcomers are
Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Grixis death shadow, death shadow jund, lantern
Are you kidding me with flavor of the month decks? Grixis shadow and death shadow jund are basically just jund and grixis having a baby, they're very similar decks, although harder, but should be familiar.
Outside of shadow jund and grixis, Eldrazi Tron and Bant eldrazi are the fresh faces in modern
I really don't think modern is for you
I also don't understand why you're posting here on a regular basis now if you don't enjoy the format
Can you not afford staples so decks you like are not viable?
It's your right to post and where to spend your time with your hobbies, but spending time on a forum thats about a game (format) you don't like seems like a huge waste of time.
Everyone is so scarred of gsz when we have far more broken,unfair and unfun stuff going on in modern, but this everyone seems pretty dug in on their opinions so it's not really worth talking about. As for a realistic announcement is expect no changes or a card from death shadow to be banned and yes I am bored with modern
I'm just curious: what is boring about Modern right now? Virtually every color and archetype is competitive right now, with multiple options for each of those combinationa. There are EASILY 30ish decks which could T8 a major event. Maybe my experience on MTGO, the recent GP meta, and the recent SCG results aren't representative of your scene, but I still don't know what aspect of Modern is boring now. You can play basically anything and you have matchups across the spectrum.
The decks I like just are not playable. I'm done getting invested in flavor of the month decks or decks that have little staying power. I dislike the amount of big mana in the format at the moment. I also just have a much higher bar for what magic I play. If I'm not satisfied with a format or magic in general I will just do something else. Let me put it this way why should I go through the stress, time, money and effort of learning another modern deck only to be matched up against storm, dredge and tron all day. I get that sounds pessimistic but it's happened and is a very real possibility for any modern event one goes to. i guess in short the decks i like are bad, the games are often unrewarding, and the meta to me could be much better
Yes, you don't like playing modern but you spend your time posting here---about modern.
Sounds like the format isn't for you, those nights of learning the ins and outs of a deck only to be faced against solitaire decks is going to happen; at that point its heavily important to know about the deck you're playing against, not just practicing your own deck.
Also, flavor of the month deck?
I'm looking on mtggoldfish, out of the top 14 decks I see, 9 of those have been around in the format for a while now
The newcomers are
Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Grixis death shadow, death shadow jund, lantern
Are you kidding me with flavor of the month decks? Grixis shadow and death shadow jund are basically just jund and grixis having a baby, they're very similar decks, although harder, but should be familiar.
Outside of shadow jund and grixis, Eldrazi Tron and Bant eldrazi are the fresh faces in modern
I really don't think modern is for you
I also don't understand why you're posting here on a regular basis now if you don't enjoy the format
Can you not afford staples so decks you like are not viable?
It's your right to post and where to spend your time with your hobbies, but spending time on a forum thats about a game (format) you don't like seems like a huge waste of time.
Modern has been a huge part of my life for years and so has It's community. I have spent thousands on modern staples trying to find a few decks I would enjoy. I keep tabs on the format so I can tell if it's changing for the better. Im not sure why you are ranting about flavor of the month decks like you know which specific ones I was getting at. I guess I will just screw off so you all can have your echo chamber and shout DECK DIVERSITY AT eachother
I wish I could find the original quote... I think it was from MaRo. If this is the kind of stuff they mean when they say "answers" I think we'll have a deeply depressing and long wait for relevant Modern answers.
For sure! And guys, look how warping that one answer is. It's totally chased Tarmogoyf out of the format, decimated Jund as a deck, and has made big mana decks and combo decks the kings of the format. Do we really want more answers as powerful as Fatal Push?
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
I wish I could find the original quote... I think it was from MaRo. If this is the kind of stuff they mean when they say "answers" I think we'll have a deeply depressing and long wait for relevant Modern answers.
For sure! And guys, look how warping that one answer is. It's totally chased Tarmogoyf out of the format, decimated Jund as a deck, and has made big mana decks and combo decks the kings of the format. Do we really want more answers as powerful as Fatal Push?
Provided they're not skewed towards GB as they have been for the past 5 years, and might even involve some answers that deal with things on the stack? Sure, sign me up.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
If we want draw-go control to become a thing, we might need something along the lines of the following created or re-printed:
Opt
(instant speed cantrip that does some filtering is the key part here, the filtering could be after the draw, similar to Serum Visions if needed for balance reasons, the instant speed part is key though, so you can hold up the mana for something else, like counterspells or removal) Counterspell
(turn 2 flexibility that remains relevant in hand in the long game as a hard counter, another option would be an abrupt/smother counterspell which is basically the same, with only one drawback in only countering spells that are cmc 3 or less, although it needs to be at least 3, rather than cmc 2, the timing is key due to how it needs to interact with fast non-permanent based combos to serve control's role early game, and not having issues late game like Mana Leak or some of the bouncy type counters like Remand is also key, and it can't really afford to be counter density loss like Censor in late game because of how some decks and games play out) Force Spike
(this one is less necessary for UW, since they have Mana Tithe, but would potentially help even with that for early game mana flexibility if you want to play more basics or other stuff, or in other color combinations, like UB) Impulse
(Anticipate isn't quite good enough for modern, and this sort of thing is needed, I think, although not too much of it, it doesn't need to be this in specific, it could work with sufficient scry then draw one, just needs to be something good enough for Modern and better than Anticipate) Absorb
(Not really needed for Modern, nor would having it without also having something along the lines of counterspell itself or the abrupt counterspell help, but this or Undermine is about the only kinds of 3 cmc counters that would actually be able to make it main-board in Modern I can readily think of)
Fast DivinationU Instant
Draw two cards.
(The key here is 3 cmc, instant speed, drawing two, without too harsh of a drawback, and which works outside of esper, since Esper Charm is really deck design flexibility restrictive, locking you into those colors, it needs to be net card gain though, can't be discarding stuff afterwards or filtering instead to be worth the 3 cmc slot, and instant speed is needed so you can hold up mana for stuff)
Mirror ExchangeUW Instant
Exile target creature, it's controller creates a 2/4 blue and white spirit illusion creature token with flying and defender.
(Exact form of this isn't necessary, just a control friendly drawback instant speed creature removal, I thought giving the opponent a tough and flexible defender token would be a great drawback that would discourage it from being used in other decks and fit the capabilities of the colors in the color pie to be a flavor win on top of that)
Stalwart One2WWW Creature - Avatar Knight
Flash
Vigilance W: Stalwart One gains indestructible until end of turn. 4/3
Mysterious One2UUU Creature - Avatar Wizard
Mysterious One can't be countered.
Flying U: Mysterious One gains hexproof until end of turn. U: Mysterious One gets +1/-1 until end of turn. 1: Mysterious One gets -1/+1 until end of turn. 2/5
Absolute One2UUWW Creature - Avatar Cleric
Absolute One can't be countered.
Flash
Flying, Vigilance
: Exile Absolute One until end of turn.
If a spell or ability you don't control would cause you to discard Absolute One or exile it from your hand, you may put it on top of your library instead. 4/4
(none of the above three are really needed, there are already some pretty decent options out there for control finishers, they are more example/placeholders I came up with quickly in order to give a rough guide to some options control could use at CMCs and power levels and such Modern control could use. I also want to make clear that I think control finishers should be single cards, not paired cards like Nahiri+emrakul or stoneforge+batterskull (which leans towards combo and has potential density issues in relatively tight control lists that are already having to put in more lands than normal while still needing lots of answers and ways to draw stuff), and that you shouldn't have more than one of each, but should have at least a couple of them, in order to avoid issues involving stuff like Slaughter Games or Surgical Extraction)
Forced Oath Exchange1WU Sorcery
Exile target non-land permanent. It's owner creates a 2/4 blue and white knight creature token with defender, double-strike and reach.
If a spell or ability you don't control would cause you to discard Forced Oath Exchange, scry 3.
(the 3 cmc slot doesn't need instant speed as much, just the flexibility to remove non-land permanents lastingly, it doesn't need to be exile either, although it could use a benefit besides just removing a non-land permanent, I just thought using a similar mechanic to what I used above would better justify the UW coloration while avoiding the harsh issues that things like Detention Sphere have with the existence of Abrupt Decay in the format)
Gains of LawWWUU Instant
Draw three cards.
Gain 3 life.
(life-gain isn't needed here, just though it would be a nice, small-ish extra after giving this such a harsh mana cost setup, which I thought was needed for balance justification, as drawing 3 cards at instant speed for 4 cmc is extremely powerful, but control could really use the replenishment option at that stage, and things like Jace's Ingenuity and Concentrate clearly don't make the cut for Modern's power levels and needs with the timings of various decks and such)
Shine of Genius2UU Instant
Scry 3.
Draw two cards.
If a spell or ability you don't control would cause you to discard Shine of Genius, draw two cards.
(Glimmer of Genius doesn't quite seem to make the cut in Modern, but I think it could use something along those lines, so I thought scrying at least one deeper and some other kind of situational boon might work, as scrying 4 first seemed like it might be too powerful. I don't really like Fact or Fiction for a number of reasons, and would prefer something closer to the way GoG works, even if FoF would probably work in it's place for this role well enough)
---
Something roughly along the lines of the above I think would help stabalize UW control in the metagame, more options would be needed for other color combinations to add more diversity to control after that, including things like Undermine for UB control. I can even imagine some weirder setups that might allow for things like UR control or UG control or even mono-u control, although UB and/or UW and/or Esper and/or Jeskai seem like they should be the easiest to make work correctly and fairly with the way the color pie works for the draw-go-ish style of control.
We obviously already have cards like Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, Damnation, Cryptic Command, Esper Charm, certain planeswalker cards, certain man-lands, various other finisher options, etc. to play around with already. I just don't feel like the tool set is smooth and complete across cmcs enough for various metagame roles that make sense with the speed of the format to be long-term stable in a shifting metagame over time and with the nature of things like the turn 4 rule and the timings it implies and the role control is supposed to serve in the aggro vs. control. vs. combo cycle.
Spoilered to avoid distracting the thread with silly wish-listy kinda stuff that Modern doesn't truly need in the current meta situation, but could in theory need over time in order to maintain a stable long-term meta, depending on future meta shifts and printings. I felt like making a post along these lines was something I should do now that we're allowed to include both card designs and reprint requests in the metagame thread, even if I'm not entirely confident about the content and ideas.
You guys are nuts, GSZ is way too powerful and consistent, it's copies 5 through 8 of every creature in your deck, and at a minimum a 5 of in your deck
We already have a ton of people *****ing about black being "the best", it would just facilitate more crying about golgari colors
GSZ is a poorly designed card, I'm adamantly against that unban, the card would be stuffed into nearly every single green deck
WOTC hates consistentcy, you guys are nuts to think they'd allow it
Sounds like people are bored from a diverse meta to be discussing a GSZ unban
I don't think WOTC is interested in making green decks stronger considering how much well it's done in modern.
I'm not even sure they realistically unban anything this announcement, the only realistic looking one is BBE, and WOTC still seems terrified of that possibility.
I agree, GSZ is way too good. Card is totally busted. And it's another example of a card that would limit what they could print in the future (design-warping?) because they have to think about how GSZ would bust it.
Weird question - Is there a way we could make a consensus poll or something that sort of ranks the ban list?
A poll would not only be subjective, but predictions based on that would probably miss a bunch(like in the past). A much more helpful distinction would be:
Cards that directly fit into currently top tier decks - those stay banned
Cards that don't, while helping underplayed decks - those may have a chance
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
I think there is (and has been for some time) a fracture in this thread between players who desire an open format, and players who desire a more predictable format. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages but at the end of the day it boils down to whether you value a wide array of viable options (which in turn makes it harder to have guaranteed success with any one deck and increases variance in the format due to unpredictability of matchps) or, a more narrow list of viable top decks which gives players less options but creates a meta that has more certainty in the performance of the top dogs at any given time. The narrow environment does create more skill-testing decisions as the meta will fold around the top decks and wins will come down to lines of play more often rather than what cards you draw but the cost is that you have less options for players and a much higher barrier to entry if you want to be competitive.
I think WotC will ultimately base its decisions about the format around the diversity factor because it makes the format more widely appealing to players and that means more money. I think it's important to understand the difference in perspective that players have because there is a fundamental disconnect between players who want the pod/twin/delver style metas and those who are really happy with the current meta. WotC seems to be in the latter camp, but while one side is not inherently superior people who prefer the old way would be best served to realign their expectations because I can see only continued dissatisfaction and outrage as diversity continues to be favoured over low-variance/high skill by WotC in their decisions and announcements
"Flavor of the month" to me seems to mean new decks emerging and replacing old ones. That's literally how a format avoids going stale - a cyclical meta. I bought into Kiln Fiend combo last year, and the probe ban killed it. I was mad for about two hours, then I just took the manabase and card draw over to Grixis Delver. Then I sold about half of it to put the deposit on my new home, just in time to see that I could have just bought wraith and shadow to have one of the top tier decks (trust me, that stung). Now I have storm. I know WOTC hates storm, and as soon as a meta shift allows it to be one of the top decks it will be banned. That is fine with me, because I took on that risk.
Let's be clear. No matter how much you spent on a deck, let alone foiling it out, WOTC has no obligation to ban/unban to keep that deck at the top of the meta. When you buy a modern deck, it comes with some risk that a ban, unban, reprint, new card or metagame shift will occur at some point down the line which will render your deck either less competitive or even irrelevant. We all have our preferences, but there is something to be said of saying BBE needs to be unbanned because you want to play Jund. No single deck has a right to exist, let alone at tier 1.
I think there is (and has been for some time) a fracture in this thread between players who desire an open format, and players who desire a more predictable format. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages but at the end of the day it boils down to whether you value a wide array of viable options (which in turn makes it harder to have guaranteed success with any one deck and increases variance in the format due to unpredictability of matchps) or, a more narrow list of viable top decks which gives players less options but creates a meta that has more certainty in the performance of the top dogs at any given time. The narrow environment does create more skill-testing decisions as the meta will fold around the top decks and wins will come down to lines of play more often rather than what cards you draw but the cost is that you have less options for players and a much higher barrier to entry if you want to be competitive.
I think WotC will ultimately base its decisions about the format around the diversity factor because it makes the format more widely appealing to players and that means more money. I think it's important to understand the difference in perspective that players have because there is a fundamental disconnect between players who want the pod/twin/delver style metas and those who are really happy with the current meta. WotC seems to be in the latter camp, but while one side is not inherently superior people who prefer the old way would be best served to realign their expectations because I can see only continued dissatisfaction and outrage as diversity continues to be favoured over low-variance/high skill by WotC in their decisions and announcements
I agree that this is the problem. The main complainants in this thread (there are like, 3-5 of them) frequently circle back to issues like polarizing matchups, non-interactive opponents, matchup lottery, etc. But these "bugs" are actually merely features of a diverse metagame. If Wizards continues to enshrine diversity as their primary goal for Modern, these features will continue to be features of the format. I get annoyed at these complaints when we start to unpack them and figure out their underlying implications. People who don't like polarizing matchups secretly want decks that are 50/50+ against the format, and will only tolerate maybe 1-2 matchup in the 45/55 range (and even there, it better be closer to the 50 than the 45). Or they want dramatically reduced diversity so it is easier for them to metagame a deck that will answer everything, e.g. reducing the number of noninteractive decks with their own gameplan so SB slots are easier to fill. But this is really just another way of saying "I don't want bad matchups." Throughout Modern's history, Wizards has doubled-down on moving away from this metagame and players have largely been happy with that move. This is truer still after the Standard bans.
It really sounds like the format these complainants want to play is Legacy. Legacy has dramatically reduced competitive diversity relative to Modern, where almost all of the top decks are blue Brainstorm strategies with some exceptions like Lands, Elves, and D&T. That metagame has much lower diversity but a much tighter upper echelon, allowing for more interaction between all the blue Brainstorm decks (many of which are also FoW decks). Modern will never emulate that format and honestly, the only reason Legacy is that way is because Wizards has pulled away from the format and largely leaves it alone.
Future competitive Magic is never going to be like that again, at least not for the foreseeable future.
Let's be clear. No matter how much you spent on a deck, let alone foiling it out, WOTC has no obligation to ban/unban to keep that deck at the top of the meta. When you buy a modern deck, it comes with some risk that a ban, unban, reprint, new card or metagame shift will occur at some point down the line which will render your deck either less competitive or even irrelevant. We all have our preferences, but there is something to be said of saying BBE needs to be unbanned because you want to play Jund. No single deck has a right to exist, let alone at tier 1.
While the bold is unarguably true, I think its an unfortunate event when a deck dies. Thankfully that is hyper rare, as its not Probe that killed UR Prowess but Push that makes its life harder, but in an ideal world (to me) decks would never die. Fall out of favour with the public maybe, but every deck has someone that loves that deck, loves everything about it and wants to play nothing else.
Unless a deck is overwhelmingly good as to be unchallenged at the top (Eldrazi Winter) the goal should always be to allow it to exist, competitively if possible in the Tier 1-3 range.
Modern doesn't need to be like Legacy. It's okay to have the three eternal formats behave very differently from one another.
I agree. I'm firmly in the camp of high diversity and a meta that is difficult if not impossible to "solve" from week to week or month to month. Modern is super popular because it is so inclusive of different deck designs and strategies. People can play what they like.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Brainstorm itself nearly helps makes every blue deck play out consistently
Definitely some good in that, in that you're playing a game of less variance and more skill/decesion tree's.
When I'm not playing Jund, I pretty much accept nearly any deck I play will have some huge polarizing decks, I would just like to not have more than three 30/70 match ups for the popular matchups.
I am deeply ambivalent about this and somewhat worried. I hope some enterprising soul in this thread seeks out clarification on this major change from the powers that be. I'm really nervous this will lead to more shakeup bans.
Then again, this is a testament to Modern popularity. Go Modern!
Maybe if they made the core tournament games not 1 v 1 then that would allow for more diversity.
Being forced to play the meta or lose just isn't fun.
Welcome to the boards! I'm glad we still have new people signing up to comment and participate here. In my mind, metagaming is a skill in Magic just like anything else is. When Cedric noted that Affinity would be a good play at the Vegas GP when Dredge was everywhere at the SCG Open the week before, I was impressed with his reasoning. He turned out to be exactly right. Artifact hate was at a low ebb at GP Vegas and Affinity did really well. It takes a keen mind and a lot of experience to realize something like that, not to mention some guts to play a deck that was absolutely getting killed at the time. So while playing the meta might not be fun for you specifically, others greatly enjoy using their reason and intuition to gain an advantage at a tournament. That kind of payoff feels really good when you make it happen. Infraction issued for flaming -- CavalryWolfPack
Its difficult to believe the deck would not play it (as basically every relevant creature they play is green).
It lets them hit dryad arbor, steve/wood elves, obstinate baloth/thragtusk/thrun/etc, prime time, woodfall primus, etc.
If any deck would break the card, its that one.
If it were unbanned along with several other cards (stoneforge, jace, preordain, BBE, etc) then its likely to be acceptable, but as it is, it feels incredibly strong to me. Like with pod, it only gets better with more good green creatures being printed. (The new crucible on a stick is an amazing singleton tutor target off the bat).
I will point out that jace does solve a weakpoint for some control decks, namely wincons.
While U/W/X has plenty of options (colonnades, a ton of good walkers, restoration angel, geist, queller, etc), black has tasigur and tarpit, but just straight u/r (blue moon, etc) has very few options for a real control deck.
You have delver, clique, kiki + exarch, pia and kiran, batterskull, keranos, etc, which are all moderately acceptable, but are significantly weaker than what other colors get access to. Whether or not jace is the appropriate answer to that problem is debatable, but there certainly is a hole.
I'm just curious: what is boring about Modern right now? Virtually every color and archetype is competitive right now, with multiple options for each of those combinationa. There are EASILY 30ish decks which could T8 a major event. Maybe my experience on MTGO, the recent GP meta, and the recent SCG results aren't representative of your scene, but I still don't know what aspect of Modern is boring now. You can play basically anything and you have matchups across the spectrum.
The decks I like just are not playable. I'm done getting invested in flavor of the month decks or decks that have little staying power. I dislike the amount of big mana in the format at the moment. I also just have a much higher bar for what magic I play. If I'm not satisfied with a format or magic in general I will just do something else. Let me put it this way why should I go through the stress, time, money and effort of learning another modern deck only to be matched up against storm, dredge and tron all day. I get that sounds pessimistic but it's happened and is a very real possibility for any modern event one goes to. i guess in short the decks i like are bad, the games are often unrewarding, and the meta to me could be much better
That basically describes my thoughts on modern right now.
The meta's not in a terrible place right now, comparatively, but it still leaves a lot to be desired, IMO.
While many people feel differently, I feel that from the day after pod got banned to the day before eye of ugin was banned, modern got progressively worse every day. The eye banning helped somewhat, and the bloom ban was not completely wrong (I suspect it was on the way out, and would have had to be banned with eye if they skipped it the first time) but compared to "the glory days" the format simply produces less enjoyable games on the whole.
Not that the format was ever "perfect", however.
So many games against death's shadow, dredge, storm, tron, eldrazi, burn, and titanshift are simply not games that both players get to enjoy. The number of games where the person opposite a shadow deck gets their hand ripped apart and run over, or where the shadow player draws 2 creatures all game that meet a supreme verdict, and the games feel so massively unrewarding and time wasting to both players involve, is simply too high.
IMO, decks like affinity, jund, grixis, merfolk, twin, UWR, blue scapeshift, even infect when they didnt have probe on the critical turns, and even pod for the most part, produced games that were more interesting, and involved more participation for each player.
Many players dislike playing against lantern, but nearly every game I have against lantern is an interesting, back and forth game full of many, many meaningful decisions. Compared to basically anything playing eldrazi temple, which tends to boil down to a very small number of decisions (sometimes pretty much ending after both players have mulled or not).
The games felt like they were more decided on the choices the players made in the games, and less about the matchup lottery and about what you decided to put in your sideboard for that day.
Yes, you don't like playing modern but you spend your time posting here---about modern.
Sounds like the format isn't for you, those nights of learning the ins and outs of a deck only to be faced against solitaire decks is going to happen; at that point its heavily important to know about the deck you're playing against, not just practicing your own deck.
Also, flavor of the month deck?
I'm looking on mtggoldfish, out of the top 14 decks I see, 9 of those have been around in the format for a while now
The newcomers are
Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Grixis death shadow, death shadow jund, lantern
Are you kidding me with flavor of the month decks? Grixis shadow and death shadow jund are basically just jund and grixis having a baby, they're very similar decks, although harder, but should be familiar.
Outside of shadow jund and grixis, Eldrazi Tron and Bant eldrazi are the fresh faces in modern
I really don't think modern is for you
I also don't understand why you're posting here on a regular basis now if you don't enjoy the format
Can you not afford staples so decks you like are not viable?
It's your right to post and where to spend your time with your hobbies, but spending time on a forum thats about a game (format) you don't like seems like a huge waste of time.
Modern has been a huge part of my life for years and so has It's community. I have spent thousands on modern staples trying to find a few decks I would enjoy. I keep tabs on the format so I can tell if it's changing for the better. Im not sure why you are ranting about flavor of the month decks like you know which specific ones I was getting at. I guess I will just screw off so you all can have your echo chamber and shout DECK DIVERSITY AT eachother
For sure! And guys, look how warping that one answer is. It's totally chased Tarmogoyf out of the format, decimated Jund as a deck, and has made big mana decks and combo decks the kings of the format. Do we really want more answers as powerful as Fatal Push?
Provided they're not skewed towards GB as they have been for the past 5 years, and might even involve some answers that deal with things on the stack? Sure, sign me up.
Opt
(instant speed cantrip that does some filtering is the key part here, the filtering could be after the draw, similar to Serum Visions if needed for balance reasons, the instant speed part is key though, so you can hold up the mana for something else, like counterspells or removal)
Counterspell
(turn 2 flexibility that remains relevant in hand in the long game as a hard counter, another option would be an abrupt/smother counterspell which is basically the same, with only one drawback in only countering spells that are cmc 3 or less, although it needs to be at least 3, rather than cmc 2, the timing is key due to how it needs to interact with fast non-permanent based combos to serve control's role early game, and not having issues late game like Mana Leak or some of the bouncy type counters like Remand is also key, and it can't really afford to be counter density loss like Censor in late game because of how some decks and games play out)
Force Spike
(this one is less necessary for UW, since they have Mana Tithe, but would potentially help even with that for early game mana flexibility if you want to play more basics or other stuff, or in other color combinations, like UB)
Impulse
(Anticipate isn't quite good enough for modern, and this sort of thing is needed, I think, although not too much of it, it doesn't need to be this in specific, it could work with sufficient scry then draw one, just needs to be something good enough for Modern and better than Anticipate)
Absorb
(Not really needed for Modern, nor would having it without also having something along the lines of counterspell itself or the abrupt counterspell help, but this or Undermine is about the only kinds of 3 cmc counters that would actually be able to make it main-board in Modern I can readily think of)
Fast Divination U
Instant
Draw two cards.
(The key here is 3 cmc, instant speed, drawing two, without too harsh of a drawback, and which works outside of esper, since Esper Charm is really deck design flexibility restrictive, locking you into those colors, it needs to be net card gain though, can't be discarding stuff afterwards or filtering instead to be worth the 3 cmc slot, and instant speed is needed so you can hold up mana for stuff)
Mirror Exchange UW
Instant
Exile target creature, it's controller creates a 2/4 blue and white spirit illusion creature token with flying and defender.
(Exact form of this isn't necessary, just a control friendly drawback instant speed creature removal, I thought giving the opponent a tough and flexible defender token would be a great drawback that would discourage it from being used in other decks and fit the capabilities of the colors in the color pie to be a flavor win on top of that)
Stalwart One 2WWW
Creature - Avatar Knight
Flash
Vigilance
W: Stalwart One gains indestructible until end of turn.
4/3
Mysterious One 2UUU
Creature - Avatar Wizard
Mysterious One can't be countered.
Flying
U: Mysterious One gains hexproof until end of turn.
U: Mysterious One gets +1/-1 until end of turn.
1: Mysterious One gets -1/+1 until end of turn.
2/5
Absolute One 2UUWW
Creature - Avatar Cleric
Absolute One can't be countered.
Flash
Flying, Vigilance
: Exile Absolute One until end of turn.
If a spell or ability you don't control would cause you to discard Absolute One or exile it from your hand, you may put it on top of your library instead.
4/4
(none of the above three are really needed, there are already some pretty decent options out there for control finishers, they are more example/placeholders I came up with quickly in order to give a rough guide to some options control could use at CMCs and power levels and such Modern control could use. I also want to make clear that I think control finishers should be single cards, not paired cards like Nahiri+emrakul or stoneforge+batterskull (which leans towards combo and has potential density issues in relatively tight control lists that are already having to put in more lands than normal while still needing lots of answers and ways to draw stuff), and that you shouldn't have more than one of each, but should have at least a couple of them, in order to avoid issues involving stuff like Slaughter Games or Surgical Extraction)
Forced Oath Exchange 1WU
Sorcery
Exile target non-land permanent. It's owner creates a 2/4 blue and white knight creature token with defender, double-strike and reach.
If a spell or ability you don't control would cause you to discard Forced Oath Exchange, scry 3.
(the 3 cmc slot doesn't need instant speed as much, just the flexibility to remove non-land permanents lastingly, it doesn't need to be exile either, although it could use a benefit besides just removing a non-land permanent, I just thought using a similar mechanic to what I used above would better justify the UW coloration while avoiding the harsh issues that things like Detention Sphere have with the existence of Abrupt Decay in the format)
Gains of Law WWUU
Instant
Draw three cards.
Gain 3 life.
(life-gain isn't needed here, just though it would be a nice, small-ish extra after giving this such a harsh mana cost setup, which I thought was needed for balance justification, as drawing 3 cards at instant speed for 4 cmc is extremely powerful, but control could really use the replenishment option at that stage, and things like Jace's Ingenuity and Concentrate clearly don't make the cut for Modern's power levels and needs with the timings of various decks and such)
Shine of Genius 2UU
Instant
Scry 3.
Draw two cards.
If a spell or ability you don't control would cause you to discard Shine of Genius, draw two cards.
(Glimmer of Genius doesn't quite seem to make the cut in Modern, but I think it could use something along those lines, so I thought scrying at least one deeper and some other kind of situational boon might work, as scrying 4 first seemed like it might be too powerful. I don't really like Fact or Fiction for a number of reasons, and would prefer something closer to the way GoG works, even if FoF would probably work in it's place for this role well enough)
---
Something roughly along the lines of the above I think would help stabalize UW control in the metagame, more options would be needed for other color combinations to add more diversity to control after that, including things like Undermine for UB control. I can even imagine some weirder setups that might allow for things like UR control or UG control or even mono-u control, although UB and/or UW and/or Esper and/or Jeskai seem like they should be the easiest to make work correctly and fairly with the way the color pie works for the draw-go-ish style of control.
We obviously already have cards like Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, Damnation, Cryptic Command,
Esper Charm, certain planeswalker cards, certain man-lands, various other finisher options, etc. to play around with already. I just don't feel like the tool set is smooth and complete across cmcs enough for various metagame roles that make sense with the speed of the format to be long-term stable in a shifting metagame over time and with the nature of things like the turn 4 rule and the timings it implies and the role control is supposed to serve in the aggro vs. control. vs. combo cycle.
Spoilered to avoid distracting the thread with silly wish-listy kinda stuff that Modern doesn't truly need in the current meta situation, but could in theory need over time in order to maintain a stable long-term meta, depending on future meta shifts and printings. I felt like making a post along these lines was something I should do now that we're allowed to include both card designs and reprint requests in the metagame thread, even if I'm not entirely confident about the content and ideas.
There are a few cards that are never ever in a million years coming off - Skullclamp
Cards that are borderline if you like a high power level format - Green Sun's Zenith & Dig Through Time
Cards that are borderline but still lower power level - Preordain & Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Cards that are pretty close to consensus shouldn't be banned - Stoneforge Mystic & Bloodbraid Elf
I feel like this is something separate from the 'what would you like unbanned' poll that it's worth doing. (I don't have any idea how to do it though)
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
I agree, GSZ is way too good. Card is totally busted. And it's another example of a card that would limit what they could print in the future (design-warping?) because they have to think about how GSZ would bust it.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
I think WotC will ultimately base its decisions about the format around the diversity factor because it makes the format more widely appealing to players and that means more money. I think it's important to understand the difference in perspective that players have because there is a fundamental disconnect between players who want the pod/twin/delver style metas and those who are really happy with the current meta. WotC seems to be in the latter camp, but while one side is not inherently superior people who prefer the old way would be best served to realign their expectations because I can see only continued dissatisfaction and outrage as diversity continues to be favoured over low-variance/high skill by WotC in their decisions and announcements
U Merfolk
UB Tezzerator
UB Mill
Let's be clear. No matter how much you spent on a deck, let alone foiling it out, WOTC has no obligation to ban/unban to keep that deck at the top of the meta. When you buy a modern deck, it comes with some risk that a ban, unban, reprint, new card or metagame shift will occur at some point down the line which will render your deck either less competitive or even irrelevant. We all have our preferences, but there is something to be said of saying BBE needs to be unbanned because you want to play Jund. No single deck has a right to exist, let alone at tier 1.
I agree that this is the problem. The main complainants in this thread (there are like, 3-5 of them) frequently circle back to issues like polarizing matchups, non-interactive opponents, matchup lottery, etc. But these "bugs" are actually merely features of a diverse metagame. If Wizards continues to enshrine diversity as their primary goal for Modern, these features will continue to be features of the format. I get annoyed at these complaints when we start to unpack them and figure out their underlying implications. People who don't like polarizing matchups secretly want decks that are 50/50+ against the format, and will only tolerate maybe 1-2 matchup in the 45/55 range (and even there, it better be closer to the 50 than the 45). Or they want dramatically reduced diversity so it is easier for them to metagame a deck that will answer everything, e.g. reducing the number of noninteractive decks with their own gameplan so SB slots are easier to fill. But this is really just another way of saying "I don't want bad matchups." Throughout Modern's history, Wizards has doubled-down on moving away from this metagame and players have largely been happy with that move. This is truer still after the Standard bans.
It really sounds like the format these complainants want to play is Legacy. Legacy has dramatically reduced competitive diversity relative to Modern, where almost all of the top decks are blue Brainstorm strategies with some exceptions like Lands, Elves, and D&T. That metagame has much lower diversity but a much tighter upper echelon, allowing for more interaction between all the blue Brainstorm decks (many of which are also FoW decks). Modern will never emulate that format and honestly, the only reason Legacy is that way is because Wizards has pulled away from the format and largely leaves it alone.
Future competitive Magic is never going to be like that again, at least not for the foreseeable future.
While the bold is unarguably true, I think its an unfortunate event when a deck dies. Thankfully that is hyper rare, as its not Probe that killed UR Prowess but Push that makes its life harder, but in an ideal world (to me) decks would never die. Fall out of favour with the public maybe, but every deck has someone that loves that deck, loves everything about it and wants to play nothing else.
Unless a deck is overwhelmingly good as to be unchallenged at the top (Eldrazi Winter) the goal should always be to allow it to exist, competitively if possible in the Tier 1-3 range.
Spirits
I agree. I'm firmly in the camp of high diversity and a meta that is difficult if not impossible to "solve" from week to week or month to month. Modern is super popular because it is so inclusive of different deck designs and strategies. People can play what they like.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Being forced to play the meta or lose just isn't fun.
Definitely some good in that, in that you're playing a game of less variance and more skill/decesion tree's.
When I'm not playing Jund, I pretty much accept nearly any deck I play will have some huge polarizing decks, I would just like to not have more than three 30/70 match ups for the popular matchups.
THE MODERN PRO TOUR IS BACK.
I am deeply ambivalent about this and somewhat worried. I hope some enterprising soul in this thread seeks out clarification on this major change from the powers that be. I'm really nervous this will lead to more shakeup bans.
Then again, this is a testament to Modern popularity. Go Modern!
That's---literally how every competitive game works, bud.
Whether it's FPS console games, fighting games, card games, there's a tier system; people tend to gravitate towards what wins.
I wrote that specifically hoping you'd take the bait. LOLz
Welcome to the boards! I'm glad we still have new people signing up to comment and participate here. In my mind, metagaming is a skill in Magic just like anything else is. When Cedric noted that Affinity would be a good play at the Vegas GP when Dredge was everywhere at the SCG Open the week before, I was impressed with his reasoning. He turned out to be exactly right. Artifact hate was at a low ebb at GP Vegas and Affinity did really well. It takes a keen mind and a lot of experience to realize something like that, not to mention some guts to play a deck that was absolutely getting killed at the time. So while playing the meta might not be fun for you specifically, others greatly enjoy using their reason and intuition to gain an advantage at a tournament. That kind of payoff feels really good when you make it happen.
Infraction issued for flaming -- CavalryWolfPack