As a small note, while your listed reason for not unbanning Second Sunrise might be valid to some extent, the WotC reason it ceased to exist in the format was its enabling of Eggs and its 20-minute turns.
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Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
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As a small note, while your listed reason for not unbanning Second Sunrise might be valid to some extent, the WotC reason it ceased to exist in the format was its enabling of Eggs and its 20-minute turns.
Don't forget the time that Brian Kibler wrote F6 on a slip of paper, went and got a hotdog, ate it, and came back (while having a judge watch to make sure his opponent didn't break any rules) and the Eggs player was STILL not done comboing off. Legendary status clip there.
Just so we're clear, it's totally OK to rehash the same old and tired arguments for any card on the banned list, including Jace, SFM, and BBE, despite there being really nothing new, no new insight, no new revelations on anything. But discussion on Twin can't happen because..... people don't like hearing old and tired arguments that offer nothing new, no new insight, and no new revelations on anything? I'm confused here. These last pages of discussion on SFM have been essentially identical to every other time SFM has come up... pretty much ever. Why is that allowed? We should just ban that too.
It's because for 2 years, you have written about the subject almost obsessively, to the point that it almost looks like borderline trolling. This restriction was practically enforced because of you. The subject of it was fine, you constantly and non-stop take it too far too often.
It's not the subject of Twin, its you
Does that answer your question, or will you post ten more posts about why your freedom of speech is being restricted?
So it wasn't because certain individuals were actively poking the hornets nest by posting blatantly slanted and biased information in order to generate controversy? Such as Ashton with his banlist article (which started the entire recent Twin discussion in the first place)? Or several other posters making equally strange claims that are easily refuted? I mean I know we live in the age of selective information (lol fake mews), but it seems pretty unfair complain about bias on one side while ignoring instigating bias on the other.
He's probably thinking the card would fit into the Titanshift/Spaceshift combo. Would require 5 mountains in play, plus Valakut, but it could turn 4 mountains in hand into 12 damage... Still would take a serious amount of control and card advantage to do this.
The reason it's banned is more broken with the hive mind/pact combo which I don't think the poster is aware of.
You can only run so many delve cards. Tasigur and Angler can be difficult to cast in multiples already, and sometimes impossible through graveyard hate. Adding DTT means something has to give.
I'd cut Anglers in a heartbeat for DTT in GDS. Just saying.
Punishing Fire is too punishing (snicker) against creature decks. It being legal would probably kill Elves, CoCo decks, Zoo, Merfolk, etc.
How in the world would Punishing Fire kill Zoo when its creatures generally have toughness higher than 2? Heck, Zoo was the best deck--by far--during the time period after the initial bans and before the Punishing Fire ban. Incidentally, Affinity was Tier 1 during that time period.
The other decks it might hurt more, but I do wonder. It is true that Elves and Merfolk weren't a thing while Punishing Fire was in the format (Collected Company wasn't a thing, but that's because the card didn't exist yet--though Birthing Pod, its predecessor, was a real deck), but they weren't a thing after it got banned either--they got good because they received cards to power them up years after the fact. It's thus questionable as to whether Punishing Fire would actually kill those decks. It can only take out one creature at a time, and while it's true Punishing Fire can be used repeatedly over time, by that time it'd seem like you already won the game against them.
Punishing Fire seems most punishing to tempo decks, which are admittedly already a struggling archetype.
You can only run so many delve cards. Tasigur and Angler can be difficult to cast in multiples already, and sometimes impossible through graveyard hate. Adding DTT means something has to give.
I'd cut Anglers in a heartbeat for DTT in GDS. Just saying.
I probably would too, but the deck is super threat light as it is (which is why it has fallen so hard). Losing Angler means even more susceptibility to removal and Surgical Extraction, not to mention simple blockers. The deck has no backup "tempo" plan. Since it kills itself so quickly, it also means others can kill THEM before chipshot damage can usually get there. In GDS, Angler kills opponents, while DTT finds you.... something?
Yeah, if DTT would break something, it wouldn't be GDS. I think the old U/R Delver would try to make use of this, but the meta has shifted quite a bit from when it was at its peak.
I'm not sure what deck this would break, but if decks are willing to play a one mana spell to dig 3 deep and get one card, digging 7 for 2 cards at "two" mana is even better.
The only thing I can really see DTT breaking would be Scapeshift or possibly some kind of Grixis Goryo's Vengeance-style deck. It would be really freakin' good in blue control, as we all saw in Standard, but I don't think it would break it by itself. Maybe DTT and Jace combined would break control, though.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
As a UR Breach player, I can honestly say I would LOVE to **** people up with DTT!!! Very early on in testing everyone makes the realization that the deck's consistency would get a huge boost which is all it really needs to be competitive. Then again, it could just get played somewhere else or in a better shell. Who knows, but at instant speed DTT into Breach/Emmy (whichever youre missing, or both, or that anger/snap/cryptic you've been hoping to hit) seems perfect especially considering its more or less modelled after Twin.
As a UR Breach player, I can honestly say I would LOVE to **** people up with DTT!!! Very early on in testing everyone makes the realization that the deck's consistency would get a huge boost which is all it really needs to be competitive. Then again, it could just get played somewhere else or in a better shell. Who knows, but at instant speed DTT into Breach/Emmy (whichever youre missing, or both, or that anger/snap/cryptic you've been hoping to hit) seems perfect especially considering its more or less modelled after Twin.
If people played twin or scapeshift during that time they'd realized how insanely good DTT is. I could be wrong, but I don't think DTT would prop up delver to the extreme that treasure cruise did meaning the format would look similar to legacy after the treasure cruise ban where we'd probably have a delver like deck, combo control decks, a fair deck of some sort (like grixis thieves during dtt era) and maybe a few other aggressive decks that clock quick enough. As much fun as delver was then I don't think that meta was healthy.
Jumping a bit on the things that are banned/good/bad in Legacy and their relation to modern. Jon Goss, the guy who won the Legacy open past weekend with Esper Deathblade, during his interview talked briefly about the role of SFM in Legacy and his deck. He said, more or less, that he thinks SFM is not very good in Legacy and, in fact, it might even be bad. The main reason he was running SFM is because of TNN since having a batterskulled TNN or a Jitted TNN is just broken.
Now, in modern we don't really have any TNN like creatures to exploit SFM in that way. I am fine with DnT getting SFM since it is a nice deck to have in the format in general (even though it frustrates me to the ground). It plays interactive, disruptive, creature based magic. Yes it would probably be pushed to T1,5 if not T1 but still, that's not bad.
I think SFM being pretty mediocre in Legacy, where speed matters, is an indication of SFM being at least not amazing in Modern. DnT in modern is way less good than Legacy and, on the other hand, we have no FoW to create an esper deathblade type of deck which can play a selfprotected threat AND keep up free counters.
I completely understand the fears anyone has regarding SFM in modern if they played it in standard. It was an absolute terror there. But you have to acknowledge how much of a different beast modern is and how many cards have come out since then.
I somewhat understand concern from those seeing it in legacy, too. But like Ym1r said, I think SFM is propped up a lot in legacy due to the other cards that exploit or protect it. Legacy has Mother of Runes, true-name nemesis, and better equipment than modern can ever expect to get in umezawa's jitte. Not to mention benefiting from being played in a format that uses significantly less removal than modern. SFM itself in legacy is a workaround to an issue that modern doesn't have: a way to get past (free)counterspells.
Meanwhile, there is still a very real deckbuilding constriction in playing SFM in modern. Any current decks wanting to run it needs to trim at least 6 cards from their builds to play it reliably. D&T needs to seriously re-think their deck or suffer from leonin arbiter-related mishaps. Otherwise, it just provides a more reliable win-con to white decks that is still VERY much interact-able. I'm not saying the card isn't powerful, it is. But I feel as if people are putting too much weight on the strength it showed in standard and a very different legacy environment.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Wouldn't affinity play SFM? Search for Plating seems rather broken.
There have been numerous occasions where people have tried steelshaper's gift. It's more efficient than SFM in the deck and affinity doesn't care enough about the "put directly into play" clause given how quickly they can empty their hand regardless.
Well, it does carry some proactive disruption. And funny enough it beat out Blue Moon (runner-up!) which runs Blood moon which some people thought it would shut down.
Other decks from that SCG:
3-4: Etron, Storm
5-8: Etron, Affinity, Infect, UWr Midrange (and the title is accurate.)
Wouldn't affinity play SFM? Search for Plating seems rather broken.
Um... no, Affinity has virtually no chance of running Stoneforge Mystic. Stoneforge Mystic's body is negligible in Affinity, and its tap ability is largely irrelevant (paying 2 mana to put a 2-mana equipment into play is not that impressive). All it's really good for is the tutor effect. And if Afifnity isn't playing Steelshaper's Gift, which gives that tutor effect for 1 less mana, why would they play Stoneforge Mystic?
In most decks, Stoneforge Mystic is superior to Steelshaper's Gift, but Affinity is the opposite and the better card is already in the format and not being played by the deck.
As a small note, while your listed reason for not unbanning Second Sunrise might be valid to some extent, the WotC reason it ceased to exist in the format was its enabling of Eggs and its 20-minute turns.
Don't forget the time that Brian Kibler wrote F6 on a slip of paper, went and got a hotdog, ate it, and came back (while having a judge watch to make sure his opponent didn't break any rules) and the Eggs player was STILL not done comboing off. Legendary status clip there.
As a small note, while your listed reason for not unbanning Second Sunrise might be valid to some extent, the WotC reason it ceased to exist in the format was its enabling of Eggs and its 20-minute turns.
Don't forget the time that Brian Kibler wrote F6 on a slip of paper, went and got a hotdog, ate it, and came back (while having a judge watch to make sure his opponent didn't break any rules) and the Eggs player was STILL not done comboing off. Legendary status clip there.
Haha that was phenomenal; thanks for sharing. Can't believe I never saw it sooner.
To be fair, eggs wincon has adjusted a lot since then and would no longer take that long. That being said, Modern Eggs doesn't need yet another piece. Last thing we need is another tier 1 non interactive combo deck.
KCI Eggs in its current iteration is a deck that I think is a lot better than most people realize. Its main problem is that a ton of artifact and grave hate are rampant in the format.
Anyone who's sat across from an Eggs players knows why Second Sunrise is a really bad idea in Modern.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Don't forget the time that Brian Kibler wrote F6 on a slip of paper, went and got a hotdog, ate it, and came back (while having a judge watch to make sure his opponent didn't break any rules) and the Eggs player was STILL not done comboing off. Legendary status clip there.
Edit: Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPM2d1q3-Gc
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
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UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
The reason it's banned is more broken with the hive mind/pact combo which I don't think the poster is aware of.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
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I'd cut Anglers in a heartbeat for DTT in GDS. Just saying.
The other decks it might hurt more, but I do wonder. It is true that Elves and Merfolk weren't a thing while Punishing Fire was in the format (Collected Company wasn't a thing, but that's because the card didn't exist yet--though Birthing Pod, its predecessor, was a real deck), but they weren't a thing after it got banned either--they got good because they received cards to power them up years after the fact. It's thus questionable as to whether Punishing Fire would actually kill those decks. It can only take out one creature at a time, and while it's true Punishing Fire can be used repeatedly over time, by that time it'd seem like you already won the game against them.
Punishing Fire seems most punishing to tempo decks, which are admittedly already a struggling archetype.
I probably would too, but the deck is super threat light as it is (which is why it has fallen so hard). Losing Angler means even more susceptibility to removal and Surgical Extraction, not to mention simple blockers. The deck has no backup "tempo" plan. Since it kills itself so quickly, it also means others can kill THEM before chipshot damage can usually get there. In GDS, Angler kills opponents, while DTT finds you.... something?
Edit: Very very interesting read just popped up on Goldfish: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/understanding-the-modern-banned-list
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'm not sure what deck this would break, but if decks are willing to play a one mana spell to dig 3 deep and get one card, digging 7 for 2 cards at "two" mana is even better.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
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UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
If people played twin or scapeshift during that time they'd realized how insanely good DTT is. I could be wrong, but I don't think DTT would prop up delver to the extreme that treasure cruise did meaning the format would look similar to legacy after the treasure cruise ban where we'd probably have a delver like deck, combo control decks, a fair deck of some sort (like grixis thieves during dtt era) and maybe a few other aggressive decks that clock quick enough. As much fun as delver was then I don't think that meta was healthy.
Now, in modern we don't really have any TNN like creatures to exploit SFM in that way. I am fine with DnT getting SFM since it is a nice deck to have in the format in general (even though it frustrates me to the ground). It plays interactive, disruptive, creature based magic. Yes it would probably be pushed to T1,5 if not T1 but still, that's not bad.
I think SFM being pretty mediocre in Legacy, where speed matters, is an indication of SFM being at least not amazing in Modern. DnT in modern is way less good than Legacy and, on the other hand, we have no FoW to create an esper deathblade type of deck which can play a selfprotected threat AND keep up free counters.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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I somewhat understand concern from those seeing it in legacy, too. But like Ym1r said, I think SFM is propped up a lot in legacy due to the other cards that exploit or protect it. Legacy has Mother of Runes, true-name nemesis, and better equipment than modern can ever expect to get in umezawa's jitte. Not to mention benefiting from being played in a format that uses significantly less removal than modern. SFM itself in legacy is a workaround to an issue that modern doesn't have: a way to get past (free)counterspells.
Meanwhile, there is still a very real deckbuilding constriction in playing SFM in modern. Any current decks wanting to run it needs to trim at least 6 cards from their builds to play it reliably. D&T needs to seriously re-think their deck or suffer from leonin arbiter-related mishaps. Otherwise, it just provides a more reliable win-con to white decks that is still VERY much interact-able. I'm not saying the card isn't powerful, it is. But I feel as if people are putting too much weight on the strength it showed in standard and a very different legacy environment.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
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GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
There have been numerous occasions where people have tried steelshaper's gift. It's more efficient than SFM in the deck and affinity doesn't care enough about the "put directly into play" clause given how quickly they can empty their hand regardless.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
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I mean it's just another aggro deck that is thriving because there isn't enough interaction IMO.
Other decks from that SCG:
3-4: Etron, Storm
5-8: Etron, Affinity, Infect, UWr Midrange (and the title is accurate.)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
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In most decks, Stoneforge Mystic is superior to Steelshaper's Gift, but Affinity is the opposite and the better card is already in the format and not being played by the deck.
Haha that was phenomenal; thanks for sharing. Can't believe I never saw it sooner.
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To be fair, eggs wincon has adjusted a lot since then and would no longer take that long. That being said, Modern Eggs doesn't need yet another piece. Last thing we need is another tier 1 non interactive combo deck.
Anyone who's sat across from an Eggs players knows why Second Sunrise is a really bad idea in Modern.