I mean, people complain that Counterspell can't be printed because it's too good for Standard. What do those people think that an equipment better than those will do to Standard...to Limited? (even without a 1 mana dork)
Which in of itself is ridiculous because they basically did this already and it was totally fine. I played that deck extensively in Standard. Also, Logic Knot is functionally the same thing most of the time anyway, but gets worse and worse as the game goes on (much like Mana Leak, which has seen a massive reduction in play itself)
With mono White and Colorless/white d&t making showings at the top 8s recently, SFM is looking less likely. While in my opinion the least controversial, it still is unlikely to diversify decks.
So that leaves BBE value on a small hasty body, or Jace whose +2 is like lanterns soft lock, minus top card being revealed. I think these two can come off, but just from these forums, things feel heated from their opponents...
As much as I hate to say it, we might see further meta shifts, and still no unbans. That said, could be wrong and they unban one of the two.
Edit: I think the biggest reason Silumgar's Scorn didn't break standard is because there are very few dragons that can make a curve work, most being curve toppers. How often in modern do you want a card in hand that won't do anything for a few turns to enable a card that's worse than a mana leak without it?
And there are few modern Dragons that are playable, most above 4 cmc
I mean, people complain that Counterspell can't be printed because it's too good for Standard. What do those people think that an equipment better than those will do to Standard...to Limited? (even without a 1 mana dork)
Which in of itself is ridiculous because they basically did this already and it was totally fine. I played that deck extensively in Standard. Also, Logic Knot is functionally the same thing most of the time anyway, but gets worse and worse as the game goes on (much like Mana Leak, which has seen a massive reduction in play itself)
Yep, I completely agree. Did I tell everybody (probably 100 times already) about the time I got "Counterspelled" by Silumgar's Scorn on turns 2, 3, 4, and 5 at an Invitational in Round 1 in Game 1? I admit that I got pretty wrecked and you can still see the salt flowing. (although I got that player back with Eye Eldrazi vs. his Angel Chord at a GPT later on)
For what it's worth from an anonymous internet user, I doubt Wizards prints an equipment better than Sword of X and Y.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
when was the last time they printed good equipment. hint: no time in the last half decade.
The argument that "Stoneforge Mystic" only gets better because better equipment can get printed is just silly to me. For real - is Wizards going to print an equipment better than Jitte? That's just silly. Or, I can even forget about that one because it's not (rightfully so) Modern legal. Are they going to print equipment better than Sword of X and Y, Batterskull, or even Cranial Plating? Somehow, I doubt it.
I mean, people complain that Counterspell can't be printed because it's too good for Standard. What do those people think that an equipment better than those will do to Standard...to Limited? (even without a 1 mana dork)
I don't think Limited would be all that big of a consideration. Even if it was, they'd just make the equipment mythic (like they did the last three Swords) to give it almost no influence on Limited.
That said, I do agree it's fairly hard to believe they'd print equipment that could break Stoneforge Mystic (or, if you think it's already broken, break it more). I believe they admitted that the Swords were more powerful than they were comfortable with in Standard.
I suppose a better Batterskull might be a small concern, as those are largely only useful with Stoneforge Mystic in Standard (therefore, with no Mystic, they'd be safe in Standard), but it's worth remembering that Batterskull was actually made to be powerful with Stoneforge Mystic. That was deliberate. The problem was, as the banning rationale explained, they missed the fact Stoneforge Mystic would be format-warping before they printed Batterskull, thus making the interaction hammer the best archetype into place instead of making an exciting new one. So I don't see them printing something that synergizes better with Stoneforge Mystic than Batterskull by accident considering Batterskull was intentionally made to be good with Stoneforge Mystic.
You can infract this post if you want, but the censorship rule is bull*****. I don't particularly enjoy seeing and having to talk about the topic in question anymore either since it's all the same dumb arguments over and over, but this is the state of the meta and banlist thread. This is the place for discussions like that. If people don't want to talk about certain banned cards, MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T BE IN THE BANLIST THREAD. Or they could just learn to skip over and ignore comments on topics they don't want to talk about.
The bottom line is that that particular banning was controversial (thus why people are still talking about it 2 years later), Wizards basically gave us a heads-up that they might unban something after the PT, and it's a card on many people's short-lists of potential unban targets. Whether or not it's a viable unban at this point is a perfectly reasonable debate to have IN THE BANLIST THREAD.
That's all I have to say on the topic, but you can consider this my formal dissent to reinstituting this censorship rule in this thread.
This.
The threads outlived any usefulness it once claimed to pretend to have if people cannot get over the fact Twin is discussed still for good reasons.
You can infract this post if you want, but the censorship rule is bull*****. I don't particularly enjoy seeing and having to talk about the topic in question anymore either since it's all the same dumb arguments over and over, but this is the state of the meta and banlist thread. This is the place for discussions like that. If people don't want to talk about certain banned cards, MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T BE IN THE BANLIST THREAD. Or they could just learn to skip over and ignore comments on topics they don't want to talk about.
The bottom line is that that particular banning was controversial (thus why people are still talking about it 2 years later), Wizards basically gave us a heads-up that they might unban something after the PT, and it's a card on many people's short-lists of potential unban targets. Whether or not it's a viable unban at this point is a perfectly reasonable debate to have IN THE BANLIST THREAD.
That's all I have to say on the topic, but you can consider this my formal dissent to reinstituting this censorship rule in this thread.
This.
The threads outlived any usefulness it once claimed to pretend to have if people cannot get over the fact Twin is discussed still for good reasons.
What a joke.
Additionally, ever since we lost any form of reasonable meta data, this thread has been nothing but opinions, conjectures, anecdotal stories, and strong personalities. Doesn't matter what the particular topic is, it's all the same
Only difference is that the one with the most controversy surrounding it (with entirely reasonable justification for discussion, based on recent comments directly from Wizards) is needlessly banned for just as stupid and arbitrary of reasoning as the deck itself was. It's a joke; a mockery of discussion to literally ban a discussion topic, despite massive relevance and huge impact. Why? Because some people who weren't even around two years ago and don't understand context don't want to hear about the past?
For what it's worth, I was one of the people arguing against Stoneforge Mystic a long way back. I don't think that it is a good card to unban in a meta where there is a high percentage of "fair" decks. It will just push them toward White. But this is neither here nor there. Obviously a card this strong is not without risk. There is always some risk, but if the risk is so small and there is an option to reban it a couple of months later, why wait on pulling the trigger? Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor would sell the new Modern Masters very handsomely.
This is how I feel are the chances of something being broken...
1. Bloodbraid Elf - 0.00001%
2. Jace, the Mind Sculptor - 5%
3. Stoneforge Mystic - 10%
(For what it's worth, 4. Green Sun's Zenith - 15%, 5. Preordain - 15%.)
I would really love to see the argument of those believing that any of those cards have higher than a 33% chance of being broken. I just don't see it.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace the Mind Sculptor are only remotely powerful in formats that include multiple free ways to protect them. We don't have Force or Daze, and just about every other deck will kill it, take it from your hand, or kill you before either is relevant. I've said this multiple times, but forget "broken," I don't even know if either of them would even be all that good today.
Cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace the Mind Sculptor are only remotely powerful in formats that include multiple free ways to protect them. We don't have Force or Daze, and just about every other deck will kill it, take it from your hand, or kill you before either is relevant. I've said this multiple times, but forget "broken," I don't even know if either of them would even be all that good today.
That's not true. They dominated Zendikar-Scars Standard and were so good in Extended (well, 4-year Extended) that they changed the format of the Pro Tour to Modern so they wouldn't have a Pro Tour dominated by the cards. What "multiple free ways to protect them" did they have in those formats? And don't claim Mental Misstep, because (1) Mental Misstep is one way, not multiple, (2) Caw-Blade was the best deck before Mental Misstep came out, and (3) most Stoneforge/Jace decks didn't run Mental Misstep in those formats during the brief period all three were simultaneously legal.
The problem with the cards in those formats was lack of good answers (no Pithing Needle, no Oblivion Ring) and/or lack of rival cards that were on their power level. It had nothing to do with having multiple free ways to protect them, because there weren't.
Cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace the Mind Sculptor are only remotely powerful in formats that include multiple free ways to protect them. We don't have Force or Daze, and just about every other deck will kill it, take it from your hand, or kill you before either is relevant. I've said this multiple times, but forget "broken," I don't even know if either of them would even be all that good today.
That's not true. They dominated Zendikar-Scars Standard and were so good in Extended (well, 4-year Extended) that they changed the format of the Pro Tour to Modern so they wouldn't have a Pro Tour dominated by the cards. What "multiple free ways to protect them" did they have in those formats? And don't claim Mental Misstep, because (1) Mental Misstep is one way, not multiple, (2) Caw-Blade was the best deck before Mental Misstep came out, and (3) most Stoneforge/Jace decks didn't run Mental Misstep in those formats during the brief period all three were simultaneously legal.
The problem with the cards in those formats was lack of good answers (no Pithing Needle, no Oblivion Ring) and/or lack of rival cards that were on their power level. It had nothing to do with having multiple free ways to protect them, because there weren't.
It was good in Standard because standard always has crappy, narrow answers and Mana Leak was usually good enough. Or so I read; I wasn't playing that time. I'm specifically referring to Legacy, since it's an eternal format many people use as a comparison or justification for why these cards should remain banned. The only reason either see play in Legacy is Force and Daze (and Jitte, which we don't have anyway).
It was good in Standard because standard always has crappy, narrow answers and Mana Leak was usually good enough. Or so I read; I wasn't playing that time. I'm specifically referring to Legacy, since it's an eternal format many people use as a comparison or justification for why these cards should remain banned. The only reason either see play in Legacy is Force and Daze (and Jitte, which we don't have anyway).
This is news to those who run Death & Taxes (Tier 1 deck!), as that deck runs 4x Stoneforge Mystic and neither Force of Will nor Daze.
Actually, for that matter, as far as I can tell most Stoneforge Mystic decks don't run Daze; oh, don't get me wrong, it's not an oddity or anything to see them run together, but generally speaking Stoneforge Mystic decks don't use Daze.
It is true that outside of Death & Taxes (and the relatively fringe Maverick), all of the Stoneforge decks run Force of Will, but what fair Blue deck doesn't run it? Even disregarding Death & Taxes, I don't know how well we can really ascribe Stoneforge Mystic's power in Legacy to Daze or Force of Will. "Stoneforge Mystic wouldn't see much play if not for Force of Will" seems like it can be turned around and one can say "fair decks in Legacy (the only ones that would ever run Stoneforge Mystic) wouldn't see much play if not for Force of Will."
Batterskull is not unbeatable. All that is needed is artifact destruction and some common sideboard cards can deal with this. I'd be lying if I said the meta wouldn't change with this cards addition, but Stony Silence, Destructive Revelry, and the like at least give us something to meta game back into the fight.
And out of Jace and SFM, I think Jace would be slightly ahead on how broken it can be. That said this is a fast format...
One aspect of SFM which I don't see discussed much is that if it does come off the ban list, doesn't that put a hard cap on how good equipment can become in the future? I think Wizards might take into account that SFM could become the next GGT if a piece of equipment comes out down the line that breaks it.
This might be a legitimate concern if Wizards hadn't already "nerfed" equipment to be only viable in Limited in most cases. You'll notice that since the enemy swords were finished in SOM, there have been no really good equipment and certainly none better than what we already have.
It seems unlikely the unbanning of SFM will make equipment worse than they already are.
That, and even the best equipment ever printed sees zero play in Modern as it is...
That's because they're banned (Skullclamp and Umezawa's Jitte)
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
It was good in Standard because standard always has crappy, narrow answers and Mana Leak was usually good enough. Or so I read; I wasn't playing that time. I'm specifically referring to Legacy, since it's an eternal format many people use as a comparison or justification for why these cards should remain banned. The only reason either see play in Legacy is Force and Daze (and Jitte, which we don't have anyway).
This is news to those who run Death & Taxes (Tier 1 deck!), as that deck runs 4x Stoneforge Mystic and neither Force of Will nor Daze.
Actually, for that matter, as far as I can tell most Stoneforge Mystic decks don't run Daze; oh, don't get me wrong, it's not an oddity or anything to see them run together, but generally speaking Stoneforge Mystic decks don't use Daze.
It is true that outside of Death & Taxes (and the relatively fringe Maverick), all of the Stoneforge decks run Force of Will, but what fair Blue deck doesn't run it? Even disregarding Death & Taxes, I don't know how well we can really ascribe Stoneforge Mystic's power in Legacy to Daze or Force of Will. "Stoneforge Mystic wouldn't see much play if not for Force of Will" seems like it can be turned around and one can say "fair decks in Legacy (the only ones that would ever run Stoneforge Mystic) wouldn't see much play if not for Force of Will."
Clearly my lack of knowledge of Legacy is causing a problem, so I'll make it explicitly clear: The point I'm trying to get at is that it doesn't matter what a card does in Legacy, it doesn't matter what a card does in Standard. The card may be the same, but the ecosystem, metagame, suit of tools, suite of answers, everything that defines a format, is different. Whatever fears or examples anyone gives from Standard or Legacy for Stoneforge Mystic are wholly irrelevant to Modern.
Though I would like to add that D&T does have a variety of "free" protection in the form of tax/status effects that don't actually cost anything once on the field.
Disagree that Legacy isn't a good litmus test for Modern safety. Most cards that are in a Modern legal set and also banned in Legacy are seriously broken in Modern. In fact, are there any cards that meet those criteria and aren't busted in Modern?
It doesn't necessarily work in the other direction, but it at least helps us with a starting point.
EDIT: I'll also add that I think everything that is banned in Legacy would be a total nightmare in Modern if printed and legalized for us.
Disagree that Legacy isn't a good litmus test for Modern safety. Most cards that are in a Modern legal set and also banned in Legacy are seriously broken in Modern. In fact, are there any cards that meet those criteria and aren't busted in Modern?
It doesn't necessarily work in the other direction, but it at least helps us with a starting point.
EDIT: I'll also add that I think everything that is banned in Legacy would be a total nightmare in Modern if printed and legalized for us.
I don't think that Dig Through Time would be a nightmare. It certainly would see play and would definitely be very good, but it wouldn't define Modern the way it defined Legacy for a bit. I don't think it's Dig's time in Modern, but eventually I hope it will be.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Have to agree that a card with both insane selection and card advantage at instant speed for (usually) very low mana is pretty ridiculous. I'm all for Blue reactive decks getting more tools, but to me that's just taking it a step too far in the opposite direction. I'd rather they reprint Fact or Fiction or come up with something similar to DtT but less powerful.
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Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
I'm going to agree with 3 here. We've seen draw 3 filtering effects at 3 mana and they don't really see play typically. Draw 3 and put 2 back seems fine at 2 mana even if it does eventually just turn into draw 3 cards late game and put back 2 fetches or whateve else we'd want to put back.
To be honest, I feel like the ban on discussion of Splinter Twin is just causing more debates about the card, but in a even less productive way. Instead of constructive discussion of the meta, certain cards aren't even allowed for discussion and the rest are fairly obvious candidates. But honestly, is there anyone who will actually take this input for face value rather than being annoyed at the fact that the topic has been brought up again, no matter the legitimacy of the reason? If we can't be reasonable, I'd rather just stop following this thread and leave it to die with the handful of people who actually post here. (I really only lurk anyways. :/ )
Let's be honest -- it's pretty much a given that Twin is a legitimate candidate for being unbanned (not that it should or will be, but that it could) -- the banlist polls support that, and we should just leave it at that. There's neither a reason to discuss it individually, NOR a reason to ban discussion of it.
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I'm going to agree with 3 here. We've seen draw 3 filtering effects at 3 mana and they don't really see play typically. Draw 3 and put 2 back seems fine at 2 mana even if it does eventually just turn into draw 3 cards late game and put back 2 fetches or whateve else we'd want to put back.
I believe 2 would be playable, but not too good in Modern.
I sadly don't think RnD will ever let 2 mana brainstorm at sorcery speed through standard, let alone at instant speed. I know you know this, but we have to look at these cards in the context of standard as well due to the nature of how cards enter our playable card pool.
I got my foil playset of stoneforges for 40 euros (gp promo) in april. I'm waiting now
While it has been hilarious to watch SFM & JTMS stock spike and crash with every single B&R announcement since 2012, I actually think SFM has a shot at becoming Modern legal again due to the comments made by WotC not so long ago regarding W&U's representation in the format along with the recent announcement mentioning the fact that WotC was mulling over unbanning(s). Although I'd welcome a Preordain or Dig Through Time un-ban, SFM is the seemingly safer option IMO; the fact that they (semi)recently gave her a GP promo is another reason to speculate. Folks seem to think BBE is the most likely candidate, but I could see a BBE un-ban go the way of GGT where it either warps the format or makes just 1-2 decks hyper efficient & consistent, landing itself back on the ban list as a result.
Disagree that Legacy isn't a good litmus test for Modern safety. Most cards that are in a Modern legal set and also banned in Legacy are seriously broken in Modern. In fact, are there any cards that meet those criteria and aren't busted in Modern?
It doesn't necessarily work in the other direction, but it at least helps us with a starting point.
EDIT: I'll also add that I think everything that is banned in Legacy would be a total nightmare in Modern if printed and legalized for us.
I don't agree with this. There are very clearly cards that are better in Legacy than they are in Modern. Let's just take Monastery Mentor, for example. It's restricted in Vintage, is a staple of Legacy Miracles, but sees zero play in Modern. Another example is Dig Through Time. Whether or not it was still ban-worthy in Modern isn't my point, but it was undeniably more powerful in Legacy than it was in Modern. It super-charged the blue combo decks like Omnitell and the control decks like Miracles and Stoneblade. We don't have those kind of combo decks in Modern (Scapeshift being the one possible exception), and the control decks here are bad, unlike in Legacy. So, the format absolutely informs the performance of a card.
In these particular cases: SFM doesn't have Jitte in Modern. That's the biggest difference for her. The other huge difference is that artifact hate is very common in Modern because of the existence of Affinity, but sees very little play in Legacy. And, as others have said, she doesn't have things like Mother of Runes, Daze, and FoW to protect her in Modern. All of these things add up to make her contextually a less powerful card in Modern than she is in Legacy. Now, Modern is a lower power format overall, so she would obviously still see play, but probably just as much as she does in Legacy, meaning she would be played in Death and Taxes decks and create a new Stoneblade archetype.
For Jace, he shares a similar downside in Modern with SFM, being that there is no free countermagic to protect yourself with when you tap out to play him. The other biggest difference with him between the formats is that Legacy is a card advantage format, while Modern is a tempo format. Jace is a card advantage card, so he's going to be better in a format that places more value on what he does. The other big factor for him is the place in the meta of the decks that would play him. Jace decks in Legacy are the best decks in the format, and they are so because of Brainstorm and FoW. Decks that would play Jace in Modern, blue control decks, are not that great, and outside of brief windows where they've been well positioned against a particular meta, have never been very good in Modern. There is very little threat that Jace alone makes blue control decks go from not very good to oppressive.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I think Wizards is most likely to unban more than one card in February if they unban any at all, and I think the most obvious choices are BBE and Jace. BBE would have almost no effect on the format at all, so that's the easy one. Jund has been floundering for a long time now. Even though it kept seeing play after the Twin ban up until the Shadow decks emerged, I think most hardcore GBx players would tell you that Jund wasn't well positioned after the banning of Twin and introduction of Eldrazi decks. If BBE is enough to help Jund back into tier 2, then I think that's great. A common point of contention I've heard is its interaction with Ancestral Vision, but I really don't see how that's a problem. Temur decks are nonexistent in Modern. BBE into AV is certainly a very powerful interaction, and if that interaction is powerful enough to be built around and make Temur midrange a viable deck, then I think that's great too! Maybe Savage Knuckleblade will finally see some play, then.
As for Jace, as I said in my comment above, he's considerably less powerful in Modern than he is in Legacy. Still, he might be just enough to allow blue control decks to be legitimately good, instead of only good when the meta aligns perfectly for them. Unbanning him at the same time as BBE also answers the question of whether he would push out other fair decks. BBE, as we all know, is a very good followup to your opponent casting Jace. I think he's less of a gimme than BBE, but would most likely be fine.
If Wizards decides to really go wild, they might do a triple unban and include SFM, or possibly SFM instead of Jace. The only thing that gives me any pause about her is the recent uptick of white Aether Vial decks, but I think she would still be fine.
For the less likely cards:
Preordain I don't think is happening now. Storm and GDS becoming top tier decks probably kills its chances, along with the printing of Opt. I don't think Preordain happens unless Wizards finally makes the right decision and bans Grapeshot. I'm pretty tired of the blue cantrips dying for Storm's sins, and I'm going to be really unhappy if they ban a card like Serum Visions or Gifts Ungiven to further nerf Storm. Stop beating around the bush and address the actual problem! Preordain only slotting into GDS and possibly Jeskai with whatever else they unban would probably be ok, IMO.
GSZ I think won't be unbanned. We already have Chord of Calling as a lower power version, I don't think we need a Chord that's also good early in the game. There's also Traverse, which does something similar once you have delirium online.
Twin, I think, would be perfectly fine in the meta right now, but it's probably not happening in February. GDS is doing an ok job of being the stabilizing presence that Twin used to be, so I don't think it's a necessary unban for format health anymore. If they unban a couple cards in February and everything pans out ok, I could see Twin being a real option in 2019.
Other than those cards, I don't think there's anything else with a reasonable chance.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
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Which in of itself is ridiculous because they basically did this already and it was totally fine. I played that deck extensively in Standard. Also, Logic Knot is functionally the same thing most of the time anyway, but gets worse and worse as the game goes on (much like Mana Leak, which has seen a massive reduction in play itself)
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
So that leaves BBE value on a small hasty body, or Jace whose +2 is like lanterns soft lock, minus top card being revealed. I think these two can come off, but just from these forums, things feel heated from their opponents...
As much as I hate to say it, we might see further meta shifts, and still no unbans. That said, could be wrong and they unban one of the two.
Edit: I think the biggest reason Silumgar's Scorn didn't break standard is because there are very few dragons that can make a curve work, most being curve toppers. How often in modern do you want a card in hand that won't do anything for a few turns to enable a card that's worse than a mana leak without it?
And there are few modern Dragons that are playable, most above 4 cmc
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Yep, I completely agree. Did I tell everybody (probably 100 times already) about the time I got "Counterspelled" by Silumgar's Scorn on turns 2, 3, 4, and 5 at an Invitational in Round 1 in Game 1? I admit that I got pretty wrecked and you can still see the salt flowing. (although I got that player back with Eye Eldrazi vs. his Angel Chord at a GPT later on)
For what it's worth from an anonymous internet user, I doubt Wizards prints an equipment better than Sword of X and Y.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)That said, I do agree it's fairly hard to believe they'd print equipment that could break Stoneforge Mystic (or, if you think it's already broken, break it more). I believe they admitted that the Swords were more powerful than they were comfortable with in Standard.
I suppose a better Batterskull might be a small concern, as those are largely only useful with Stoneforge Mystic in Standard (therefore, with no Mystic, they'd be safe in Standard), but it's worth remembering that Batterskull was actually made to be powerful with Stoneforge Mystic. That was deliberate. The problem was, as the banning rationale explained, they missed the fact Stoneforge Mystic would be format-warping before they printed Batterskull, thus making the interaction hammer the best archetype into place instead of making an exciting new one. So I don't see them printing something that synergizes better with Stoneforge Mystic than Batterskull by accident considering Batterskull was intentionally made to be good with Stoneforge Mystic.
This.
The threads outlived any usefulness it once claimed to pretend to have if people cannot get over the fact Twin is discussed still for good reasons.
What a joke.
Spirits
Additionally, ever since we lost any form of reasonable meta data, this thread has been nothing but opinions, conjectures, anecdotal stories, and strong personalities. Doesn't matter what the particular topic is, it's all the same
Only difference is that the one with the most controversy surrounding it (with entirely reasonable justification for discussion, based on recent comments directly from Wizards) is needlessly banned for just as stupid and arbitrary of reasoning as the deck itself was. It's a joke; a mockery of discussion to literally ban a discussion topic, despite massive relevance and huge impact. Why? Because some people who weren't even around two years ago and don't understand context don't want to hear about the past?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This is how I feel are the chances of something being broken...
1. Bloodbraid Elf - 0.00001%
2. Jace, the Mind Sculptor - 5%
3. Stoneforge Mystic - 10%
(For what it's worth, 4. Green Sun's Zenith - 15%, 5. Preordain - 15%.)
I would really love to see the argument of those believing that any of those cards have higher than a 33% chance of being broken. I just don't see it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The problem with the cards in those formats was lack of good answers (no Pithing Needle, no Oblivion Ring) and/or lack of rival cards that were on their power level. It had nothing to do with having multiple free ways to protect them, because there weren't.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Actually, for that matter, as far as I can tell most Stoneforge Mystic decks don't run Daze; oh, don't get me wrong, it's not an oddity or anything to see them run together, but generally speaking Stoneforge Mystic decks don't use Daze.
It is true that outside of Death & Taxes (and the relatively fringe Maverick), all of the Stoneforge decks run Force of Will, but what fair Blue deck doesn't run it? Even disregarding Death & Taxes, I don't know how well we can really ascribe Stoneforge Mystic's power in Legacy to Daze or Force of Will. "Stoneforge Mystic wouldn't see much play if not for Force of Will" seems like it can be turned around and one can say "fair decks in Legacy (the only ones that would ever run Stoneforge Mystic) wouldn't see much play if not for Force of Will."
And out of Jace and SFM, I think Jace would be slightly ahead on how broken it can be. That said this is a fast format...
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That's because they're banned (Skullclamp and Umezawa's Jitte)
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Clearly my lack of knowledge of Legacy is causing a problem, so I'll make it explicitly clear: The point I'm trying to get at is that it doesn't matter what a card does in Legacy, it doesn't matter what a card does in Standard. The card may be the same, but the ecosystem, metagame, suit of tools, suite of answers, everything that defines a format, is different. Whatever fears or examples anyone gives from Standard or Legacy for Stoneforge Mystic are wholly irrelevant to Modern.
Though I would like to add that D&T does have a variety of "free" protection in the form of tax/status effects that don't actually cost anything once on the field.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It doesn't necessarily work in the other direction, but it at least helps us with a starting point.
EDIT: I'll also add that I think everything that is banned in Legacy would be a total nightmare in Modern if printed and legalized for us.
I don't think that Dig Through Time would be a nightmare. It certainly would see play and would definitely be very good, but it wouldn't define Modern the way it defined Legacy for a bit. I don't think it's Dig's time in Modern, but eventually I hope it will be.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'd literally rather risk unbanning sfm, bbe and jace all at the same time than dig through time.
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
Let's be honest -- it's pretty much a given that Twin is a legitimate candidate for being unbanned (not that it should or will be, but that it could) -- the banlist polls support that, and we should just leave it at that. There's neither a reason to discuss it individually, NOR a reason to ban discussion of it.
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- Torpf
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
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EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I sadly don't think RnD will ever let 2 mana brainstorm at sorcery speed through standard, let alone at instant speed. I know you know this, but we have to look at these cards in the context of standard as well due to the nature of how cards enter our playable card pool.
While it has been hilarious to watch SFM & JTMS stock spike and crash with every single B&R announcement since 2012, I actually think SFM has a shot at becoming Modern legal again due to the comments made by WotC not so long ago regarding W&U's representation in the format along with the recent announcement mentioning the fact that WotC was mulling over unbanning(s). Although I'd welcome a Preordain or Dig Through Time un-ban, SFM is the seemingly safer option IMO; the fact that they (semi)recently gave her a GP promo is another reason to speculate. Folks seem to think BBE is the most likely candidate, but I could see a BBE un-ban go the way of GGT where it either warps the format or makes just 1-2 decks hyper efficient & consistent, landing itself back on the ban list as a result.
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In these particular cases: SFM doesn't have Jitte in Modern. That's the biggest difference for her. The other huge difference is that artifact hate is very common in Modern because of the existence of Affinity, but sees very little play in Legacy. And, as others have said, she doesn't have things like Mother of Runes, Daze, and FoW to protect her in Modern. All of these things add up to make her contextually a less powerful card in Modern than she is in Legacy. Now, Modern is a lower power format overall, so she would obviously still see play, but probably just as much as she does in Legacy, meaning she would be played in Death and Taxes decks and create a new Stoneblade archetype.
For Jace, he shares a similar downside in Modern with SFM, being that there is no free countermagic to protect yourself with when you tap out to play him. The other biggest difference with him between the formats is that Legacy is a card advantage format, while Modern is a tempo format. Jace is a card advantage card, so he's going to be better in a format that places more value on what he does. The other big factor for him is the place in the meta of the decks that would play him. Jace decks in Legacy are the best decks in the format, and they are so because of Brainstorm and FoW. Decks that would play Jace in Modern, blue control decks, are not that great, and outside of brief windows where they've been well positioned against a particular meta, have never been very good in Modern. There is very little threat that Jace alone makes blue control decks go from not very good to oppressive.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
As for Jace, as I said in my comment above, he's considerably less powerful in Modern than he is in Legacy. Still, he might be just enough to allow blue control decks to be legitimately good, instead of only good when the meta aligns perfectly for them. Unbanning him at the same time as BBE also answers the question of whether he would push out other fair decks. BBE, as we all know, is a very good followup to your opponent casting Jace. I think he's less of a gimme than BBE, but would most likely be fine.
If Wizards decides to really go wild, they might do a triple unban and include SFM, or possibly SFM instead of Jace. The only thing that gives me any pause about her is the recent uptick of white Aether Vial decks, but I think she would still be fine.
For the less likely cards:
Preordain I don't think is happening now. Storm and GDS becoming top tier decks probably kills its chances, along with the printing of Opt. I don't think Preordain happens unless Wizards finally makes the right decision and bans Grapeshot. I'm pretty tired of the blue cantrips dying for Storm's sins, and I'm going to be really unhappy if they ban a card like Serum Visions or Gifts Ungiven to further nerf Storm. Stop beating around the bush and address the actual problem! Preordain only slotting into GDS and possibly Jeskai with whatever else they unban would probably be ok, IMO.
GSZ I think won't be unbanned. We already have Chord of Calling as a lower power version, I don't think we need a Chord that's also good early in the game. There's also Traverse, which does something similar once you have delirium online.
Twin, I think, would be perfectly fine in the meta right now, but it's probably not happening in February. GDS is doing an ok job of being the stabilizing presence that Twin used to be, so I don't think it's a necessary unban for format health anymore. If they unban a couple cards in February and everything pans out ok, I could see Twin being a real option in 2019.
Other than those cards, I don't think there's anything else with a reasonable chance.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW