Yes new card can get in, however these are roles that didn't already have cards in those roles and whose thresholds require a higher average power of card to unseat them.
I feel certain card can be done to impact modern and legacy just fine and being in standard ie Fatal push but some cards wont as certain card roles have a much higher threshold of power that they need to impact the eternal formats. See turn 1 discard or counterspells.
Of course, but now that Fatal Push exists there's less space for black removal. There's only so much space, and if they print tons of cards for modern they'll quickly run out and we'll stop getting anything.
Do we need something to compete with Fatal Push, or Thoughtseize?
These are areas where the card pool already has high efficiency. It’s rather silly to use that as the standard for how hard it is for a card to break into Modern.
idSurge’s list is quite good at illustrating that cards make it into the format all the time. Are they all Fatal Push level, format defining cards? No. Sometimes they’re small, innocuous upgrades like Spirebluff Canal. Sometimes they’re an old card with a new upside, like Kozilek’s Return. Sometimes they’re sideboard utility cards, like Collective Brutality. Sometimes they’re cards that push a new archtype into top tier, like Kitesail Freebooter and Thalia’s Lieutenant. Sometimes they're just new toys that open up new deck designs, like Hollow One.
Do we have to gripe that we’re not getting new 1 mana removal or new 1 mana discard options that contend with Thoughtseize, every single set?
I think WotC has been pretty good at printing cards that trickle into Modern, even if they’re not format defining slam dunks every single time.
Yes new card can get in, however these are roles that didn't already have cards in those roles and whose thresholds require a higher average power of card to unseat them.
Wizards wants to sell Standard.
Wizards wants (some of) those cards to get into Modern.
Wizards wants Modern to be a living format, with change and growth coming through innovation, experimentation, and new cards.
I'm not saying that there are not hard limits on what can fit in Design. There are. I am not looking for Card - You win! with a cost of U.
I am, again, simply saying, Standard sets, have an impact on Modern most of the time.
The claim by some, is that Standard 'never impacts Modern' or 'hardly impacts Modern' or 'only a few cards impact Modern' as the goal posts shift.
My post proves, irrefutably, that Standard, impacts Modern.
That is all I'm saying.
You also have some examples in the set I posted, of cards that either MADE a new Tier 1 deck, allowed for older Tier 1 decks to continue to exist, or in the case of very mature, very defined decks (Affinity) there just isnt that much space, without printing again Card U: You win the game! And thats not in anyone's best interests.
True, there likely wont be a Lightning Bolt replacement any time soon...but that isnt the point.
I'm not done yet, but here is just a list from TIER ONE since Theros. I've tried to not repeat.
Again, this is JUST Tier 1, and cards since Theros (inclusive), and if anyone cares to look, some of these are the cards that actually propelled these decks to Tier 1, or created the decks in the first place.
Lets stop with the 'Standard Cards do not get into Modern'. Its not just false, its demonstrably a lie.
So we're going all the way back to Theros block in order to prove your point? On a long enough timeline, every standard set supremely affects Modern. Mirrodin and Innistrad gave a bunch of cards.
But after Khans block, that introduction to Modern level changed.
In addition, a lot of the cards you listed are in niche builds or are entirely meta choices.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Yes Teysa, going back to one of the weakest sets in recent memory, is being done to prove a point.
Keep shifting those goal posts, it just makes it more obvious.
That list was made with the MTGGoldfish data, crossed with this Forum as I tabbed through pages of information.
If you still want to stand by the claim that Standard sets dont impact Modern, well thats on you I guess.
The only goalpost moving is done by you, if you have to go all the way back to Theros to prove standard affects Modern at a high rate. Why not just go back to Mirrodin? You can get a LOT more cards from standard to modern that way.
I explained already that the standard design changed fairly drastically after Khans block. While you would get 7 or 8 cards per block before, you're getting fewer past that point. Unless you want to count little Tommy's Tier 5 Modern FNM deck that uses almost entirely cards from Shadows block, in which case, congrats on proving that every card in standard is also legal in modern.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Eldrazi Block? Broke Modern, and a TIER ONE deck still exists due to it, 2 really if you want to count GTron. Still, too close to Khans for you?
Shadows and Kaladesh brought us Dredge back to prominence, and without Baral, Storm isnt a deck and now we have Humans, and GW Company keeps on trucking with new cards.
The only one shifting goal posts on the actual question at hand, is you and I'm sure its plainly obviously to everyone else.
I SPECIFICALLY only list Tier 1 decks, and you call for Little Tommy's Tier 5? Is this a joke?
Dont bother to respond, I think you've proven the validity of your position.
Yes Teysa, going back to one of the weakest sets in recent memory, is being done to prove a point.
Keep shifting those goal posts, it just makes it more obvious.
That list was made with the MTGGoldfish data, crossed with this Forum as I tabbed through pages of information.
If you still want to stand by the claim that Standard sets dont impact Modern, well thats on you I guess.
The only goalpost moving is done by you, if you have to go all the way back to Theros to prove standard affects Modern at a high rate. Why not just go back to Mirrodin? You can get a LOT more cards from standard to modern that way.
I explained already that the standard design changed fairly drastically after Khans block. While you would get 7 or 8 cards per block before, you're getting fewer past that point. Unless you want to count little Tommy's Tier 5 Modern FNM deck that uses almost entirely cards from Shadows block, in which case, congrats on proving that every card in standard is also legal in modern.
That doesn't seem to check out though. idSurge provided a fairly decent list of cards that made it into Standard since Theros. Now, I suppose you could dispute the list itself, but I think that list includes solid examples of playable Modern cards. Based on the list provided, here is a quick breakdown of the number of cards by block:
Theros: 4
Magic Origins: 3
Khans of Tarkir: 10
Battle For Zendikar: 14
Shadows Over Innistrad: 9
Kaladesh: 7
Amonkhet: 5
Ixalan: 4
So, to fit within your apparent criteria, let's ignore Theros and Magic Origins (they had low impact anyway). It would seem that since Khans we have gotten 14 cards from BFZ and 9 from SOI. Even 7 from KLD is respectable and matches your "7 or 8 cards per block" comment. So, yes, Amonkhet and Ixalan have had less of an impact on Modern but not every set is going to have the same impact as a previous set.
I would call out that Khans also gave us fetches which were not in the numbers or list above. They are a bit of low hanging fruit as the enemy fetches already existed. But, if you want to include them, then Khans gave us 15 cards (just 1 over BFZ).
I guess My main point got lost in all this and its honestly on me for not explaining it how I intended. anywho I digress and will reiterate my point.
Yes standard cards make impacts in modern, I was never claiming they didn't. What I was more meaning was in certain card roles such as turn 1 discard or 1 mana burn spell or counterspells ect the threshold of power of cards for them to enter these eternal formats by being printed in standard legal sets is much higher as if they print copies of this they tend to be either reprints of too high of power level for standard (see Thoughtsieze) or they are almost reprints of existing card (see the cards I had commented on above). Due to this Higher threshold of power needed, we see less of certain card roles printed to enter eternal formats. That was all I was meaning by that.
Eldrazi Block? Broke Modern, and a TIER ONE deck still exists due to it, 2 really if you want to count GTron. Still, too close to Khans for you?
Shadows and Kaladesh brought us Dredge back to prominence, and without Baral, Storm isnt a deck and now we have Humans, and GW Company keeps on trucking with new cards.
The only one shifting goal posts on the actual question at hand, is you and I'm sure its plainly obviously to everyone else.
I SPECIFICALLY only list Tier 1 decks, and you call for Little Tommy's Tier 5? Is this a joke?
Dont bother to respond, I think you've proven the validity of your position.
Please, drop the mighty keyboard warrior act.
You list a bunch of Tier 2 and Tier 3 deck cards (And now suddenly U/W control is a tier 1 deck to you?), and claim that they impact Modern. Yes every card in those blocks is legal in Modern. Thank you for pointing it out again.
I said we are getting 1 or 2 per set into Tier 1. The number is larger if we can't every single fringe SB card.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
i think many of the cards (outside of reprints like opt) are often 1 mana too high for every format in recent sets, so its not a matter of effects not being good for modern, its mana costs, and I wouldnt mind seeing a standard where some of those same cards existed at 1 mana cheaper. This isnt a comment on standard, but modern would be getting cards at a higher rate without the design flaw of intentionally slowing down the game through mana costs. Im sure if you went and looked at the past 2 blocks and cut a mana on most of the stuff thats not seeing play, people would test those variants.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I guess we don't see what your trying to advocate for here. Could you possibly describe this one Mana discard spell you are waiting anxiously to see?
I don't think your presenting your philosophy correctly. It seams to me you are expecting them to make additional options to the smorgasbord of options they already have. At one Mana discard you already have Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, duress, Dispise, Appetite for brains, Ebony Charm, and Ravens Crime in modern. And that's not even all of them! How much more design space is there even left to break the mold.
Or perhaps there is a better example you could use to present your theory?
i think many of the cards (outside of reprints like opt) are often 1 mana too high for every format in recent sets, so its not a matter of effects not being good for modern, its mana costs, and I wouldnt mind seeing a standard where some of those same cards existed at 1 mana cheaper. This isnt a comment on standard, but modern would be getting cards at a higher rate without the design flaw of intentionally slowing down the game through mana costs. Im sure if you went and looked at the past 2 blocks and cut a mana on most of the stuff thats not seeing play, people would test those variants.
What you would get is extreme power creep. 1 mana off Disallow creates an even better Counterspell. 1 mana off Metallic Rebuke or Reduce to Rubble creates an even better Mana Leak. 1 mana off Revolutionary Rebuff creates a better Mana Tithe.
Balance isn't as simple as just taking a mana off and calling it a day.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
So I don't really engage with this thread anymore after it became the same five peeps conspiratorially complaining at each other, but right now I feel the need to just chime in with some positivity:
Done a bit of looking around, reading and digging for data. Modern looks like it's in a great place in terms of meta. There's some very different strategies represented in tier 1 from maybe 6 months ago and I'm almost proud we are where we are as a community with modern. People have really started understanding the ebb and flow of certain strategies in the meta and rising to answer new potentially powerful decks effectively. It almost feels like we have collectively "levelled up" or something. Like a new era.
Warms the cockles of your heart, so it does. Can't remember a better time to be playing this format. (I may have nostalgic love for certain decks that no longer exist, but as a sacrifice for a far greater and more balanced format, their loss is our gain)
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I feel we need Standard to introduce more cards like Opt and Fatal Push into our format, but to claim that Standard adds nothing at all is absolutely delusional.
I will say tough, the introductions into the format are rarely true fair cards. Most introductions into the format feel closer to Madcap Experiment, and Vizier of Remedies then they do Opt. Yet I'm sure we can conclude that's exactly what the problem with Standard is right now.
I feel we need Standard to introduce more cards like Opt and Fatal Push into our format, but to claim that Standard adds nothing at all is absolutely delusional.
I will say tough, the introductions into the format are rarely true fair cards. Most introductions into the format feel closer to Madcap Experiment, and Vizier of Remedies then they do Opt. Yet I'm sure we can conclude that's exactly what the problem with Standard is right now.
That's not standard's problem however. We know that they don't test the new cards for modern and, thus, it is possible that they create combos (i.e. Vizier of Remedies) unintentionally. Usually, the cards that create a broken combo in modern do nothing in Standard. Standard has a ton of problems, but creating broken combos for modern is not one of them.
I think people are shooting at the net but missing entirely when talking about cards from Standard impacting Modern.
idSurge made a really good list of cards that have bled from Standard into Modern. Now for a lot of these cards, they did absolutely nothing in Standard. Think Vizier of Remedies, Baral, Chief of Compliance, and Nahiri, the Harbinger. Very rarely do we get a fair but powerful card like Fatal Push move from Standard to Modern. 9 times out of 10 what we gets are cards that interact extremely well, in extremely unfair ways, with cards printed in older sets that don't impact Modern at all.
Think back to Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. Standard ended up being the only format these cards didn't get banned/restricted in. Now why is that? Obviously it's because Standard has a smaller card pool, which means there are less things to take advantage of the mechanics. There was no Thought Scour in Khans block so there we no super cheap way to aggressively power out your Ancestral Recall. But those cards do exist in Modern.
When a card does bleed into Modern it is usually because it has a stupid interaction with something in the format. Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies, Nahiri, the Harbinger + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Cathartic Reunion + Prized Amalgam + the Dredge package. We don't get these cards bleeding into Modern because they were made for Modern. We get them into Modern because R&D designed them and didn't catch some stupidly good interaction that makes them powerful. Hell this is why we had Eldrazi Winter for crying out loud.
People who want WotC to focus on making more cards like Fatal Push miss that cards like Push are happy accidents. They are powerful cards made to be powerful in Standard, but just so happen to have been made in a way that make them good in Modern. Most cards that we get for Modern weren't intentionally made for Modern. They are cards that were made for Standard, that have some Modern interaction WotC either didn't see, or doesn't care about, and thus we have something new.
So if you are talking about how WotC should focus more on printing more cards for Modern, you are completely missing how cards enter the Modern card pool in the first place.
I really hope all that made sense. I feel I ended up rambling a bit at the end and I am quite tired.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
People who want WotC to focus on making more cards like Fatal Push miss that cards like Push are happy accidents. They are powerful cards made to be powerful in Standard, but just so happen to have been made in a way that make them good in Modern. Most cards that we get for Modern weren't intentionally made for Modern. They are cards that were made for Standard, that have some Modern interaction WotC either didn't see, or doesn't care about, and thus we have something new.
You're not entirely wrong in this post, but Wizards did think Push was Modern playable. This was part of their design file on the card. That said, to support your point, Wizards seemed merely positive about Push's impact on non-rotating formats, whereas we all saw the card and it took us about 2 seconds to realize what a total game-changer it was. I'm hoping Play Design's presence, and Tom Ross's presence more specifically, helps this out.
We have not had a strong one-mana blue hand-fixing spell in Standard in quite some time, and we really wanted to find one that was appropriate for Standard and wouldn't break Modern.
They definitely don't test cards for Modern (at least, not under the old design and development model). But they still thought about us.
(re: Disallow - EEF: I like this. Is it expensive enough that people won't counter fetch land activations with it in Modern?
C'mon, Ethan Fleischer (aka EEF). It did not take the Modern community long to realize that Disallow was almost entirely unplayable in this format, and Ethan is worried about countering fetchland activations.
It's impossible for the designers to totally ignore Modern when designing, as I bet most of them play most of the formats, especially Modern.
What I hate is when they totally ignore Modern in dubious examples like Eldrazi Winter. They print cards that have obvious synergy with Eternal Format cards and yet they seemingly don't care about them whatsoever.
There's a trend in gaming I have noticed over the years is that old design philosophies get forgotten within companies over the years. With Wotc, they seemingly forgot the whole idea of what Eldrazi were supposed to be. instead of 8+ mana cost creatures that do OP things, they created 4 mana creatures that do OP things. Game designers look back on the past and want to change things, unknowingly these things are what make the game so great.
With Standard, this is what they try and do. They think certain things like UU counter spells or 3 damage for 1 mana are unfair, so they try and change it. So they create a bunch of underpowered cards that don't hit etrernal formats. so then when they make a card like Fatal Push, that is very restricted in use when it comes to the Standard format, it becomes format shifting in another, older format
These have all seen play in some lists that have done well, or will at least show up in the future. It is better for new cards that enter the format to help niche decks than power up format all-stars. We don't need tons of Fatal Push powered cards.
Agree with the outcome. People (especially the serious competitive crowd) hate variance wins. The salt would flow, even if its 'fine' when put beside other variance cards like Company.
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UW Spirits
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Only a few of the card you listed had card that filled their prior role:
- Thalia's Lieutenant[c/] : cChampion of the parish
- Kozilek's Return,Sweltering Suns, Anger of the gods: Slagstorm and its variants
- Monastery Swiftspear : kird Ape
Of course, but now that Fatal Push exists there's less space for black removal. There's only so much space, and if they print tons of cards for modern they'll quickly run out and we'll stop getting anything.
These are areas where the card pool already has high efficiency. It’s rather silly to use that as the standard for how hard it is for a card to break into Modern.
idSurge’s list is quite good at illustrating that cards make it into the format all the time. Are they all Fatal Push level, format defining cards? No. Sometimes they’re small, innocuous upgrades like Spirebluff Canal. Sometimes they’re an old card with a new upside, like Kozilek’s Return. Sometimes they’re sideboard utility cards, like Collective Brutality. Sometimes they’re cards that push a new archtype into top tier, like Kitesail Freebooter and Thalia’s Lieutenant. Sometimes they're just new toys that open up new deck designs, like Hollow One.
Do we have to gripe that we’re not getting new 1 mana removal or new 1 mana discard options that contend with Thoughtseize, every single set?
I think WotC has been pretty good at printing cards that trickle into Modern, even if they’re not format defining slam dunks every single time.
Thats...kind of the ideal?
Wizards wants to sell Standard.
Wizards wants (some of) those cards to get into Modern.
Wizards wants Modern to be a living format, with change and growth coming through innovation, experimentation, and new cards.
I'm not saying that there are not hard limits on what can fit in Design. There are. I am not looking for Card - You win! with a cost of U.
I am, again, simply saying, Standard sets, have an impact on Modern most of the time.
The claim by some, is that Standard 'never impacts Modern' or 'hardly impacts Modern' or 'only a few cards impact Modern' as the goal posts shift.
My post proves, irrefutably, that Standard, impacts Modern.
That is all I'm saying.
You also have some examples in the set I posted, of cards that either MADE a new Tier 1 deck, allowed for older Tier 1 decks to continue to exist, or in the case of very mature, very defined decks (Affinity) there just isnt that much space, without printing again Card U: You win the game! And thats not in anyone's best interests.
Spirits
So we're going all the way back to Theros block in order to prove your point? On a long enough timeline, every standard set supremely affects Modern. Mirrodin and Innistrad gave a bunch of cards.
But after Khans block, that introduction to Modern level changed.
In addition, a lot of the cards you listed are in niche builds or are entirely meta choices.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Keep shifting those goal posts, it just makes it more obvious.
That list was made with the MTGGoldfish data, crossed with this Forum as I tabbed through pages of information.
If you still want to stand by the claim that Standard sets dont impact Modern, well thats on you I guess.
Spirits
The only goalpost moving is done by you, if you have to go all the way back to Theros to prove standard affects Modern at a high rate. Why not just go back to Mirrodin? You can get a LOT more cards from standard to modern that way.
I explained already that the standard design changed fairly drastically after Khans block. While you would get 7 or 8 cards per block before, you're getting fewer past that point. Unless you want to count little Tommy's Tier 5 Modern FNM deck that uses almost entirely cards from Shadows block, in which case, congrats on proving that every card in standard is also legal in modern.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
'Standard Sets impact Modern'
Thats the 'goalpost'. But if you want post khans?
Eldrazi Block? Broke Modern, and a TIER ONE deck still exists due to it, 2 really if you want to count GTron. Still, too close to Khans for you?
Shadows and Kaladesh brought us Dredge back to prominence, and without Baral, Storm isnt a deck and now we have Humans, and GW Company keeps on trucking with new cards.
The only one shifting goal posts on the actual question at hand, is you and I'm sure its plainly obviously to everyone else.
I SPECIFICALLY only list Tier 1 decks, and you call for Little Tommy's Tier 5? Is this a joke?
Dont bother to respond, I think you've proven the validity of your position.
Spirits
Theros: 4
Magic Origins: 3
Khans of Tarkir: 10
Battle For Zendikar: 14
Shadows Over Innistrad: 9
Kaladesh: 7
Amonkhet: 5
Ixalan: 4
So, to fit within your apparent criteria, let's ignore Theros and Magic Origins (they had low impact anyway). It would seem that since Khans we have gotten 14 cards from BFZ and 9 from SOI. Even 7 from KLD is respectable and matches your "7 or 8 cards per block" comment. So, yes, Amonkhet and Ixalan have had less of an impact on Modern but not every set is going to have the same impact as a previous set.
I would call out that Khans also gave us fetches which were not in the numbers or list above. They are a bit of low hanging fruit as the enemy fetches already existed. But, if you want to include them, then Khans gave us 15 cards (just 1 over BFZ).
Yes standard cards make impacts in modern, I was never claiming they didn't. What I was more meaning was in certain card roles such as turn 1 discard or 1 mana burn spell or counterspells ect the threshold of power of cards for them to enter these eternal formats by being printed in standard legal sets is much higher as if they print copies of this they tend to be either reprints of too high of power level for standard (see Thoughtsieze) or they are almost reprints of existing card (see the cards I had commented on above). Due to this Higher threshold of power needed, we see less of certain card roles printed to enter eternal formats. That was all I was meaning by that.
I hope that clarifies what I was meaning.
Please, drop the mighty keyboard warrior act.
You list a bunch of Tier 2 and Tier 3 deck cards (And now suddenly U/W control is a tier 1 deck to you?), and claim that they impact Modern. Yes every card in those blocks is legal in Modern. Thank you for pointing it out again.
I said we are getting 1 or 2 per set into Tier 1. The number is larger if we can't every single fringe SB card.
But whatever. Enjoy your fantasy.
Infraction issued for flaming -- CavalryWolfPack
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
It isnt my list.
'Standard Cards Impact Modern'
Its.not.that.hard
Spirits
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I don't think your presenting your philosophy correctly. It seams to me you are expecting them to make additional options to the smorgasbord of options they already have. At one Mana discard you already have Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, duress, Dispise, Appetite for brains, Ebony Charm, and Ravens Crime in modern. And that's not even all of them! How much more design space is there even left to break the mold.
Or perhaps there is a better example you could use to present your theory?
What you would get is extreme power creep. 1 mana off Disallow creates an even better Counterspell. 1 mana off Metallic Rebuke or Reduce to Rubble creates an even better Mana Leak. 1 mana off Revolutionary Rebuff creates a better Mana Tithe.
Balance isn't as simple as just taking a mana off and calling it a day.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Done a bit of looking around, reading and digging for data. Modern looks like it's in a great place in terms of meta. There's some very different strategies represented in tier 1 from maybe 6 months ago and I'm almost proud we are where we are as a community with modern. People have really started understanding the ebb and flow of certain strategies in the meta and rising to answer new potentially powerful decks effectively. It almost feels like we have collectively "levelled up" or something. Like a new era.
Warms the cockles of your heart, so it does. Can't remember a better time to be playing this format. (I may have nostalgic love for certain decks that no longer exist, but as a sacrifice for a far greater and more balanced format, their loss is our gain)
I will say tough, the introductions into the format are rarely true fair cards. Most introductions into the format feel closer to Madcap Experiment, and Vizier of Remedies then they do Opt. Yet I'm sure we can conclude that's exactly what the problem with Standard is right now.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
idSurge made a really good list of cards that have bled from Standard into Modern. Now for a lot of these cards, they did absolutely nothing in Standard. Think Vizier of Remedies, Baral, Chief of Compliance, and Nahiri, the Harbinger. Very rarely do we get a fair but powerful card like Fatal Push move from Standard to Modern. 9 times out of 10 what we gets are cards that interact extremely well, in extremely unfair ways, with cards printed in older sets that don't impact Modern at all.
Think back to Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. Standard ended up being the only format these cards didn't get banned/restricted in. Now why is that? Obviously it's because Standard has a smaller card pool, which means there are less things to take advantage of the mechanics. There was no Thought Scour in Khans block so there we no super cheap way to aggressively power out your Ancestral Recall. But those cards do exist in Modern.
When a card does bleed into Modern it is usually because it has a stupid interaction with something in the format. Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies, Nahiri, the Harbinger + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Cathartic Reunion + Prized Amalgam + the Dredge package. We don't get these cards bleeding into Modern because they were made for Modern. We get them into Modern because R&D designed them and didn't catch some stupidly good interaction that makes them powerful. Hell this is why we had Eldrazi Winter for crying out loud.
People who want WotC to focus on making more cards like Fatal Push miss that cards like Push are happy accidents. They are powerful cards made to be powerful in Standard, but just so happen to have been made in a way that make them good in Modern. Most cards that we get for Modern weren't intentionally made for Modern. They are cards that were made for Standard, that have some Modern interaction WotC either didn't see, or doesn't care about, and thus we have something new.
So if you are talking about how WotC should focus more on printing more cards for Modern, you are completely missing how cards enter the Modern card pool in the first place.
I really hope all that made sense. I feel I ended up rambling a bit at the end and I am quite tired.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
You're not entirely wrong in this post, but Wizards did think Push was Modern playable. This was part of their design file on the card. That said, to support your point, Wizards seemed merely positive about Push's impact on non-rotating formats, whereas we all saw the card and it took us about 2 seconds to realize what a total game-changer it was. I'm hoping Play Design's presence, and Tom Ross's presence more specifically, helps this out.
Opt is another example where D&D considered Modern:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/play-design/m-files-ixalan-edition-part-1-2017-10-13
They definitely don't test cards for Modern (at least, not under the old design and development model). But they still thought about us.
On the other hand, the M-Files also give us some insight into some really comical Modern evaluations:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/m-files-aether-revolt-part-1-2017-02-03
C'mon, Ethan Fleischer (aka EEF). It did not take the Modern community long to realize that Disallow was almost entirely unplayable in this format, and Ethan is worried about countering fetchland activations.
Related: Wizards knew that the AKH cycle lands needed a different activation cost to be Modern playable.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/m-files-amonkhet-part-2-2017-05-12
Big thanks to Yoni for speaking out about that. No thanks whatsoever to Dave Humphreys for keeping them cycling at 2.
What I hate is when they totally ignore Modern in dubious examples like Eldrazi Winter. They print cards that have obvious synergy with Eternal Format cards and yet they seemingly don't care about them whatsoever.
There's a trend in gaming I have noticed over the years is that old design philosophies get forgotten within companies over the years. With Wotc, they seemingly forgot the whole idea of what Eldrazi were supposed to be. instead of 8+ mana cost creatures that do OP things, they created 4 mana creatures that do OP things. Game designers look back on the past and want to change things, unknowingly these things are what make the game so great.
With Standard, this is what they try and do. They think certain things like UU counter spells or 3 damage for 1 mana are unfair, so they try and change it. So they create a bunch of underpowered cards that don't hit etrernal formats. so then when they make a card like Fatal Push, that is very restricted in use when it comes to the Standard format, it becomes format shifting in another, older format
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
- Hour of Promise
- Solemnity
- Ramunap Excavator
- Abrade
- Claim // Fame
- Hollow One
- Shefet Dunes
These have all seen play in some lists that have done well, or will at least show up in the future. It is better for new cards that enter the format to help niche decks than power up format all-stars. We don't need tons of Fatal Push powered cards.Thoughts on the article?
Agree with the outcome. People (especially the serious competitive crowd) hate variance wins. The salt would flow, even if its 'fine' when put beside other variance cards like Company.
Spirits