Agreed. I don't think the sky is falling, and if Jund had BBE as well, it could play 3 thoughtseize and two maelstrom pulse.
I believe Jace would be fine, but Lantern would almost assuredly need a ban, because it would be really abusing that card.
JTMS existing in Modern, while it is definitely a card the deck would use, it is a card that also extremely hampers Lantern Control.
Sure, as a Lantern player I'd maybe run him as a 1-of in Lantern if he were legal in Modern.
But if Jace were in the format, against any deck playing blue I'd need to rush out a Pithing Needle ASAP to shut Jace down. Being able to Brainstorm every turn is a great way to completely screw over Lantern's plan, not to mention Planeswalkers are the hardest permanents for the deck to deal with. Yes, Lantern has Pithing Needle, but there aren't that many of them. And especially against UW Control, your resources are really taxed trying to keep them off of Cryptic, Sphere, Snapcaster, Geist, Colonnade, Gideon, it's a headache of a match up.
So yeah, in the long run I believe JTMS would hurt Lantern more than help it. And no, Lantern doesn't need any sort of ban.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Agreed. I don't think the sky is falling, and if Jund had BBE as well, it could play 3 thoughtseize and two maelstrom pulse.
I believe Jace would be fine, but Lantern would almost assuredly need a ban, because it would be really abusing that card.
JTMS existing in Modern, while it is definitely a card the deck would use, it is a card that also extremely hampers Lantern Control.
Sure, as a Lantern player I'd maybe run him as a 1-of in Lantern if he were legal in Modern.
But if Jace were in the format, against any deck playing blue I'd need to rush out a Pithing Needle ASAP to shut Jace down. Being able to Brainstorm every turn is a great way to completely screw over Lantern's plan, not to mention Planeswalkers are the hardest permanents for the deck to deal with. Yes, Lantern has Pithing Needle, but there aren't that many of them. And especially against UW Control, your resources are really taxed trying to keep them off of Cryptic, Sphere, Snapcaster, Geist, Colonnade, Gideon, it's a headache of a match up.
So yeah, in the long run I believe JTMS would hurt Lantern more than help it. And no, Lantern doesn't need any sort of ban.
Lantern really doesn't care about Geist, Colonnade, or Gideon. They care in the sense that they are finishers and they need an ensnaring bridge down in order to stop them, but they need a bridge in every game essentially.
They really don't care about JtMS either. Yes if Jace lands without a Pithing Needle on him then he will likely take over the game, but he's a 4 drop and there are a lot of 4 drops that will end the game if lantern doesn't Thoughtseize, Mill, or Needle them. Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Hazoret, the Fervent, Shatterstorm,
I don't think Jace would be as scary as some are thinking. There are far more answers to planeswalkers than there were when Jace ruled the world, and Modern lacks the tools to protect him that Legacy has. He would be strong, but a 4 CMC card that either Brainstorms or Unsummons when it comes out in a format with fairly lackluster counter tools and a fast clock doesn't seem that overwhelming.
Well, Jace wouldn't take over the format. That's a bit absurd, and fearmongering about that is silly. It doesn't really do much to help out against your bad matchups.
The only real danger of Jace is that it may push non-Blue midrange/control decks out. Which, to be fair, is not an unreasonable worry considering those decks are mostly not doing that well right now anyway. Some people have said he might be a problem in Lantern, but I find that dubious. Fatesealing for 4 mana at sorcery speed is not all that impressive when the deck can do that for 1 mana and at Instant speed. Tezzeret seems like a much better 4-mana planeswalker for the deck because he's a very fast win condition (he basically wins the game the turn after you cast him if you don't answer him), whereas Jace is much slower.
I'm currently in the process of buying a new deck and even though Jace isn't that great in my deck's plan, I would for sure clear some SB slots for a few and bite the bullet. For that reason I'm pretty sure we wont see him coming off but ive been wrong before like with Pod and Twin.
No, because a Jace is stronger than Visions has ever been
Midrange decks will consolidate into BUG.
I doubt BUG will be a thing in Modern even with Jace. It's far more likely Grixis or Jeskai become the dominant fair deck than BUG being playable if JTMS is unbanned. I've lost count of how many times people have declared that "card X will finally make BUG good in Modern," but it never happens.
No, because a Jace is stronger than Visions has ever been
Midrange decks will consolidate into BUG.
I doubt BUG will be a thing in Modern even with Jace. It's far more likely Grixis or Jeskai become the dominant fair deck than BUG being playable if JTMS is unbanned. I've lost count of how many times people have declared that "card X will finally make BUG good in Modern," but it never happens.
I second this. I am a big BUG naysayer though. When Modern was announced, I heard of the various Affinity/Jund/Twin decks, but I felt like I'd build a super deck that would destroy the meta - BUG Midrange. I bought Dark Confidants, Vendilion Cliques, and Tarmogoyfs. I ran Snapcaster Mages and even Cryptic Commands. The deck never worked and never got out of testing, sadly enough. It was just a pile of good cards that did its job way worse than the Jund at the time.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
No, because a Jace is stronger than Visions has ever been
Midrange decks will consolidate into BUG.
I doubt BUG will be a thing in Modern even with Jace. It's far more likely Grixis or Jeskai become the dominant fair deck than BUG being playable if JTMS is unbanned. I've lost count of how many times people have declared that "card X will finally make BUG good in Modern," but it never happens.
Well, I don't know if BUG will be the main blue deck, but with Jace ubanned it's by far the best BGx and that's quite sad :/
No, because a Jace is stronger than Visions has ever been
Midrange decks will consolidate into BUG.
I doubt BUG will be a thing in Modern even with Jace. It's far more likely Grixis or Jeskai become the dominant fair deck than BUG being playable if JTMS is unbanned. I've lost count of how many times people have declared that "card X will finally make BUG good in Modern," but it never happens.
Well, I don't know if BUG will be the main blue deck, but with Jace ubanned it's by far the best BGx and that's quite sad :/
The presence and need for a card like lightning bolt makes midrangey blue-ish decks edge into grixis and Jeskai (even rug) before going full BUG colours. Bolt snap bolt is a pretty core way for those decks to edge out a win from nowhere.
I always wanted bug to be a thing in modern but I've long since realised that the impact of bolt on the format means it's a genuinely "leas good" option in the wider metagame. I'm cool with that. Bolt is a sweet card
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
The presence and need for a card like lightning bolt makes midrangey blue-ish decks edge into grixis and Jeskai (even rug) before going full BUG colours. Bolt snap bolt is a pretty core way for those decks to edge out a win from nowhere.
I always wanted bug to be a thing in modern but I've long since realised that the impact of bolt on the format means it's a genuinely "leas good" option in the wider metagame. I'm cool with that. Bolt is a sweet card
It's not just bolt, there's a more fundamental problem with BUG. If you want to play a grindy deck in Modern you have two main options for beating combo decks, which you need to be able to do:
- Play blue and run Cryptic Command.
- Play black and run Thoughtseize.
These two types of decks don't mix. Running both in the same deck is a bad idea, because they want your deck to be built wildly different. Crpytic decks are control decks, and Thoughtseize decks are midrange decks. Green doesn't offer anything good for control in Modern, so BUG has to be a Thoughseize deck. However, the cards blue and green offer to a Thoughtseize deck don't work well together. Tarmogoyf and the the delve creatures (which need blue cantrips to be at their best) compete for the same resource and thus aren't worth playing together.
These two types of decks don't mix. Running both in the same deck is a bad idea, because they want your deck to be built wildly different. Crpytic decks are control decks, and Thoughtseize decks are midrange decks. Green doesn't offer anything good for control in Modern, so BUG has to be a Thoughseize deck. However, the cards blue and green offer to a Thoughtseize deck don't work well together. Tarmogoyf and the the delve creatures (which need blue cantrips to be at their best) compete for the same resource and thus aren't worth playing together.
The presence and need for a card like lightning bolt makes midrangey blue-ish decks edge into grixis and Jeskai (even rug) before going full BUG colours. Bolt snap bolt is a pretty core way for those decks to edge out a win from nowhere.
I always wanted bug to be a thing in modern but I've long since realised that the impact of bolt on the format means it's a genuinely "leas good" option in the wider metagame. I'm cool with that. Bolt is a sweet card
It's not just bolt, there's a more fundamental problem with BUG. If you want to play a grindy deck in Modern you have two main options for beating combo decks, which you need to be able to do:
- Play blue and run Cryptic Command.
- Play black and run Thoughtseize.
These two types of decks don't mix. Running both in the same deck is a bad idea, because they want your deck to be built wildly different. Crpytic decks are control decks, and Thoughtseize decks are midrange decks. Green doesn't offer anything good for control in Modern, so BUG has to be a Thoughseize deck. However, the cards blue and green offer to a Thoughtseize deck don't work well together. Tarmogoyf and the the delve creatures (which need blue cantrips to be at their best) compete for the same resource and thus aren't worth playing together.
Cryptic Command is not how you beat combo. If you want to beat combo with blue you need fast, early interaction.
Cryptic Command is not how you beat combo. If you want to beat combo with blue you need fast, early interaction.
Yeah that was poor phrasing on my part. You don't use Cryptic Command specifically, but Cryptic Command decks use counters to deal with combo and discard is usually bad in them.
Midrange would consolidate into BUG. I don't play enough Jeskai or UW to know what decks would look like.
Jace is that powerful, I think you guys are shrugging off that card too much.
I do agree that the Jund player in Saffrons video played very poorly and kept awful opening hands.
JTMS existing in Modern, while it is definitely a card the deck would use, it is a card that also extremely hampers Lantern Control.
Sure, as a Lantern player I'd maybe run him as a 1-of in Lantern if he were legal in Modern.
But if Jace were in the format, against any deck playing blue I'd need to rush out a Pithing Needle ASAP to shut Jace down. Being able to Brainstorm every turn is a great way to completely screw over Lantern's plan, not to mention Planeswalkers are the hardest permanents for the deck to deal with. Yes, Lantern has Pithing Needle, but there aren't that many of them. And especially against UW Control, your resources are really taxed trying to keep them off of Cryptic, Sphere, Snapcaster, Geist, Colonnade, Gideon, it's a headache of a match up.
So yeah, in the long run I believe JTMS would hurt Lantern more than help it. And no, Lantern doesn't need any sort of ban.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Lantern really doesn't care about Geist, Colonnade, or Gideon. They care in the sense that they are finishers and they need an ensnaring bridge down in order to stop them, but they need a bridge in every game essentially.
They really don't care about JtMS either. Yes if Jace lands without a Pithing Needle on him then he will likely take over the game, but he's a 4 drop and there are a lot of 4 drops that will end the game if lantern doesn't Thoughtseize, Mill, or Needle them. Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Hazoret, the Fervent, Shatterstorm,
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jeffhoogland-02092018-pro-tour-data-dive/
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
The only real danger of Jace is that it may push non-Blue midrange/control decks out. Which, to be fair, is not an unreasonable worry considering those decks are mostly not doing that well right now anyway. Some people have said he might be a problem in Lantern, but I find that dubious. Fatesealing for 4 mana at sorcery speed is not all that impressive when the deck can do that for 1 mana and at Instant speed. Tezzeret seems like a much better 4-mana planeswalker for the deck because he's a very fast win condition (he basically wins the game the turn after you cast him if you don't answer him), whereas Jace is much slower.
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
Why isnt Grixis Control on the first tab of the spreadsheet? Not enough players to count?
Spirits
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
Tron was just a statement/question, unanswered or moved to Urborg.
They wanted the text simple.
I'd love a 2cmc Tron hoser...
Spirits
I doubt BUG will be a thing in Modern even with Jace. It's far more likely Grixis or Jeskai become the dominant fair deck than BUG being playable if JTMS is unbanned. I've lost count of how many times people have declared that "card X will finally make BUG good in Modern," but it never happens.
I second this. I am a big BUG naysayer though. When Modern was announced, I heard of the various Affinity/Jund/Twin decks, but I felt like I'd build a super deck that would destroy the meta - BUG Midrange. I bought Dark Confidants, Vendilion Cliques, and Tarmogoyfs. I ran Snapcaster Mages and even Cryptic Commands. The deck never worked and never got out of testing, sadly enough. It was just a pile of good cards that did its job way worse than the Jund at the time.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Well, I don't know if BUG will be the main blue deck, but with Jace ubanned it's by far the best BGx and that's quite sad :/
The presence and need for a card like lightning bolt makes midrangey blue-ish decks edge into grixis and Jeskai (even rug) before going full BUG colours. Bolt snap bolt is a pretty core way for those decks to edge out a win from nowhere.
I always wanted bug to be a thing in modern but I've long since realised that the impact of bolt on the format means it's a genuinely "leas good" option in the wider metagame. I'm cool with that. Bolt is a sweet card
It's not just bolt, there's a more fundamental problem with BUG. If you want to play a grindy deck in Modern you have two main options for beating combo decks, which you need to be able to do:
- Play blue and run Cryptic Command.
- Play black and run Thoughtseize.
These two types of decks don't mix. Running both in the same deck is a bad idea, because they want your deck to be built wildly different. Crpytic decks are control decks, and Thoughtseize decks are midrange decks. Green doesn't offer anything good for control in Modern, so BUG has to be a Thoughseize deck. However, the cards blue and green offer to a Thoughtseize deck don't work well together. Tarmogoyf and the the delve creatures (which need blue cantrips to be at their best) compete for the same resource and thus aren't worth playing together.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Cryptic Command is not how you beat combo. If you want to beat combo with blue you need fast, early interaction.
EDIT: The new thread can be found here.
- Torpf