tidehollow strix makes that statememt very hard to believe, not to say I dont believe they said that...just dont believe them
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I think the calls for Bridgevine's ban's are WAY premature. I've played the deck a few times now (against it) with a deck not even great against GY strategies (UR Delver) and its not better than Dredge, to me.
I think the calls for Bridgevine's ban's are WAY premature. I've played the deck a few times now (against it) with a deck not even great against GY strategies (UR Delver) and its not better than Dredge, to me.
I've played with the deck. Your good draws are the nuts and your bad draws are like taking a handful of cards from a binder and trying to play with it. It's been like that since dredge got off the ground back in SoI era. It's totally worth building and playing a few times if you have MTGO and got the spare tickets to spend, though.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think the calls for Bridgevine's ban's are WAY premature. I've played the deck a few times now (against it) with a deck not even great against GY strategies (UR Delver) and its not better than Dredge, to me.
I've played with the deck. Your good draws are the nuts and your bad draws are like taking a handful of cards from a binder and trying to play with it. It's been like that since dredge got off the ground back in SoI era. It's totally worth building and playing a few times if you have MTGO and got the spare tickets to spend, though.
Yeah, so its just another Hollow One, that doesnt randomly screw people with Burning Inquiry. I dont know. I'm not impressed so far.
I think the calls for Bridgevine's ban's are WAY premature. I've played the deck a few times now (against it) with a deck not even great against GY strategies (UR Delver) and its not better than Dredge, to me.
I've played with the deck. Your good draws are the nuts and your bad draws are like taking a handful of cards from a binder and trying to play with it. It's been like that since dredge got off the ground back in SoI era. It's totally worth building and playing a few times if you have MTGO and got the spare tickets to spend, though.
That's how I felt so far with the deck, but I've only played 2 PPTQs with it. I've noticed in further testing, it still is vulnerable to being raced by quicker decks, like Storm and Counters Company. Affinity with a Plated lifelinker or Bogles with lifelink also can give the deck fits.
Pretty darn good against Control and Midrange though.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I know this is changing topics, but does anyone else find it odd that enchantments are the only permanent type that can only be destroyed/exiled by two colors of the color pie instead of 3+? It's something I've been aware of for a long time, as I tend to gravitate towards Grixis decks, and Grixis colors have 0 ways to permanently deal with a resolved enchantment. Enchantment destruction is only in white and green. Meanwhile, Creatures can be destroyed in all 5 colors to some degree; artifacts by red, white, and green; Planeswalkers by black, red, green, and white; and lands by white, red, and green.
I thought of this again when I read a comment in the ban/unban thread about Blood Moon, how part of the problem of Blood Moon is that red can't destroy enchantments, so Blood Moon kind of protects itself. I think I would actually like to see enchantment destruction given to blue. Blue can't really deal with anything else after it's resolved, so it would give it a new angle since they've powered down everything else that blue does these days. Also, enchantments are kind of like persistent magical spells, so blue destroying them would be like them dispelling the persistent spell, so it works on a flavor level. Any thoughts?
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I know this is changing topics, but does anyone else find it odd that enchantments are the only permanent type that can only be destroyed/exiled by two colors of the color pie instead of 3+? It's something I've been aware of for a long time, as I tend to gravitate towards Grixis decks, and Grixis colors have 0 ways to permanently deal with a resolved enchantment. Enchantment destruction is only in white and green. Meanwhile, Creatures can be destroyed in all 5 colors to some degree; artifacts by red, white, and green; Planeswalkers by black, red, green, and white; and lands by white, red, and green.
I thought of this again when I read a comment in the ban/unban thread about Blood Moon, how part of the problem of Blood Moon is that red can't destroy enchantments, so Blood Moon kind of protects itself. I think I would actually like to see enchantment destruction given to blue. Blue can't really deal with anything else after it's resolved, so it would give it a new angle since they've powered down everything else that blue does these days. Also, enchantments are kind of like persistent magical spells, so blue destroying them would be like them dispelling the persistent spell, so it works on a flavor level. Any thoughts?
I do think this is odd. You might want to bring it up with Rosewater on his tumblr, since he's very big about the colour pie.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
@wraith, Blue is never getting enchantment removal, neither is black, or blue.
The closer one can get is to ask for a better Perilous Voyage, but that's that. U is only getting bounce cards. Alternatively, one can play colourless cards like Engineered Explosives or destroy all permanent effects like Apocalypse(which is not Modern legal I believe-and find cards like this one).
You can ask Maro, and he will almost surely give you this exact answer.
I think I remember someone, might have been Maro, saying that red can't destroy enchantments because the color is too dumb, basically. They can smash artifacts and fling fireballs, but they don't know what to do with a persistent magical spell like an enchantment. I know that blue usually only gets bounce spells, but from a flavor perspective, if enchantments are supposed to be persistent spells, doesn't it make sense that blue should be able to undo them? I think it makes sense, and I really think enchantment destruction needs to be opened up to a third color anyway.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
@wraith, Blue is never getting enchantment removal, neither is black, or blue.
The closer one can get is to ask for a better Perilous Voyage, but that's that. U is only getting bounce cards. Alternatively, one can play colourless cards like Engineered Explosives or destroy all permanent effects like Apocalypse(which is not Modern legal I believe-and find cards like this one).
You can ask Maro, and he will almost surely give you this exact answer.
I think I remember someone, might have been Maro, saying that red can't destroy enchantments because the color is too dumb, basically. They can smash artifacts and fling fireballs, but they don't know what to do with a persistent magical spell like an enchantment. I know that blue usually only gets bounce spells, but from a flavor perspective, if enchantments are supposed to be persistent spells, doesn't it make sense that blue should be able to undo them? I think it makes sense, and I really think enchantment destruction needs to be opened up to a third color anyway.
I am confused. Artifact destruction is in R, G. Enchantments destruction is in G,W.
2 for both. Seems fair. Nothing is going to change in that department. Disenchant is a colour shifted time spiral card, don't forget.
@wraith, Blue is never getting enchantment removal, neither is black, or blue.
The closer one can get is to ask for a better Perilous Voyage, but that's that. U is only getting bounce cards. Alternatively, one can play colourless cards like Engineered Explosives or destroy all permanent effects like Apocalypse(which is not Modern legal I believe-and find cards like this one).
You can ask Maro, and he will almost surely give you this exact answer.
I think I remember someone, might have been Maro, saying that red can't destroy enchantments because the color is too dumb, basically. They can smash artifacts and fling fireballs, but they don't know what to do with a persistent magical spell like an enchantment. I know that blue usually only gets bounce spells, but from a flavor perspective, if enchantments are supposed to be persistent spells, doesn't it make sense that blue should be able to undo them? I think it makes sense, and I really think enchantment destruction needs to be opened up to a third color anyway.
I am confused. Artifact destruction is in R, G. Enchantments destruction is in G,W.
2 for both. Seems fair. Nothing is going to change in that department. Disenchant is a colour shifted time spiral card, don't forget.
Um... no. Disenchant has been around since Alpha. Naturalize is a colorshifted Disenchant. Disenchant was a Timeshifted card in Timespiral, though.
As to the balance of enchantment destruction vs Artifact Destruction... I don't really see an issue. Anyone can use artifacts. You are exponentially more likely to run across a deck centered around artifacts than you are one about enchantments. It makes sense for more colors to have access to artifact destruction. Bogles is probably the most prominent enchantment themed deck in modern, and it's still pretty rare. Plus, enchantment hate is much stronger than most artifact hate. Compare Shatterstorm to Back to Nature or Tempest of Light
Blue has bounce. I generally think enchantments are so bad it's fine that their removal is rarer. There's even a blue spell that only bounces encbantments.
I'd not mind seeing some more bouncing or stax effects but I've lost to grixis snapping back a cryptic with my enchantment effects more than once.
Gk you're wrong, tons of art hate in New white. See fragmentize for example. An there's that enchantment that exiles all artifacts for a while. And I'm sure more.
I think blue and black together should be able to handle problem nonland permanents tbh. I mean the concept of recoil is ingenious where blue and black representation in the card is that they work together in their on-brand methods to get past obstacles-blue bounces the threat and black pressures the hand to potentially remove the threat. So we have this card Consign//oblivion However the mana cost of that card is very clunky and unlikely to resolve actual problems in modern (or standard, as I havent seen it in successful lists). My point is, I think these other colors SHOULD be able to deal with almost everything, its just that you have to play through the limitations of the color identity from a design standpoint.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
From 8th edition onwards: R/G destroy artifacts. W/G destroy enchantments.
Disagree. White has been getting artifact removal since 8th, white has had plenty artifact removal since 8th.
Decommission, Disenchant, Divine Offering, Fragmentize, Invoke the Divine, Solemn Offering, and Terashi's Grasp are all modern legal artifact removal. Not only that but you can see how some are improvements on past versions of themselves. WotC has been actively scaling up white's ability to remove artifacts; not as a major piece of their color identity, but as a distant side show.
Saying white has no additional artifact removal since 8th/time spiral is flat wrong. Bring up cards like Engineered Explosives is almost laughable because of how the card interacts with Blood Moon itself. How do you get 3 colors of mana when you're only allowed Mountains?
I'm not trying to call out Blood Moon as some rampant force in Modern, but it's a card that hoses your opponent to such a high degree and then protects itself while being the most difficult permanent type to remove. In addition to that, it can easily be rushed into play by more than a few of the decks that like to run it. Literally no other card in the format is so devastating on its own.
Counter argument is that Blood Moon punishes greedy mana bases. That's pretty true, but punish and create non-games are hugely different in my opinion. I know if I'm on Grixis and my opponent gets Moon down, I might as well not waste my time. The pile of 10ish cards I can still play will not win me the game vs their 60 card deck.
I'll repeat what I said in the other thread: "If mountains could destroy enchantments Blood Moon would be fine by me." Highlight that I am talking about Blood Moon and not the lack of enchant hate. I would also accept if Blood Moon made everything into Forests; at least then it activates a chance that you have an out instead of being laughed at and told to Sunburst 3 to remove it or wait to have a huge amount of mana.
Edit2: If another color were given the ability to destroy enchantments I think this would be a non-issue. It's not my first choice as a fix, but I think it works. You'll notice that of all the white removal only 2 or 3 of those options require WW in the cost with most being just W, this shows that white artifact removal is no stretch for the color, otherwise we'd see some hefty white costs. If similar were given to Blue or Black for a single color cost, then I think this would also solve my issue with Moon.
Ummm... no. Disenchant was a real card for the first magic sets. From 8th edition forward(which is in 2003, and the start of Modern era) the colour pie changed and W stopped having destroy artifact effects.
(White can imprison cards temporarily, as long as it remains on the battlefield though that's a different thing).
Then Time Spiral happened and Disenchant was printed as a colour shifted card, since this wasn't in it's colour pie anymore.
That said, regarding Modern, Disenchant is a colour shifted card that is outside of W's colour pie, from 8th edition onwards.
It's never happened again in a regular set (outside of Master, promo FNM, or other special sets of course), and it's not happening again.
Mate, you're conflating time shifted cards, like Claws of Gix and Disenchant with color shifted cards, like Akroma, Angel of Fury. Also, as has been made abundantly clear: White has wide and deep access to cheap artifact removal in Modern.
From 8th edition onwards: R/G destroy artifacts. W/G destroy enchantments.
Disagree. White has been getting artifact removal since 8th, white has had plenty artifact removal since 8th.
Decommission, Disenchant, Divine Offering, Fragmentize, Invoke the Divine, Solemn Offering, and Terashi's Grasp are all modern legal artifact removal. Not only that but you can see how some are improvements on past versions of themselves. WotC has been actively scaling up white's ability to remove artifacts; not as a major piece of their color identity, but as a distant side show.
Saying white has no additional artifact removal since 8th/time spiral is flat wrong. Bring up cards like Engineered Explosives is almost laughable because of how the card interacts with Blood Moon itself. How do you get 3 colors of mana when you're only allowed Mountains?
I'm not trying to call out Blood Moon as some rampant force in Modern, but it's a card that hoses your opponent to such a high degree and then protects itself while being the most difficult permanent type to remove. In addition to that, it can easily be rushed into play by more than a few of the decks that like to run it. Literally no other card in the format is so devastating on its own.
Counter argument is that Blood Moon punishes greedy mana bases. That's pretty true, but punish and create non-games are hugely different in my opinion. I know if I'm on Grixis and my opponent gets Moon down, I might as well not waste my time. The pile of 10ish cards I can still play will not win me the game vs their 60 card deck.
I'll repeat what I said in the other thread: "If mountains could destroy enchantments Blood Moon would be fine by me." Highlight that I am talking about Blood Moon and not the lack of enchant hate. I would also accept if Blood Moon made everything into Forests; at least then it activates a chance that you have an out instead of being laughed at and told to Sunburst 3 to remove it or wait to have a huge amount of mana.
Edit2: If another color were given the ability to destroy enchantments I think this would be a non-issue. It's not my first choice as a fix, but I think it works. You'll notice that of all the white removal only 2 or 3 of those options require WW in the cost with most being just W, this shows that white artifact removal is no stretch for the color, otherwise we'd see some hefty white costs. If similar were given to Blue or Black for a single color cost, then I think this would also solve my issue with Moon.
100x this. Can't be better said. If you think about it, creatures are the easiest to remove, every color has creature removal to some extend. Blue never had straight creature removal, only variants like rapid hybridization, green never had that either, only creature fights another creature or destroy target flying creature. Then planeswalkers are arguably the second easiest to remove, since you can destroy it via creature attacking, direct damange, or destroy/exile effects. artifact hate exists in R/G/W, so that's not problematic at all. Enchantment, like artifact, can only be removed through direct spells, and bouncing them don't do much.
There isn't too much an issue these days with enchantments since most don't have immediate impact. The game has changed so much in modern that setting up for something just isn't as viable as throwing things at someone that demand immediate interaction. The main thing going for them is how hard they are to interact with.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The thing is, blue gets access to counterspells. Those have the ability to say “NO” to any card. The idea is that blue deals with problems BEFORE they’re a problem. It requires you to play reactively, which isn’t generally a great strategy in Modern, but it does have access to answers for any card type.
Its removal of choice is bounce effects, which makes sense in conjunction with counterspells... it’s a solution set that has a very small window of time to work and they become very inefficient if you miss that window.
"5 color humans is unfair because it has all these rainbow lands, it shouldn't have perfect mana!"
"Blood Moon is evil!'
Just saying...
It does seem pretty suspect, I'll admit. And I do dislike both Humans.dec and Moon for exactly the reasons you elude to, but I don't see an issue with it. They're just to extremes of the same issue, in my opinion; insane 12 rainbow lands and Vial with no drawbacks on one side, and 3 mana ultimate land hate/prison card on the other. The comparable spell based cards are a Legendary Land that costs 2 life, EtBs tapped, and doesn't color fix (for Cavern) and a 3 mana Enchantment (for Vial). Feels like a silly comparison, but not one I want to try to push because the vial comparison is decent at best.
For the most part I don't think Humans is an issue in the meta. They can have their 12 lands, there are plenty of ways to hurt the Humans deck. Only some of their nut draws really irk me, but even then they have to make a bunch of choices and I can't fault too much of that.
The thing is, blue gets access to counterspells. Those have the ability to say “NO” to any card. The idea is that blue deals with problems BEFORE they’re a problem. It requires you to play reactively, which isn’t generally a great strategy in Modern, but it does have access to answers for any card type.
Let's not in any way insinuate that Blue has any reasonable advantage because it plays counterspells. Especially when cards like Cavern of Souls exists, as well as Aether Vial, uncounterable cards, and devistating on-casttriggers. Never mind the discardspells that can simply remove them or the huge number of recursion decks that simply don't care about things going to the yard.
Edit: Forgot to also mention activated/triggered abilities that simply cannot be meaningfully or profitably interacted with by counterspells. Since we don't have Stifle, our only options are bad Counterspell, bad Vendillion Clique, or hope to draw some relevant, narrow hate card in games 2 and 3.
Looking at the ban/unban poll, it’s notable that 100% of the potentially problematic cards there are either red or “colorless.” Stirrings is green of course, but it’s only powerful and controversial because it grabs colorless cards. The only other exception is bridge/vine—both of which only work in the deck in question as a result of Faithless Looting (a red card) and the colorless xx cost artifacts. (Neither bridge nor vine will EVER actually get cast for their listed mana costs.)
The thing is, blue gets access to counterspells. Those have the ability to say “NO” to any card. The idea is that blue deals with problems BEFORE they’re a problem. It requires you to play reactively, which isn’t generally a great strategy in Modern, but it does have access to answers for any card type.
Let's not in any way insinuate that Blue has any reasonable advantage because it plays counterspells. Especially when cards like Cavern of Souls exists, as well as Aether Vial, uncounterable cards, and devistating on-casttriggers. Never mind the discardspells that can simply remove them or the huge number of recursion decks that simply don't care about things going to the yard.
Edit: Forgot to also mention activated/triggered abilities that simply cannot be meaningfully or profitably interacted with by counterspells. Since we don't have Stifle, our only options are bad Counterspell, bad Vendillion Clique, or hope to draw some relevant, narrow hate card in games 2 and 3.
Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. I wasn't trying to claim that Counterpsells are great in Modern. I've sleeved up counters in Modern enough times to know exactly how limited they are. My argument wasn't for how strong blue is (because it's resoundingly mediocre in Modern), but that it doesn't necessarily deserve to have "destroy target enchantment" added to its color pie. Counterspells were supposed to be their relevant interaction for enchantments, but they've made counters increasingly less useful over the years, but I think that's a separate issue. Counters SHOULD be better in Modern. I'd like to see blue get more of the "exile target spell" phrasing on Instants... and not stapled to creatures like Spell Queller.
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UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Don't have a source on me right now but as I recall, it's been stated as being too efficient and good at stalling to make it into Standard.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Spirits
I've played with the deck. Your good draws are the nuts and your bad draws are like taking a handful of cards from a binder and trying to play with it. It's been like that since dredge got off the ground back in SoI era. It's totally worth building and playing a few times if you have MTGO and got the spare tickets to spend, though.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah, so its just another Hollow One, that doesnt randomly screw people with Burning Inquiry. I dont know. I'm not impressed so far.
Spirits
That's how I felt so far with the deck, but I've only played 2 PPTQs with it. I've noticed in further testing, it still is vulnerable to being raced by quicker decks, like Storm and Counters Company. Affinity with a Plated lifelinker or Bogles with lifelink also can give the deck fits.
Pretty darn good against Control and Midrange though.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I thought of this again when I read a comment in the ban/unban thread about Blood Moon, how part of the problem of Blood Moon is that red can't destroy enchantments, so Blood Moon kind of protects itself. I think I would actually like to see enchantment destruction given to blue. Blue can't really deal with anything else after it's resolved, so it would give it a new angle since they've powered down everything else that blue does these days. Also, enchantments are kind of like persistent magical spells, so blue destroying them would be like them dispelling the persistent spell, so it works on a flavor level. Any thoughts?
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I do think this is odd. You might want to bring it up with Rosewater on his tumblr, since he's very big about the colour pie.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
disenchanthas been there since alpha....
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
Um... no. Disenchant has been around since Alpha. Naturalize is a colorshifted Disenchant. Disenchant was a Timeshifted card in Timespiral, though.
As to the balance of enchantment destruction vs Artifact Destruction... I don't really see an issue. Anyone can use artifacts. You are exponentially more likely to run across a deck centered around artifacts than you are one about enchantments. It makes sense for more colors to have access to artifact destruction. Bogles is probably the most prominent enchantment themed deck in modern, and it's still pretty rare. Plus, enchantment hate is much stronger than most artifact hate. Compare Shatterstorm to Back to Nature or Tempest of Light
I'd not mind seeing some more bouncing or stax effects but I've lost to grixis snapping back a cryptic with my enchantment effects more than once.
Gk you're wrong, tons of art hate in New white. See fragmentize for example. An there's that enchantment that exiles all artifacts for a while. And I'm sure more.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Decommission, Disenchant, Divine Offering, Fragmentize, Invoke the Divine, Solemn Offering, and Terashi's Grasp are all modern legal artifact removal. Not only that but you can see how some are improvements on past versions of themselves. WotC has been actively scaling up white's ability to remove artifacts; not as a major piece of their color identity, but as a distant side show.
Saying white has no additional artifact removal since 8th/time spiral is flat wrong. Bring up cards like Engineered Explosives is almost laughable because of how the card interacts with Blood Moon itself. How do you get 3 colors of mana when you're only allowed Mountains?
I'm not trying to call out Blood Moon as some rampant force in Modern, but it's a card that hoses your opponent to such a high degree and then protects itself while being the most difficult permanent type to remove. In addition to that, it can easily be rushed into play by more than a few of the decks that like to run it. Literally no other card in the format is so devastating on its own.
Counter argument is that Blood Moon punishes greedy mana bases. That's pretty true, but punish and create non-games are hugely different in my opinion. I know if I'm on Grixis and my opponent gets Moon down, I might as well not waste my time. The pile of 10ish cards I can still play will not win me the game vs their 60 card deck.
I'll repeat what I said in the other thread: "If mountains could destroy enchantments Blood Moon would be fine by me." Highlight that I am talking about Blood Moon and not the lack of enchant hate. I would also accept if Blood Moon made everything into Forests; at least then it activates a chance that you have an out instead of being laughed at and told to Sunburst 3 to remove it or wait to have a huge amount of mana.
Edit: The above list of artifact removal does not account for the various "Exile target artifact" options also available to white. They are Revoke Existence, Ironwright's Cleansing, Fate Forgotten, Forsake the Worldly, Angelic Purge, Altar's Light, and Return to Dust. You'll notice a similar theme that these get better and better as time goes on.
Edit2: If another color were given the ability to destroy enchantments I think this would be a non-issue. It's not my first choice as a fix, but I think it works. You'll notice that of all the white removal only 2 or 3 of those options require WW in the cost with most being just W, this shows that white artifact removal is no stretch for the color, otherwise we'd see some hefty white costs. If similar were given to Blue or Black for a single color cost, then I think this would also solve my issue with Moon.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Mate, you're conflating time shifted cards, like Claws of Gix and Disenchant with color shifted cards, like Akroma, Angel of Fury. Also, as has been made abundantly clear: White has wide and deep access to cheap artifact removal in Modern.
100x this. Can't be better said. If you think about it, creatures are the easiest to remove, every color has creature removal to some extend. Blue never had straight creature removal, only variants like rapid hybridization, green never had that either, only creature fights another creature or destroy target flying creature. Then planeswalkers are arguably the second easiest to remove, since you can destroy it via creature attacking, direct damange, or destroy/exile effects. artifact hate exists in R/G/W, so that's not problematic at all. Enchantment, like artifact, can only be removed through direct spells, and bouncing them don't do much.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
"Blood Moon is evil!'
Just saying...
Its removal of choice is bounce effects, which makes sense in conjunction with counterspells... it’s a solution set that has a very small window of time to work and they become very inefficient if you miss that window.
For the most part I don't think Humans is an issue in the meta. They can have their 12 lands, there are plenty of ways to hurt the Humans deck. Only some of their nut draws really irk me, but even then they have to make a bunch of choices and I can't fault too much of that.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Let's not in any way insinuate that Blue has any reasonable advantage because it plays counterspells. Especially when cards like Cavern of Souls exists, as well as Aether Vial, uncounterable cards, and devistating on-cast triggers. Never mind the discard spells that can simply remove them or the huge number of recursion decks that simply don't care about things going to the yard.
Edit: Forgot to also mention activated/triggered abilities that simply cannot be meaningfully or profitably interacted with by counterspells. Since we don't have Stifle, our only options are bad Counterspell, bad Vendillion Clique, or hope to draw some relevant, narrow hate card in games 2 and 3.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Discard is just a necessary foil to counters. What's the circle? "Counters > Permanents > Discard > Counters"
"Reveal a Dragon"
Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. I wasn't trying to claim that Counterpsells are great in Modern. I've sleeved up counters in Modern enough times to know exactly how limited they are. My argument wasn't for how strong blue is (because it's resoundingly mediocre in Modern), but that it doesn't necessarily deserve to have "destroy target enchantment" added to its color pie. Counterspells were supposed to be their relevant interaction for enchantments, but they've made counters increasingly less useful over the years, but I think that's a separate issue. Counters SHOULD be better in Modern. I'd like to see blue get more of the "exile target spell" phrasing on Instants... and not stapled to creatures like Spell Queller.