Oh, it definitely is useful. But testing is probably the most surefire way to find out what's okay and what's not. You would need multiple people testing and they would have to be as unbiased as humanly possible.
The problem with conjecture is something like Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I swear to God that I heard more than 50% of Modern players saying that it would "break the format." I myself believed it to be better than it currently is, although maybe UW Control is getting it to that. Some people think that Umezawa's Jitte or artifact lands (KCI lol) or Deathrite Shaman are okay. I personally think that Gitaxian Probe is okay, but it looks like Wizards has their own Crusade against that card. Not everyone can get everything right is my point. Right now I'm pretty pissed about the Legacy bannings, but in a few weeks, I probably will enjoy the format better.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Sure but look at Teferi vs Karn? On paper everyone was saying Karn was better right and the price certainly bore that out? But now who is the best? In standard you got R, BR, UW, UB, UBw...Teferi is in two of those decks. Karn is MIA and Modern its the same story. Teferi has brought UWx control back from the wilderness not alone sure but Karn cannot even get a cameo and its not like Modern isn't overrun with colorless decks.
I suppose it shows the Default Walker design is boring sure but it does make effective cards. Cost 3 to 4: + Draw, - Removal, Ult, Win Eventually. Be interesting to see if WOTC can vary that format and also make strong walkers besides Gideon.
I honestly don't blame them from a business perspective; it is clearly the right thing to do. But as a player it is ridiculously frustrating to beg for a SFM unban for 3 years, finally have nearly the entire community agree, and still have it not matter one bit.
The entire community has only agreed on Stoneforge Mystic relatively recently, though.
In fact, Modern players have little to complain about in regards to Stoneforge Mystic when compared to Legacy players. It's been the opinion of the Legacy community for several years now (compared to the several months for SFM) that Frantic Search and Earthcraft are totally innocuous cards (certainly more so than Stoneforge Mystic would be in Modern), and Wizards of the Coast has constantly refused to unban them, even when they have banned cards and thus had an excuse to adjust the banlist.
Oh, it definitely is useful. But testing is probably the most surefire way to find out what's okay and what's not. You would need multiple people testing and they would have to be as unbiased as humanly possible.
The problem with conjecture is something like Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I swear to God that I heard more than 50% of Modern players saying that it would "break the format." I myself believed it to be better than it currently is, although maybe UW Control is getting it to that. Some people think that Umezawa's Jitte or artifact lands (KCI lol) or Deathrite Shaman are okay. I personally think that Gitaxian Probe is okay, but it looks like Wizards has their own Crusade against that card. Not everyone can get everything right is my point. Right now I'm pretty pissed about the Legacy bannings, but in a few weeks, I probably will enjoy the format better.
Jitte would probably be okay, it's just not really a card that brings anything positive. It's inherently self-regulating because the better it is in a deck, the worse that deck is when facing an opponent's Umezawa's Jitte (similarly, the decks that Umezawa's Jitte is weak against are decks that can't really get much usage out of it). The problem is what while Jitte is self-regulating as I noted, it turns creature deck mirrors into "who connects with their Jitte first?" meaning there's not really any positive effect it can have on the format. It's even worse now under the new legend rule because you can't use your Jitte to remove an opponent's Jitte.
Yeah Jitte is an inconsistency in the banned list but one I'm grateful for.
I don't play Legacy but given how Deathrite was a favorite card and it was its last bastion it is sad to see it go instead of just banning Delver which would have been very good riddance. That said, I smile when I remember that pro who said Deathrite was good because it gives him access to 4 colours while also giving him a maindeck way to combat such unfair stuff like the Lands deck or Blood Moon.
A little sad to see no changes, although considering the two fires on the other formats while also the fact that M19 did throw some bones promise a brighter future, although meanwhile it is going to funny if Tron is pushed out by the hate that KCI will proceed to ignore while going off.
Simply put, Jitte turns creature decks (cough, cough, nearly most of Modern) to devolve into "who got it, put it on their creature, and got counters on it first." If that's me, I won the game. If that's you, you won the game.
Don't get me wrong. I like broken Magic. If and when Stoneforge gets unbanned, I wouldn't mind playing it with Jitte. The main problem is that everyone else will also. Why would you not? (okay, Tron and a couple other decks don't care)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Does anyone have access to the decks that Top 8'd the No Banlist Modern event a few weeks back? I know Eldrazi decks dominated, but I'd be interest to see what other decks fared the best, and what banned cards saw the most use.
i thought the evaluations of karn that i saw were pretty spot on. its a card advantage engine for decks in colors that have few options for such a thing, and outside of that it would see minimal play in decks that can leverage the artifact synergy. we see that in application. tron decks play a few copies in the sideboard, and affinity can play a couple copies for another angle of attack without it taking the deck over the top.
teferi was admittedly under-evaluated. however there wasnt a single person i saw that said it would be too good, or push control over the top; and it hasnt. you didnt need to extensively test the card to see that it wouldnt be too good, because there is a limit on what a 5-mana sorcery speed play can do. partially because control has limitations before teferi can even become a factor.
id consider it somewhat the same for stoneforge mystic. we can debate whether it would become an actual format staple that would lift decks up, homogenizes white decks too much, or see little to no play at all. however the properties of the card mostly precludes it from taking over the format. its a creature that requires you to untap with it, gets an artifact, and is primarily played in slower fair/grindier decks. the format has all the tools and then some to keep that in check; both in cards and strategies/decks.
so yeah i agree that we cant account for everything, but its not like card evaluation isnt something you can approach rationally and come to a conclusion that approximates the truth of things. testing, while being better, simply has too many variables that you cant control; making the results suspect for the amount of effort required. there is a reason (i assume) that wizards isnt spending thousands of man hours testing every card they design.
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I agree in the sense that there is stuff you can do besides testing via the card or proxy. You can and should analyze it on its face (cost, colors, abilities, existing deck archtypes, etc). Testing is basically impossible takes too much time and there are way too many cards to account for across way too many formats. I basically covered that as well we know what make a strong Walker in a vacuum: Card Advantage, Protection, and a Win Con with a cheap cost usually 3-4. The major exceptions for Modern are Karn and Ugin cause well they play in a deck that usually has enough mana to cast them on Turn 3 or 4 so they might as well cost 3 or 4. Teferi basically reads CMC 3 but can only be played on turn 5 or later.
Does anyone have access to the decks that Top 8'd the No Banlist Modern event a few weeks back? I know Eldrazi decks dominated, but I'd be interest to see what other decks fared the best, and what banned cards saw the most use.
Confusingly, this link used to lead to it, but it doesn't anymore (this is still the link listed on their coverage page). Still, if you set their search up right it'll show you the decks, so here you go.
I've seen a few posts in this thread suggesting or stating that Modern is secretly unhealthy, and/or Wizards isn't evaluating Modern health at all, and/or something else should have been banned. We can speculate on some hidden Wizards agenda all we want, but the update literally addresses these concerns:
"While there are no changes to other formats at this time, we do continue to monitor the health of Modern, Vintage, and Pauper. Across the board, those formats are looking quite healthy right now."
First, they clarify that they are evaluating Modern health even if the update doesn't focus on Modern. Second, and far more notably, they describe Modern as "quite healthy." What more do we need? I know we would probably want more regarding data, metagame shares, etc. but I'm happy getting a check-in at all. We're 1.5 years into a banless period of healthy Modern and it's great to see that Wizards still continues this to be healthy. We may disagree with that, but we have a measuring stick, especially at the GP level.
Greetings, I am new to these forums so forgive me if i do something wrong here.
I'm fairly surprised nothing was said about stirrings. There's been talk about it for a while and when KCI started to gain traction I figured it would push the ban. It's not like it's an oppressing card in any way but it does allow for more consistency in early turn win decks like tron and KCI.
Also disappointed about no preordain or ponder unban by the logic of them keeping stirrings in.
That's because despite a few people talking loudly about it, there's actually no reason for stirrings to see a ban. It's recently become a popular scapegoat in online discussions, but i challenge you to actually find a single reasonable argument for banning the card that fits with how we understand WotC's criteria for removing cards from the format. Remember, bans are damaging, and an action of last resort for issues that can't self-correct.
Basically, it's all hot air. I mean, if you want a crystal clear example of this, just check out Paolo Vitor Damo da Rosa's latest article on channel fireball where he talks about stirrings. It's an undignified moan about what he personally dislikes, with zero attempt to substantiate it. If that's indicative of general opinion then gawd help us all lol.
Also, just FYI there's no link between ponder/preordain and stirrings. I see this comparison get made a lot and it's spurious. Ponder and preordain are on the list due to modern having a critical mass of enablers for blue-based combo decks. They aren't there purely based on power level and it's self-defeating to compare stirrings to those cards based on (subjective) reasoning that doesn't even match up with why those cards are banned in the first place. The whole "why does stirrings get to be legal when preordain is banned" argument is a complete red-herring. Don't engage with it.
I see it this way too, but you have to understand that players defending Ancient Stirrings (and purklepuff is a very smart dude from what I gather) will always be able to point to the deck restriction (colorless, albeit also getting lands) as making it much worse than Preordain. I personally don't see it like that, but I've always loved Preordain, Ponder, Brainstorm, etc. - type cards, thus I can admit my extreme bias.
For what it's worth, I've been trying the deck "Eternal Devote." This deck is basically a Devoted Druid/Vizier of Remedies deck, aka Turbo Vizier, using Hall of the Bandit Lord and a bunch of "tutors." I will say that even in this deck, Ancient Stirrings is quite powerful. I would say it's more powerful than Adventurous Impulse, but not close to Traverse the Ulvenwald. Keep in mind that I'm talking specifically about this deck. However, seeing the use of the card even in this deck, digging 5 cards deep for Hall of the Bandit Lord, other land, Mishra's Bauble, or Walking Ballista, makes me see the raw power of Ancient Stirrings. Perhaps it is all right? I actually believe that it is. But I also believe that Preordain is fine. I really can't see it doing anything back breaking in Modern. Sure, more players may try Storm and Caleb Sherer and Paul Muller will win some events. But then, that would probably have happened anyway. They are indeed amazing, dedicated Storm players.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think the Challenge events generally are in the 100-150 range, whereas the MOCS and PTQs are in the 300-400. I remember the PTQ last month having 384 players which was just a hair below going to 10 rounds.
Ross Merriam wrote an interesting article for SCG today about Tron, with a significant portion of it pointing to why people hate it and how people are blinded by their own biases about certain decks and archetypes. I liked reading it.
Ross Merriam wrote an interesting article for SCG today about Tron, with a significant portion of it pointing to why people hate it and how people are blinded by their own biases about certain decks and archetypes. I liked reading it.
Just read the article. Good read.
I actually kind of hope and pray more people flock to Tron. I would love to play Turns again, although I'm not quite sure why I quit in the first place. It's much better than people flocking to Humans, which shuts me out of certain decks that I like to play.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Ross Merriam wrote an interesting article for SCG today about Tron, with a significant portion of it pointing to why people hate it and how people are blinded by their own biases about certain decks and archetypes. I liked reading it.
Just read the article. Good read.
I actually kind of hope and pray more people flock to Tron. I would love to play Turns again, although I'm not quite sure why I quit in the first place. It's much better than people flocking to Humans, which shuts me out of certain decks that I like to play.
I cannot continue playing Turns more than a week or 2, the salt is bad for my health.
As to hating Tron, yes, people hate it irrationally, just like Bogles. He is right many of us will be happy for the 10 days following the Stirrings (eventual) ban.
Ross Merriam wrote an interesting article for SCG today about Tron, with a significant portion of it pointing to why people hate it and how people are blinded by their own biases about certain decks and archetypes. I liked reading it.
Just read the article. Good read.
I actually kind of hope and pray more people flock to Tron. I would love to play Turns again, although I'm not quite sure why I quit in the first place. It's much better than people flocking to Humans, which shuts me out of certain decks that I like to play.
I cannot continue playing Turns more than a week or 2, the salt is bad for my health.
As to hating Tron, yes, people hate it irrationally, just like Bogles. He is right many of us will be happy for the 10 days following the Stirrings (eventual) ban.
You left out the part where many of those happy people will just become miserable at whatever else is winning
Let's remember that the current Modern is "quite healthy." So whatever metagame presence we have for various decks since the last B&R update is considered to be totally fine. This includes the Stirrings decks, even if I personally see a significant contradiction between that card being legal and Preordain being banned. I still expect one of those two things to change in the next 6-8 months. But until we see sizable shifts, I'm just going to assume Wizards treats the cards differently and I'm comfortable respecting that treatment.
This includes the Stirrings decks, even if I personally see a significant contradiction between that card being legal and Preordain being banned. I still expect one of those two things to change in the next 6-8 months.
This is the obvious problem. We've already had 3 months since the last change to the format, and the previous years of experience to boot. I really hope of all the posts I have ever made this is the one WotC reads. If it takes you 8 months to change a banned list, it takes a person 20 minutes to gather their collection to sell entirely. Wizards as a company trying to bait us with changes for periods of time is not worth the long term community deficits.
Do you mind elaborating a little more? I think I know what you're getting at, but am also unsure.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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The problem with conjecture is something like Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I swear to God that I heard more than 50% of Modern players saying that it would "break the format." I myself believed it to be better than it currently is, although maybe UW Control is getting it to that. Some people think that Umezawa's Jitte or artifact lands (KCI lol) or Deathrite Shaman are okay. I personally think that Gitaxian Probe is okay, but it looks like Wizards has their own Crusade against that card. Not everyone can get everything right is my point. Right now I'm pretty pissed about the Legacy bannings, but in a few weeks, I probably will enjoy the format better.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I suppose it shows the Default Walker design is boring sure but it does make effective cards. Cost 3 to 4: + Draw, - Removal, Ult, Win Eventually. Be interesting to see if WOTC can vary that format and also make strong walkers besides Gideon.
In fact, Modern players have little to complain about in regards to Stoneforge Mystic when compared to Legacy players. It's been the opinion of the Legacy community for several years now (compared to the several months for SFM) that Frantic Search and Earthcraft are totally innocuous cards (certainly more so than Stoneforge Mystic would be in Modern), and Wizards of the Coast has constantly refused to unban them, even when they have banned cards and thus had an excuse to adjust the banlist.
I don't play Legacy but given how Deathrite was a favorite card and it was its last bastion it is sad to see it go instead of just banning Delver which would have been very good riddance. That said, I smile when I remember that pro who said Deathrite was good because it gives him access to 4 colours while also giving him a maindeck way to combat such unfair stuff like the Lands deck or Blood Moon.
A little sad to see no changes, although considering the two fires on the other formats while also the fact that M19 did throw some bones promise a brighter future, although meanwhile it is going to funny if Tron is pushed out by the hate that KCI will proceed to ignore while going off.
Don't get me wrong. I like broken Magic. If and when Stoneforge gets unbanned, I wouldn't mind playing it with Jitte. The main problem is that everyone else will also. Why would you not? (okay, Tron and a couple other decks don't care)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
teferi was admittedly under-evaluated. however there wasnt a single person i saw that said it would be too good, or push control over the top; and it hasnt. you didnt need to extensively test the card to see that it wouldnt be too good, because there is a limit on what a 5-mana sorcery speed play can do. partially because control has limitations before teferi can even become a factor.
id consider it somewhat the same for stoneforge mystic. we can debate whether it would become an actual format staple that would lift decks up, homogenizes white decks too much, or see little to no play at all. however the properties of the card mostly precludes it from taking over the format. its a creature that requires you to untap with it, gets an artifact, and is primarily played in slower fair/grindier decks. the format has all the tools and then some to keep that in check; both in cards and strategies/decks.
so yeah i agree that we cant account for everything, but its not like card evaluation isnt something you can approach rationally and come to a conclusion that approximates the truth of things. testing, while being better, simply has too many variables that you cant control; making the results suspect for the amount of effort required. there is a reason (i assume) that wizards isnt spending thousands of man hours testing every card they design.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)"While there are no changes to other formats at this time, we do continue to monitor the health of Modern, Vintage, and Pauper. Across the board, those formats are looking quite healthy right now."
First, they clarify that they are evaluating Modern health even if the update doesn't focus on Modern. Second, and far more notably, they describe Modern as "quite healthy." What more do we need? I know we would probably want more regarding data, metagame shares, etc. but I'm happy getting a check-in at all. We're 1.5 years into a banless period of healthy Modern and it's great to see that Wizards still continues this to be healthy. We may disagree with that, but we have a measuring stick, especially at the GP level.
That's because despite a few people talking loudly about it, there's actually no reason for stirrings to see a ban. It's recently become a popular scapegoat in online discussions, but i challenge you to actually find a single reasonable argument for banning the card that fits with how we understand WotC's criteria for removing cards from the format. Remember, bans are damaging, and an action of last resort for issues that can't self-correct.
Basically, it's all hot air. I mean, if you want a crystal clear example of this, just check out Paolo Vitor Damo da Rosa's latest article on channel fireball where he talks about stirrings. It's an undignified moan about what he personally dislikes, with zero attempt to substantiate it. If that's indicative of general opinion then gawd help us all lol.
Also, just FYI there's no link between ponder/preordain and stirrings. I see this comparison get made a lot and it's spurious. Ponder and preordain are on the list due to modern having a critical mass of enablers for blue-based combo decks. They aren't there purely based on power level and it's self-defeating to compare stirrings to those cards based on (subjective) reasoning that doesn't even match up with why those cards are banned in the first place. The whole "why does stirrings get to be legal when preordain is banned" argument is a complete red-herring. Don't engage with it.
For what it's worth, I've been trying the deck "Eternal Devote." This deck is basically a Devoted Druid/Vizier of Remedies deck, aka Turbo Vizier, using Hall of the Bandit Lord and a bunch of "tutors." I will say that even in this deck, Ancient Stirrings is quite powerful. I would say it's more powerful than Adventurous Impulse, but not close to Traverse the Ulvenwald. Keep in mind that I'm talking specifically about this deck. However, seeing the use of the card even in this deck, digging 5 cards deep for Hall of the Bandit Lord, other land, Mishra's Bauble, or Walking Ballista, makes me see the raw power of Ancient Stirrings. Perhaps it is all right? I actually believe that it is. But I also believe that Preordain is fine. I really can't see it doing anything back breaking in Modern. Sure, more players may try Storm and Caleb Sherer and Paul Muller will win some events. But then, that would probably have happened anyway. They are indeed amazing, dedicated Storm players.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14652&writer=Raphael Levy&articledate=5-23-2018&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term&utm_content=magic&utm_campaign=content
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
Just read the article. Good read.
I actually kind of hope and pray more people flock to Tron. I would love to play Turns again, although I'm not quite sure why I quit in the first place. It's much better than people flocking to Humans, which shuts me out of certain decks that I like to play.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)that pretty much sums it up.
as for the mtgo event numbers: yeah that is what i guessed, just wanted some perspective on the results.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I cannot continue playing Turns more than a week or 2, the salt is bad for my health.
As to hating Tron, yes, people hate it irrationally, just like Bogles. He is right many of us will be happy for the 10 days following the Stirrings (eventual) ban.
Spirits
You left out the part where many of those happy people will just become miserable at whatever else is winning
And yes, the nickelback comment is hilarious.
Spirits
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)