I, and many others, would love to have Birthing Pod come back. Even without any combos, it's the ultimate toolbox deck.
I really am curious to know how well it would do in today's meta against humans, KCI, tron, and the rest of the field that did not exist in 2014.
Of course it would probably make more sense to unban Green Sun's Zenith first as that card has had even less time being legal than Pod. I like the idea of a green creature toolbox deck.
Yep, I know. Based on their day 1 or day 2 % they should do better, but it's weak to unfair things, and probably Tron.
It's not a ban target, but it is a good sized piece of the meta.
Militia bugler means the deck is going to reach dangerous top 8 levels though.
Let's wait and see some actual GP results. Many in this thread have called for bans of top decks for literally 1.5+ years and they have been resoundingly proven wrong at every update so far. Let's talk again after a few more GP and see where stand. Modern Challenges/MOCS/PPTQ events all look quite healthy.
healthy? Maybe...but to much humans. After your post i checked Mtg top 8 last tournament with 200 people and closed again....humans won and 2 in top 8. seems this picture is normal at the Moment
I, and many others, would love to have Birthing Pod come back. Even without any combos, it's the ultimate toolbox deck.
I really am curious to know how well it would do in today's meta against humans, KCI, tron, and the rest of the field that did not exist in 2014.
Of course it would probably make more sense to unban Green Sun's Zenith first as that card has had even less time being legal than Pod. I like the idea of a green creature toolbox deck.
I got a playset of Splinter Twin and Birthing Pod sitting around because looking at the historic decks and their power level, they would easily work in a world where wizards of the coast starts supporting modern through some form of supplementary set, where cards can enter the format without going through standard. Given the survey it seems that is a direction the company is considering. Also, the B&R announcements happen often enough that if they wanted to unban either card it would be rather easy to go back on the decision.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Even people who play humans have been saying that Bugler is good, but the decklist is so tight that you sacrifice some matchups for others. Yeah, Militia Bugler makes Mardu and Jeskai goodstuff decks easier to face, but if you cut reflector mage the grixis shadow matchup suffers. If you cut 3mana Thalia your tron matchup suffers. Plus it doesn't get mantis rider, which really matters because that is often the card that lets them turn the corner.
Unrelated note: I just watched a video on how KCI wins. It took seven minutes, and that's without discussing anything else it does to lead up to the combo like proper spell sequencing, tutor selection or dealing with hate cards. That is ridiculous.
Humans has a lot of directions it can move in, and more powerful cards than it has space to play. That's a good spot to be in, but it doesn't mean the deck is too good. It's a very metagame intensive deck.
Even people who play humans have been saying that Bugler is good, but the decklist is so tight that you sacrifice some matchups for others. Yeah, Militia Bugler makes Mardu and Jeskai goodstuff decks easier to face, but if you cut reflector mage the grixis shadow matchup suffers. If you cut 3mana Thalia your tron matchup suffers. Plus it doesn't get mantis rider, which really matters because that is often the card that lets them turn the corner.
Unrelated note: I just watched a video on how KCI wins. It took seven minutes, and that's without discussing anything else it does to lead up to the combo like proper spell sequencing, tutor selection or dealing with hate cards. That is ridiculous.
Humans has a lot of directions it can move in, and more powerful cards than it has space to play. That's a good spot to be in, but it doesn't mean the deck is too good. It's a very metagame intensive deck.
Which honestly is how I'd like to see it - powerful decks but with so few flex slots that there really isn't a version that is perfect for an open field. That's the ideal top tier, IMO.
Nail on the head with the last couple posts. Any additions to Humans require the removal of something else. The more you up its grind factor with Bugler, the more you're skimping somewhere else -- hate creatures like Meddling Mage or Freebooter, aggro like Mantis Rider, etc.
"There really isn't a version that is perfect for an open field" sums it up well. And shouldn't be very surprising when we're talking about a tempo (or aggro-control) deck.
If Modern Humans were to get a ban, what card would it be - Aether Vial?
I think it would have to be, that's the only semi-unfair card in the deck, other than Cavern. I think we're still pretty far away from needing to take action on Humans, though.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
People are worried about a creature tribal deck in modern that is good because of it's ability to answer the current and recent historic modern meta. It has no degenerate super speed like dredge, plays at the same pace as merfolk, and relies on UW tempo based effects to keep itself ahead on the board. Yes, it's a good deck, but honestly it seems really beatable.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think people are worried, because Humans is EXACTLY what Wizards wants to print. Creatures with value or spells attached, and people play Modern so that they can experience and play things that are different than that.
Humans will continue to get cards, near every set.
He is saying that if you ban something out of humans, or a similar style deck, there will be a replacement and the power level may not be greatly affected. Another example of this is jund with BBE and DRS. It took two bans to bring it in line and in reality what made jund acceptable power level was the rise of the power level of other decks and not just the result of the bannings.
There are strong cards to ban that could get hit like meddling mage aether vial or cavern of souls, but the deck will still function.
I think people are worried, because Humans is EXACTLY what Wizards wants to print. Creatures with value or spells attached, and people play Modern so that they can experience and play things that are different than that.
Humans will continue to get cards, near every set.
I think that's the problem wizards is now seeing since I doubt they really expected legacy to keep surviving with modern moving forward. The idea was to get away from the RL, but provide a non-rotating format for people who are long time fans of the game to enjoy. I'm really hoping they swap to a partial reprint product for modern and introduce new cards for the format that way instead of through simply standard. I'm worming my way into legacy now instead of modern because of the fact it has more effective non-creature interactions.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I would say that the most annoying card in Humans is Meddling Mage, but that card in no way deserves a ban. In fact, no card in that deck deserves a ban at all, not on power level, or consistency. The deck doesn't even deserve a ban at all. IMHO, the fact that it performs so well is that its natural predator, the removal heavy mid-range decks, is in a slump due to rampant big mana, combo and control decks forming the rest of the meta.
Getting rid of Ancient Stirrings would do wonders to balance the meta closer to what WotC wants it to be.
I would say that the most annoying card in Humans is Meddling Mage, but that card in no way deserves a ban. In fact, no card in that deck deserves a ban at all, not on power level, or consistency. The deck doesn't even deserve a ban at all. IMHO, the fact that it performs so well is that its natural predator, the removal heavy mid-range decks, is in a slump due to rampant big mana, combo and control decks forming the rest of the meta.
Getting rid of Ancient Stirrings would do wonders to balance the meta closer to what WotC wants it to be.
Getting rid of ancient stirrings will not steer the game towards a better future. The problem is the subtle power creep on creatures and the weakening of spells. What you are advocating is banning a decent spell that enables non creature strategies, simply because they printed a bunch of overpowered creatures and got obsessed with killing vertical strategies, which is why humans and three color minimum is a thing.
When your only way to compete is to cast a net wide enough to catch the advantages of three or more colors, the game is broken and needs fixing. Adding hate or removing good non-creature spells pushes modern more and more into an extension of standard. A format of creature rush 90% of the time.
This is happening mostly because of limited and draft. Non creature spells need targets and such to be useful, but a creature that also bounces is good in limited even at inflated costs because it gives a body and acts as a spell. If anything, designers should learn from this mistake when making other TCGs and support the draft and constructed formats with different product lines. There was no reason for modern to turn out this way.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Stirrings is only enabling two decks: Tron and KCI though. Tron is the rock in a rock/paper/scissors meta as it has a bad matchup against most other linear decks and in particular combo. Those decks then lose to the disruptive decks, which in turn lose to tron. I think KCI is more of a problem than Tron. Yes, I understand stirrings helps green eldrazi variants and lantern, but the former barely exists now because hollow one is the superior "put big guys down quickly" deck, and lantern is a worse KCI "critical mass of artifact synergy" deck.
I still say unban preordain instead of banning stirrings. I'd rather see weaker strategies boosted than others nerfed.
I would say that the most annoying card in Humans is Meddling Mage, but that card in no way deserves a ban. In fact, no card in that deck deserves a ban at all, not on power level, or consistency. The deck doesn't even deserve a ban at all. IMHO, the fact that it performs so well is that its natural predator, the removal heavy mid-range decks, is in a slump due to rampant big mana, combo and control decks forming the rest of the meta.
Getting rid of Ancient Stirrings would do wonders to balance the meta closer to what WotC wants it to be.
Medlling Mage is indeed one of the more powerful cards in Humans deck. Forced me to change board wipe configuration, instead of 3 Supreme Verdict... my UW emeria deck now has 1 Supreme Verdict, 1 Cleansing Nova, and 1 Day of Judgment in the main. Mage is good because it works in tandem with freebooter to peek at my hand first, so they have a better idea of what to name. However, I'm still in the opinion that nothing is worthy of ban in Humans deck. Their deck is fun to play against.
There is no Tron in my local meta, so no opinion on Ancient Stirrings.
________________________________________
EDIT:
The deck I'm beginning to be worried about is Bridgevine. Right now it's still inconsistent and can lose to variance... but when the deck works it attacks with multiple zombies similar to legacy Dredge. Vengevine is the modern Ichorid.
Pros like consistency. Either Bridgevine will get refined in the next six months to break the Pro Tour and get banned, or it will prove too inconsistent. That's not even taking into account the chances we have to adjust.
Again, there is no card or deck that is worrisome based on results. We already know the results that Wizards cares about in Modern because those are the results they consistently cite: GP and PT T8s plus MTGO. MTGO is a bit of a black box but the MOCS/Challenge/PPTQ events collectively paint a very diverse picture. The GP and PT T8s are not a black box. No single deck except Gx Tron is even over 10% of the total 2018 T8 metagame, and Humans is only at 8%-9% if we count the Team event which we probably shouldn't count. It's like this thread lost its collective mind after the Day 1 metagame of the PT got posted and many posters haven't looked back since then. Team events may not even matter for B&R purposes and they definitely shouldn't matter when assessing metagame health. Wait for GP. Once we get 2-3 new GP in the books, we'll have a good picture of what is actually a strong deck and what is merely the new and temporary hotness. We'll also see if Stirrings decks continue to trend up or if the metagame adjusts and they fall back. Right now, they are on track to surpass Twin's T8 share by the end of the year at their current rate of roughly 2 per GP/PT T8. But maybe that will fall off. We'll see.
Banlist prediction for next Monday is a solid "No changes" with a less solid "Unban SFM" as a backup prediction. I could also see a very focused KCI ban like Trawler or the deck's namesake if Wizards has logistical data that shows KCI is making rounds go too long. Nothing else is bannable from a power perspective, and the logistical issue is more of a black box than many in this thread like to make it out.
I could also see a very focused KCI ban like Trawler or the deck's namesake if Wizards has logistical data that shows KCI is making rounds go too long.
My recent experience at a mid-zied event was that UW control is the deck that takes too long to finish. Most matches that went to time seemed to involve a control deck. We should ban UW control. Or at least the mirror matches.
I could also see a very focused KCI ban like Trawler or the deck's namesake if Wizards has logistical data that shows KCI is making rounds go too long.
My recent experience at a mid-zied event was that UW control is the deck that takes too long to finish. Most matches that went to time seemed to involve a control deck. We should ban UW control. Or at least the mirror matches.
I don't think these kinds of facetious comments are super productive. Maybe you missed the whole conversation about KCI time issues, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt. The alleged problem with KCI is not going to time. It's that individual turns can take too long as with Sunrise Eggs. Only Wizards would have that data. UW Control turns are no longer than most decks even if their rounds go to time.
Yeah the KCI issue isn't that the games are long. It's that the combo itself takes long to execute (especially if you aren't very well versed with the deck) and it is the only criteria that isn't based on competitiveness or usage numbers at all, instead the potential of angering players and viewers so much through sheer boredom that people stop playing/watching. UW control can take long to win because...it takes a while to reduce the other player's life to zero. Most players want at least ten lands in play before they try to use colonnade beats. I kinda wish they'd start adding in a copy of secure the wastes on top of entreat the angels.
Funny thing is, Teferi has become the staple control PW to the point where it almost would have been better if its ultimate was something more along the lines of JTMS than something which does really end the game in terms of chance to win, but doesn't actually meet any of the rules to winning the game.
I don't think we're getting an unban until like January/February. To me, Bridgevine is like Dredge after SOI block. It's powerful, but it's fine. The deck is probably just one Cathartic Reunion away from being busted, though.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Funny thing is, Teferi has become the staple control PW to the point where it almost would have been better if its ultimate was something more along the lines of JTMS than something which does really end the game in terms of chance to win, but doesn't actually meet any of the rules to winning the game.
Teferi is powerful, and I'm glad blue got something like that (and white too, for that matter). But, that is one very poorly designed card. The ultimate is too slow to win, and the hidden win condition of tucking itself should never have existed.
I don't accept that it's poorly designed at all. I've won several games with just Teferi/Jace. UW should already be keeping the board clear. Emblem + Jace = Scoop it up.
That it's a single card wincon is about what U Control has needed to not be tied to a Red Enchantment.
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UW Spirits
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I really am curious to know how well it would do in today's meta against humans, KCI, tron, and the rest of the field that did not exist in 2014.
Of course it would probably make more sense to unban Green Sun's Zenith first as that card has had even less time being legal than Pod. I like the idea of a green creature toolbox deck.
I got a playset of Splinter Twin and Birthing Pod sitting around because looking at the historic decks and their power level, they would easily work in a world where wizards of the coast starts supporting modern through some form of supplementary set, where cards can enter the format without going through standard. Given the survey it seems that is a direction the company is considering. Also, the B&R announcements happen often enough that if they wanted to unban either card it would be rather easy to go back on the decision.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Humans has a lot of directions it can move in, and more powerful cards than it has space to play. That's a good spot to be in, but it doesn't mean the deck is too good. It's a very metagame intensive deck.
Which honestly is how I'd like to see it - powerful decks but with so few flex slots that there really isn't a version that is perfect for an open field. That's the ideal top tier, IMO.
"There really isn't a version that is perfect for an open field" sums it up well. And shouldn't be very surprising when we're talking about a tempo (or aggro-control) deck.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Humans will continue to get cards, near every set.
Spirits
There are strong cards to ban that could get hit like meddling mage aether vial or cavern of souls, but the deck will still function.
I think that's the problem wizards is now seeing since I doubt they really expected legacy to keep surviving with modern moving forward. The idea was to get away from the RL, but provide a non-rotating format for people who are long time fans of the game to enjoy. I'm really hoping they swap to a partial reprint product for modern and introduce new cards for the format that way instead of through simply standard. I'm worming my way into legacy now instead of modern because of the fact it has more effective non-creature interactions.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Getting rid of Ancient Stirrings would do wonders to balance the meta closer to what WotC wants it to be.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Getting rid of ancient stirrings will not steer the game towards a better future. The problem is the subtle power creep on creatures and the weakening of spells. What you are advocating is banning a decent spell that enables non creature strategies, simply because they printed a bunch of overpowered creatures and got obsessed with killing vertical strategies, which is why humans and three color minimum is a thing.
When your only way to compete is to cast a net wide enough to catch the advantages of three or more colors, the game is broken and needs fixing. Adding hate or removing good non-creature spells pushes modern more and more into an extension of standard. A format of creature rush 90% of the time.
This is happening mostly because of limited and draft. Non creature spells need targets and such to be useful, but a creature that also bounces is good in limited even at inflated costs because it gives a body and acts as a spell. If anything, designers should learn from this mistake when making other TCGs and support the draft and constructed formats with different product lines. There was no reason for modern to turn out this way.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I still say unban preordain instead of banning stirrings. I'd rather see weaker strategies boosted than others nerfed.
Medlling Mage is indeed one of the more powerful cards in Humans deck. Forced me to change board wipe configuration, instead of 3 Supreme Verdict... my UW emeria deck now has 1 Supreme Verdict, 1 Cleansing Nova, and 1 Day of Judgment in the main. Mage is good because it works in tandem with freebooter to peek at my hand first, so they have a better idea of what to name. However, I'm still in the opinion that nothing is worthy of ban in Humans deck. Their deck is fun to play against.
There is no Tron in my local meta, so no opinion on Ancient Stirrings.
________________________________________
EDIT:
The deck I'm beginning to be worried about is Bridgevine. Right now it's still inconsistent and can lose to variance... but when the deck works it attacks with multiple zombies similar to legacy Dredge. Vengevine is the modern Ichorid.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Banlist prediction for next Monday is a solid "No changes" with a less solid "Unban SFM" as a backup prediction. I could also see a very focused KCI ban like Trawler or the deck's namesake if Wizards has logistical data that shows KCI is making rounds go too long. Nothing else is bannable from a power perspective, and the logistical issue is more of a black box than many in this thread like to make it out.
My recent experience at a mid-zied event was that UW control is the deck that takes too long to finish. Most matches that went to time seemed to involve a control deck. We should ban UW control. Or at least the mirror matches.
I don't think these kinds of facetious comments are super productive. Maybe you missed the whole conversation about KCI time issues, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt. The alleged problem with KCI is not going to time. It's that individual turns can take too long as with Sunrise Eggs. Only Wizards would have that data. UW Control turns are no longer than most decks even if their rounds go to time.
Funny thing is, Teferi has become the staple control PW to the point where it almost would have been better if its ultimate was something more along the lines of JTMS than something which does really end the game in terms of chance to win, but doesn't actually meet any of the rules to winning the game.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Teferi is powerful, and I'm glad blue got something like that (and white too, for that matter). But, that is one very poorly designed card. The ultimate is too slow to win, and the hidden win condition of tucking itself should never have existed.
That it's a single card wincon is about what U Control has needed to not be tied to a Red Enchantment.
Spirits