Some people make bad choices, I know people who put a deck together, then buylist the whole thing a month later and build into something else. They take a 50% loss every time (maybe more than that, as they always sell out of hype and buy into hype). People who pick a deck, and then steadily expand outward from that point can hit the critical mass in a year or two of playing the format gradually gaining access to more decks and archetypes.
Prices are as bad as they've ever been in the format, but to be honest... until I read about the formats pricing in various articles the last couple weeks I had no idea because I already own the staples and can switch between most decks.
Interestingly, I've been doing the same thing in Legacy just sticking to the slow and steady collection strategy. Legacy didn't cost me that much more to get into than Modern did, and I started building into Legacy 3 years ago, and am now at the same point that I'm at in Modern.
I think the trick is to not sell your cards. When you're done with a card or a deck, hang onto it and build your collection. The constant buying in and out of things is how you lose all your money.
those who can and do reach that critical mass are so far in the minority though, because it is difficult to achieve. you are talking an investment of years and years of smart planning/purchases, a short term bulk investment, or both. it may seem easy from your perspective, but so can planning for retirement.
aside from denial over how good people believe decks are and the financial/time buffer to switch decks, there is also preferred play styles. i know plenty of people who play jank merely because they enjoy it, and expertise gives them no small modicum of success.
there is also mtgo, where many of the barriers Colt47 brings up dont exist, or at least not to the same extent. an hour with some research looking through various bots can have you switching decks entirely with minimal loss, and in rare cases even gain. of course there are other factors that play into the mtgo meta, such as the time required to finish a league; however changes in the modern landscape are probably going to show up on mtgo first even if they can be exaggerated.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I don't agree. Modern (and Legacy for that matter) have a critical mass on collection size, once you hit that critical mass it becomes easy and cheap to switch decks.
In modern, that critical mass isn't hard to achieve. At about the $3000 collection mark, assuming you bought smart, you can switch into almost any deck for under $150.
It depends if someone is a collector. I know I collect cards and don't really trade out of them, so I build up this huge bunker of cards in my basement and can swap to a lot of decks. The main limiting factor is the lands, since those have a ton of cross over between decks in modern. They could print fetches and shocks to oblivion and people would still be buying them up. If someone had a dozen fetches for like 50 bucks I don't think anyone here would be like "No thanks, I totally need more snapcasters." Not saying that we couldn't use more snappy, but a dozen fetches vs 1/2 a snapcaster mage, there isn't even a contest.
I tell most of the new players at my LGS to pick a deck archetype, figure out the ideal deck that represents it, and build a budget version and fill it out from there. After they build the deck, look at reprints and pick up anything that shares a color and is in the top 50 cards for that color and pick them up. After. 3-4 years you'll have a fine collection to maneuver from deck to deck all the while positioning yourself to switch gears if you need to.
I started with elves personally and now I can build 90% plus of any modern deck aside from tron and affinity (and cross over decks that draw from similar core cards) after 3 years. I built out from mono green to gb, to gbw while buying red/white singles that were cheap. I really wasn't out of pocket for much (probably about what I'm out to just play the game anyway in FNM and travel/ticket expenses to drive to local tournaments).
As for the meta, I don't mind the game moving away from the stack. We're still getting lots of great cards and dominaria was freaking fantastic compared to other sets for non rotating playables. I wouldn't be happy facing down crap like RB reanimator in modern even if we had force to "police" the format. I think wizards CAN find a way to make interesting interactions through tap abilities - which are grossly underused imo. Look at cohort from BFZ/oath - absolutely fine ability that was very poorly executed. Outlast from khans was also garbage because it was relegated to sorcery speed. I don't get why we have phenomenol ETB cards like snap/e wit/ etc. and the majority of tap abilities are bad.
I've been looking around a bit last night. Does anyone else have any input on the idea that green is under-represented in modern right now in the top deck line up? I tend to be bigger on FNM level play than the top level these days and I know people still play a lot of green decks at that level. I haven't heard of a lot of top lists being primarily green though, and seeing the decay on Tarmogoyf prices on the second hand market appears to indicate that the pro scene for green is a tad stagnant.
Well, green has the best creatures and mana acceleration... but how many of the top decks are actually looking at casting creatures? Humans is the only such deck, the only creature deck disruptive enough to push through the Combo/Tron/Control gauntlet. Bridgevine and Hollow One are cheating creatures into play, Jund is pretty bad against the decks that are at the top of Modern and Titanshift is far too slow against the other combo decks.
Frankly, who is scared of Tarmogoyf nowadays, when you can have over 10 power on the board on turn 1 or 2, or Karn or a combo on turn 3? Green decks are too fair for Modern.
I would like to draw people's attention to the ban-unban poll for a min. Of coarse SFM is winning by a mile, but after that Preordain and splinter twin are tied at 68 votes each right now. I think that is worthy of note.
those who can and do reach that critical mass are so far in the minority though, because it is difficult to achieve. you are talking an investment of years and years of smart planning/purchases, a short term bulk investment, or both. it may seem easy from your perspective, but so can planning for retirement.
Bulk is one of the biggest wastes of money. While nothing is 100% guaranteed, when trying to build collection value and hit that critical mass, it's important to never buy cards that don't have a resale value.
of course there are other factors that play into the mtgo meta, such as the time required to finish a league;
This happens to me a lot, I struggle to find time to play. So I come up with great meta decks but then never actually finish out the league to see my results. FNM is generally doable for me, but much more than that tends to push things.
I've been looking around a bit last night. Does anyone else have any input on the idea that green is under-represented in modern right now in the top deck line up? I tend to be bigger on FNM level play than the top level these days and I know people still play a lot of green decks at that level. I haven't heard of a lot of top lists being primarily green though, and seeing the decay on Tarmogoyf prices on the second hand market appears to indicate that the pro scene for green is a tad stagnant.
Well, green has the best creatures and mana acceleration... but how many of the top decks are actually looking at casting creatures? Humans is the only such deck, the only creature deck disruptive enough to push through the Combo/Tron/Control gauntlet. Bridgevine and Hollow One are cheating creatures into play, Jund is pretty bad against the decks that are at the top of Modern and Titanshift is far too slow against the other combo decks.
Frankly, who is scared of Tarmogoyf nowadays, when you can have over 10 power on the board on turn 1 or 2, or Karn or a combo on turn 3? Green decks are too fair for Modern.
Given the assessments I've seen elsewhere, I'm now really starting to think they may try to unban GSZ in the near future. At this point searching out a green creature in particular is only of interest to a few decks: Ponza, Nikthos, and possibly Stompy to name a few. Right now Jeskai, Grixis, and UW are the major representation in modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't agree. Modern (and Legacy for that matter) have a critical mass on collection size, once you hit that critical mass it becomes easy and cheap to switch decks.
In modern, that critical mass isn't hard to achieve. At about the $3000 collection mark, assuming you bought smart, you can switch into almost any deck for under $150.
It depends if someone is a collector. I know I collect cards and don't really trade out of them, so I build up this huge bunker of cards in my basement and can swap to a lot of decks. The main limiting factor is the lands, since those have a ton of cross over between decks in modern. They could print fetches and shocks to oblivion and people would still be buying them up. If someone had a dozen fetches for like 50 bucks I don't think anyone here would be like "No thanks, I totally need more snapcasters." Not saying that we couldn't use more snappy, but a dozen fetches vs 1/2 a snapcaster mage, there isn't even a contest.
You dont have to be a collector, you simply have to be someone dedicated to the format. I dont know how many years its been, but I was at the point where I was essentially a Goyf set away from playing anything I wanted in the Tier 1 to 1.5 and any number of Jank. I still have the mana bases, and since everything else will eventually be reprinted...I've sold out of the money staples that are not UWR.
If someone is invested in playing Modern, they will put together the cards.
I've been looking around a bit last night. Does anyone else have any input on the idea that green is under-represented in modern right now in the top deck line up? I tend to be bigger on FNM level play than the top level these days and I know people still play a lot of green decks at that level. I haven't heard of a lot of top lists being primarily green though, and seeing the decay on Tarmogoyf prices on the second hand market appears to indicate that the pro scene for green is a tad stagnant.
Well, green has the best creatures and mana acceleration... but how many of the top decks are actually looking at casting creatures? Humans is the only such deck, the only creature deck disruptive enough to push through the Combo/Tron/Control gauntlet. Bridgevine and Hollow One are cheating creatures into play, Jund is pretty bad against the decks that are at the top of Modern and Titanshift is far too slow against the other combo decks.
Frankly, who is scared of Tarmogoyf nowadays, when you can have over 10 power on the board on turn 1 or 2, or Karn or a combo on turn 3? Green decks are too fair for Modern.
Given the assessments I've seen elsewhere, I'm now really starting to think they may try to unban GSZ in the near future. At this point searching out a green creature in particular is only of interest to a few decks: Ponza, Nikthos, and possibly Stompy to name a few. Right now Jeskai, Grixis, and UW are the major representation in modern.
i actually think gsz is a great card to unban that has gotten a bad rap. most modern players have been noting a decline in green creature decks (zoo, company decks, some would consider abzan)this is due to multiple reasons. fatal push was a big blow green creature decks particularly zoo. meta shifting to more combo decks they cant race or interact with and control decks playing more "wraths" like terminus you cant play around. gsz has many critics but most of the complaints against the card aren't valid or can be applied to cards currently legal. unbanning gsz means fair green creature decks can possibly come back
Prices are as bad as they've ever been in the format, but to be honest... until I read about the formats pricing in various articles the last couple weeks I had no idea because I already own the staples and can switch between most decks.
Interestingly, I've been doing the same thing in Legacy just sticking to the slow and steady collection strategy. Legacy didn't cost me that much more to get into than Modern did, and I started building into Legacy 3 years ago, and am now at the same point that I'm at in Modern.
I think the trick is to not sell your cards. When you're done with a card or a deck, hang onto it and build your collection. The constant buying in and out of things is how you lose all your money.
aside from denial over how good people believe decks are and the financial/time buffer to switch decks, there is also preferred play styles. i know plenty of people who play jank merely because they enjoy it, and expertise gives them no small modicum of success.
there is also mtgo, where many of the barriers Colt47 brings up dont exist, or at least not to the same extent. an hour with some research looking through various bots can have you switching decks entirely with minimal loss, and in rare cases even gain. of course there are other factors that play into the mtgo meta, such as the time required to finish a league; however changes in the modern landscape are probably going to show up on mtgo first even if they can be exaggerated.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I tell most of the new players at my LGS to pick a deck archetype, figure out the ideal deck that represents it, and build a budget version and fill it out from there. After they build the deck, look at reprints and pick up anything that shares a color and is in the top 50 cards for that color and pick them up. After. 3-4 years you'll have a fine collection to maneuver from deck to deck all the while positioning yourself to switch gears if you need to.
I started with elves personally and now I can build 90% plus of any modern deck aside from tron and affinity (and cross over decks that draw from similar core cards) after 3 years. I built out from mono green to gb, to gbw while buying red/white singles that were cheap. I really wasn't out of pocket for much (probably about what I'm out to just play the game anyway in FNM and travel/ticket expenses to drive to local tournaments).
As for the meta, I don't mind the game moving away from the stack. We're still getting lots of great cards and dominaria was freaking fantastic compared to other sets for non rotating playables. I wouldn't be happy facing down crap like RB reanimator in modern even if we had force to "police" the format. I think wizards CAN find a way to make interesting interactions through tap abilities - which are grossly underused imo. Look at cohort from BFZ/oath - absolutely fine ability that was very poorly executed. Outlast from khans was also garbage because it was relegated to sorcery speed. I don't get why we have phenomenol ETB cards like snap/e wit/ etc. and the majority of tap abilities are bad.
Well, green has the best creatures and mana acceleration... but how many of the top decks are actually looking at casting creatures? Humans is the only such deck, the only creature deck disruptive enough to push through the Combo/Tron/Control gauntlet. Bridgevine and Hollow One are cheating creatures into play, Jund is pretty bad against the decks that are at the top of Modern and Titanshift is far too slow against the other combo decks.
Frankly, who is scared of Tarmogoyf nowadays, when you can have over 10 power on the board on turn 1 or 2, or Karn or a combo on turn 3? Green decks are too fair for Modern.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Bulk is one of the biggest wastes of money. While nothing is 100% guaranteed, when trying to build collection value and hit that critical mass, it's important to never buy cards that don't have a resale value.
This happens to me a lot, I struggle to find time to play. So I come up with great meta decks but then never actually finish out the league to see my results. FNM is generally doable for me, but much more than that tends to push things.
Given the assessments I've seen elsewhere, I'm now really starting to think they may try to unban GSZ in the near future. At this point searching out a green creature in particular is only of interest to a few decks: Ponza, Nikthos, and possibly Stompy to name a few. Right now Jeskai, Grixis, and UW are the major representation in modern.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You dont have to be a collector, you simply have to be someone dedicated to the format. I dont know how many years its been, but I was at the point where I was essentially a Goyf set away from playing anything I wanted in the Tier 1 to 1.5 and any number of Jank. I still have the mana bases, and since everything else will eventually be reprinted...I've sold out of the money staples that are not UWR.
If someone is invested in playing Modern, they will put together the cards.
Spirits
i actually think gsz is a great card to unban that has gotten a bad rap. most modern players have been noting a decline in green creature decks (zoo, company decks, some would consider abzan)this is due to multiple reasons. fatal push was a big blow green creature decks particularly zoo. meta shifting to more combo decks they cant race or interact with and control decks playing more "wraths" like terminus you cant play around. gsz has many critics but most of the complaints against the card aren't valid or can be applied to cards currently legal. unbanning gsz means fair green creature decks can possibly come back
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StaffMTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge