MTG Salvation

10 a year would be tedious. 'No changes' would grate on my brain.

if anything, more per year should diffuse hype/expectations, while offering more mobility in their decisions. just consider the other end of the spectrum. if there were only a couple per year people would expect them to be major occasions, and thus be even more disappointed if their personal expectations arent met.

I'll be the first to admit that I openly have an issue with controlling my expectation for Wizards to correct things on the banlist. When it doesnt happen. I spiral a bit for a week.

So while what you are saying is logical, how I look at the current ban list, and Wizards handling of it, is not.

fair enough. i guess it depends on the person then. for some, like yourself, the constant reminder is the issue.

a silver lining though is that with more frequent announcements maybe wotc will be more liberal with their decisions, because the shorter span to the next one means they can more readily act if they dont like what they are seeing. that and less time for a card to ingrain itself into the format means less backlash if they have to revert anything. wishful thinking i know, but.../shrug

I'm glad HS affinity is actually making results. Anyone testing the deck would see it outperforms standard affinity (and I'll tell you there are a lot of salty affinity players that don't want to pick up the deck). I'm worried people are going to think the matt nass version is "best", when it's metagamed to beat a format filled with control decks (GP's)(maindeck leap and animation module). You saw a real weakness when it folded 2-0 to tron. Hard removal is very good (path, terminus, karn). Just destroying isn't good enough. The deck is best against midrange and control, worst against combo and burn. Spirits also gave me a beatdown at a couple pptq's. Expect a falloff of the current lists depending on how hard the meta shifts.

Hardened Scales is not good against control, UW Miracles crushes that deck. All of our removal dodges their death triggers, and post board we get Stony, RiP, and the angels.

Quote from Wraithpk »

Hardened Scales is not good against control, UW Miracles crushes that deck. All of our removal dodges their death triggers, and post board we get Stony, RiP, and the angels.

This is the issue, some people feel very informed, but the majority of Grinders know that the quote above is the truth. The discovery of Terminus and it's applications without Sensei's Divining Top nor Brainstorm has made control a contender in true fashion.

With all that being said, I fully expect No Changes considering Modern. Vintage with Sai, Master Thopterist on the other hand....

Grixis hardly sees any play, it's a tiny fraction of the overall control meta share. I could see Hardened Scales being good against the UR control decks, so that's probably true. TiTi is pretty good against what they're doing, and they've got Angers post board, but not much else. Still, UW and Jeskai are the largest portion of the blue control decks. It's a very easy matchup for UW, and I'd imagine it's a little harder for Jeskai, but probably not by a whole lot.

I feel like any UBx deck should be running at least 2 Kalitas in the 75. That card is so good in MU's like HS Affinity plus it helps some of your meh MU's like Burn, Dredge/H1/etc. Overall, if I'm HS control isn't the MU I'm looking to play against, it's other creature/GY decks. You just go way over the top. Maybe combo decks like Storm are also OK MU's if you're playing a bunch of hate pieces in the board.

Quote from Wraithpk »

Grixis hardly sees any play, it's a tiny fraction of the overall control meta share. I could see Hardened Scales being good against the UR control decks, so that's probably true. TiTi is pretty good against what they're doing, and they've got Angers post board, but not much else. Still, UW and Jeskai are the largest portion of the blue control decks. It's a very easy matchup for UW, and I'd imagine it's a little harder for Jeskai, but probably not by a whole lot.

I just want to share my experience here. Taking a break fro KCI, I have been testing Hardened Scales now because I'm really interesting in knowing the bad matchups and the good matchups. Against Jeskai, it is way better and so far against UW, it is definitely NOT favored. I'm not sure what it is. I know I need more testing because UW has always drawn the right things at the right time whenever on the ropes, but so far, I have it at 60/40 Scales vs. Jeskai and 60/40 (at least) UW vs. Scales.

That is a biiiig difference. Bolt and Helix do very little.

*There are still a lot of matchups for Scales that I haven't tested yet, but KCI, Company, Jeskai, UW Control, and (just starting) Humans are the ones that I have tested.

Quote from GotSK »

Quote from tronix »

Even Tron players can understand Hearthstone in 10 minutes.

Responding to another post: Overwatch was also not designed for epsorts. Designing your game to be an esport is a terrible, terrible idea and will just lose you money. Being a competitive game doesnt equate to esports

Quote from GotSK »

...

yeah that is a pretty good summary of it. hearthstone was meant to appeal to the casual gamer. the fact that it exploded onto the esports scene was more a byproduct of the game being so absurdly popular, and its accessibility lent itself well to gamers of any stripe to pick it up; and eventually stream it. at the end of the day though the gameplay, and the excitement it elicits, pales in comparison to games involving aspects such as action, teamwork, feats of mental/physical dexterity, and so on. no amount of eye candy makes up for it being a turn based card game.

im sure wizards has plans for, and hopes for, the game to be similarly successful; though on a smaller scale (lets be real hasbro/wizards is an ant compared to activision/blizzard in the gaming sector). however as pistallion points out, esports is more aligned with a marketing campaign than anything else. also its noteworthy to recognize the difference between esports and streaming.

i dont think wizards is going to push to merge arena and mtgo, at least not any time in the near future. sure there is some overlap, but both being digital doesnt preclude the fact that the products are very different; with different goals, target demographics, and strengths/weaknesses. mtgo is a direct port of the paper magic experience, while arena isnt. at this point mtgo requires minimal upkeep, while transforming arena into something that could meet the needs of those playing mtgo would take a huge amount of resources. sure there will be some cannibalization between the two platforms, but as long as there is a net increase in the population of those playing 'digital magic' in any form i dont think wizards will care.

granted this is all conjecture/speculation. who knows maybe wizards feels backed into a corner with their string of relative failures and will take drastic measures.

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

I just want to share my experience here. Taking a break fro KCI, I have been testing Hardened Scales now because I'm really interesting in knowing the bad matchups and the good matchups. Against Jeskai, it is way better and so far against UW, it is definitely NOT favored. I'm not sure what it is. I know I need more testing because UW has always drawn the right things at the right time whenever on the ropes, but so far, I have it at 60/40 Scales vs. Jeskai and 60/40 (at least) UW vs. Scales.

That is a biiiig difference. Bolt and Helix do very little.

*There are still a lot of matchups for Scales that I haven't tested yet, but KCI, Company, Jeskai, UW Control, and (just starting) Humans are the ones that I have tested.

From the control side, I would say that the obvious difference between UW and Jeskai in that matchup is the sweeper package. Terminus cleans up their board, while the 4 mana wraths sometimes will not. Beyond that, our sideboard is also better. We play RiP, which shuts down all the death triggers, while Jeskai doesn't. Also, the angels just slam the door on games. If we Terminus you followed up by a Baneslayer, there's almost no way Hardened Scales is coming back from that.

Grixis and Sultai not great in Modern. Dominate Options in Legacy funny how that works.

Quote from AUTUMNTWILIGHT »

Grixis and Sultai not great in Modern. Dominate Options in Legacy funny how that works.

Cantrips and free counters are really all that's different.

Free spells in general always make an enormous difference in any format. Just ask any Pauper player, or anyone who played Git Probe in Modern.

Yes its hard to beat free.

Yeah, but the point is to look at just how much impact it makes. I like to think the Cantrips are more important, but then I remember they can cantrip and still hold up counter magic while tapped out, and its just a huge gulf in terms of potential power.

I think I mentioned in the Blue Moon thread, maybe here, but now that I'm used to running 6-8 Cantrips + Remands again, I cannot imagine anything else. Ever other deck feels like its dragging its feet through the mud and its the worst feeling.

UB Shadow and Grixis Control in Legacy are both essentially Modern decks, with better cantrips and Force of Will.

Quote from Wraithpk »

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

I just want to share my experience here. Taking a break fro KCI, I have been testing Hardened Scales now because I'm really interesting in knowing the bad matchups and the good matchups. Against Jeskai, it is way better and so far against UW, it is definitely NOT favored. I'm not sure what it is. I know I need more testing because UW has always drawn the right things at the right time whenever on the ropes, but so far, I have it at 60/40 Scales vs. Jeskai and 60/40 (at least) UW vs. Scales.

That is a biiiig difference. Bolt and Helix do very little.

*There are still a lot of matchups for Scales that I haven't tested yet, but KCI, Company, Jeskai, UW Control, and (just starting) Humans are the ones that I have tested.

From the control side, I would say that the obvious difference between UW and Jeskai in that matchup is the sweeper package. Terminus cleans up their board, while the 4 mana wraths sometimes will not. Beyond that, our sideboard is also better. We play RiP, which shuts down all the death triggers, while Jeskai doesn't. Also, the angels just slam the door on games. If we Terminus you followed up by a Baneslayer, there's almost no way Hardened Scales is coming back from that.

I've played probably 500+ matches of Hardened Scales on MTGO and you've been on the money with each of your posts. UW Control is a terrible match-up because of Terminus, SB hate, and sometimes angels. The UW Control resurgence hurt its place in the meta. Out of the other decks mentioned, Burn is fairly positive, Jeskai and Tron even. Hardened Scales is indeed looking to prey other creature decks. Bant Spirits is probably the exception, although that match-up is considerably easier against mediocre pilots.

Quote from Darkest_before_dawn »

I've played probably 500+ matches of Hardened Scales on MTGO and you've been on the money with each of your posts. UW Control is a terrible match-up because of Terminus, SB hate, and sometimes angels. The UW Control resurgence hurt its place in the meta. Out of the other decks mentioned, Burn is fairly positive, Jeskai and Tron even. Hardened Scales is indeed looking to prey other creature decks. Bant Spirits is probably the exception, although that match-up is considerably easier against mediocre pilots.

Speaking of Spirits, I was watching Nassif's CFB video playing Bant Spirits, and he didn't bring in RiP against Hardened Scales. That felt wrong to me, but maybe they just don't want to dilute their creature count and make CoCo worse?

thatd be my guess. rip is like backdoor sidedoor hate against growbots. i think boarding in a single copy is probably correct. however bant spirits isnt exactly throwing a bunch of terminates around, and the creature suite doesnt always lend itself to kill opposing creatures through blocks. just bringing in the stonys and flying over as best you can seems like an alright strat.

Quote from Wraithpk »

Quote from Darkest_before_dawn »

I've played probably 500+ matches of Hardened Scales on MTGO and you've been on the money with each of your posts. UW Control is a terrible match-up because of Terminus, SB hate, and sometimes angels. The UW Control resurgence hurt its place in the meta. Out of the other decks mentioned, Burn is fairly positive, Jeskai and Tron even. Hardened Scales is indeed looking to prey other creature decks. Bant Spirits is probably the exception, although that match-up is considerably easier against mediocre pilots.

Speaking of Spirits, I was watching Nassif's CFB video playing Bant Spirits, and he didn't bring in RiP against Hardened Scales. That felt wrong to me, but maybe they just don't want to dilute their creature count and make CoCo worse?

Spirits can just grow big and swing in for lethal. There's no real need to run RIP which can shut off a few cards, but at the cost of taking a turn off. Particularly on the draw the card is super mediocre in the matchup. It's different for a deck like UWx control which is aiming to go long and as a result can reap the value of shutting off the combo outs.

So Mox Opal. There are a few folks who think this is something that should go, but does that opinion stand up to logic?

1. It does have deck building restrictions. This isnt even Ancient Stirrings level of 'deck restrictions'.
2. It has hate that shuts it down.
3. Its 'just' mana, and its legendary.

Is this realistically a target for a ban?

I ask of course for selfish reasons. I maybe want a play set, but at $400+, and with no real replacement *cough* I would be really sad to buy in, and see it disappear.

well at least you are upfront about your bias.

'just' mana. black lotus is just mana!

imo mox opal will forever be on the watch list, merely because its a piece of fast mana and its power level is an outlier in the format for the decks that can use it. is it explicitly crossing any lines and worthy of a ban? probably not, at least right now.

tbh though its one of those cards that i wouldnt bat an eyelash for if it got the axe. if it was facilitating some grindhouse artifact deck thats one thing, but all we see it do for the most part is facilitate early kills. being the centerpiece for those infrequent turn 2/3 nut draws that no deck has a chance against.

none of the decks that are playing it though are dominating meta percentages or in win rate (afaik). for me that stonewalls most arguments to get rid of it.

Opal is a great card, no two ways about it, but it doesn't really do anything ban-worthy by itself. Both Affinity and KCI are strong decks, but neither of them is ultra enabled by Opal. Affinity is using Opal to play more 1 and 2 mana artifacts, which are the most hateable permanent types in the game, and KCI has other redundant ways to try to speed up its combo. Opal doesn't play a broken role in either deck.

By comparison, I would argue Opal is more broken in Cheerios, but as the deck isn't particularly well positioned or strong, that isn't much of a strike against the card. The same argument goes for SSG. If a deck crops up that is Tier 1 and abuses SSG, I'm confident it would be banned. I'm not as confident about Opal, though, just because of the collateral damage in other artifact strategies that have come to use Opal, either as a crutch or a tool that allow them to operate with other Tier 1 strategies.