"Modern is in a pretty good spot" and "Cards could and should come off the banned list" are not mutually exclusive, nor dependent on each other. One being true should have no impact on the other. People thought the format was going to come to an end with Jace, The Mind Sculptor unbanned, and it pretty much did nothing until paired with exactly Teferi, Field of Ruin, Opt, and Terminus, and is STILL not anywhere close to dominant.
Perhaps many of the fears and risks are being assessed by people who are incredibly terrible at evaluating cards and decks...
I'm convinced its people who dont grind out match after match after match. They probably dont even play weekly, or (as with most content producers and pro's) they have opinions that need to generate clicks for their sponsors.
It is absolutely unbelievable to me that there are people who actually thought Jace was going to end Modern. Not 'maybe kind of' but 'this is the worst thing ever and I'm going to jam 4 Disrupting Shoal and 4 JtMS and I'll tap out on Turn 4 and lol and nobody will win and you will all hate me as I FATESEAL YOU'.
In Modern? In 2018? Wake up people!
Meanwhile all these decks that dont interact are getting dunked on right now by a combo that was too weak before (Knight of the Reliquary + Retreat to Coralhelm) because people dont even have a Bolt for the Bird on Turn 1. I'm embarrassed for them, because its a self fulfilling prophecy. Twin would DECIMATE a lot of players right now.
Uncounterable damage for 'free' that also gives them some life so you cannot race them? Seems pretty good to me, but I dont know what they have to give up in the deck to put 4 in.
It is an uncounterable drain 3. I don't know if it makes dredge an absolute terror, but I think it gives the deck reach against control and lifegain against burn and other linear decks that are a bit faster.
On another note, I look at the top decks in modern and most have interaction. Burn, grixis shadow, UW control, mardu pyromancer, hollow one. There is plenty of mixtures of removal, counterspells and discard. I mean yeah, humans is more linear but its also disruptive and synergistic. I think this is the best modern format that has existed in my entire time playing for about four years. It is not some linear hellscape of solitaire matchups.
It is an uncounterable drain 3. I don't know if it makes dredge an absolute terror, but I think it gives the deck reach against control and lifegain against burn and other linear decks that are a bit faster.
On another note, I look at the top decks in modern and most have interaction. Burn, grixis shadow, UW control, mardu pyromancer, hollow one. There is plenty of mixtures of removal, counterspells and discard. I mean yeah, humans is more linear but its also disruptive and synergistic. I think this is the best modern format that has existed in my entire time playing for about four years. It is not some linear hellscape of solitaire matchups.
Humans has a lot of interaction. Its a disruptive aggro deck. Im glad its good because its a good police deck. It tells you to interact with it. Like the guy said before, I think that it could be good for Punishing FIre to be unbanned
Burn seems high is it inflated by being the cheapest Top Tier Modern Deck?
Yeah Creeping Chill seems stronger to me in Modern then Standard...Standard despite the multitude of cards that do stuff in the graveyard doesn't have an easy time binning stuff into the yard. Creeping Chill does double duty gets since draining life and/or gaining life is useful in almost any matchup except I guess combo killers and even then it might be the last bit of damage to finish the job.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't MTGGoldfish just take the 5-0 lists or something totally subjective? I've always understood that MTGGoldfish isn't a very reliable source for portraying the meta.
So, first page complained about no unban, page two portraying that people claimed Jace would end modern. Just need a twin post and the state of modern thread will have gone back to is steady-state.
So, first page complained about no unban, page two portraying that people claimed Jace would end modern. Just need a twin post and the state of modern thread will have gone back to is steady-state.
lol you are not claiming people DIDNT complain when Jace was unbanned are you? Btw I already snuck in a Twin complaint, state achieved my friend. :]
As to the MTGGoldfish, I'm not sure how it generates that list, thats why I was wondering. Burn did see an uptick, as it beats up on UW I believe without Helix.
The MTGGoldfish list is generated by the lists posted on the official wizards site showing 5-0 lists combined with top 8's and such. Because the wizards site is only a few lists each day shown at random with no repeats it causes a warped list to be produced.
Burn seems high is it inflated by being the cheapest Top Tier Modern Deck?
All numbers are almost entirely inflated. Due to the way results are reported, uncommon decks get pushed disproportionately UP and common/heavily played decks get pushed disproportionately DOWN. None of these numbers really mean anything. Any deck putting up more than 2% could in reality be 15%+ or <0.5% because Wizards prefers secrecy over transparency.
With the benefit of hindsight, SFM is not coming off while UW is a tier 1 deck. It's like, here is a deck whose strength lies in the lategame, now let's give it a tool to make its early-game better, so it can be good at all stages of the game, also keep in mind this deck is already tier 1 now...I just don't see the sense in that.
SFM does not fit into UW Miracles. It would not go into that deck. UW is a hard control deck, you don't want to be drawing dead cards like Swords or Batterskull. Terminus fills the same role that SFM would, which is being an early play that helps you stabilize. SFM just turns on people's dead removal, and makes you run 6 or 7 cards that don't really do anything.
No, SFM would create its own archetype. It would be more of a tap-out control style like the Stoneblade decks in Legacy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Even if they unban nothing, I simply want to know why. An overview like izzetmage provides above is all I am asking for, though adding some numbers, historical context, something, would be appreciated.
Either way, not worth talking about as clearly Wizards cant be bothered and we dont get a modern event until October 20th...huge 'zzzzzzzzzzzzz'.
What possible upside do they have to do this? At the absolute most it makes people like you happy. But this community holds grudges, remembers like elephants, and is incredibly literal. Any future action or inaction that could possibly be construed as not conforming to their write-up will be levied against them. The upside just isn't there to outweigh that.
Considering the massive hatred burn and tron see in the fanbase despite not being oppressive or even dominant, I think that is a fair assessment.
Yeah, not oppressive at all imo. Burn is a deck that sometimes will just win, but I find it fun to play against because of the excitement. Hey, and the games don't go long, so it's also not mentally taxing to play against them.
Would rather play three burn opponents in a row, than play against one Lantern control player - thank goodness Lantern seems to have mostly gone extinct already.
UW is doing well because it runs 4x Terminus. You think a 4 Terminus deck is going to cut 6-7 slots for a creature? Never mind a laughably weak one in today's meta?
That's just the first easy two cuts. Realistically you can cut 6 slots MD and 2 SB without much of an issue. The utility removal slots should go without saying. Then you just cut Teferi and you have 5 slots MD right off the hop from stock lists.
I guess I do gotta spell everything out in this forum still.
I simply disagree. Its going to weaken the main plan, and shore up what? Burn? So they go back to Naya (if they ever left it?) instead of RW, and thats all she wrote for your Batterskull.
I just dont see the current UW, as needing SFM. 6+ months ago? When it was all in on the Mana Denial plan? 100% no problem they could make cuts at that point.
Dropping Teferi, which is literally the card (+Search) that makes UWx a thing? For a creature?
"Modern is in a pretty good spot" and "Cards could and should come off the banned list" are not mutually exclusive, nor dependent on each other. One being true should have no impact on the other. People thought the format was going to come to an end with Jace, The Mind Sculptor unbanned, and it pretty much did nothing until paired with exactly Teferi, Field of Ruin, Opt, and Terminus, and is STILL not anywhere close to dominant.
Perhaps many of the fears and risks are being assessed by people who are incredibly terrible at evaluating cards and decks...
Why shouldn't modern's status and the status of the banlist not be related to each other? One exists (the banlist) LITERALLY to secure the safety of the other (modern's healthy meta-game).
Cards enter the banlist if modern is in a BAD spot, i.e. if there is 1 dominant deck that needs to be nerfed or there are logistical problems with tournaments, or there is a card that affects way too many decks.
If cards getting in the banlist is dependent on modern's status, I don't see why cards coming OFF the banlist shouldn't. Even the argument about safety for some cards (e.g. SFM) is dependent on modern's health status. The claim is not "modern is healthy, therefore wizard's should unban a card" but rather Modern CAN HANDLE a certain card (in this case SFM), because of it's current status and power level.
Cards getting in and out of the banlist is ALWAYS dependent on the status and health of modern and this should not change. You don't unban cards at random.
We just saw a lot of Dredge decks in the latest challenge trying out the new Creeping Chill card.
Do you think the card has any legs in that deck or not? Has anyone played with the card? I am skeptical.
I played against it only once until now but got wrecked by the card. It gives Dredge kills out of nowhere by draining 3-6 and suddenly you're facing down a couple of hastey bloodghasts. The card definitely has potential, the real question is, what do you cut from an already tight MD to free 4 slots without lowering consistency.
Having 4 Chill and 4 Narcomoeba also gives you terrible opening hands, then again Dredge is arguably the best deck at mulliganing in the format.
Oh man...CFB article yesterday by Brian DeMars highlighted how popular and successful burn has been lately. I don't like my deck having a target on its back lol. It makes sense though. Humans is 40/60 at worst, Tron is a good matchup, and UW is basically a coinflip while UW also holds off worse matchups like hollow one. Toss in that people really seem to be trying to bring back Infect and I like what I see.
Some other thoughts from the article:
- yes, spirits decks are getting very popular. It was probably the most represented deck at my last pptq. It trades a little bit of disruption compared to humans and a more painful manabase for crazy CoCo plays and instant speed creatures. I'd play it if Hierarchs weren't worth a new tire.
- Tron dips from 7% metashare to 4% means its dead...yeah I don't think Tron is dead. Still solid against humans and UW though no longer quite overwhelming in the case of the latter. I understand that trophy will help BGx decks, but the reality is there have always been land destruction options for them like fulminator mage. The problem isn't disruption, its the lack of a clock. Tron still just gets to 7-8 mana and can topdeck bombs.
Expect to see a lot of burn this weekend at SCG Columbus. Last time there was a good showing, and I think normally Columbus has a good burn representation
Oh man...CFB article yesterday by Brian DeMars highlighted how popular and successful burn has been lately. I don't like my deck having a target on its back lol. It makes sense though. Humans is 40/60 at worst, Tron is a good matchup, and UW is basically a coinflip while UW also holds off worse matchups like hollow one. Toss in that people really seem to be trying to bring back Infect and I like what I see.
Some other thoughts from the article:
- yes, spirits decks are getting very popular. It was probably the most represented deck at my last pptq. It trades a little bit of disruption compared to humans and a more painful manabase for crazy CoCo plays and instant speed creatures. I'd play it if Hierarchs weren't worth a new tire.
- Tron dips from 7% metashare to 4% means its dead...yeah I don't think Tron is dead. Still solid against humans and UW though no longer quite overwhelming in the case of the latter. I understand that trophy will help BGx decks, but the reality is there have always been land destruction options for them like fulminator mage. The problem isn't disruption, its the lack of a clock. Tron still just gets to 7-8 mana and can topdeck bombs.
This article is a great picture into the seemingly contradictory nature of the format, which I feel is the underlying reason its touted as both the 'best format' and 'worst pro format'.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
I'm convinced its people who dont grind out match after match after match. They probably dont even play weekly, or (as with most content producers and pro's) they have opinions that need to generate clicks for their sponsors.
It is absolutely unbelievable to me that there are people who actually thought Jace was going to end Modern. Not 'maybe kind of' but 'this is the worst thing ever and I'm going to jam 4 Disrupting Shoal and 4 JtMS and I'll tap out on Turn 4 and lol and nobody will win and you will all hate me as I FATESEAL YOU'.
In Modern? In 2018? Wake up people!
Meanwhile all these decks that dont interact are getting dunked on right now by a combo that was too weak before (Knight of the Reliquary + Retreat to Coralhelm) because people dont even have a Bolt for the Bird on Turn 1. I'm embarrassed for them, because its a self fulfilling prophecy. Twin would DECIMATE a lot of players right now.
Spirits
Spirits
On another note, I look at the top decks in modern and most have interaction. Burn, grixis shadow, UW control, mardu pyromancer, hollow one. There is plenty of mixtures of removal, counterspells and discard. I mean yeah, humans is more linear but its also disruptive and synergistic. I think this is the best modern format that has existed in my entire time playing for about four years. It is not some linear hellscape of solitaire matchups.
Humans has a lot of interaction. Its a disruptive aggro deck. Im glad its good because its a good police deck. It tells you to interact with it. Like the guy said before, I think that it could be good for Punishing FIre to be unbanned
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
This is what its at right now.
Burn: 6.25%
Humans: 5.88%
UW Terminus: 5.5%
G-Affinity: 4.75%
Bant Spirits: 4.25%
G-Tron: 4.12%
Hollow One: 3.38%
Jund: 2.62%
Mardu: 2.62%
Storm: 2.62%
UWR: 2.5%
UR Blue Moon Thing: 2.25%
GDS: 2.12%
Bogles: 2.12%
Good luck metagaming that. lol
Spirits
Yeah Creeping Chill seems stronger to me in Modern then Standard...Standard despite the multitude of cards that do stuff in the graveyard doesn't have an easy time binning stuff into the yard. Creeping Chill does double duty gets since draining life and/or gaining life is useful in almost any matchup except I guess combo killers and even then it might be the last bit of damage to finish the job.
lol you are not claiming people DIDNT complain when Jace was unbanned are you? Btw I already snuck in a Twin complaint, state achieved my friend. :]
As to the MTGGoldfish, I'm not sure how it generates that list, thats why I was wondering. Burn did see an uptick, as it beats up on UW I believe without Helix.
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
No, SFM would create its own archetype. It would be more of a tap-out control style like the Stoneblade decks in Legacy.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Spirits
Yeah, not oppressive at all imo. Burn is a deck that sometimes will just win, but I find it fun to play against because of the excitement. Hey, and the games don't go long, so it's also not mentally taxing to play against them.
Would rather play three burn opponents in a row, than play against one Lantern control player - thank goodness Lantern seems to have mostly gone extinct already.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I'd personally just cut the teferi.
Cut 2 Teferi for 1 Creature and an Equipment?
EDIT: I just cannot get over the idea of this. Its enough honestly for me to hope its unbanned simply so I can WITNESS this sequence.
Turn 2, SFM.
Turn 3, Activate, Place Batterskull on the Table.
Opponent Responds with K-Command, and I make this face.
Spirits
That's just the first easy two cuts. Realistically you can cut 6 slots MD and 2 SB without much of an issue. The utility removal slots should go without saying. Then you just cut Teferi and you have 5 slots MD right off the hop from stock lists.
I guess I do gotta spell everything out in this forum still.
I just dont see the current UW, as needing SFM. 6+ months ago? When it was all in on the Mana Denial plan? 100% no problem they could make cuts at that point.
Dropping Teferi, which is literally the card (+Search) that makes UWx a thing? For a creature?
Nope. It would need to be a new deck.
Spirits
Cards enter the banlist if modern is in a BAD spot, i.e. if there is 1 dominant deck that needs to be nerfed or there are logistical problems with tournaments, or there is a card that affects way too many decks.
If cards getting in the banlist is dependent on modern's status, I don't see why cards coming OFF the banlist shouldn't. Even the argument about safety for some cards (e.g. SFM) is dependent on modern's health status. The claim is not "modern is healthy, therefore wizard's should unban a card" but rather Modern CAN HANDLE a certain card (in this case SFM), because of it's current status and power level.
Cards getting in and out of the banlist is ALWAYS dependent on the status and health of modern and this should not change. You don't unban cards at random.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I played against it only once until now but got wrecked by the card. It gives Dredge kills out of nowhere by draining 3-6 and suddenly you're facing down a couple of hastey bloodghasts. The card definitely has potential, the real question is, what do you cut from an already tight MD to free 4 slots without lowering consistency.
Having 4 Chill and 4 Narcomoeba also gives you terrible opening hands, then again Dredge is arguably the best deck at mulliganing in the format.
Some other thoughts from the article:
- yes, spirits decks are getting very popular. It was probably the most represented deck at my last pptq. It trades a little bit of disruption compared to humans and a more painful manabase for crazy CoCo plays and instant speed creatures. I'd play it if Hierarchs weren't worth a new tire.
- Tron dips from 7% metashare to 4% means its dead...yeah I don't think Tron is dead. Still solid against humans and UW though no longer quite overwhelming in the case of the latter. I understand that trophy will help BGx decks, but the reality is there have always been land destruction options for them like fulminator mage. The problem isn't disruption, its the lack of a clock. Tron still just gets to 7-8 mana and can topdeck bombs.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
This article is a great picture into the seemingly contradictory nature of the format, which I feel is the underlying reason its touted as both the 'best format' and 'worst pro format'.
A link for folks.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-5-most-important-trends-in-modern-to-know-right-now/
Spirits