Golgari Midrange vs Grixis Shadow in the finals! <3
No video coverage. </3
Awesome finals for sure. So glad we got to see the irrelevant GP Liverpool Team metagame instead...
One of my main takeaways from this weekend is that UWx Control is no longer Tier 1. But BGx is much more viable than people had claimed, with Jund in the SCG T4 and BG in the GP finals. GDS, Phoenix, and Faeries also showing teeth, and Stirrings decks falling short despite clear representation. Overall a healthy GP and a good testament to Modern adaptibilty. GP Oakland will be the next big event, and another T8 like this would suggest a far healthier Modern than GP ATL showcased.
Lol and to think we spent a whole week on midrange being dead here granted best not to overrate off two events.
I mean not sure how Death Shadow got back I suppose everyone shifting to deal with Phoenix and Dredge and KCI means the hate against it is weak. Golgari makes more sense I suppose it can maindeck some very effective graveyard hate that is not dead in other matchups.
Control problem is probably too many different threats you have to counter. The Weak Counterspells and Cantrips with a supreme reliance on Terminus probably doesn't help. Will see if next Ravnica set helps.
But really looking at the whole Portland meta is like I don't even know that is not the meta we have seen anywhere else in the Top 8: 2 Izzet Phoenix, Grixis Death Shadow, Izzet Storm, Golgari Midrange, Dimir Control, Abzan Evolution, and Golgari Elves. That makes it intriguing but also maybe just a massive outlier. Still gives hope. I like that meta more then Dredge and KCI everywhere that is for sure.
I foresee Stinkweed Imp, and Ancient Stirrings, and a larger chance than most realize; Aether Vial being the ban targets before the Pro Tour at this stage of the game.
I can't see Dredge surviving past this next announcement, the free multiple Lightning Helix to the face has changed so many horrible matchups the deck naturally had without massive graveyard hate. The Ancient Stirrings question is still interesting after all this time, and at this point it would baffle me if KCI and Tron could possibly exist in the next Pro Tour in their current iterations.
I'm unsure of the cards, but this feeling creeps in my skin saying we will have two bans, and two unbans for the next Pro Tour.
Meh Aether Vial was never bad enough to justify it besides its been clear WOTC is quite fond of tribal decks.
As for Stirrings I stand by the argument that Tron would survive just fine with Oath of Nissa instead of Stirrings while KCI would take a much needed hit.
Yes the simplest way to revert Dredge is to just ban Chill. How anyone thought that was balanced I don't get? An uncounterable free 6 point lifeswing.
I agree the simplest reading of GP Portland is that Dredge and KCI have suppressed the natural predators of quite a few of these decks that popped up. Be interesting to see if this holds.
I don't see what the significance of this statistic is. So what are you implying?
In that same 6 out of the first 7, one can also find lightning bolt, mox opal, serum visions, noble hierarch, collected company etc. Shall we start taking note of those as well?
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I just want to say that Yuta managed to Top8 this time with his Faeries deck (yes, it's Faeries, you can't talk me out of it!). This is the second GP in a row where he has a great performance with a similar list. Last GP he played he missed Top8 on the last round going 12-3. This time he went 6-2 in Day 1 and 7-0 Day 2, which means that the deck performed better on an expected field of decks. In addition, he is not running any MB GY hate which is surprising if we compare it to other midrange decks.
Once again it shows that proficiency with an archetype, tight play, and correct mapping of the metagame can get CONSISTENT results.
PS: I don't know if this has been posted but: https://twitter.com/MagicOnline/status/1071114854298198017 @MagicOnline Dec 7
#MTGO is definitely still part of the Magic esports program. Players will still be able to qualify for tabletop Mythic Championships through Magic Online tournaments. For more about MTGO’s plans, @CKiritz's State of the Program article will be out next week on the MTGO site.
I don't see what the significance of this statistic is. So what are you implying?
In that same 6 out of the first 7, one can also find lightning bolt, mox opal, serum visions, noble hierarch, collected company etc. Shall we start taking note of those as well?
The only single common denominators for those decks are Stirrings, Looting and Vials. For example, Stirrings is being played on 3 distinct archetypes(Scales Affinity, Tron, KCI), while your serum visions paradigm only one, same with Lightning Bolt only on one (Izzet Phoenix and partly on KCI sideboard).
This is not to say we should ban or remove things, it's just to say how powerful really Ancient Stirrings is, a suspicion we already had.
Uhhh, the only card that has common denominators in the top 7 decks that you laid out is ancient stirrings, seeing play in 3 different decks. In that 7, only ONE uses Vial. That's not having common denominators. The other 2 yes. If you're extending that to the entire list other than the top 7 then yes I agree.
As you said, we all know how powerful stirrings and looting are, that hasn't changed for the past what 4 or 5 big events now? There's really no need to call special attention to any of those 3 cards.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I foresee Stinkweed Imp, and Ancient Stirrings, and a larger chance than most realize; Aether Vial being the ban targets before the Pro Tour at this stage of the game.
I can't see Dredge surviving past this next announcement, the free multiple Lightning Helix to the face has changed so many horrible matchups the deck naturally had without massive graveyard hate. The Ancient Stirrings question is still interesting after all this time, and at this point it would baffle me if KCI and Tron could possibly exist in the next Pro Tour in their current iterations.
I'm unsure of the cards, but this feeling creeps in my skin saying we will have two bans, and two unbans for the next Pro Tour.
Aether Vial? I'd seriously be shocked if that were to happen. Bant Spirits is leaning more on Collected Company, no? Humans is receding. Where does vial fit in here? I'm not sure these tribal decks can survive. You also kill Merfolk and Tax decks in the process. A vial ban would be completely idiotic. Humans was not so dominant for a long period that it would be warranted.
Stirrings is a whole other matter. I said two or three years ago that this card was going to be an issue going forward. Really not shocked. I wonder if Oath of Nissa would be enough to stuff in Tron.
Chilling ban isn't what should be banned, it's something like Stinkweed, or even something more dramatic like Amalgam or Ghast. Dredge is a problematic mechanic, I don't think WOTC should just have to keep banning every new card that breaks this mistake of a mechanic. Dredge being good in modern never has a positive impact.
Does anyone find the graveyard mechanic being TOO prevalent in modern? I feel as though all this grave hate would be needed even with dredge gone, no?
Stirrings and faithless looting would be the largest targets----not vial.
Why is there a need for anything to be banned? Modern has proven again that it has the ability to self-regulate well enough. Maybe as a community we need to see that perhaps we aren't that good at evaluating cards and decks right off the bat and not be in such a hurry to pitchfork something. It was shadow decks, then it was humans, then it was KCI, then it was dredge.
Looting, Stirrings and vial are enabling a good variety of decks, with varying scales of interactivity/linearity. We've had downright horrible top 8/16s, we've also had very healthy top 8/16s. All this shows is that Modern CAN adapt. Fair decks CAN rise up to beat the 'linear menace'.
Edit: In fact, the dreaded format boogeymen of KCI & Dredge that wrecked havoc in previous events, hardly got a look in here.
From the top 100 day 2 decks to the top 16. Stirrings decks as a whole under-performed(KCI 1/6, Tron 2/8 and Scales 0/7).
Looting decks converted decently on the back of excellent performance by Phoenix (4/7), dredge failed to convert at (0/5). Vial decks also under-performed with Spirits (2/14) and Humans (0/3).
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Vial is a turn-1 mana accelerant with narrow applicability. It's not CA, it's a dead top-deck later in the game. Modern is about explosive early turn. Cut vial, and multiple decks are no longer playable. Decks that are good but easily countered with removal and sweepers.
Thopter Sword was part of a winning strategy in Extended, not accomplishing anything of note in Modern. Goblins with vial might have been ban-worthy in extended. None of that really means anything in Modern. Extended as a format is fundamentally built differently from Modern, it is also a rotating format with a much smaller card pool.
Cards need to be evaluated in the context of each format. Vial has been in Modern since its inception, I struggle to remember a time when it was dominating for an extended period.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I don't see what the significance of this statistic is. So what are you implying?
In that same 6 out of the first 7, one can also find lightning bolt, mox opal, serum visions, noble hierarch, collected company etc. Shall we start taking note of those as well?
The only single common denominators for those decks are Stirrings, Looting and Vials. For example, Stirrings is being played on 3 distinct archetypes(Scales Affinity, Tron, KCI), while your serum visions paradigm only one, same with Lightning Bolt only on one (Izzet Phoenix and partly on KCI sideboard).
This is not to say we should ban or remove things, it's just to say how powerful really Ancient Stirrings is, a suspicion we already had.
Uhhh, the only card that has common denominators in the top 7 decks that you laid out is ancient stirrings, seeing play in 3 different decks. In that 7, only ONE uses Vial. That's not having common denominators. The other 2 yes. If you're extending that to the entire list other than the top 7 then yes I agree.
As you said, we all know how powerful stirrings is, that hasn't changed for the past what 4 or 5 big events now? There's really no need to call special attention to any of those 3 cards.
Of course, I extend this to all of the decks there. It's just that it's a huge wall of text to quote.
So? We agree that Ancient Stirrings is very, very powerful for yet again one more time.
To compare it with Lightning Bolt, though, is largely wrong.
Bottomline, is that if you want to win in Modern, you have got to be playing one of those 3 cards.
On the one hand, I agree that Stirrings again proves its a powerful card based on the weekend's results. The weekend also largely supports the notion that Hierarch/Vial, Looting, and Stirrings are top-tier things to do in Modern.
On the other hand, you're overselling your position. There is nothing actually worrisome about the GP Portland results. GDS only played two copies of Looting in the finals. BG Rock, Elves, and Storm played zero copies of any of those so-called "you have got to be playing one of those 3 cards" pillars. Abzan Evolution played Hierarch instead of Vial anyway. Over in SCG land, Fabiano's Jund was in the T4 with none of those cards, as was Kiihne's Storm. GP Liverpool also didn't even see every top team playing a Vial/Hierarch, Looting, Stirring deck. The T4 saw Storm, UW Control, and Bogles with none of those cards. GDS played only two copies. 5th - 10th at the same event saw UW Control, Izzet Thing, Titanshift, BG Rock, and Esper Goryo's all pass on the cards. It's clearly not a requirement to play one of these three powerful engines. You can enjoy major event success without them, and the cards power up different archetypes (e.g. Hierarch in Humans, Infect, Abzan Evolution, etc.).
Continued ban talk about any of those three cards is not justified based on this weekend's results. The cards simply weren't as dominant as people are claiming. I'm all for scrutinizing Stirrings' finishes to verify the card's fairness in Modern, but this weekend did not support a case for concern. The only potential ban targets right now could be a) a targeted KCI ban that Wizards believes doesn't destroy the deck, like Trawler, and/or b) a targeted Dredge ban that Wizards believes doesn't destroy the deck, like Imp/Thug/Chill. The former ban would be because KCI has disproportionate T8 finishes, creates logistical issues, and/or is the best deck in the format. The second ban would be because Dredge promotes a battle of sideboards, which as we saw in the GGT case, doesn't actually require Dredge to take T8 at major events.
Vial Goblins was also a Chrome Mox deck, on top of having 8 betterBuglers that aren't in the Modern card pool. The better Buglers not only let you fight through removal, but also overcome the negative CA from Mox.
Affinity...well, I don't think I need to explain...
Does anyone find the graveyard mechanic being TOO prevalent in modern? I feel as though all this grave hate would be needed even with dredge gone, no?
That isn't really a modern exclusive thing. Many of good cards simply rely on the graveyard. Snapcaster, Gofy, Angler, Tasigur, Deathrite, Ooze, etc.
Many decks utilize the graveyard even if they don't have a dedicated strategy around it.
I also find nothing wrong with that. The graveyard is a normal zone of the game just like all others. If utilizing those resources shouldn't be the case then you might as well get rid of it entirely and just have an exile zone.
It's not so much "broken stuff uses the gy," as it is that MtG is a game of resources. That is particularly true in eternal formats with older design philosophy that had less emphasis on creatures and planeswalkers. If you can use the gy as a resource, you have more stuff than someone who can't.
How useful is engineered explosives against the current meta? It looks rather pricey even at the 30 dollar mark.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
Awesome finals for sure. So glad we got to see the irrelevant GP Liverpool Team metagame instead...
One of my main takeaways from this weekend is that UWx Control is no longer Tier 1. But BGx is much more viable than people had claimed, with Jund in the SCG T4 and BG in the GP finals. GDS, Phoenix, and Faeries also showing teeth, and Stirrings decks falling short despite clear representation. Overall a healthy GP and a good testament to Modern adaptibilty. GP Oakland will be the next big event, and another T8 like this would suggest a far healthier Modern than GP ATL showcased.
Why the hell aren't they showing this??
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'd love if BG Rock took off.
Spirits
I mean not sure how Death Shadow got back I suppose everyone shifting to deal with Phoenix and Dredge and KCI means the hate against it is weak. Golgari makes more sense I suppose it can maindeck some very effective graveyard hate that is not dead in other matchups.
Control problem is probably too many different threats you have to counter. The Weak Counterspells and Cantrips with a supreme reliance on Terminus probably doesn't help. Will see if next Ravnica set helps.
But really looking at the whole Portland meta is like I don't even know that is not the meta we have seen anywhere else in the Top 8: 2 Izzet Phoenix, Grixis Death Shadow, Izzet Storm, Golgari Midrange, Dimir Control, Abzan Evolution, and Golgari Elves. That makes it intriguing but also maybe just a massive outlier. Still gives hope. I like that meta more then Dredge and KCI everywhere that is for sure.
I can't see Dredge surviving past this next announcement, the free multiple Lightning Helix to the face has changed so many horrible matchups the deck naturally had without massive graveyard hate. The Ancient Stirrings question is still interesting after all this time, and at this point it would baffle me if KCI and Tron could possibly exist in the next Pro Tour in their current iterations.
I'm unsure of the cards, but this feeling creeps in my skin saying we will have two bans, and two unbans for the next Pro Tour.
As for Stirrings I stand by the argument that Tron would survive just fine with Oath of Nissa instead of Stirrings while KCI would take a much needed hit.
Yes the simplest way to revert Dredge is to just ban Chill. How anyone thought that was balanced I don't get? An uncounterable free 6 point lifeswing.
I agree the simplest reading of GP Portland is that Dredge and KCI have suppressed the natural predators of quite a few of these decks that popped up. Be interesting to see if this holds.
I don't see what the significance of this statistic is. So what are you implying?
In that same 6 out of the first 7, one can also find lightning bolt, mox opal, serum visions, noble hierarch, collected company etc. Shall we start taking note of those as well?
Once again it shows that proficiency with an archetype, tight play, and correct mapping of the metagame can get CONSISTENT results.
PS: I don't know if this has been posted but: https://twitter.com/MagicOnline/status/1071114854298198017
@MagicOnline Dec 7
#MTGO is definitely still part of the Magic esports program. Players will still be able to qualify for tabletop Mythic Championships through Magic Online tournaments. For more about MTGO’s plans, @CKiritz's State of the Program article will be out next week on the MTGO site.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Uhhh, the only card that has common denominators in the top 7 decks that you laid out is ancient stirrings, seeing play in 3 different decks. In that 7, only ONE uses Vial. That's not having common denominators. The other 2 yes. If you're extending that to the entire list other than the top 7 then yes I agree.
As you said, we all know how powerful stirrings and looting are, that hasn't changed for the past what 4 or 5 big events now? There's really no need to call special attention to any of those 3 cards.
Aether Vial? I'd seriously be shocked if that were to happen. Bant Spirits is leaning more on Collected Company, no? Humans is receding. Where does vial fit in here? I'm not sure these tribal decks can survive. You also kill Merfolk and Tax decks in the process. A vial ban would be completely idiotic. Humans was not so dominant for a long period that it would be warranted.
Stirrings is a whole other matter. I said two or three years ago that this card was going to be an issue going forward. Really not shocked. I wonder if Oath of Nissa would be enough to stuff in Tron.
Chilling ban isn't what should be banned, it's something like Stinkweed, or even something more dramatic like Amalgam or Ghast. Dredge is a problematic mechanic, I don't think WOTC should just have to keep banning every new card that breaks this mistake of a mechanic. Dredge being good in modern never has a positive impact.
Does anyone find the graveyard mechanic being TOO prevalent in modern? I feel as though all this grave hate would be needed even with dredge gone, no?
Stirrings and faithless looting would be the largest targets----not vial.
I have no clue what should be banned.
Also, did they announce when the pro tour was?
Why? It was previously banned in Extended for the exact same reasons it's popular now.
Looting, Stirrings and vial are enabling a good variety of decks, with varying scales of interactivity/linearity. We've had downright horrible top 8/16s, we've also had very healthy top 8/16s. All this shows is that Modern CAN adapt. Fair decks CAN rise up to beat the 'linear menace'.
Edit: In fact, the dreaded format boogeymen of KCI & Dredge that wrecked havoc in previous events, hardly got a look in here.
From the top 100 day 2 decks to the top 16. Stirrings decks as a whole under-performed(KCI 1/6, Tron 2/8 and Scales 0/7).
Looting decks converted decently on the back of excellent performance by Phoenix (4/7), dredge failed to convert at (0/5). Vial decks also under-performed with Spirits (2/14) and Humans (0/3).
EDIT:
found a very old article. Vial got banned years ago in Extended because of Affinity and Goblins.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/septembers-minor-tweaks-2005-09-02
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Cards need to be evaluated in the context of each format. Vial has been in Modern since its inception, I struggle to remember a time when it was dominating for an extended period.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
On the one hand, I agree that Stirrings again proves its a powerful card based on the weekend's results. The weekend also largely supports the notion that Hierarch/Vial, Looting, and Stirrings are top-tier things to do in Modern.
On the other hand, you're overselling your position. There is nothing actually worrisome about the GP Portland results. GDS only played two copies of Looting in the finals. BG Rock, Elves, and Storm played zero copies of any of those so-called "you have got to be playing one of those 3 cards" pillars. Abzan Evolution played Hierarch instead of Vial anyway. Over in SCG land, Fabiano's Jund was in the T4 with none of those cards, as was Kiihne's Storm. GP Liverpool also didn't even see every top team playing a Vial/Hierarch, Looting, Stirring deck. The T4 saw Storm, UW Control, and Bogles with none of those cards. GDS played only two copies. 5th - 10th at the same event saw UW Control, Izzet Thing, Titanshift, BG Rock, and Esper Goryo's all pass on the cards. It's clearly not a requirement to play one of these three powerful engines. You can enjoy major event success without them, and the cards power up different archetypes (e.g. Hierarch in Humans, Infect, Abzan Evolution, etc.).
Continued ban talk about any of those three cards is not justified based on this weekend's results. The cards simply weren't as dominant as people are claiming. I'm all for scrutinizing Stirrings' finishes to verify the card's fairness in Modern, but this weekend did not support a case for concern. The only potential ban targets right now could be a) a targeted KCI ban that Wizards believes doesn't destroy the deck, like Trawler, and/or b) a targeted Dredge ban that Wizards believes doesn't destroy the deck, like Imp/Thug/Chill. The former ban would be because KCI has disproportionate T8 finishes, creates logistical issues, and/or is the best deck in the format. The second ban would be because Dredge promotes a battle of sideboards, which as we saw in the GGT case, doesn't actually require Dredge to take T8 at major events.
Vial Goblins was also a Chrome Mox deck, on top of having 8 better Buglers that aren't in the Modern card pool. The better Buglers not only let you fight through removal, but also overcome the negative CA from Mox.
Affinity...well, I don't think I need to explain...
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
That isn't really a modern exclusive thing. Many of good cards simply rely on the graveyard. Snapcaster, Gofy, Angler, Tasigur, Deathrite, Ooze, etc.
Many decks utilize the graveyard even if they don't have a dedicated strategy around it.
I also find nothing wrong with that. The graveyard is a normal zone of the game just like all others. If utilizing those resources shouldn't be the case then you might as well get rid of it entirely and just have an exile zone.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well 60 days ago they were going for 105 apiece, so I'm snapping some up at 30.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]