Doing the overnight shift feedings for the newborn means I won't get to see the results till around noon PST. Looking forward to never having to play against KCI, brewing terrible decks with Stoneforge after selling my extra copies for exorbitant markup, and complaining that Twin is still unjustly banned. See you all after the announcement!
Turns out body doesn't want to sleep.
Anyway, what a depressingly underwhelming update. Lots of info on KCI, and absolutely nothing on the status of the format or any indication of unbans.
Nice to see that they addressed community concerns about stirrings by painting it in a positive light (while also mentioning that they'll keep an eye on it). Can't say fairer than that.
Also, as an owner and player of KCI. thank goodness. I'm freeeeeeeee
Lol was I the only person who honestly enjoyed playing the deck? I've heard other people say they were just playing it because it was that good, haven't really seemed to be many actual fans of KCI, other than myself.
I really liked the article they wrote on their decisions. I think banning a card that only goes in the one deck (ironworks itself) was the right decision
Doing the overnight shift feedings for the newborn means I won't get to see the results till around noon PST. Looking forward to never having to play against KCI, brewing terrible decks with Stoneforge after selling my extra copies for exorbitant markup, and complaining that Twin is still unjustly banned. See you all after the announcement!
Turns out body doesn't want to sleep.
Anyway, what a depressingly underwhelming update. Lots of info on KCI, and absolutely nothing on the status of the format or any indication of unbans.
They gave that information:
Given that Modern has looked healthy and diverse at many levels of play outside of Ironworks's dominance at the Grand Prix level, we decided to target the card that only affects the Ironworks deck: Krark-Clan Ironworks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Doing the overnight shift feedings for the newborn means I won't get to see the results till around noon PST. Looking forward to never having to play against KCI, brewing terrible decks with Stoneforge after selling my extra copies for exorbitant markup, and complaining that Twin is still unjustly banned. See you all after the announcement!
Turns out body doesn't want to sleep.
Anyway, what a depressingly underwhelming update. Lots of info on KCI, and absolutely nothing on the status of the format or any indication of unbans.
Emphasis added. A lack of unbans is depressing, but the update has critical information about the status of the format. See just a selection of quotes below:
"Given that Modern has looked healthy and diverse at many levels of play outside of Ironworks's dominance at the Grand Prix level"
(R&D believes that Modern is currently healthy and diverse, except for GP, at multiple levels. This likely includes MTGO, GP, and smaller venues)
"As a category, we think these are generally healthy provided they appear in small doses and have reasonable win rates."
(Opal and Stirrings decks are not overperforming by any metric Wizards bases B&R decisions on. This notably includes metagame share and MWP)
"As Modern stands, our metagame data does not indicate a need to impact the other Ancient Stirrings or Mox Opal decks."
(Stirrings and Opal decks are currently at acceptable levels in Modern)
In summary, Wizards said that Modern is healthy and where they want it to be, except for KCI. Plus KCI and Stirrings are being monitored. That's quite a bit of information when all Wizards needed to do was just post the rationale for banning KCI itself.
Doing the overnight shift feedings for the newborn means I won't get to see the results till around noon PST. Looking forward to never having to play against KCI, brewing terrible decks with Stoneforge after selling my extra copies for exorbitant markup, and complaining that Twin is still unjustly banned. See you all after the announcement!
Turns out body doesn't want to sleep.
Anyway, what a depressingly underwhelming update. Lots of info on KCI, and absolutely nothing on the status of the format or any indication of unbans.
Emphasis added. A lack of unbans is depressing, but the update has critical information about the status of the format. See just a selection of quotes below:
"Given that Modern has looked healthy and diverse at many levels of play outside of Ironworks's dominance at the Grand Prix level"
(R&D believes that Modern is currently healthy and diverse, except for GP, at multiple levels. This likely includes MTGO, GP, and smaller venues)
"As a category, we think these are generally healthy provided they appear in small doses and have reasonable win rates."
(Opal and Stirrings decks are not overperforming by any metric Wizards bases B&R decisions on. This notably includes metagame share and MWP)
"As Modern stands, our metagame data does not indicate a need to impact the other Ancient Stirrings or Mox Opal decks."
(Stirrings and Opal decks are currently at acceptable levels in Modern)
In summary, Wizards said that Modern is healthy and where they want it to be, except for KCI. Plus KCI and Stirrings are being monitored. That's quite a bit of information when all Wizards needed to do was just post the rationale for banning KCI itself.
I skimmed it after about 4 hours of sleep.
Well good to know that the whack-a-mole s**tshow is officially considered healthy and their goal for Modern. I guess it's time to start selling off my expensive staples, because nothing is changing any time soon.
Holy *****, looks like someone from R&D paid attention to the community's reaction following the last B&R announcement (or rather lack thereof). Always disappointing when nothing comes off the list, but kudos to WotC for not just breaking down the reasoning behind the ban, but for uncharacteristically delving into the meta itself and providing us with some solid information. I won't hold my breath, but getting that sort of rundown / format overview with every B&R announcement would be a step in the right direction toward establishing some sort of communication with the player base.
Let's do this. You want me to say "NO" to you. So, obviously, no. What is your reasoning? Walk me through it. Then I can explain to you why this card has no upside at all in Wizard's eyes.
So if we accept for argument's sake that Twin did impact Modern's diversity when it was 12% of the meta (which I don't really believe, but we'll pretend it did for now), but we can agree that Twin at 0% of the meta would not adversely affect the diversity of the format, that means there is some number between 0 and 12 percent where Twin is playable, and perhaps even well represented, in the format while not yet impacting the diversity. So the real question we need to be discussing is what that number is, and if Twin would be at or below that number if it were unbanned today.
Personally, I don't buy the diversity argument even when Twin was at 12%, but I'm willing to say that Twin shouldn't be unbanned if it would still be 12% of the meta today. I just don't think that would be the case. Look at the difference between the Modern meta in 2015 versus today. There are a lot more powerful things you can do in Modern now than there were in 2015. Hell, the second and third best decks of 2015 (Jund and Affinity) are practically non-existent today. And this diversity and power increase aren't related to the Twin ban, it's because WotC has seeded powerful pieces for existing underpowered archetypes (Dredge, KCI, blue control, Fatal Push decks, Storm) or printed new powerful build-arounds that have spawned new archetypes (Phoenix, Humans, Spirits, Hardened Scales, Hollow One). Yes, the Twin shell has gotten some upgrades as well, but it's nowhere near the same magnitude as the growth of Modern as a whole. In fact, I would argue that Jund has gotten FAR superior upgrades compared to Twin in the last three years (Fatal Push, Bloodbraid Elf, Liliana the Last Hope, Collective Brutality, Tireless Tracker, Kalitas, Assassin's Trophy), and yet it's still floundering in Modern.
So if Twin could be unbanned and be like 6% of the format, it would be a huge win for the format as a whole. First of all, it's a beloved archetype that some people would like to get to play again. It probably wouldn't have a huge effect on the format at only 6% of the meta, but it would be a slight nudge away from the linear non-interactive decks and towards the fair interactive ones. Maybe combined with GDS and Humans, it could help push the format towards a healthier place. So there definitely is upside to a Twin unbanning, as long as it's within the current power level of the format and wouldn't dominate it again, which I don't believe it would.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
It seems everyone is generally supportive of this announcement to different degrees and the detailed analysis provided, but is anyone strongly against this ban? And if so, why?
So far this appears to be one of the most acceptible bans to the community, like eye of ugin or summer bloom.
It seems everyone is generally supportive of this announcement to different degrees and the detailed analysis provided, but is anyone strongly against this ban? And if so, why?
So far this appears to be one of the most acceptible bans to the community, like eye of ugin or summer bloom.
You had a bit of a perfect storm here.
1. Most players do not like Combo.
2. Most players do not like Combo that they 'cannot' (they can, but its harder) shut down with hate.
3. Most players hated Eggs already.
4. KCI won far too much for a fringe deck, a lot like Amulet.
Add those up, and its easy to see why people are accepting of the KCI ban, and actually are happy about it. I'd rather the deck not been murdered, I think it could have lived on as lower power, but it is what it is. Something had to be done to it, and now Eggs is dead forever.
The bigger question I have, is to those who actually REALLY think SFM is too good for Modern. I see it on Twitter too, and just cannot wrap my mind around it.
In no world, do I see SFM as actually being too strong. Like none.
Turns out body doesn't want to sleep.
Anyway, what a depressingly underwhelming update. Lots of info on KCI, and absolutely nothing on the status of the format or any indication of unbans.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Lol was I the only person who honestly enjoyed playing the deck? I've heard other people say they were just playing it because it was that good, haven't really seemed to be many actual fans of KCI, other than myself.
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StaffThanks Europe.
Spirits
They gave that information:
Modern:
Emphasis added. A lack of unbans is depressing, but the update has critical information about the status of the format. See just a selection of quotes below:
"Given that Modern has looked healthy and diverse at many levels of play outside of Ironworks's dominance at the Grand Prix level"
(R&D believes that Modern is currently healthy and diverse, except for GP, at multiple levels. This likely includes MTGO, GP, and smaller venues)
"As a category, we think these are generally healthy provided they appear in small doses and have reasonable win rates."
(Opal and Stirrings decks are not overperforming by any metric Wizards bases B&R decisions on. This notably includes metagame share and MWP)
"As Modern stands, our metagame data does not indicate a need to impact the other Ancient Stirrings or Mox Opal decks."
(Stirrings and Opal decks are currently at acceptable levels in Modern)
In summary, Wizards said that Modern is healthy and where they want it to be, except for KCI. Plus KCI and Stirrings are being monitored. That's quite a bit of information when all Wizards needed to do was just post the rationale for banning KCI itself.
You are welcome
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Just goes to show that
I skimmed it after about 4 hours of sleep.
Well good to know that the whack-a-mole s**tshow is officially considered healthy and their goal for Modern. I guess it's time to start selling off my expensive staples, because nothing is changing any time soon.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Spirits
Personally, I don't buy the diversity argument even when Twin was at 12%, but I'm willing to say that Twin shouldn't be unbanned if it would still be 12% of the meta today. I just don't think that would be the case. Look at the difference between the Modern meta in 2015 versus today. There are a lot more powerful things you can do in Modern now than there were in 2015. Hell, the second and third best decks of 2015 (Jund and Affinity) are practically non-existent today. And this diversity and power increase aren't related to the Twin ban, it's because WotC has seeded powerful pieces for existing underpowered archetypes (Dredge, KCI, blue control, Fatal Push decks, Storm) or printed new powerful build-arounds that have spawned new archetypes (Phoenix, Humans, Spirits, Hardened Scales, Hollow One). Yes, the Twin shell has gotten some upgrades as well, but it's nowhere near the same magnitude as the growth of Modern as a whole. In fact, I would argue that Jund has gotten FAR superior upgrades compared to Twin in the last three years (Fatal Push, Bloodbraid Elf, Liliana the Last Hope, Collective Brutality, Tireless Tracker, Kalitas, Assassin's Trophy), and yet it's still floundering in Modern.
So if Twin could be unbanned and be like 6% of the format, it would be a huge win for the format as a whole. First of all, it's a beloved archetype that some people would like to get to play again. It probably wouldn't have a huge effect on the format at only 6% of the meta, but it would be a slight nudge away from the linear non-interactive decks and towards the fair interactive ones. Maybe combined with GDS and Humans, it could help push the format towards a healthier place. So there definitely is upside to a Twin unbanning, as long as it's within the current power level of the format and wouldn't dominate it again, which I don't believe it would.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
It seems everyone is generally supportive of this announcement to different degrees and the detailed analysis provided, but is anyone strongly against this ban? And if so, why?
So far this appears to be one of the most acceptible bans to the community, like eye of ugin or summer bloom.
You had a bit of a perfect storm here.
1. Most players do not like Combo.
2. Most players do not like Combo that they 'cannot' (they can, but its harder) shut down with hate.
3. Most players hated Eggs already.
4. KCI won far too much for a fringe deck, a lot like Amulet.
Add those up, and its easy to see why people are accepting of the KCI ban, and actually are happy about it. I'd rather the deck not been murdered, I think it could have lived on as lower power, but it is what it is. Something had to be done to it, and now Eggs is dead forever.
The bigger question I have, is to those who actually REALLY think SFM is too good for Modern. I see it on Twitter too, and just cannot wrap my mind around it.
In no world, do I see SFM as actually being too strong. Like none.
Spirits
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StaffEDIT: Please mourn the loss of KCI in the new thread found here.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge