Yeah, and like he said, they're all too slow (or too unreliable, like Terminus).
i'm confused.
boardwipes are the rock to the paper of aggro decks. That's their purpose - to sideswipe the sorts of decks that dump their hand quickly and need to try to win with small creatures.
which fast aggro decks are currently terrorizing modern so badly that the current roster of sweepers are invalidated?
As far as i'm aware, aggro is just part of the tapestry. It has enough going for it that it's not an embarrassing choice at an FNM or GP. but... it's still a vulnerable strategy to 2-for-1s and sweepers. are we really at a point where we are complaining our sweeper options aren't good enough? For this line of thinking, there's the implied suggestion that aggro is too good and it's somehow problematic, and personally I don't see it.
please. help me out here.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Fluff is correct that sweepers are not in short supply nor are they very slow, the issue we have is that they are easily made irrelevant. If more sweepers were relevant they would be used, instead we see Terminus acting as the majority of sweepers.
No other sweeper acts like Terminus, and it is how Terminus acts that makes it better in this meta than the other sweepers. Is this a problem with sweepers or is this a problem with the meta? I say the meta. I can resolve Supreme Verdict easily, but that'll only stop Bloodghast for a moment, stop Phoenix for a moment, Amalgam for a moment. I can resolve my Uncounterable Gold Standard Sweeper easily, after I Path that hexproof Queller, after I Path that Freebooter protected by Meddling Mage. I think we can all agree that Supreme Verdict is and should be the gold standard of sweeper, right? Seriously, does anyone disagree? Well... It's not right now, it's bad right now, it doesn't accomplish that much right now. Many decks in the format easily make it irrelevant, so if this is to be the premium sweeper for Modern I would suggest we do some fixing to bring this back.
When did aggro become so resilient? It wasn't this resilient in the past. It never had time to look into my hand and snatch the answer I spent time, resources, and risk retrieving. Not without being called midrange, at least, and midrange wouldn't leave me at 7 life on T3 or 4 while doing it.
We have talked endlessly about how permanent based grave removal like RIP and Void do not do the job quite well enough to really push out these grave based aggro decks. In fact, while not aggro itself, we just banned a deck for being entirely too resilient against this type of hate and then continued to comment about how our sideboards aren't really changing. It is all too common and too easy for these decks to sift, find answers to hate, and keep pressure at the same time. I don't think we need more sweepers, I think we need a better answer to the graveyard being a second and better hand that "casts" things for free via abilities.
How we do that... Jeez, that's a little beyond me.
EDIT: Let me also say that I think Humans and Spirits are fine despite my ribbing of them, but them in concert with the grave decks drive me a little bananas.
Yeah, and like he said, they're all too slow (or too unreliable, like Terminus).
What? Wrath of God, aka 4 mana sorcery speed unconditional boardwipe, is the best sweeper there is and that we will ever gonna get. This is the ceiling for boardwipes and has always been, literally ALWAYS. Saying that wrath of god is too slow means you are not getting something about balancing design for magic.
In addition, as many already pointed out, which aggro deck is out there that control decks struggle against? We don't live in the days where affinity and zoo were dominant forces.
Fluff is correct that sweepers are not in short supply nor are they very slow, the issue we have is that they are easily made irrelevant. If more sweepers were relevant they would be used, instead we see Terminus acting as the majority of sweepers.
No other sweeper acts like Terminus, and it is how Terminus acts that makes it better in this meta than the other sweepers. Is this a problem with sweepers or is this a problem with the meta? I say the meta. I can resolve Supreme Verdict easily, but that'll only stop Bloodghast for a moment, stop Phoenix for a moment, Amalgam for a moment. I can resolve my Uncounterable Gold Standard Sweeper easily, after I Path that hexproof Queller, after I Path that Freebooter protected by Meddling Mage. I think we can all agree that Supreme Verdict is and should be the gold standard of sweeper, right? Seriously, does anyone disagree? Well... It's not right now, it's bad right now, it doesn't accomplish that much right now. Many decks in the format easily make it irrelevant, so if this is to be the premium sweeper for Modern I would suggest we do some fixing to bring this back.
When did aggro become so resilient? It wasn't this resilient in the past. It never had time to look into my hand and snatch the answer I spent time, resources, and risk retrieving. Not without being called midrange, at least, and midrange wouldn't leave me at 7 life on T3 or 4 while doing it.
We have talked endlessly about how permanent based grave removal like RIP and Void do not do the job quite well enough to really push out these grave based aggro decks. In fact, while not aggro itself, we just banned a deck for being entirely too resilient against this type of hate and then continued to comment about how our sideboards aren't really changing. It is all too common and too easy for these decks to sift, find answers to hate, and keep pressure at the same time. I don't think we need more sweepers, I think we need a better answer to the graveyard being a second and better hand that "casts" things for free via abilities.
How we do that... Jeez, that's a little beyond me.
EDIT: Let me also say that I think Humans and Spirits are fine despite my ribbing of them, but them in concert with the grave decks drive me a little bananas.
So why is Supreme Verdict somehow supposed to be the gold standard?
There isn't much reason to use when you can enable Terminus. Being uncounterable only matters against like GDS and Merfolk I guess. And then Terminus is cheap enough to respond to counter attempts with you own spells.
And this is not a Modern exclusive thing either. In other formats people are playing with it too and stuff like Toxic Deluge.
Like I said before. Terminus was always going to get played. It's like the best wrath ever printed. We just lacked viable ways to make it work and now they are there.
So why is Supreme Verdict somehow supposed to be the gold standard?
There isn't much reason to use when you can enable Terminus. Being uncounterable only matters against like GDS and Merfolk I guess. And then Terminus is cheap enough to respond to counter attempts with you own spells.
And this is not a Modern exclusive thing either. In other formats people are playing with it too and stuff like Toxic Deluge.
Like I said before. Terminus was always going to get played. It's like the best wrath ever printed. We just lacked viable ways to make it work and now they are there.
No reason. Could be Anger, could be Damnation, could be Wrath, but Supreme Verdict seems to align with some of WotC's design. They've moved away from regenerate, they seem to like the 4cmc spot, uncounterable is not really relevant but could be a trade off for the regeneration clause, and sorcery speed. I guess your question shifts to "Do we really need or want a standard sweeper?", and I would say probably not but it would help guide some level of acceptability for making new ones.
If Terminus is really the direction sweepers are going in*, then that's fine. I can't wait for our next "usually 1cmc instant almost exile sweeper". I would rather they not go that way though. My point is that I don't think we should look to things like Terminus as normal, so if Terminus shouldn't be normal then we shouldn't be forcing Terminus to be normal. If the meta is forcing Terminus to be normal then the meta needs some help getting back to not forcing Terminus to be normal. This is why I pushed up Verdict as some kind of false standard for what a sweeper should be; it's just an offering of what I think is a "normal" sweeper.
*By meta demands placed on control, not by WotC design philosophy.
So why does this matter? If you believe that the format is an ebb and flow back and forth across some years from one archetype being dominant to the next, then you'll want there to be some design space left open for it to flow into. If we start calling Terminus normal by forcing control decks to play it, then how can the meta ever flow back into control being the dominant archetype? In order to pull the meta in another direction, say for obvious example, from aggro to control, then we'd have to print some variety of Miracle Terminus without the Miracle so that control could have it's time in the light. Hyperbole? Maybe, but literally control is relying on Miracle Terminus to stay alive.
With Verdict as the relevant standard, we can staple other effects to it and change more things left and right. That's how we ended up with Sweltering Sun, Fumigate, or Kaya's Wrath. Those may not all be awesome stellar examples, but there are reasons to play them in different metas. I just don't think there's much design space left for sweepers beyond Terminus that would still be relevant given Terminus exists because Terminus is just very close to waaay to powerful.
More sweepers that exile would be really helpful. The reason why UW has been so successful is that Terminus deals with graveyard recursive creatures. Before we could play Terminus, there would be times you would wipe the board, and they would rebuild like you had done nothing on the next turn because of creatures that can come back from the graveyard. Anger of the Gods is great, but there is a lot of stuff it doesn't kill, so you can't really run 4 of them.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Well Terminus is the standard cause its fast enough to matter and deals with recursive creatures (its all great at creatures that exploited cost reduction to get cast). We don't need Terminus precisely but WOTC should explore other methods of cost reduction on board wipes or creatures/enchantments/artifacts that help prevent cost cheating on creatures. As I have said before Lavinia would be so much better and more useful in UW decks if she stopped cost cheating on creatures, not sorceries and instants. Preventing cheating on sorceries and instants is such more Gruul then Azorius.
Fluff is correct that sweepers are not in short supply nor are they very slow, the issue we have is that they are easily made irrelevant. If more sweepers were relevant they would be used, instead we see Terminus acting as the majority of sweepers.
No other sweeper acts like Terminus, and it is how Terminus acts that makes it better in this meta than the other sweepers. Is this a problem with sweepers or is this a problem with the meta? I say the meta. I can resolve Supreme Verdict easily, but that'll only stop Bloodghast for a moment, stop Phoenix for a moment, Amalgam for a moment. I can resolve my Uncounterable Gold Standard Sweeper easily, after I Path that hexproof Queller, after I Path that Freebooter protected by Meddling Mage. I think we can all agree that Supreme Verdict is and should be the gold standard of sweeper, right? Seriously, does anyone disagree? Well... It's not right now, it's bad right now, it doesn't accomplish that much right now. Many decks in the format easily make it irrelevant, so if this is to be the premium sweeper for Modern I would suggest we do some fixing to bring this back.
When did aggro become so resilient? It wasn't this resilient in the past. It never had time to look into my hand and snatch the answer I spent time, resources, and risk retrieving. Not without being called midrange, at least, and midrange wouldn't leave me at 7 life on T3 or 4 while doing it.
We have talked endlessly about how permanent based grave removal like RIP and Void do not do the job quite well enough to really push out these grave based aggro decks. In fact, while not aggro itself, we just banned a deck for being entirely too resilient against this type of hate and then continued to comment about how our sideboards aren't really changing. It is all too common and too easy for these decks to sift, find answers to hate, and keep pressure at the same time. I don't think we need more sweepers, I think we need a better answer to the graveyard being a second and better hand that "casts" things for free via abilities.
How we do that... Jeez, that's a little beyond me.
EDIT: Let me also say that I think Humans and Spirits are fine despite my ribbing of them, but them in concert with the grave decks drive me a little bananas.
XXYY
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures and exile all graveyards.
Idk, I'm bad at magic and even worse at design /shrug
We don't have a good Black Control Deck. Good for Death Shadow decks I guess. Clear out the chump blockers and swing in with ease. Although do you need it if you have Battle Rage?
Cry and Anger of the Gods are fine but they don't solve the issue of the aforementioned Death Shadow, Hollow Ones, Bedlam, Gurmag, flipped Thing, Drakes etc.
You are looking for crazy catch all that would be by the sounds of it grotesquely broken.
Nothing can, or SHOULD, handle all of those.
All of Dredge, DS, Thing, Phoenix? Ritual of Soot
Hollow One, Bedlam, Gurmag? Any Wrath, but I would go with Supreme Verdict
Elves and such? Anger of the Gods or Ritual of Soot, or Cry.
The problem is none of those are 'good enough' because Terminus is, when its good, AMAZING.
Grixis control needs Baleful Strix. Pretty ok vs death's shadow/angler. It ain't happening, but I think modern would be better for it. Sweepers aren't getting better unless they give us deluge, or unban ponder/preordain making terminus the better-er sweeper.
Grixis control needs Baleful Strix. Pretty ok vs death's shadow/angler. It ain't happening, but I think modern would be better for it. Sweepers aren't getting better unless they give us deluge, or unban ponder/preordain making terminus the better-er sweeper.
With UW/Jeskai/Phoenix/gds top8's, Preordain is out of the question. Don't forget there is the looming fear of Storm for Wizards also.
Which is a shame, because Forsythe himself showed us that he fundamentally does not understand how these decks operate.
Grixis control needs Baleful Strix. Pretty ok vs death's shadow/angler. It ain't happening, but I think modern would be better for it. Sweepers aren't getting better unless they give us deluge, or unban ponder/preordain making terminus the better-er sweeper.
Would love to see Baleful Strix in Modern, and its the kind of card that could, in theory, get to us via Standard. Unfortunate we have to wait for another busted Artifact Set.
Grixis control needs Baleful Strix. Pretty ok vs death's shadow/angler. It ain't happening, but I think modern would be better for it. Sweepers aren't getting better unless they give us deluge, or unban ponder/preordain making terminus the better-er sweeper.
Would love to see Baleful Strix in Modern, and its the kind of card that could, in theory, get to us via Standard. Unfortunate we have to wait for another busted Artifact Set.
Could easily be in a Core set.
Though, I guess a color-restricted 1/1 that draws a card, dies to a light sneeze, and trades in combat is WAYY TOO POWERFUL.
unfortunately, although strix has some non-zero chance of being printed in standard given certain conditions, i cannot ever see them doing it.
the card is just tailor made to dominate the type of gameplay that defines the format. aside from it being an artifact, its just a disproportionate amount of 'value' with no complexity or build-around applications.
it is a card i would really like in modern though so /shrug
as for sweepers, id agree with idsurge. strong(er) sweepers, especially ones that can take care of all creatures, are probably the quickest way for control to become oppressive. UW with terminus should give you glimpses of what that would be like.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
as for sweepers, id agree with idsurge. strong(er) sweepers, especially ones that can take care of all creatures, are probably the quickest way for control to become oppressive.
I love how "destroy all creatures" is now no longer considered "taking care of all creatures". Silly Modern. (Not a shot at you tronix, I 100% agree.)
Preordain would be a huge red flag for the format right now.
Maybe on the weird and twisted views of a B&R team that clearly and openly don't understand the format they are supposed to govern.
Preordain is not broken, nor does it enable anything broken. Its benefit to decks is incredibly minimal, and likely imperceptible outside of hundreds and hundreds test matches. Decks like GDS might not even run it, as many have given up Visions for a Looting/Scour/Bauble package to accelerate out Tasifish.
Izzet Phoenix would gobble it up, but again, it doesn't do anything dramatically different than the 20 cantrips it's already playing... It's pretty silly to remain banned. And if "it slots into an existing deck" is a non-starter, than simply BEING blue will prevent it from ever being unbanned, no matter how fine it is.
Meanwhile, Ancient Stirrings and Looting are both legal.
Grixis control needs Baleful Strix. Pretty ok vs death's shadow/angler. It ain't happening, but I think modern would be better for it. Sweepers aren't getting better unless they give us deluge, or unban ponder/preordain making terminus the better-er sweeper.
With UW/Jeskai/Phoenix/gds top8's, Preordain is out of the question. Don't forget there is the looming fear of Storm for Wizards also.
Which is a shame, because Forsythe himself showed us that he fundamentally does not understand how these decks operate.
Preordain would be a huge red flag for the format right now. GDS, Phoenix are both top tier decks, Storm is also great, and UW is solidly tier 2. I don't regard Jeskai as a deck that can take down a GP to be honest and I disagree with Aaron there.
Don't forget that SFM is not such a problem, because she does not power up so many tiered strategies.
I have long thought that Preordain (not Ponder - just Preordain) was fine for Modern. Not any longer, unfortunately. Now Twin and SFM are really the only viable unban targets.
Phoenix is the death knell for Preordain. None of the other decks really factor into it. Yes, it's an upgrade for each of them. But in some cases it either does not impact the turn the deck wins (Storm), or simply makes a fair deck slightly more viable in a largely unfair field (UW/x, GDS). Unfortunately it really amps up the turbo-xerox nature of the Phoenix deck which just can't happen right now.
EDIT: And most importantly, the latest B&R announcement specifically juxtaposed Stirrings and Preordain/Ponder again, making me think they still feel those "generic" blue spells are too much for the format.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
EDIT: And most importantly, the latest B&R announcement specifically juxtaposed Stirrings and Preordain/Ponder again, making me think they still feel those "generic" blue spells are too much for the format.
Which was probably the most depressing thing to read.
Preordain would be a huge red flag for the format right now.
Maybe on the weird and twisted views of a B&R team that clearly and openly don't understand the format they are supposed to govern.
Preordain is not broken, nor does it enable anything broken. Its benefit to decks is incredibly minimal, and likely imperceptible outside of hundreds and hundreds test matches. Decks like GDS might not even run it, as many have given up Visions for a Looting/Scour/Bauble package to accelerate out Tasifish.
Izzet Phoenix would gobble it up, but again, it doesn't do anything dramatically different than the 20 cantrips it's already playing... It's pretty silly to remain banned. And if "it slots into an existing deck" is a non-starter, than simply BEING blue will prevent it from ever being unbanned, no matter how fine it is.
Meanwhile, Ancient Stirrings and Looting are both legal.
Thank you. I am glad someone had the guts to say it.
We can go on for years and years, hearing "no changes" when decks that possibly use Preordain are Tier 2 or below. Then when decks that can use Preordain and get slightly powered up are doing well (and Heaven forbid, one of the best decks), then we have that as a current excuse for leaving it unbanned. I really do believe that Preordain is not the monster that people think it is. If the Phoenix deck does get a ban, you best believe that the reason for it being banned would have nothing to do with Preordain. Preordain may "1/3 of two 3/2s into play," but it does nothing to get them in the graveyard. Storm can always be used as a reason that Preordain cannot be unbanned. Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Gifts Ungiven, and Past in Flames could all literally be banned and someone would still say that "Storm will get too strong."
I am starting to really feel others' frustration that Wizards just doesn't want Preordain unbanned. I could foresee a much stronger format in the future with everything but Eye of Ugin, Mental Misstep, Ponder, and Preordain unbanned. That's sad when many of us know that they are not even in the same category. Consistency is not the Boogie Man that everyone thinks it is.
*Then again, maybe it's best that Preordain doesn't get unbanned. Wizards will just reban it with the reason that it broke Phoenix or whatever other deck was nearly the same without it. Maybe Wizards can say it would push Lantern Control too much; too easy to find Ensnaring Bridge, right?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I've long long long since given up on caring what Wizards thinks, because we know the format far better than they do.
Preordain wont come off, and guess what, it would do next to nothing even if it did come off. I'd rather Serum, draw a card (any, I have 19 other cantrips) and set up a sweet Looting for next Turn, than 'hmm I need one specific card...' thats not how most Modern decks function. Redundancy, resiliency, and speed, are what make Modern, Modern.
Preordain is not.that.strong. It simply isn't and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
Its fine though, because you have people also quaking in their chair's over SFM, which is literally comical, when killing creatures is what Modern decks DO. This isnt Legacy, this is Modern, and if you cannot answer creatures (because lord knows you are not likely countering them!) well then guess what, your deck sucks, and you are going to lose a lot.
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UW Spirits
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Specifically what board wipes and against what decks?
For example, I don't find AotG to be slow against Dredge and Elves.
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i'm confused.
boardwipes are the rock to the paper of aggro decks. That's their purpose - to sideswipe the sorts of decks that dump their hand quickly and need to try to win with small creatures.
which fast aggro decks are currently terrorizing modern so badly that the current roster of sweepers are invalidated?
As far as i'm aware, aggro is just part of the tapestry. It has enough going for it that it's not an embarrassing choice at an FNM or GP. but... it's still a vulnerable strategy to 2-for-1s and sweepers. are we really at a point where we are complaining our sweeper options aren't good enough? For this line of thinking, there's the implied suggestion that aggro is too good and it's somehow problematic, and personally I don't see it.
please. help me out here.
No other sweeper acts like Terminus, and it is how Terminus acts that makes it better in this meta than the other sweepers. Is this a problem with sweepers or is this a problem with the meta? I say the meta. I can resolve Supreme Verdict easily, but that'll only stop Bloodghast for a moment, stop Phoenix for a moment, Amalgam for a moment. I can resolve my Uncounterable Gold Standard Sweeper easily, after I Path that hexproof Queller, after I Path that Freebooter protected by Meddling Mage. I think we can all agree that Supreme Verdict is and should be the gold standard of sweeper, right? Seriously, does anyone disagree? Well... It's not right now, it's bad right now, it doesn't accomplish that much right now. Many decks in the format easily make it irrelevant, so if this is to be the premium sweeper for Modern I would suggest we do some fixing to bring this back.
When did aggro become so resilient? It wasn't this resilient in the past. It never had time to look into my hand and snatch the answer I spent time, resources, and risk retrieving. Not without being called midrange, at least, and midrange wouldn't leave me at 7 life on T3 or 4 while doing it.
We have talked endlessly about how permanent based grave removal like RIP and Void do not do the job quite well enough to really push out these grave based aggro decks. In fact, while not aggro itself, we just banned a deck for being entirely too resilient against this type of hate and then continued to comment about how our sideboards aren't really changing. It is all too common and too easy for these decks to sift, find answers to hate, and keep pressure at the same time. I don't think we need more sweepers, I think we need a better answer to the graveyard being a second and better hand that "casts" things for free via abilities.
How we do that... Jeez, that's a little beyond me.
EDIT: Let me also say that I think Humans and Spirits are fine despite my ribbing of them, but them in concert with the grave decks drive me a little bananas.
"Reveal a Dragon"
In addition, as many already pointed out, which aggro deck is out there that control decks struggle against? We don't live in the days where affinity and zoo were dominant forces.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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So why is Supreme Verdict somehow supposed to be the gold standard?
There isn't much reason to use when you can enable Terminus. Being uncounterable only matters against like GDS and Merfolk I guess. And then Terminus is cheap enough to respond to counter attempts with you own spells.
And this is not a Modern exclusive thing either. In other formats people are playing with it too and stuff like Toxic Deluge.
Like I said before. Terminus was always going to get played. It's like the best wrath ever printed. We just lacked viable ways to make it work and now they are there.
If Terminus is really the direction sweepers are going in*, then that's fine. I can't wait for our next "usually 1cmc instant almost exile sweeper". I would rather they not go that way though. My point is that I don't think we should look to things like Terminus as normal, so if Terminus shouldn't be normal then we shouldn't be forcing Terminus to be normal. If the meta is forcing Terminus to be normal then the meta needs some help getting back to not forcing Terminus to be normal. This is why I pushed up Verdict as some kind of false standard for what a sweeper should be; it's just an offering of what I think is a "normal" sweeper.
*By meta demands placed on control, not by WotC design philosophy.
So why does this matter? If you believe that the format is an ebb and flow back and forth across some years from one archetype being dominant to the next, then you'll want there to be some design space left open for it to flow into. If we start calling Terminus normal by forcing control decks to play it, then how can the meta ever flow back into control being the dominant archetype? In order to pull the meta in another direction, say for obvious example, from aggro to control, then we'd have to print some variety of Miracle Terminus without the Miracle so that control could have it's time in the light. Hyperbole? Maybe, but literally control is relying on Miracle Terminus to stay alive.
With Verdict as the relevant standard, we can staple other effects to it and change more things left and right. That's how we ended up with Sweltering Sun, Fumigate, or Kaya's Wrath. Those may not all be awesome stellar examples, but there are reasons to play them in different metas. I just don't think there's much design space left for sweepers beyond Terminus that would still be relevant given Terminus exists because Terminus is just very close to waaay to powerful.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Spirits
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
XXYY
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures and exile all graveyards.
Idk, I'm bad at magic and even worse at design /shrug
Cry of the Carnarium
Spirits
Cry and Anger of the Gods are fine but they don't solve the issue of the aforementioned Death Shadow, Hollow Ones, Bedlam, Gurmag, flipped Thing, Drakes etc.
Nothing can, or SHOULD, handle all of those.
All of Dredge, DS, Thing, Phoenix? Ritual of Soot
Hollow One, Bedlam, Gurmag? Any Wrath, but I would go with Supreme Verdict
Elves and such? Anger of the Gods or Ritual of Soot, or Cry.
The problem is none of those are 'good enough' because Terminus is, when its good, AMAZING.
Spirits
Which is a shame, because Forsythe himself showed us that he fundamentally does not understand how these decks operate.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Would love to see Baleful Strix in Modern, and its the kind of card that could, in theory, get to us via Standard. Unfortunate we have to wait for another busted Artifact Set.
Spirits
Could easily be in a Core set.
Though, I guess a color-restricted 1/1 that draws a card, dies to a light sneeze, and trades in combat is WAYY TOO POWERFUL.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
the card is just tailor made to dominate the type of gameplay that defines the format. aside from it being an artifact, its just a disproportionate amount of 'value' with no complexity or build-around applications.
it is a card i would really like in modern though so /shrug
as for sweepers, id agree with idsurge. strong(er) sweepers, especially ones that can take care of all creatures, are probably the quickest way for control to become oppressive. UW with terminus should give you glimpses of what that would be like.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)"Reveal a Dragon"
Maybe on the weird and twisted views of a B&R team that clearly and openly don't understand the format they are supposed to govern.
Preordain is not broken, nor does it enable anything broken. Its benefit to decks is incredibly minimal, and likely imperceptible outside of hundreds and hundreds test matches. Decks like GDS might not even run it, as many have given up Visions for a Looting/Scour/Bauble package to accelerate out Tasifish.
Izzet Phoenix would gobble it up, but again, it doesn't do anything dramatically different than the 20 cantrips it's already playing... It's pretty silly to remain banned. And if "it slots into an existing deck" is a non-starter, than simply BEING blue will prevent it from ever being unbanned, no matter how fine it is.
Meanwhile, Ancient Stirrings and Looting are both legal.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Phoenix is the death knell for Preordain. None of the other decks really factor into it. Yes, it's an upgrade for each of them. But in some cases it either does not impact the turn the deck wins (Storm), or simply makes a fair deck slightly more viable in a largely unfair field (UW/x, GDS). Unfortunately it really amps up the turbo-xerox nature of the Phoenix deck which just can't happen right now.
EDIT: And most importantly, the latest B&R announcement specifically juxtaposed Stirrings and Preordain/Ponder again, making me think they still feel those "generic" blue spells are too much for the format.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Which was probably the most depressing thing to read.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Thank you. I am glad someone had the guts to say it.
We can go on for years and years, hearing "no changes" when decks that possibly use Preordain are Tier 2 or below. Then when decks that can use Preordain and get slightly powered up are doing well (and Heaven forbid, one of the best decks), then we have that as a current excuse for leaving it unbanned. I really do believe that Preordain is not the monster that people think it is. If the Phoenix deck does get a ban, you best believe that the reason for it being banned would have nothing to do with Preordain. Preordain may "1/3 of two 3/2s into play," but it does nothing to get them in the graveyard. Storm can always be used as a reason that Preordain cannot be unbanned. Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Gifts Ungiven, and Past in Flames could all literally be banned and someone would still say that "Storm will get too strong."
I am starting to really feel others' frustration that Wizards just doesn't want Preordain unbanned. I could foresee a much stronger format in the future with everything but Eye of Ugin, Mental Misstep, Ponder, and Preordain unbanned. That's sad when many of us know that they are not even in the same category. Consistency is not the Boogie Man that everyone thinks it is.
*Then again, maybe it's best that Preordain doesn't get unbanned. Wizards will just reban it with the reason that it broke Phoenix or whatever other deck was nearly the same without it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Re: Sword of the Meek "Doesnt it make Lantern obnoxious?"
I've long long long since given up on caring what Wizards thinks, because we know the format far better than they do.
Preordain wont come off, and guess what, it would do next to nothing even if it did come off. I'd rather Serum, draw a card (any, I have 19 other cantrips) and set up a sweet Looting for next Turn, than 'hmm I need one specific card...' thats not how most Modern decks function. Redundancy, resiliency, and speed, are what make Modern, Modern.
Preordain is not.that.strong. It simply isn't and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
Its fine though, because you have people also quaking in their chair's over SFM, which is literally comical, when killing creatures is what Modern decks DO. This isnt Legacy, this is Modern, and if you cannot answer creatures (because lord knows you are not likely countering them!) well then guess what, your deck sucks, and you are going to lose a lot.
Spirits