This deck folds hard to control decks, this very much I know. It's not a problem, and it's never going to be, unless if something stupid gets printed.
Now, is it obnoxious to play against? Yep, it is.
As said by many people in the community, the KCI ban really does nothing to change anything meaningful about Modern. The most it accomplishes is gives people the false sense of security that you don't absolutely still need specific and narrow hate for artifacts and graveyards. Which then paves the way for a few niche decks like Dredge and artifact prison decks to spike a few events.
This is the kind of ban that SHOULD have taken place with Summer Bloom: Remove a problematic, complex, and ridiculously powerful deck from the format, and leave the rest the hell alone.
This deck folds hard to control decks, this very much I know. It's not a problem, and it's never going to be, unless if something stupid gets printed.
Now, is it obnoxious to play against? Yep, it is.
As for what I have seen it purely depends on how exactly the Control deck is build and how many Needle effects the Whirl list plays.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
So, seeing all the negativity around here: Am I the only one who enjoys Modern so much right now, especially after the banning of this toxic KCI deck?
Probably? KCI being banned changes absolutely nothing about the other issues with the format. If you like what we had before, and still like what we have now, then you're in for a treat, because it's not likely to ever change.
I am personally burnt out on the rat race roulette wheel of matchups, but luckily my local meta is full of stubborn people playing black-based interactive decks, instead of most of the degenerate nonsense that fills MTGO. I've long since given up trying to play any kind of meaningful reactive control or tempo deck, and have gone straight to disruptive aggro. I'm just trying to justify continuing to play because I don't want to regret selling thousands of dollars of cards just to see the format make a swift change for the better. But overall, it's not awesome.
This deck folds hard to control decks, this very much I know. It's not a problem, and it's never going to be, unless if something stupid gets printed.
Now, is it obnoxious to play against? Yep, it is.
As for what I have seen it purely depends on how exactly the Control deck is build and how many Needle effects the Whirl list plays.
Greetings,
Kathal
Speaking from (mild) experience, UW Control is an absolute beating, UR slightly better, and Jeskai a little better than that. Cryptic + Planeswalker is very good, especially once you drop all your removal for better counters/hate. The prison deck can be tuned to improve the match up, but unsurprisingly what hits control is rarely useful elsewhere.
I believe the only win con MB in the latest version is looping Ipnu Rivulet; post-board it can be something like Ghirapur Aether Grid, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and/or Sai.
So, seeing all the negativity around here: Am I the only one who enjoys Modern so much right now, especially after the banning of this toxic KCI deck?
I think Modern is a ton of fun right now. The decks are varied and interesting, and nothing is unbeatable. I'm really interested to see how Burn shakes out in a month or two as players start to figure out how to make the best use of Light up the Stage and Skewer the Critics. I've really enjoyed Modern at pretty much every point since the beginning of 2017, it feels like the best the format's ever been.
How can you say that KCI changed nothing, since it made for some unfun, uninteractive, super long games, filled with super weird interactions, and it's win rate was super high in game 1(a-la you basically were losing game 1, then hoping to draw your white cards post sideboard)?
I am pretty sure, from all of the reactions on Reddit and on Twitter that the banning of KCI changed a lot in Modern.
Because that ban only affected that deck and it's meta share was not very big as the deck was not very popular so the meta hasn't changed that much as a consequence of the ban, in fact, RNA had a much bigger impact on the meta than the KCI ban as Vannifar decks are popping out and Spectacle cards are seeing a lot of play. Of course there is some impact from banning KCI but it is quite small when you compare it to pretty much anything else. It is unlikely that an old deck makes a resurgence as KCI left because no deck was being oppressed by it, it simply was performing better than the rest of the field.
This quote from idSurge also. It's his opinion, and of course I respect it.
But, it does not help at all if you are putting words like nothing in sentences and in your claims. Maybe he changed nothing to id, because he did not had to play vs the KCI deck often enough.
Also, what are the other issues of the format? It's extremely diverse, fun, not as much uninteractive as it was with KCI, what more do you want?
TLDR: Let's not make wild, extreme claims and let's not be vocal about them!
Sorry, I missed idSurge comment and you probably were referring to it.
I actually understand why people can feel like "nothing" changed, and by "nothing" I mean very little (something has changed and for good but I believe it had a very low impact on the format overall).
Modern is diverse as you state and in such a diverse format, you were likely not going to face KCI more than 2-3 rounds in a whole GP, therefore the impact the ban had is there as you say (no need for some specific sideboard choices like playing white or green in Phoenix, although Ancient Grudge is still seeing play there) but overall it wasn't that big, people packed answers that were also good in other matchups like Leyline of the Void(otherwise they couldn't be prepared for this diverse metagame) and they are still packing this kind of answers since they work well vs those other decks that are still tier, of course there will be changes in sideboard but as I said before, Spectacle burn and Vannifar are probably going to have a higher impact on how we sideboard than the KCI ban.
About the "other issues of the format" I think cfusionpm probably refers to linearity based on previous comments but that's not easy to fix by tweaking the banlist, it isn't even something we all agree as a problem so that's more of a personal opinion (even though I agree with it). If WotC were to do something in that regard, printing new cards could be the way to go (like Fatal Push) and some unbans could also help in that regard (Punishing Fire).
We considered three possible cards from Ironworks to ban: Ancient Stirrings, Mox Opal, and Krark-Clan Ironworks itself. Given that Modern has looked healthy and diverse at many levels of play outside of Ironworks's dominance at the Grand Prix level, we decided to target the card that only affects the Ironworks deck: Krark-Clan Ironworks.
This is from the last B&R announcement, they literally explain how they banned KCI so it had the lowest impact on the overall metagame because they considered it was healthy on many levels of play.
Also, even if one claims that KCI changed nothing than the KCI itself, this feels totally weird to me. If KCI itself changed(thus banned), then we have an altered Modern ecosystem in our hands. Why is that? UW Control and GDS had a good matchup vs KCI, now there will be less reason to play those decks, which can result in other decks affected and those other decks will influence some other decks as well.
Also, some decks had a terrible matchup vs KCI, decks like Tron or Prison decks, or even some aggro decks. Those decks could make a resurgence. Humans as well.
It also made UR Phoenix decks to stop splashing W and are starting to abandon G also. It could result in people playing less Stony Silence, which can affect Scales and other colourless decks, which can also affect other decks.
The whole metagame ecosystem is like a chain reaction. A certain banning of a deck, can cause big waves to the format.
Although you're right in the points you make, the net effect it has on the general field is mostly unnoticeable. The presence of KCI in the metagame was so little that it actually didn't warp (at the ground level) the rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock minigame. At FNM level, since there's no metagame it won't change nothing, specially since LGS metagames are way more static in general. On GP level, the impact won't be significant on the day 1 to day 2 conversions because the deck wasn't that widely played. I seriously doubt there was more UW and GDS on day2 because ~5% of the decks were KCI. Its effect will only be noticeable on the T32 conversion and T8 rates. This is where the fact that KCI was kinda busted actually impacted.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: WUMiracles ControlUW RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
I am sorry to say that, but after all, it's just two people that don't like the format and bashing it.
Who's bashing it? You simply asked if there are people enjoying it. KCI was not a large part of the meta, you could go weeks without playing it online, and you still need GY/Artifact hate.
Therefore, to me, nothing really changes with what Modern is. Yes there are reactions and updates that flow through the meta with any ban or new card, but top end of the 'winners meta' is not changing here.
Glad you are enjoying the format. I threw Skewer into burn, beat up on a few Tier 2 decks (Merfolk and such) and went back to my Bant Control in Standard.
honestly im of the opinion the KCI ban really only affected KCI players. I cant speak to higher REL events but almost every store i have played at only had myself or one other KCI player and even then most people had SB hate because of the cross deck hate that comes with playing artifact/graveyard based decks. Im still amazed they dont see faithless lotting as an issue considering there was 4 graveyard based decks that used it and had a decent share of meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
I think the fact that they're found in multiple winning decks is a good thing. It means they are enabler cards that allow those deck to exists. Exist in the sense that it allow the deck to perform well and thus be good enough to be competitive. To give an hyperbolic example, lands are in all decks, because they enable decks to play cards.
Graveyard strategies need graveyard enablers. Colorless strategies need colorless enablers. aether vial enables wheenies decks. I don't want enabler cards to get banned.
Give me more cards like that and I'll give you more cool modern decks. Just keep them diverse. It's one of the reasons I seriously harp on Green Sun's Zenith. It'll open an entire new archetype in modern.
I'd love to see a Tithe like card get printed someday (maybe a sorcery speed version) or a fixed Sensei's Divining Top or similar.
Part of the issue in modern is that there's not really enough diversity in these deckbuilding glues - for midrange your only real glue options are cantrips or discard.
FaceToFace Games Open could be a prelude for the incoming Canadian GP.
The thing about a format with 50+ decks with wildly varying matchups is that no event can really predict any other event.
Outside of local game stores and FNMs where players generally own and play the same deck week in, week out, without much change, it is impossible to predict what will happen at any large event like a GP. I'm sure Wizards loves this, but it's also the #1 reason I have not played a large event in more than 2 years and will never play a large event moving forward unless something changes.
That being said, I am absolutely going to try and make GP LA so I can play side events and get my cards signed.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Spirits
Which is, par for the course.
Spirits
First time for me to see the Whir decks. Are these new, or have they been around for a long time already?
And looks like Burn is being active again. I think that's a good thing.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Spirits
This is the kind of ban that SHOULD have taken place with Summer Bloom: Remove a problematic, complex, and ridiculously powerful deck from the format, and leave the rest the hell alone.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Ok thanks. I do remember seeing a "Grindfather" deck somewhere here. But I never thought it was the whir deck.
Hmm, so how does the deck actually win? All I see on the deck lists are lock pieces.. ensnaring bridge and chalice.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Pretty sure the single Ipnu Rivulet + Crucible of Worlds is the main win-con.
I'm sure there are others who enjoy the format, KCI changed nothing however to me.
Spirits
Probably? KCI being banned changes absolutely nothing about the other issues with the format. If you like what we had before, and still like what we have now, then you're in for a treat, because it's not likely to ever change.
I am personally burnt out on the rat race roulette wheel of matchups, but luckily my local meta is full of stubborn people playing black-based interactive decks, instead of most of the degenerate nonsense that fills MTGO. I've long since given up trying to play any kind of meaningful reactive control or tempo deck, and have gone straight to disruptive aggro. I'm just trying to justify continuing to play because I don't want to regret selling thousands of dollars of cards just to see the format make a swift change for the better. But overall, it's not awesome.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Speaking from (mild) experience, UW Control is an absolute beating, UR slightly better, and Jeskai a little better than that. Cryptic + Planeswalker is very good, especially once you drop all your removal for better counters/hate. The prison deck can be tuned to improve the match up, but unsurprisingly what hits control is rarely useful elsewhere.
I believe the only win con MB in the latest version is looping Ipnu Rivulet; post-board it can be something like Ghirapur Aether Grid, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and/or Sai.
I think Modern is a ton of fun right now. The decks are varied and interesting, and nothing is unbeatable. I'm really interested to see how Burn shakes out in a month or two as players start to figure out how to make the best use of Light up the Stage and Skewer the Critics. I've really enjoyed Modern at pretty much every point since the beginning of 2017, it feels like the best the format's ever been.
Because that ban only affected that deck and it's meta share was not very big as the deck was not very popular so the meta hasn't changed that much as a consequence of the ban, in fact, RNA had a much bigger impact on the meta than the KCI ban as Vannifar decks are popping out and Spectacle cards are seeing a lot of play. Of course there is some impact from banning KCI but it is quite small when you compare it to pretty much anything else. It is unlikely that an old deck makes a resurgence as KCI left because no deck was being oppressed by it, it simply was performing better than the rest of the field.
I don't think cfusionpm wasn't extreme in his claim, he just pointed out that the only thing affected by the KCI ban was KCI itself
I see it now. Thanks for pointing it out.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Sorry, I missed idSurge comment and you probably were referring to it.
I actually understand why people can feel like "nothing" changed, and by "nothing" I mean very little (something has changed and for good but I believe it had a very low impact on the format overall).
Modern is diverse as you state and in such a diverse format, you were likely not going to face KCI more than 2-3 rounds in a whole GP, therefore the impact the ban had is there as you say (no need for some specific sideboard choices like playing white or green in Phoenix, although Ancient Grudge is still seeing play there) but overall it wasn't that big, people packed answers that were also good in other matchups like Leyline of the Void(otherwise they couldn't be prepared for this diverse metagame) and they are still packing this kind of answers since they work well vs those other decks that are still tier, of course there will be changes in sideboard but as I said before, Spectacle burn and Vannifar are probably going to have a higher impact on how we sideboard than the KCI ban.
About the "other issues of the format" I think cfusionpm probably refers to linearity based on previous comments but that's not easy to fix by tweaking the banlist, it isn't even something we all agree as a problem so that's more of a personal opinion (even though I agree with it). If WotC were to do something in that regard, printing new cards could be the way to go (like Fatal Push) and some unbans could also help in that regard (Punishing Fire).
This is from the last B&R announcement, they literally explain how they banned KCI so it had the lowest impact on the overall metagame because they considered it was healthy on many levels of play.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
Who's bashing it? You simply asked if there are people enjoying it. KCI was not a large part of the meta, you could go weeks without playing it online, and you still need GY/Artifact hate.
Therefore, to me, nothing really changes with what Modern is. Yes there are reactions and updates that flow through the meta with any ban or new card, but top end of the 'winners meta' is not changing here.
Glad you are enjoying the format. I threw Skewer into burn, beat up on a few Tier 2 decks (Merfolk and such) and went back to my Bant Control in Standard.
Spirits
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
I think the fact that they're found in multiple winning decks is a good thing. It means they are enabler cards that allow those deck to exists. Exist in the sense that it allow the deck to perform well and thus be good enough to be competitive. To give an hyperbolic example, lands are in all decks, because they enable decks to play cards.
Graveyard strategies need graveyard enablers. Colorless strategies need colorless enablers. aether vial enables wheenies decks. I don't want enabler cards to get banned.
Amulet, Tron, even TitanShift? Sure.
Spirits
Give me more cards like that and I'll give you more cool modern decks. Just keep them diverse. It's one of the reasons I seriously harp on Green Sun's Zenith. It'll open an entire new archetype in modern.
I'd love to see a Tithe like card get printed someday (maybe a sorcery speed version) or a fixed Sensei's Divining Top or similar.
Part of the issue in modern is that there's not really enough diversity in these deckbuilding glues - for midrange your only real glue options are cantrips or discard.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The thing about a format with 50+ decks with wildly varying matchups is that no event can really predict any other event.
Outside of local game stores and FNMs where players generally own and play the same deck week in, week out, without much change, it is impossible to predict what will happen at any large event like a GP. I'm sure Wizards loves this, but it's also the #1 reason I have not played a large event in more than 2 years and will never play a large event moving forward unless something changes.
That being said, I am absolutely going to try and make GP LA so I can play side events and get my cards signed.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate