Interesting interpretation of the new Mulligan rule from Patrick Sullivan, which only really makes sense if he believes Modern will never make it to Arena:
The more troubling element of this is that it seems so dubious for older formats that one could only be confident in this path if you didn't really care about that impact. With Arena occupying an ever-growing share of the way Magic gets played, it makes some sense to reorganize around that philosophy. The Mythic Championship will be illuminating. But there is an ever-growing signal from Wizards of the Coast that formats that aren't available on Arena will be a lower and lower priority as time goes on, and this proposed mulligan change is some of the loudest signal sent so far.
I suppose this is one interpretation, but it's a few levels of speculation and conspiracies ahead of the a tangible, concrete counterpoint: they are literally trying the rule at a Modern MC. I would be much more concerned if they hand't even announced a Modern MC yet, or were trying the rule on Arena, in Standard, or in a non-Modern venue. But they chose to try it at a Modern version of their biggest event, and they chose to make that event Modern in the first place. The second MC ever (new terminology, not the old PTs) will be Modern, and the first live pilot of the rule will also be Modern. Those are immediate signs of Modern health and long-term support, and I think that outweighs the speculative stretch it takes to believe Sullivan's interpretation.
I completely agree. Too often the Magic community bases speculation on one or more layers of other speculation. There's something to be said for taking an observation to a logical conclusion, but only if you realize that multiple logical conclusions may exist and you acknowledge them.
Too often the Magic community bases speculation on one or more layers of other speculation. There's something to be said for taking an observation to a logical conclusion, but only if you realize that multiple logical conclusions may exist and you acknowledge them.
Is this really our fault, given the lengths and choices they continually make with regards to concealing information, making purposely-vague statements, and generally giving players no meaningful consistency with which to make predictions for future actions?
Too often the Magic community bases speculation on one or more layers of other speculation. There's something to be said for taking an observation to a logical conclusion, but only if you realize that multiple logical conclusions may exist and you acknowledge them.
Is this really our fault, given the lengths and choices they continually make with regards to concealing information, making purposely-vague statements, and generally giving players no meaningful consistency with which to make predictions for future actions?
When the baseless speculation is so often wrong, yes.
Note that's not aimed at you individually. It's aimed at the community as a whole.
Too often the Magic community bases speculation on one or more layers of other speculation. There's something to be said for taking an observation to a logical conclusion, but only if you realize that multiple logical conclusions may exist and you acknowledge them.
Is this really our fault, given the lengths and choices they continually make with regards to concealing information, making purposely-vague statements, and generally giving players no meaningful consistency with which to make predictions for future actions?
Too often the Magic community bases speculation on one or more layers of other speculation. There's something to be said for taking an observation to a logical conclusion, but only if you realize that multiple logical conclusions may exist and you acknowledge them.
Is this really our fault, given the lengths and choices they continually make with regards to concealing information, making purposely-vague statements, and generally giving players no meaningful consistency with which to make predictions for future actions?
When the baseless speculation is so often wrong, yes.
Note that's not aimed at you individually. It's aimed at the community as a whole.
I agree with RCW, but out of curiosity, can anyone name some relatively recent conspiracy theories/speculation that panned out? I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm simply struggling to think of examples myself.
I mean this is wizards we are talking about, they change their mind every three months at the flick of a hat. Whatever they decide to do modern wise for arena will probably be something completely different 6 months later
WotC often does a 180, but for Modern on Arena they didn't change their stance from the beginning. They again said it isn't coming.
Huh, I guess I may have inadvertently spread conspiracy theories. I agree that it definitely should be read as a net positive for Modern that they are testing the new mulligan-rule in a Modern tournament. Had they not cared ("we'll do what's best for Standard and just ban as necessary to handle any problem that might occur in older formats"), they would have just tested it in Standard or Limited and be done with it.
I just came straight from this thread, so what I focused on was less on the "wizards disklikes modern" part, and more on the "modern is not coming to Arena" part.
Thanks to pizzap for sharing the above. I could think of a few reasons why they would say that even if they are working on longer term plans to port Modern to Arena, but with such a clear statement it seems unlikely that it is something we will se in the near term. And at least, it seems completely unlikely that this Thursdays Modern product is connected to Arena somehow.
I mean presumably you start by doing the important cards in modern first and gradually add the rest.
Even then, you'd need an objective means to deem certain cards in Modern more important than others. The most immediate answer would be decks that placed above a certain position in a major tournament or tournaments, but we also need to keep project length in mind. Taking competitive snapshots of now and a year ago reveals many changes, new decks, and decks that have bounced in and out of tier 1. Standard cards that turn into modern all-stars are a given, but what about the older cards given new life? My point here is that cherry-picking cards ignores flux, which means even an Arena format that has ported in a bunch of modern's most important cards will create a very different format than paper modern.
I mean presumably you start by doing the important cards in modern first and gradually add the rest.
Even then, you'd need an objective means to deem certain cards in Modern more important than others. The most immediate answer would be decks that placed above a certain position in a major tournament or tournaments, but we also need to keep project length in mind. Taking competitive snapshots of now and a year ago reveals many changes, new decks, and decks that have bounced in and out of tier 1. Standard cards that turn into modern all-stars are a given, but what about the older cards given new life? My point here is that cherry-picking cards ignores flux, which means even an Arena format that has ported in a bunch of modern's most important cards will create a very different format than paper modern.
I mean, an idea would be to crowdsource it. Add say, the 20-30 most popular modern decks in terms of cards, and add a feature where a player can add a card legal in the modern format that does not exist. The have a verification process linked with Gatherer to verify the validity of the card, and once this is done, the card is added in the system. If you have already added the coding behind every mechanism, then adding the card can be something done by the players.
They could always load up 8th through whatever set Modern started at, open the gates to play Modern on Arena, then experiment with the ban list until we have sets unbroken all the way to Standard. If they did one set a month, we could have a really cool Modern history tour and get some retrospective and redo time with ban decisions that were made.
I mean presumably you start by doing the important cards in modern first and gradually add the rest.
Even then, you'd need an objective means to deem certain cards in Modern more important than others. The most immediate answer would be decks that placed above a certain position in a major tournament or tournaments, but we also need to keep project length in mind. Taking competitive snapshots of now and a year ago reveals many changes, new decks, and decks that have bounced in and out of tier 1. Standard cards that turn into modern all-stars are a given, but what about the older cards given new life? My point here is that cherry-picking cards ignores flux, which means even an Arena format that has ported in a bunch of modern's most important cards will create a very different format than paper modern.
Well you have to do it some way unless you launch with all Day One. My point is there are thousands upon thousands of cards you got to start somewhere. Unless you just want to do an extra Set every season.
I don't know why anyone has any hope of Modern ever coming to Arena. They have repeatedly said it's not a priority and is not happening any time soon. It is a monumental coding and animating task. There is no good way to make the cards available and distribute them in the current model without massive wastes of resources. It's not happening, and hypothesizing about the ways they could do it is just an exercise in frustrating futility. We might as well go back to talking about Twin coming back if we're going to discuss things that should happen, but never will.
Well you have to do it some way unless you launch with all Day One. My point is there are thousands upon thousands of cards you got to start somewhere. Unless you just want to do an extra Set every season.
Actually, yeah, that's exactly what I had in mind. The evidence we have available suggests that paper modern as we know it is not going to exist within arena in the near future. Arena having a non-rotating format is only a matter of time, and we know that Kaladesh and Amonkhet blocks are in the game despite being unobtainable outside of reprints. Ergo, it would not be surprising for Wizards to start to work backwards in Arena starting from those four sets to support the platform's eternal format. At least, that's my take.
The state of paper modern right now is rather healthy, and it's future right now is not dependent on Arena. There is no pressing need to dump modern's top decklists in a bloated pseudo-masters release or to make Magic's player do the jobs of Arena's coders or to shove half the history of MTG down the throat of a digital game that is barely out of its larval state. It's certainly worth consideration and discussion in the long term, resting on a bunch of assumptions about the role that Arena will have, but a bunch of quick 'n dirty ways to put a massive format on Arena add little of value.
Sorry I meant in extra set in order reverse probably start tracking back from whatever they already have in the game. Presumably at least as far as back Kaladesh.
I don't know why anyone has any hope of Modern ever coming to Arena. They have repeatedly said it's not a priority and is not happening any time soon. It is a monumental coding and animating task. There is no good way to make the cards available and distribute them in the current model without massive wastes of resources. It's not happening, and hypothesizing about the ways they could do it is just an exercise in frustrating futility. We might as well go back to talking about Twin coming back if we're going to discuss things that should happen, but never will.
Baseless speculation?! Happening in this thread? Well, I'd never...
WotC can't even update Gatherer with Pauper legality, so I naturally assumed that adding 16 years worth of cards into Arena was just behind "Reserved List Masters" on WoTC's to-do list. However, part of me is still hopeful that MTGO will someday be natively supported on Mac, so I suppose I'm not completely free of delusional thoughts lol
Referring to the prognostics when Wizards announced they would stop doing master products, in combination to Arena not supporting modern. Supposedly, this showed Wizards wanted modern to die and replace it with something else.
Welp. Confirmed on stream that Modern Horizons is a set to bypass Standard and introduce cards into Modern. I don't know how to feel about this yet.
Cant get worse.
- Set built to Draft. (Of Course)
- Buy a Box Promo (new to Modern, but a Legacy/Vintage reprint)
- Full Size Set (254 Cards)
- Will be on Modern Online (MTGO) - Boosters online $6.99
So we going to new Walkers? That can Rival Jace, the Two Lilis, Teferi, Karn and Ugin. And I guess Chandra and Gideon.
Would be a good chance to print Oldwalkers who aren't relevant for the story in Standard and without needing Core Sets to be Flashbacks.
Maybe Jaya and Windgrace can actually get some good Walker cards.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Is this really our fault, given the lengths and choices they continually make with regards to concealing information, making purposely-vague statements, and generally giving players no meaningful consistency with which to make predictions for future actions?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Note that's not aimed at you individually. It's aimed at the community as a whole.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I agree with RCW, but out of curiosity, can anyone name some relatively recent conspiracy theories/speculation that panned out? I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm simply struggling to think of examples myself.
I just came straight from this thread, so what I focused on was less on the "wizards disklikes modern" part, and more on the "modern is not coming to Arena" part.
Thanks to pizzap for sharing the above. I could think of a few reasons why they would say that even if they are working on longer term plans to port Modern to Arena, but with such a clear statement it seems unlikely that it is something we will se in the near term. And at least, it seems completely unlikely that this Thursdays Modern product is connected to Arena somehow.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Even then, you'd need an objective means to deem certain cards in Modern more important than others. The most immediate answer would be decks that placed above a certain position in a major tournament or tournaments, but we also need to keep project length in mind. Taking competitive snapshots of now and a year ago reveals many changes, new decks, and decks that have bounced in and out of tier 1. Standard cards that turn into modern all-stars are a given, but what about the older cards given new life? My point here is that cherry-picking cards ignores flux, which means even an Arena format that has ported in a bunch of modern's most important cards will create a very different format than paper modern.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
"Reveal a Dragon"
Well you have to do it some way unless you launch with all Day One. My point is there are thousands upon thousands of cards you got to start somewhere. Unless you just want to do an extra Set every season.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Actually, yeah, that's exactly what I had in mind. The evidence we have available suggests that paper modern as we know it is not going to exist within arena in the near future. Arena having a non-rotating format is only a matter of time, and we know that Kaladesh and Amonkhet blocks are in the game despite being unobtainable outside of reprints. Ergo, it would not be surprising for Wizards to start to work backwards in Arena starting from those four sets to support the platform's eternal format. At least, that's my take.
The state of paper modern right now is rather healthy, and it's future right now is not dependent on Arena. There is no pressing need to dump modern's top decklists in a bloated pseudo-masters release or to make Magic's player do the jobs of Arena's coders or to shove half the history of MTG down the throat of a digital game that is barely out of its larval state. It's certainly worth consideration and discussion in the long term, resting on a bunch of assumptions about the role that Arena will have, but a bunch of quick 'n dirty ways to put a massive format on Arena add little of value.
Baseless speculation?! Happening in this thread? Well, I'd never...
WotC can't even update Gatherer with Pauper legality, so I naturally assumed that adding 16 years worth of cards into Arena was just behind "Reserved List Masters" on WoTC's to-do list. However, part of me is still hopeful that MTGO will someday be natively supported on Mac, so I suppose I'm not completely free of delusional thoughts lol
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Referring to the prognostics when Wizards announced they would stop doing master products, in combination to Arena not supporting modern. Supposedly, this showed Wizards wanted modern to die and replace it with something else.
- Legacy/Vintage cards could be reprinted straight to Modern.
- New Cards added straight to Modern.
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Cant get worse.
- Set built to Draft. (Of Course)
- Buy a Box Promo (new to Modern, but a Legacy/Vintage reprint)
- Full Size Set (254 Cards)
- Will be on Modern Online (MTGO) - Boosters online $6.99
Spirits
Would be a good chance to print Oldwalkers who aren't relevant for the story in Standard and without needing Core Sets to be Flashbacks.
Maybe Jaya and Windgrace can actually get some good Walker cards.
Spirits