THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I would agree Modern should pick one. Either we want card selection to be good and thus card selection should be good in the color whose core is card selection or we dont want card selection to be good in such a case then Looting and to a lesser extent Stirrings should get banned cause Green and Red should not have better card selection then Blue if the color pie matters as much as guys like MARO claim. I am fine either way personally.
Blue hasn't had good card selection since the last time ponder got printed in 2012. Card selection cantrips are not something they design in blue anymore. Green has gotten a bunch (Oath of Nissa, Various Commune effects), Red has gotten a bunch (Carthartic, Tormenting, Magmatic Insight). Blue has gotten zero. Calm down there with your color bias.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
i get why people lump lootings together with blue cantrips or the narrow green ones like stirrings. i do it myself sometimes because its easy grouping broadly similar cheap spells.
however i'd like to remind people that lootings and what it does in modern is not remotely close to the various blue cantrips or even stirrings. im not talking about power, but the literal effect. its hand filtering/selection that moves cards between zones after you see more cards AND copies can be used in that zone. as such its a key enabler for an entire class of strategies, of which would be severely crippled or outright die if it was removed. in that context how it stacks up to the banned blue cantrips, or the ones being played is irrelevant.
i said it some time ago but id rate a banning of lootings similar to banning mox opal. im not saying i think it should happen or not, but people shouldnt take the gravity of that decision lightly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I thought I saw the most recent GDS is now running it while they search for the best way to dig for their limited threats? I saw that on Twitter by at least 2 GDS players on the SCG/GP grind.
If I'm wrong, no worries.
GDS plays like 1, or max 2, copies of Faithless Looting mostly because we're not allowed to play more than 4 Thought Scours. It's a worse Thought Scour for the purposes of powering out a turn 2 Angler, but it does have the added bonus of helping mitigate flood in the late game, which can be a serious problem for GDS.
I would agree Modern should pick one. Either we want card selection to be good and thus card selection should be good in the color whose core is card selection or we dont want card selection to be good in such a case then Looting and to a lesser extent Stirrings should get banned cause Green and Red should not have better card selection then Blue if the color pie matters as much as guys like MARO claim. I am fine either way personally.
I agree. I think it comes down to what you want the games to be like in Modern. If you have good card selection the games will often play out in similar ways, so you have less variety of gameplay, but on the other hand, if you don't have good card selection there are more non-games where one player's deck just doesn't function and he doesn't get to play Magic.
I think I prefer having more card selection. I don't think non-games are good Magic from either side of the table, so I'm ok with losing some variety of gameplay if what we're losing is mostly poor games.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
KCI/KCI (as a card and a deck) and looting/phoenix are as different as can be. To think one's banning suggests another is misguided. KCI in an engine card, looting is an enabler. I've said it before: enablers should not get banned. Enablers need to be seriously broken to even be considered.
/Going back to rapidly scanning the thread for any new insight, rarely satisfied.
So, you're saying that Preordain is an enabler? Is it seriously broken?
Any card can or cannot be compared with a card in a vacuum. Faithless Looting can be compared with Careful Study because it draws 2, discards 2, at Sorcery speed. Or it cannot; it is Blue, not Red, and it has a flashback cost of 2R while Study has no flashback. I realize Study is not in Modern, but it's an example of why some people compare cards while others say that they're vastly different and there is NO comparison.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The problem with these cards is more that they keep on designing payoffs for them, rather than the cards themselves. Arclight Phoenix is obviously pushed to be playable beyond just Standard. Yet it seems that the team never learned from the disaster that was Dredge, when they keep on repeating the same mistake of letting players treat the graveyard like an extension of their hand and cast things essentially for free from it. At least 3 top modern decks operate on the same or similar axis, and since good graveyard hate cards are narrow instead of incidental it railroads the game experience into what people keep on referring to as linear. We need incidental graveyard hate, that is tacked onto good main deck cards and then the abuse will diminish.
Yep, I'd say you really nailed it on the head. Faithless Looting has been in Modern for forever, and it was never a problem until now. WotC has been printing a bunch of graveyard payoff cards in recent years to make the graveyard a more active part of the game, but not a lot of answers to those things.
What kind of effects could they staple graveyard hate onto to make it main deckable? Maybe something like a card that's a Shock that also exiles a card or two from a graveyard, or a modal card with graveyard hate along with effects that people often want main?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I was playing Mono Red Phoenix tonight and I lost a match to an opponent who just had Dryad Militant on turn 1 two games in a row. I didn't answer it (probably incorrect of me, in fact) and he turned off my ability to dig with the backsides of my Lootings.
What kind of effects could they staple graveyard hate onto to make it main deckable? Maybe something like a card that's a Shock that also exiles a card or two from a graveyard, or a modal card with graveyard hate along with effects that people often want main?
I maindeck 2 Rakdos Charm in Hollow One (yeah, I know) backed up by Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. The charm is just useful enough against non-graveyard decks that it is ok, but it isn't widely played and it needs 2 colours. Not sure if something similar could be designed to be more efficient but fair.
If Ponder was legal in Modern, would it even benefit the fair blue based decks? I really think thinking about card selection tools based on color just doesn't make sense. How Faithless Looting works in a red deck compared to Preordain in a blue deck, they are just so different. Direct comparison of those 2 types of cards don't work, and we talked about this before a million times.
The "blue doesn't even have the best card selection tool" is completely wrong. Faithless Looting does what Red does, digs for cards on that turn, not caring about card advantage. Compare that to Serum Visions, and if we are talking about card selection in general, then Serum Visions is actually better! The only difference is that Looting does it right here right now, while Serum Visions you have to wait a turn to do it, and you get the benefit of +0 card advantage rather than -1. Serum Visions digs 3, while Looting digs only 2.
So if we throw out the color based argument, now we are left with the same question of if they would even play Ponder/Preordain in the decks you really want them to play in. GDS and Phoenix will undoubtedly benefit the most, alongside Storm. So would the meta even be different?
Lastly no on talks about the fact that Blue control decks have a very solid conversion rate and MWP out dated but the only one i could find for now. Does blue control decks even need help?
The only reason I want Preordain and even Ponder unbanned is because I like powerful cards and think the original reason they are on the banned list is outdated and nonsensical. The real factor is the implications on the current meta and possible powering up of already the top decks of Phoenix and GDS.
As for Stirrings, LSV but it best when he said that there's 4 main decks that play it (Tron, Amulet, Hardened Scales, Prison) and all are vastly different in play patterns, which seems very reasonably and fine.
I think as with so many things, the question of card selection needs to be looked at through the lens of speed. Red is supposed to be the fastest color. Red is about getting you to 0 ASAP. The problem with card selection in red is that it lets you get closer to the optimal hand, optimal in this case being fastest. Unfortunately, they have been printing sturdy things in the decks that play red. I don't care if you cheat on a Goblin Guide, how would you even really do that? But it's not that. They are cheating in some of the bigger creatures played in the format.
Blue selection doesn't really have any outlet to do something super unfair (except with red) and green is doing unfair things, but it is doing them slowly. Remember Summer Bloom? There is nothing special about Prime Time, the problem was the speed. If they'd had decent selection to get the good hands more frequently, it would have been a disaster. I like a good red deck as much as anyone, but colorshifting changing the power of the card is a real thing. It would be fine in green or blue or maybe even black, but Looting and other selection in red are more of a problem specifically because they are red.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
I was playing Mono Red Phoenix tonight and I lost a match to an opponent who just had Dryad Militant on turn 1 two games in a row. I didn't answer it (probably incorrect of me, in fact) and he turned off my ability to dig with the backsides of my Lootings.
people wait more for bannings as they change cards in his own decks. As example death and taxes could use dryad like often in the past... But they don't do it. You need to be faster changing core cards if meta change. Seems waiting and crying others should solve problems is less difficult
The backend of faithless looting is relevant. There are times when that deck needs more velocity and being able to do a second looting with excess mana does push this further. Which is why a page back I suggested if you're wanting careful study reprinted into modern, when there was already a strong looting effect you could ban faithless and have a "nerfed" faithless looting.
The back end of Looting then comes down to deck building and what the deck is trying to do, which doesn't have to do with color. a 3 mana draw two discard two is not a unbalanced card.
@Wraith pK
White aggro creatures that exile from GY when they attack, Blue modal instants that can force reshuffling of GY into the Library maybe on the back of Mana Leak, Black modal instant speed removal that can also draw from opp graveyard as Light Up the Stage does and then play it for one turn, or until end of turn, Burn that punishes large graveyards, dealing incrementally more damage the more cards you have, Blue Threads of Disloyalty type cards that can also hit GY and return to play creatures under your control, a hatebear that taxes if you want to put more than 3 cards into the GY...
Basically cards that, ideally are maindeckable but even of they're only sideboard material still allow you to progress with your primary game plan while packing hate that maybe isn't blowout good but makes your deck better because you haven't crippled it post sideboarding with trash you have to include in order not to lose.
The back end of Looting then comes down to deck building and what the deck is trying to do, which doesn't have to do with color. a 3 mana draw two discard two is not an unbalanced card.
No one is debating that it's weaker casting looting with flashback. However, having flashback is relevant especially on turns where you have nothing else to do. That's the point. It's able to be used multiple times. Of course, deckbuilding comes into no one even stated that it didn't. The point may be that the extra consistency of being able to be used on its own due to naturally having flashback may be making the decks that build around it too consistent.
I do not think we should be banning it, however, there is a difference and careful study would be a nerfed version if they wanted to hit the decks that abuse it without annihilating the decks.
I do not think we should be banning it, however, there is a difference and careful study would be a nerfed version if they wanted to hit the decks that abuse it without annihilating the decks.
On how it would affect my decks.. careful Study would be a much worse version of looting, simply because it is U. Hard to imagine splashing blue to Mardu Pyro, just to be able use a worse looting. MP is a moon deck... the manabase is hard enough to maintain at three colors, adding a 4th color strains it to the point I won't be able to use moons anymore. If looting is banned I would either shelve the deck, or try to go for tormenting voice as a looting replacement.
I do not think we should be banning it, however, there is a difference and careful study would be a nerfed version if they wanted to hit the decks that abuse it without annihilating the decks.
On how it would affect my decks.. careful Study would be a much worse version of looting, simply because it is U. Hard to imagine splashing blue to Mardu Pyro, just to be able use a worse looting. MP is a moon deck... the manabase is hard enough to maintain at three colors, adding a 4th color strains it to the point I won't be able to use moons anymore. If looting is banned I would either shelve the deck, or try to go for tormenting voice as a looting replacement.
So, you're saying that Preordain is an enabler? Is it seriously broken?
You're allowed to misconstrue my argument, put words in my mouth and make any correlation you want, it's par for the course here.
Let me clarify what was so hard to understand. Looting is an enabler for gravevard strategies because it costs 1 mana and puts cards of your choice from your hand in the graveyard. How you can not grasp this, associate looting with preordain all the while constantly showing off your winning prowesses, which, one woudl think, would correlate with ability to valuate card and understand basic talking points about modern.
Yep, that's why people are driven off from these threads.
EDIT:
Just to make my post a wee bit more constructive:
Starting a reply by saying: "Oh you think A? So you probably think B?" Is a passive-agressive entry. You'd be better saying "You think A, but you forgot fact X, with consequence Y, so Z."
Grand-standing about "you can compare any card to any card" leads to nowhere. Yes, it's a free society, you can talk about what you want. Still, KCI and looting are different kind of cards and my point is they're too different to draw a conclusion about looting from KCI banning.
I was just asking, to be honest. I personally feel that Preordain is an enabler. It helps you find pieces that you want to find to win the game or stop your opponents from winning the game. Maybe I'm completely off-base here?
You made it look like an "attack" regarding the cards and said that I missed something. But you also didn't quote what I said after that. Players compare cards differently. Some compare Brainstorm and Ponder in Legacy. Others believe that they're too different to compare. Still, others in the middle believe that they can be compared...to a point. The Modern crowd has so many different beliefs that it's often tough to put them together and find something that a majority will assign to. That's what makes it so hard here.
*To restate, I was just asking for your opinion on Preordain. As everyone here has seen many, many, too many times, I feel like it should be unbanned and I'm trying to figure out others' arguments on why it shouldn't. Of course I have a lot of data for why it shouldn't already. Still, I am of the belief that it should. I honestly can't see someone saying that Preordain should be rebanned in the next few months if it and Stoneforge Mystic were both unbanned. I don't see it. I know others do.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Instead of banning cards, I support some unbans. And also, with Modern Horizons comming, I think any ban should be put on hold, and see the effect of the new cards.
Also MTGS Forums: "Faithless Looting is in ~20% of decks! Card selection is busted!"
This forum continues to be blue/midranged biased useless garbage.
however i'd like to remind people that lootings and what it does in modern is not remotely close to the various blue cantrips or even stirrings. im not talking about power, but the literal effect. its hand filtering/selection that moves cards between zones after you see more cards AND copies can be used in that zone. as such its a key enabler for an entire class of strategies, of which would be severely crippled or outright die if it was removed. in that context how it stacks up to the banned blue cantrips, or the ones being played is irrelevant.
i said it some time ago but id rate a banning of lootings similar to banning mox opal. im not saying i think it should happen or not, but people shouldnt take the gravity of that decision lightly.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I agree. I think it comes down to what you want the games to be like in Modern. If you have good card selection the games will often play out in similar ways, so you have less variety of gameplay, but on the other hand, if you don't have good card selection there are more non-games where one player's deck just doesn't function and he doesn't get to play Magic.
I think I prefer having more card selection. I don't think non-games are good Magic from either side of the table, so I'm ok with losing some variety of gameplay if what we're losing is mostly poor games.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
So, you're saying that Preordain is an enabler? Is it seriously broken?
Any card can or cannot be compared with a card in a vacuum. Faithless Looting can be compared with Careful Study because it draws 2, discards 2, at Sorcery speed. Or it cannot; it is Blue, not Red, and it has a flashback cost of 2R while Study has no flashback. I realize Study is not in Modern, but it's an example of why some people compare cards while others say that they're vastly different and there is NO comparison.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)What kind of effects could they staple graveyard hate onto to make it main deckable? Maybe something like a card that's a Shock that also exiles a card or two from a graveyard, or a modal card with graveyard hate along with effects that people often want main?
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I think it is important for people discussing the topic to watch this video, if anything, just for the calm approach they have to the discussion.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I maindeck 2 Rakdos Charm in Hollow One (yeah, I know) backed up by Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. The charm is just useful enough against non-graveyard decks that it is ok, but it isn't widely played and it needs 2 colours. Not sure if something similar could be designed to be more efficient but fair.
The "blue doesn't even have the best card selection tool" is completely wrong. Faithless Looting does what Red does, digs for cards on that turn, not caring about card advantage. Compare that to Serum Visions, and if we are talking about card selection in general, then Serum Visions is actually better! The only difference is that Looting does it right here right now, while Serum Visions you have to wait a turn to do it, and you get the benefit of +0 card advantage rather than -1. Serum Visions digs 3, while Looting digs only 2.
So if we throw out the color based argument, now we are left with the same question of if they would even play Ponder/Preordain in the decks you really want them to play in. GDS and Phoenix will undoubtedly benefit the most, alongside Storm. So would the meta even be different?
Lastly no on talks about the fact that Blue control decks have a very solid conversion rate and MWP out dated but the only one i could find for now. Does blue control decks even need help?
The only reason I want Preordain and even Ponder unbanned is because I like powerful cards and think the original reason they are on the banned list is outdated and nonsensical. The real factor is the implications on the current meta and possible powering up of already the top decks of Phoenix and GDS.
As for Stirrings, LSV but it best when he said that there's 4 main decks that play it (Tron, Amulet, Hardened Scales, Prison) and all are vastly different in play patterns, which seems very reasonably and fine.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Blue selection doesn't really have any outlet to do something super unfair (except with red) and green is doing unfair things, but it is doing them slowly. Remember Summer Bloom? There is nothing special about Prime Time, the problem was the speed. If they'd had decent selection to get the good hands more frequently, it would have been a disaster. I like a good red deck as much as anyone, but colorshifting changing the power of the card is a real thing. It would be fine in green or blue or maybe even black, but Looting and other selection in red are more of a problem specifically because they are red.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
White aggro creatures that exile from GY when they attack, Blue modal instants that can force reshuffling of GY into the Library maybe on the back of Mana Leak, Black modal instant speed removal that can also draw from opp graveyard as Light Up the Stage does and then play it for one turn, or until end of turn, Burn that punishes large graveyards, dealing incrementally more damage the more cards you have, Blue Threads of Disloyalty type cards that can also hit GY and return to play creatures under your control, a hatebear that taxes if you want to put more than 3 cards into the GY...
Basically cards that, ideally are maindeckable but even of they're only sideboard material still allow you to progress with your primary game plan while packing hate that maybe isn't blowout good but makes your deck better because you haven't crippled it post sideboarding with trash you have to include in order not to lose.
No one is debating that it's weaker casting looting with flashback. However, having flashback is relevant especially on turns where you have nothing else to do. That's the point. It's able to be used multiple times. Of course, deckbuilding comes into no one even stated that it didn't. The point may be that the extra consistency of being able to be used on its own due to naturally having flashback may be making the decks that build around it too consistent.
I do not think we should be banning it, however, there is a difference and careful study would be a nerfed version if they wanted to hit the decks that abuse it without annihilating the decks.
On how it would affect my decks.. careful Study would be a much worse version of looting, simply because it is U. Hard to imagine splashing blue to Mardu Pyro, just to be able use a worse looting. MP is a moon deck... the manabase is hard enough to maintain at three colors, adding a 4th color strains it to the point I won't be able to use moons anymore. If looting is banned I would either shelve the deck, or try to go for tormenting voice as a looting replacement.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
You're allowed to misconstrue my argument, put words in my mouth and make any correlation you want, it's par for the course here.
Let me clarify what was so hard to understand. Looting is an enabler for gravevard strategies because it costs 1 mana and puts cards of your choice from your hand in the graveyard. How you can not grasp this, associate looting with preordain all the while constantly showing off your winning prowesses, which, one woudl think, would correlate with ability to valuate card and understand basic talking points about modern.
Yep, that's why people are driven off from these threads.
EDIT:
Just to make my post a wee bit more constructive:
Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
You made it look like an "attack" regarding the cards and said that I missed something. But you also didn't quote what I said after that. Players compare cards differently. Some compare Brainstorm and Ponder in Legacy. Others believe that they're too different to compare. Still, others in the middle believe that they can be compared...to a point. The Modern crowd has so many different beliefs that it's often tough to put them together and find something that a majority will assign to. That's what makes it so hard here.
*To restate, I was just asking for your opinion on Preordain. As everyone here has seen many, many, too many times, I feel like it should be unbanned and I'm trying to figure out others' arguments on why it shouldn't. Of course I have a lot of data for why it shouldn't already. Still, I am of the belief that it should. I honestly can't see someone saying that Preordain should be rebanned in the next few months if it and Stoneforge Mystic were both unbanned. I don't see it. I know others do.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)With such a massive dumping of Planeswalkers in an upcoming set, I’m curious how things will change! That’s a lot of new powerful bodies coming down.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge