You want splinter twin unbanned, but that's not enough. You also want it's fair backup blue moon plan be a great deck also by it's own
That's not at all what I am saying (or have ever said). It's an either/or. Either it needs a good win condition (Twin or otherwise) OR it needs new tools/answers. A mediocre/bad shell can exist fine if the win condition is strong enough, but history has shown us that shell simply does not exist in any meaningful capacity without that win condition. So if they are never going to give us that win condition, and instead would like to give us a multitude of new tools to promote tempo/control decks, then by all means, I've been waiting 3 years for them to do so.
Side note: It's ironic that all I really want is a good Snap Bolt and the best decks play one or the other, but not both.
Another side note: the card Counterspell does little to nothing to help anything meaningful in Modern. We need free or 1cmc counters to help fight the free/1cmc threats. Never mind all the uncountereable shenanigans through Vial/Cavern/etc.
Deck Diversity doesn't matter to me. Archetype Diversity is what I care about. For Instance, 20 Good Aggro Decks is not a Diverse Meta, if they make up 80% of the Top 8 Placing Decks. Not saying Aggro currently does that is an Example.
I agree counterspell is not strong enough but its step forward. We do need 1 CMC and Conditionally Free Counterspells though. 3 CMC Wipes like Council's Judgment and Toxic Deluge would also be nice.
I think the impact of cavern of souls, and to an extent, aether vial are being blown out of proportion. tye cards are not nearly as prevalent as they seem. Vial seems like a bigger offender to me because it gives decks so much more velocity.
Elves runs four caverns and zero vials. The deck is incredibly weak to sweepers and spot removal on key targets, which is the arclight deck in a nutshell. The deck is land light so multiples are rare, and you can counter lynchpin cards like collected company or chord of calling regardless.
Humans runs four caverns and four vials, but what makes it so backbreaking is being able to seamlessly go from G or W one drop, into B or UW disruptive two drop, into 3 color beater. This is the deck that I see fit the mold the best for arguments that counterspell wouldn't be enough. I think the mana/vial shutting off counters while freebooter and meddling mage clean up removal backed by a clock is what makes the deck so frustrating to play against.
Bant spirits runs ONE cavern and three vials in the main. That's not anywhere near as bad as it could be. mausoleum wanderer and, similar to humans, thalia, guardian of thraben are what keep the deck afloat until it can just hexproof lock out all pinpoint removal.
Merfolk hasn't posted substantial results in forever. Even then they play 1-2 caverns because they need mutavault.
Cavern/vial aren't that big of a blemish on the format imho. It's free stuff or hyper agreesively costed beats that are the issue. Thing in the ice beats up on literally all other creatures in the format and hits for at least 1/3 of your life. Phoenix is just free out of the yard while you craft a hand for the long game. Dredge makes pinpoint removal and racing laughable.
I'm surprised the format hasn't been more hostile to GYs for longer imho.
I think counterspell is fine for the format. I also think Phoenix is fine for what it's worth.
For the record, just because someone talks about Twin doesn't mean they're breaking the rules. Talking about Twin is not flaming, trolling, misbehavior, or spam. I'm going to start dishing out infractions for abusing the reporting system if it keeps up. Please only report posts that actually break our rules, not ones that have content you disagree with. The presence of Twin in a post is not a qualifying factor for violating the rules, and while posts that do break these rules and contain Twin content certainly exist, the vast majority of reports we've gotten haven't been. This is the first and only warning I'm giving to this thread as a whole.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
You want splinter twin unbanned, but that's not enough. You also want it's fair backup blue moon plan be a great deck also by it's own
Another side note: the card Counterspell does little to nothing to help anything meaningful in Modern. We need free or 1cmc counters to help fight the free/1cmc threats. Never mind all the uncountereable shenanigans through Vial/Cavern/etc.
I think something like Pernicious Deed as well as something like Counterspell, or literal Counterspell existing in the format would probably make it better.
Free / 1 cmc general counters seem way to strong though. That just tilts the axis the other way honestly. They might be ok if they force card disadvantage though? (I actually might not mind Force of Will... though that may be a stretch).
Normal counterspell I don't even see having a major effect on the format. Maybe UW goes up to like 5% or something.
Maybe a reprint on common "fair police" creatures in legacy could help? I'd like to see what Containment Priest or Leovold, Emissary of Trest might do for the meta. Both seem fairly innocuous to be honest, just strengthening creature decks' ability to fight phoenix/dredge/company and cantrip/faithless looting/manamorphose chains respectively.
Also personally Sultai is my favorite wedge and BW is my favorite guild, so maybe i'll get new pet decks.
IMO I could deal with seeing REB/BEB without the vindicate half.
I don't expect this to happen, as red getting counterspells seems unlikely under current color pie rules. (I know ricochet trap and gutteral response are modern legal, but to my knowledge, they've moved away from cards like that in the past 5+ years)
IMO I could deal with seeing REB/BEB without the vindicate half.
I don't expect this to happen, as red getting counterspells seems unlikely under current color pie rules. (I know ricochet trap and gutteral response are modern legal, but to my knowledge, they've moved away from cards like that in the past 5+ years)
Red is one of the more tame colors in the format. Besides bolt/blood moon you don't see very many good stuff red cards with wide applications. Yeah gut shot, bedlam reveler and Chandra, torch of defiance are great cards - but they're very narrow. BEB would so little to no play imho.
REB seems too punishing against almost the entirety of UW or jeskai control because W is mostly there for path and sideboard hate specific to certain decks. I wouldn't like jumping through all the hoops to have mana for a timely cryptic that gets blown out for 1 mana out of jund. Even cascading off it from BBE and eating a Jace/teferi is gross and just seems super unfair.
We do have ceremonious rejection which I found a surprising card to print both in std and into modern. It's an incredibly strong safety valve to have around.
A great article on the state of the meta and things you have to deal with if you want to succeed in the field. In particular, I like that Emma takes the Merriam approach that UR Phoenix is an actually fair(ish) midrange(ish) deck and not a combo deck as many people seem to (try and) play against. That being said, I don't think GDS should belong under the disruptive aggro category but rather at the midrange section. Humans is still probably the best creature based aggro deck http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38419_The-Top-Tier-Of-Modern-In-2019.html
you cannot go full fair in eternal/non-rotating formats and win a lot. It doesnt work. Look at legacy, you have miracles, but it has terminus (1 mana wrath), counterbalance, and monastery mentor for a fast kill. You need something "broken" in your deck to succeed. That's why in modern, all the good fair decks in the history of the format had some kind of nut draw. Double fenix on turn 2, twin combo, turn 3 bloodbraid into lili or seize into goyf into lili and so on. I dont see this kind of things as problem, when you take into account that other strategies has 7 mana planeswalkers on turn 3, or 12 power on turn 2, etc. As the card pool gets bigger, you just need more powerful strategies to win
Countering it only hits one of its casts though. It's not a one and done and it interacts very similarly to counterspell at that point. Interaction on the stack. I still think bolt is more prolific than looting, although the latter has closed the gap very well in the last 18 months. I probably should have left off gut shot altogether in my response.
My concern is Red elemental blast/blue elemental blast eating permanents. phoenix and looting can generate additional value from the yard.
Please, let‘s not discuss *that* topic again - the conversation gets destructive very fast and nobody seems to gain anything out of it.
As much as I‘d like to see Sylvan Library in Modern, with Ancient Stirrings being criticised whenever some colourless deck does well I‘d seriously doubt that we‘ll get such a toy in green.
That's because drawing stirrings is almost always a good thing for those decks until they have tron online. Drawing into multiple Sylvan Libraries would be brutal assuming your opponent isn't running enchantment hate; 4 life per card is a hefty price in a format where mana bases are largely composed of fetches and shocks. I honestly think it wouldn't only be underpowered in Modern, but underplayed as well. Aside from brews/decks in green with no other source of CA, what current deck would play it and furthermore, what deck would want to play more than 1 - 2 copies max?
I haven't read the comments from Maro, but I'd like to do so if anybody has the link handy. I could certainly see the brand new cards adhering to color pie norms, but knowing a chunk of the set will be ported over from legacy's card pool, I'd be surprised if "conforms to color pie" was a major deciding factor for whether or not those cards were chosen/excluded. WotC announcing MH would include reprints pre-8th ed was the first step toward the sort of "legacy-lite" format folks have described in the past; the extent to which that is true will seemingly depend on how many of these reprints are noteworthy cards in legacy. Aside from gameplay factors, the inclusion of cards like a Sylvan Library would go a long way to ensure MH has perceived value from the get-go. They can re-print all the Counterspells, Daze, etc they'd like for Modern, but dirt-cheap reprints won't sell pack and neither will unproven/untested cards (at least during the early stages when players are still figuring out whats actually relevant). Don't get me wrong, I'd be delighted if MH boxes are the same price as a standard set box, but that's unlikely to be the case. Making sure X amount of the reprints are legacy staples with modest-solid value is a sensical business decision that would help to ensure MH sales figures meet expectations; there has to be something among the set of uncertainty that would justify the premium/semi-premium price point of boosters/boxes.
A great article on the state of the meta and things you have to deal with if you want to succeed in the field. In particular, I like that Emma takes the Merriam approach that UR Phoenix is an actually fair(ish) midrange(ish) deck and not a combo deck as many people seem to (try and) play against. That being said, I don't think GDS should belong under the disruptive aggro category but rather at the midrange section. Humans is still probably the best creature based aggro deck http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38419_The-Top-Tier-Of-Modern-In-2019.html
that was a good read. thanks for sharing the link.
Yeah with a mana base that hurts you and plenty of fast aggro decks trying to murder you I don't know if that much damage to your life is workable. Maybe in Ad Nas or something.
There's a lot of things we can argue that this guys said, but its probably been done beofre. I'm just going to look at his closing statement:
As to my personal views, I’m unsure of whether the card was too good for Modern, but I definitely think that the banning was poorly executed and poorly explained. As such I think WOTC ought to unban the card, and then if necessary do a proper banning, with hard numbers and clear arguments, as they did with KCI.
There's many cards you can say the same thing about. Actually, I would even argue that the vast majority of cards up until the last few (in which wotc has been very good about) Didn't quite receive a proper banning.
I don't think that it was any more busted than any of the other top decks, but I'd also say it doesn't add anything good to modern. Instead I feel it adds more of what we have with Dredge already i.e. the kind of gameplay that leads to a less fun, more zero-sum format. Its just less obvious and somewhat less oppressive when the win con are creatures and not a combo.
It comes down to the fact that there are no ways of reliably stopping strong pro-active plays other than stronger, faster, more degenerate and resilient proactive plays. So the deck with the lowest paid 'price' for its degeneracy (i.e. the axis along which it's vulnerable), combined with the least amount of aggro drawn from the field (either because its that good, or because everyone feels its that good), should, in that environment, do better than others.
The decks will keep on changing at the top but the type of deck that is persistently good has not changed substantially over time. Also the type of deck that is not good or at least not as close to universally good i.e. control, fair creature decks, proper midrange - reactive or decks that cast on curve for incremental advantage - will stay less than optimal. Maybe Horizons shakes that up.
I hope it does. But its worth it to note that the kind of power level needed to effectively and reliably block off a wide range of the degenerate field is also off the charts (on the edge of degeneracy itself) - Countertop, Brainstorm, Daze, Force of Will. Still, from where I'm sitting, Legacy looks like a more balanced format overall. Not by the huge margin some claim, but slightly so.
Please, let‘s not discuss *that* topic again - the conversation gets destructive very fast and nobody seems to gain anything out of it.
As much as I‘d like to see Sylvan Library in Modern, with Ancient Stirrings being criticised whenever some colourless deck does well I‘d seriously doubt that we‘ll get such a toy in green.
That's because drawing stirrings is almost always a good thing for those decks until they have tron online. Drawing into multiple Sylvan Libraries would be brutal assuming your opponent isn't running enchantment hate; 4 life per card is a hefty price in a format where mana bases are largely composed of fetches and shocks. I honestly think it wouldn't only be underpowered in Modern, but underplayed as well. Aside from brews/decks in green with no other source of CA, what current deck would play it and furthermore, what deck would want to play more than 1 - 2 copies max?
I haven't read the comments from Maro, but I'd like to do so if anybody has the link handy. I could certainly see the brand new cards adhering to color pie norms, but knowing a chunk of the set will be ported over from legacy's card pool, I'd be surprised if "conforms to color pie" was a major deciding factor for whether or not those cards were chosen/excluded. WotC announcing MH would include reprints pre-8th ed was the first step toward the sort of "legacy-lite" format folks have described in the past; the extent to which that is true will seemingly depend on how many of these reprints are noteworthy cards in legacy. Aside from gameplay factors, the inclusion of cards like a Sylvan Library would go a long way to ensure MH has perceived value from the get-go. They can re-print all the Counterspells, Daze, etc they'd like for Modern, but dirt-cheap reprints won't sell pack and neither will unproven/untested cards (at least during the early stages when players are still figuring out whats actually relevant). Don't get me wrong, I'd be delighted if MH boxes are the same price as a standard set box, but that's unlikely to be the case. Making sure X amount of the reprints are legacy staples with modest-solid value is a sensical business decision that would help to ensure MH sales figures meet expectations; there has to be something among the set of uncertainty that would justify the premium/semi-premium price point of boosters/boxes.
Stirrings is not only a good thing „until“ you have tron online but also after. It lets you dig deep into your library when you‘ve assembled tron but are in desperate need of a threat, which quite occasionally happens to me.
I do agree with your points on why Library could get included, but I‘m rather sceptical about WotC wanting that. Let‘s not forget that Library is not just about card advantage: Coupled with fetchlands, this could give green a strong card selection tool.
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Modern: Death&Taxes / U Tron / G Tron / Goblins
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
I don't agree. As it is a midrange deck that can semi-combo off some times(that's the nature of Modern, you have to have a comboesque element if you want to be Tier 1), I legitimately think it adds a lot of good, interesting gameplays into Modern. And no, it's not like Dredge. Dredge can not play the midrange game as it's main plan(think Thing in the ice, pteramander, crackling drake, snappies if you run some), neither is like Storm.
About MH, I hope it does change some stuff. If counterspell is in the mix, it will add something useful for sure. Maybe Diabolic Edict would be great also.
A deck with 20 cantrips and only 2 4CMC cards (that it intends to actually cast for the cost), while the rest is 1-2 CMC is midrange?
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That's not at all what I am saying (or have ever said). It's an either/or. Either it needs a good win condition (Twin or otherwise) OR it needs new tools/answers. A mediocre/bad shell can exist fine if the win condition is strong enough, but history has shown us that shell simply does not exist in any meaningful capacity without that win condition. So if they are never going to give us that win condition, and instead would like to give us a multitude of new tools to promote tempo/control decks, then by all means, I've been waiting 3 years for them to do so.
Side note: It's ironic that all I really want is a good Snap Bolt and the best decks play one or the other, but not both.
Another side note: the card Counterspell does little to nothing to help anything meaningful in Modern. We need free or 1cmc counters to help fight the free/1cmc threats. Never mind all the uncountereable shenanigans through Vial/Cavern/etc.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I agree counterspell is not strong enough but its step forward. We do need 1 CMC and Conditionally Free Counterspells though. 3 CMC Wipes like Council's Judgment and Toxic Deluge would also be nice.
Elves runs four caverns and zero vials. The deck is incredibly weak to sweepers and spot removal on key targets, which is the arclight deck in a nutshell. The deck is land light so multiples are rare, and you can counter lynchpin cards like collected company or chord of calling regardless.
Humans runs four caverns and four vials, but what makes it so backbreaking is being able to seamlessly go from G or W one drop, into B or UW disruptive two drop, into 3 color beater. This is the deck that I see fit the mold the best for arguments that counterspell wouldn't be enough. I think the mana/vial shutting off counters while freebooter and meddling mage clean up removal backed by a clock is what makes the deck so frustrating to play against.
Bant spirits runs ONE cavern and three vials in the main. That's not anywhere near as bad as it could be. mausoleum wanderer and, similar to humans, thalia, guardian of thraben are what keep the deck afloat until it can just hexproof lock out all pinpoint removal.
Merfolk hasn't posted substantial results in forever. Even then they play 1-2 caverns because they need mutavault.
Cavern/vial aren't that big of a blemish on the format imho. It's free stuff or hyper agreesively costed beats that are the issue. Thing in the ice beats up on literally all other creatures in the format and hits for at least 1/3 of your life. Phoenix is just free out of the yard while you craft a hand for the long game. Dredge makes pinpoint removal and racing laughable.
I'm surprised the format hasn't been more hostile to GYs for longer imho.
I think counterspell is fine for the format. I also think Phoenix is fine for what it's worth.
I think something like Pernicious Deed as well as something like Counterspell, or literal Counterspell existing in the format would probably make it better.
Also whats your guys' thoughts on cards like Red Elemental Blast or Blue Elemental Blast being in Modern?
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Normal counterspell I don't even see having a major effect on the format. Maybe UW goes up to like 5% or something.
Maybe a reprint on common "fair police" creatures in legacy could help? I'd like to see what Containment Priest or Leovold, Emissary of Trest might do for the meta. Both seem fairly innocuous to be honest, just strengthening creature decks' ability to fight phoenix/dredge/company and cantrip/faithless looting/manamorphose chains respectively.
Also personally Sultai is my favorite wedge and BW is my favorite guild, so maybe i'll get new pet decks.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I don't expect this to happen, as red getting counterspells seems unlikely under current color pie rules. (I know ricochet trap and gutteral response are modern legal, but to my knowledge, they've moved away from cards like that in the past 5+ years)
Red is one of the more tame colors in the format. Besides bolt/blood moon you don't see very many good stuff red cards with wide applications. Yeah gut shot, bedlam reveler and Chandra, torch of defiance are great cards - but they're very narrow. BEB would so little to no play imho.
REB seems too punishing against almost the entirety of UW or jeskai control because W is mostly there for path and sideboard hate specific to certain decks. I wouldn't like jumping through all the hoops to have mana for a timely cryptic that gets blown out for 1 mana out of jund. Even cascading off it from BBE and eating a Jace/teferi is gross and just seems super unfair.
We do have ceremonious rejection which I found a surprising card to print both in std and into modern. It's an incredibly strong safety valve to have around.
So who knows.
Are you familiar with the card Faithless Looting?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Countering it only hits one of its casts though. It's not a one and done and it interacts very similarly to counterspell at that point. Interaction on the stack. I still think bolt is more prolific than looting, although the latter has closed the gap very well in the last 18 months. I probably should have left off gut shot altogether in my response.
My concern is Red elemental blast/blue elemental blast eating permanents. phoenix and looting can generate additional value from the yard.
That's because drawing stirrings is almost always a good thing for those decks until they have tron online. Drawing into multiple Sylvan Libraries would be brutal assuming your opponent isn't running enchantment hate; 4 life per card is a hefty price in a format where mana bases are largely composed of fetches and shocks. I honestly think it wouldn't only be underpowered in Modern, but underplayed as well. Aside from brews/decks in green with no other source of CA, what current deck would play it and furthermore, what deck would want to play more than 1 - 2 copies max?
I haven't read the comments from Maro, but I'd like to do so if anybody has the link handy. I could certainly see the brand new cards adhering to color pie norms, but knowing a chunk of the set will be ported over from legacy's card pool, I'd be surprised if "conforms to color pie" was a major deciding factor for whether or not those cards were chosen/excluded. WotC announcing MH would include reprints pre-8th ed was the first step toward the sort of "legacy-lite" format folks have described in the past; the extent to which that is true will seemingly depend on how many of these reprints are noteworthy cards in legacy. Aside from gameplay factors, the inclusion of cards like a Sylvan Library would go a long way to ensure MH has perceived value from the get-go. They can re-print all the Counterspells, Daze, etc they'd like for Modern, but dirt-cheap reprints won't sell pack and neither will unproven/untested cards (at least during the early stages when players are still figuring out whats actually relevant). Don't get me wrong, I'd be delighted if MH boxes are the same price as a standard set box, but that's unlikely to be the case. Making sure X amount of the reprints are legacy staples with modest-solid value is a sensical business decision that would help to ensure MH sales figures meet expectations; there has to be something among the set of uncertainty that would justify the premium/semi-premium price point of boosters/boxes.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
that was a good read. thanks for sharing the link.
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General
About Sylvan Library
Modern:
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
There's a lot of things we can argue that this guys said, but its probably been done beofre. I'm just going to look at his closing statement:
There's many cards you can say the same thing about. Actually, I would even argue that the vast majority of cards up until the last few (in which wotc has been very good about) Didn't quite receive a proper banning.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
It comes down to the fact that there are no ways of reliably stopping strong pro-active plays other than stronger, faster, more degenerate and resilient proactive plays. So the deck with the lowest paid 'price' for its degeneracy (i.e. the axis along which it's vulnerable), combined with the least amount of aggro drawn from the field (either because its that good, or because everyone feels its that good), should, in that environment, do better than others.
The decks will keep on changing at the top but the type of deck that is persistently good has not changed substantially over time. Also the type of deck that is not good or at least not as close to universally good i.e. control, fair creature decks, proper midrange - reactive or decks that cast on curve for incremental advantage - will stay less than optimal. Maybe Horizons shakes that up.
I hope it does. But its worth it to note that the kind of power level needed to effectively and reliably block off a wide range of the degenerate field is also off the charts (on the edge of degeneracy itself) - Countertop, Brainstorm, Daze, Force of Will. Still, from where I'm sitting, Legacy looks like a more balanced format overall. Not by the huge margin some claim, but slightly so.
Stirrings is not only a good thing „until“ you have tron online but also after. It lets you dig deep into your library when you‘ve assembled tron but are in desperate need of a threat, which quite occasionally happens to me.
I do agree with your points on why Library could get included, but I‘m rather sceptical about WotC wanting that. Let‘s not forget that Library is not just about card advantage: Coupled with fetchlands, this could give green a strong card selection tool.
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
A deck with 20 cantrips and only 2 4CMC cards (that it intends to actually cast for the cost), while the rest is 1-2 CMC is midrange?