Well, tron has chalice of the void on 1 or defense grid if it wants to in its SB. Which can even be fetched by small karn. One has only so many ceremonious rejections.
Not that I'm on the ban bandwagon. Tron is fine IMO, but it is very good at fighting back.
Tron doesn't run world breaker anymore, that's one of the cuts for new Karn. Only cast trigger to worry about is 1-2 ulamog.
The problem becomes bigger though, if you think you (as a blue mage) must counter so many more threats nowadays(like chalice, grid that were mentioned little bit earlier, karns, etc), or disrupt so many more things.
This is my point though, you only have to counter or deal with ~10 threats at the max, sometimes far less. Ulamog cast trigger is great when you're hitting combo lynchpins and screwing over mana bases sure...sometimes it's 10 mana for two removal spells which ain't that good.
Control and aggro can handle karn GC very handily, he's not hitting the board before t3 and if they hit tron there are way scarier things to do with that mana that take precedent.
I do that no the deck is weak on the stack. 1 sanctum, ulamog against non combo/mana hungry decks, and chalice aren't that big of a deal. Control can still cryptic to bounce a relevant chalice+draw while holding rejection up at about the same time in the game as the tron player is playing karn GC, fetching a chalice, and casting it for x=1.
Plus as mentioned earlier there are a bevy of decks that specifically prey on tron itself. It's not like tron is ramping actually lands in play like scapeshift, it's not doing anything scary until t3/4/5 and often times it's got to stirrings before/during that period to keep threats coming.
Also, UW can have a bad matchup. Holy crap can you imagine if control was in a position to counter or remove every single threat consistently? I was just saying that one of the listed threats was usurped by a new one.
So Flusterstorm?? is the 'powerful blue card' urgh not only is storm not even a blip on the modern radar but this takes up a potential new and useful counter spot. Wizards hate the storm mechanic so much but we get it, jeez.
So Tron is now the top deck in the meta, just got Karn the Great Creator, gets even more powerful with the London Mulligan which will be implemented soon, and makes for miserable game play.
Can we finally start talking about how the Urzatron lands may be too strong in a format without wasteland?
Modern Horizons can change this, true. But, as weve seen, even all the recent tron hate printed lately has done very little
Meta will adapt to be more aggressive towards Tron. Lots of tron hate cards out there, just swap some in instead of banning stuff when it's popular. There's always an ebb and flow and Modern Horizons will make almost definitely make a big change to that.
I agree, I'm not sure tron is really all that oppressive right now. It's consistent and strong with the new mulligan rule sure, but it's beatable. cermonious rejection is a great safety valve that can and will show up in Uxx control, grixis shadow, tempo decks, etc to combat it and eat up that meta share.
It only asks 4 sideboard slots and maybe some number of snapcaster mage and you're highly favored against them as you just answer the 10-11 threats they have total.
I'd imagine this is the route we go if tron starts to migrate towards a very high % of the meta.
In fact if you can squeeze in an appropriate amount of rejections and grave/spell hate for Phoenix you're going to be covering nearly 1/5th of your matches in some of the modern events we've seen. Grave hate also spills over to dredge.
Phoenix can run rejection if it needs it and it has the velocity to hit it by t3 if it needs to even on the draw.
I just can't see tron eating up too much meta if it's really that dominate. It loses horribly on the stack.
Is it the same stack that runs Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger, world breaker and sanctum of ugin activations? Or the same stack that now gets to play 10 more sb cards and you have to counter literally as threats as it had, only many more?
That said, I believe Tron is stronger than it was. One buff in Blast Zone is nice in a Tier 1 deck, one more in London mulligan helping the deck is too much. All of the above + Karn and a myriad other cards to help the deck are too much. It is something that should never have happened. I don't think it's bannable, but hell, why help a Tier 1 deck (the best one) with so many things???
As someone who has faced a tron deck with Ceaseless Hunger before. This guy is one of the worst thing a Tron player can do. Very hard to get rid of unless I'm using my UW deck with plenty of exile removal. And even if removed, ulamog craters my board with his citp ability. Glad that only a few people use this large eldrazi in my area.
Printing of the new karn that tutors things has forced me to finally cave in and buy a few copies of assassin's trophy. :<
The best anti-tron plan of all my decks is still to dodge the matchup.
It's still a one-mana counterspell in a format with limited cases of such. Flusterstorm also helps blue tempo-type decks to win counterspell wars. Just saying, it's not just an anti-storm card.
*****spoilers******
I like both the new spoiled cards. The flusterstorm is a great new counterspell for modern and the new astral slide could create an entirely new combo deck. I am even more excited now.
As far as I can tell, flusterstorm does almost nothing in modern at the moment. It's worse than Spell Pierce in almost every situation except against storm, which already sucks right now.
Astral Drive seems interesting but I'm honestly not super blown away. Bouncing creatures for end of turn value doesn't seem like a winning plan in the current modern unless Mangara of Corondor or something is way more broken then I imagine.
I actually despise new Karn. I don't even care if it's broken, it just violates almost every principle of card design:
1. One sided "you can't play the game" isn't fun. Even Chalice of the Void or Ensnaring Bridge are more fun than this because they impose deckbuilding constraints. Making cards that counter themselves is not fun. Colorless decks will run more Karns, not less, the more popular Karn colorless becomes. It's like if hydroblast hit blue spells, it's just boring design.
2. Why does it get things from exile. This doesn't make sense and is wholly unecessary for a toolbox card. It probably won't be relevant, but it irritates me to no end. Wizards has repeatedly said they don't want exile to become graveyard 2.0. Why.
3. Look man, tron is already really good, and also one of the most unpopular decks in the format. This is like when they printed creeping chill. I don't understand what R&D was thinking when they designed this card. "Oh my god everyone is complaining about how good Hardened Scales is and how they really miss and love tron/prison"?
I understand I'm personally biased in that regard, but whenever you print a big hoser that's also an alternate wincon, you have to consider the people already invested in the game. Sure, when I was still on twin, if they printed a torpor orb/ win-con then fair enough. But this seems like anti-KCI tech for a meta where KCI is banned.
People really need to drop the collective delusion that Tron is UW Controls worst nightmare. From personal experience and from PT/GP data the MU is very close to 50/50, even slightly favorable for UW.
Tron is good right now, because it has a good Humans, phoenix and dredge MU. And it also is very good against decks like BGx, Mardu etc.
People are way overestimating how good Great Creator is in Tron. There is a very real cost in including him and his accompanying wishboard in terms of the cuts you have to make, and it ultimately doesn't improve the deck's matchups against the field - in fact I think it actually makes them slightly worse. There's a reason the deck hasn't changed in over 2 years - because it already has everything it needs against the field. The Great Creator package isn't providing anything more powerful on balance - it's just a different angle of attack. Most people are running it now because it's the new hotness but I think as the hype dies down a lot of people will end up back on the traditional build. I'm firmly there already. So no, Great Creator is not pushing Tron over the top.
It's still a one-mana counterspell in a format with limited cases of such. Flusterstorm also helps blue tempo-type decks to win counterspell wars. Just saying, it's not just an anti-storm card.
Most of the time, it's a Spell Pierce that doesn't hit artifacts, walkers, or enchantments. And when you're fighting counter wars, is it any better than Dispel? Because that's the SB slot it's really fighting for.
The more I think about it, the more I am disappointed by the card. Not just because of how medium and mostly irrelevant it is to Modern, but because the people at WOTC who helped designed this set think this is a powerful and relevant card to Modern.
I’m pretty sure if the BAB was some awesome highly relevant card to modern we would all bemoan the idea of having to figure out how to afford it. And if this was the only printing it would only be available in foil.
Flusterstorm not being highly relevant to Modern makes it a great BAB, in my opinion. I hope this was chosen exactly for this reason and I hope that it shows how the community groaned over Nexus of Fate being a BAB.
I’m pretty sure if the BAB was some awesome highly relevant card to modern we would all bemoan the idea of having to figure out how to afford it. And if this was the only printing it would only be available in foil.
Glad that it's Flusterstorm. Saved money. Can just ignore the card, since I don't play legacy anymore.
I like flusterstorm as the BAB because there are other printings of it, I already have some. Arkmer has it about right in his post above.
I also see flusterstorm as a great safety valve against decks that play multiple spells a turn, neobrand is a good example right now but there are and will be others. if this card doesn't make a big splash right now then I see that as a good thing.
I like flusterstorm as the BAB because there are other printings of it, I already have some. Arkmer has it about right in his post above.
I also see flusterstorm as a great safety valve against decks that play multiple spells a turn, neobrand is a good example right now but there are and will be others. if this card doesn't make a big splash right now then I see that as a good thing.
The decks flusterstorm is good against I think pierce, dispel, and swan song are just as good with better relevance elsewhere?
The only scenario I can see it being better is convoluted stack wars where people are trying to jam redundant combo pieces or against some control situations. I think for control vs control dovin's veto is typically a stronger response.
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Drift is a pretty forgettable card for me with the current landscape of modern. Phoenix is threatening a win before this hits the field in a lot of cases. Maybe it gets lots of support, who knows.
So Tron is now the top deck in the meta, just got Karn the Great Creator, gets even more powerful with the London Mulligan which will be implemented soon, and makes for miserable game play.
Can we finally start talking about how the Urzatron lands may be too strong in a format without wasteland?
Modern Horizons can change this, true. But, as weve seen, even all the recent tron hate printed lately has done very little
If you want to blow up lands, play Ghost Quarter. If they printed Wasteland right now, I would still play GQ. Free activation and in a pinch it gets you a basic. Tron is my jam, has been through good times and bad almost as long as Modern has been a format, and GQ with or against the deck is a house. I have had opponents use it for the basic before dropping Moon many times. It may not be as strictly powerful, but it murders Tron if you actually DECIDE to beat the deck (it is 100% a choice) and it is more versatile, which in Modern has proven again and again and again to be king.
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Can't believe we haven't had any modern tournaments since the new Karn arrived. I'm really curious to see how well it does and how the meta will have to adjust.
Choking Tethers (reprint) Elvish Fury (reprint - buyback is back!) Goblin War Party (2R, Sorcery, Choose -Create three 1/1 goblins OR -Creatures get +1/+1 and haste, Entwine 2R) Headless Specter (1BB, 2/2 flyer, Hypnotic Specter once Hellbent) Imposter of the Sixth Pride (1W 3/1 changeling) Lava Dart (sweet reprint - flashback is back!) Martyr's Soul (2W, 3/2 spirit, convoke, when enters if you control no tapped lands put two +1/+1 counters) PROHIBIT (REPRINT THANK GOD) Savage Swipe (BEAR TRIBAL - G, sorcery, target creature gets +2/+2 if power 2. Creature fights target creature) Stream of Thought (U, sorcery, target player mills 4, you shuffle up to 4 cards, replicate 2UU) Venemous Changeling (2B 1/3 deathtouch changeling) Wall of a Thousand Cuts (3WW 3/5 defender, flying, W: attack as if no defender)
Lava Dart and Prohibit are definitely Modern playable. I do think that Prohibit likely precludes Counterspell, unless there are some Limited considerations to putting Counterspell at another rarity. That's probably a bit disappointing but I'm pumped for the cards. Excited for more cards today!
Can't believe we haven't had any modern tournaments since the new Karn arrived. I'm really curious to see how well it does and how the meta will have to adjust.
I think its only now picking up steam, so it probably doesnt matter. When is the next big event?
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Not that I'm on the ban bandwagon. Tron is fine IMO, but it is very good at fighting back.
This is my point though, you only have to counter or deal with ~10 threats at the max, sometimes far less. Ulamog cast trigger is great when you're hitting combo lynchpins and screwing over mana bases sure...sometimes it's 10 mana for two removal spells which ain't that good.
Control and aggro can handle karn GC very handily, he's not hitting the board before t3 and if they hit tron there are way scarier things to do with that mana that take precedent.
I do that no the deck is weak on the stack. 1 sanctum, ulamog against non combo/mana hungry decks, and chalice aren't that big of a deal. Control can still cryptic to bounce a relevant chalice+draw while holding rejection up at about the same time in the game as the tron player is playing karn GC, fetching a chalice, and casting it for x=1.
Plus as mentioned earlier there are a bevy of decks that specifically prey on tron itself. It's not like tron is ramping actually lands in play like scapeshift, it's not doing anything scary until t3/4/5 and often times it's got to stirrings before/during that period to keep threats coming.
Considering the amount of reactive blue decks I've played in the past four years or so, no, I can't imagine that.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
As someone who has faced a tron deck with Ceaseless Hunger before. This guy is one of the worst thing a Tron player can do. Very hard to get rid of unless I'm using my UW deck with plenty of exile removal. And even if removed, ulamog craters my board with his citp ability. Glad that only a few people use this large eldrazi in my area.
Printing of the new karn that tutors things has forced me to finally cave in and buy a few copies of assassin's trophy. :<
The best anti-tron plan of all my decks is still to dodge the matchup.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I like both the new spoiled cards. The flusterstorm is a great new counterspell for modern and the new astral slide could create an entirely new combo deck. I am even more excited now.
Astral Drive seems interesting but I'm honestly not super blown away. Bouncing creatures for end of turn value doesn't seem like a winning plan in the current modern unless Mangara of Corondor or something is way more broken then I imagine.
I actually despise new Karn. I don't even care if it's broken, it just violates almost every principle of card design:
1. One sided "you can't play the game" isn't fun. Even Chalice of the Void or Ensnaring Bridge are more fun than this because they impose deckbuilding constraints. Making cards that counter themselves is not fun. Colorless decks will run more Karns, not less, the more popular Karn colorless becomes. It's like if hydroblast hit blue spells, it's just boring design.
2. Why does it get things from exile. This doesn't make sense and is wholly unecessary for a toolbox card. It probably won't be relevant, but it irritates me to no end. Wizards has repeatedly said they don't want exile to become graveyard 2.0. Why.
3. Look man, tron is already really good, and also one of the most unpopular decks in the format. This is like when they printed creeping chill. I don't understand what R&D was thinking when they designed this card. "Oh my god everyone is complaining about how good Hardened Scales is and how they really miss and love tron/prison"?
I understand I'm personally biased in that regard, but whenever you print a big hoser that's also an alternate wincon, you have to consider the people already invested in the game. Sure, when I was still on twin, if they printed a torpor orb/ win-con then fair enough. But this seems like anti-KCI tech for a meta where KCI is banned.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
Tron is good right now, because it has a good Humans, phoenix and dredge MU. And it also is very good against decks like BGx, Mardu etc.
The more I think about it, the more I am disappointed by the card. Not just because of how medium and mostly irrelevant it is to Modern, but because the people at WOTC who helped designed this set think this is a powerful and relevant card to Modern.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Flusterstorm not being highly relevant to Modern makes it a great BAB, in my opinion. I hope this was chosen exactly for this reason and I hope that it shows how the community groaned over Nexus of Fate being a BAB.
... Still just hope though.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Glad that it's Flusterstorm. Saved money. Can just ignore the card, since I don't play legacy anymore.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I also see flusterstorm as a great safety valve against decks that play multiple spells a turn, neobrand is a good example right now but there are and will be others. if this card doesn't make a big splash right now then I see that as a good thing.
The decks flusterstorm is good against I think pierce, dispel, and swan song are just as good with better relevance elsewhere?
The only scenario I can see it being better is convoluted stack wars where people are trying to jam redundant combo pieces or against some control situations. I think for control vs control dovin's veto is typically a stronger response.
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Drift is a pretty forgettable card for me with the current landscape of modern. Phoenix is threatening a win before this hits the field in a lot of cases. Maybe it gets lots of support, who knows.
If you want to blow up lands, play Ghost Quarter. If they printed Wasteland right now, I would still play GQ. Free activation and in a pinch it gets you a basic. Tron is my jam, has been through good times and bad almost as long as Modern has been a format, and GQ with or against the deck is a house. I have had opponents use it for the basic before dropping Moon many times. It may not be as strictly powerful, but it murders Tron if you actually DECIDE to beat the deck (it is 100% a choice) and it is more versatile, which in Modern has proven again and again and again to be king.
**SPOILERS**
Choking Tethers (reprint)
Elvish Fury (reprint - buyback is back!)
Goblin War Party (2R, Sorcery, Choose -Create three 1/1 goblins OR -Creatures get +1/+1 and haste, Entwine 2R)
Headless Specter (1BB, 2/2 flyer, Hypnotic Specter once Hellbent)
Imposter of the Sixth Pride (1W 3/1 changeling)
Lava Dart (sweet reprint - flashback is back!)
Martyr's Soul (2W, 3/2 spirit, convoke, when enters if you control no tapped lands put two +1/+1 counters)
PROHIBIT (REPRINT THANK GOD)
Savage Swipe (BEAR TRIBAL - G, sorcery, target creature gets +2/+2 if power 2. Creature fights target creature)
Stream of Thought (U, sorcery, target player mills 4, you shuffle up to 4 cards, replicate 2UU)
Venemous Changeling (2B 1/3 deathtouch changeling)
Wall of a Thousand Cuts (3WW 3/5 defender, flying, W: attack as if no defender)
Lava Dart and Prohibit are definitely Modern playable. I do think that Prohibit likely precludes Counterspell, unless there are some Limited considerations to putting Counterspell at another rarity. That's probably a bit disappointing but I'm pumped for the cards. Excited for more cards today!
EDIT: Images posted by another Reddit user - https://imgur.com/a/7QWHclB
I think its only now picking up steam, so it probably doesnt matter. When is the next big event?
Spirits
Spirits