the point is that those decks 'feeling suboptimal' isnt because of the existence of ur phoenix. those decks felt suboptimal before, and given no other changes, would feel suboptimal afterwards. if you were/are some urx delver player who feels obligated to play a top tier archetype like phoenix because its top tier, then why werent you playing any of the top tier archetypes to begin with. if winning mattered to you that much you arguably should have been playing humans, spirits, hollow one, tron, dredge, gds, or whatever else poised itself at the top of a meta cycle.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
So you banned Phoenix. Dredge is still stupid. Ban Dredge? Stirrings decks are still stupid, ban a few of those? How many decks do we lose just so people can start pretending there isnt a winners meta, and 'diversity in Modern is real'?
the point is that those decks 'feeling suboptimal' isnt because of the existence of ur phoenix. those decks felt suboptimal before, and given no other changes, would feel suboptimal afterwards. if you were/are some urx delver player who feels obligated to play a top tier archetype like phoenix because its top tier, then why werent you playing any of the top tier archetypes to begin with. if winning mattered to you that much you arguably should have been playing humans, spirits, hollow one, tron, dredge, gds, or whatever else poised itself at the top of a meta cycle.
This is so painfully true I almost dont even want to get into it. If you played a UR deck that was not Storm, inside the last year, you ALREADY played a suboptimal 'I'm diverse Modern!' but not really good deck. Phoenix didnt change that. Phoenix just showed what a good UR deck actually looks like.
This is so painfully true I almost dont even want to get into it. If you played a UR deck that was not Storm, inside the last year, you ALREADY played a suboptimal 'I'm diverse Modern!' but not really good deck. Phoenix didnt change that. Phoenix just showed what a good UR deck actually looks like.
By current measures, Phoenix appears to be much more than merely a "good UR deck." Its shares are currently in the Pod/TC/DRS range, I.e. a range of legitimately broken decks, not simply good ones. Modern has not seen these shares between Eldrazi Winter and today, so there is clearly some anomaly in the deck's performance. That said, I do believe the share is (someehat) artificially inflated by the echo chamber of pro and online opinion, which drives a certain type of competitive player to pick up this certain kind of proactive/reactive, consistent, rewarding, and resilient deck. Add in a healthy Standard and the engaging Arena platform, and it's little wonder that many of the better players at big events just audible to a reliable deck like Phoenix.
BUT, artificial inflation factors aside, the Day 1 to Day 2 to Top 32 jump at the previous GP is an unambiguous indicator of a real performance edge, not just a "good" UR deck.
right, its not in doubt that ur phoenix has abnormally high performance stats. rather just about whether those stats currently, or given a similar trend going forward, justify a ban. after that point there are various arguments about what card should be targeted and why.
i just dont think targeting phoenix (the card), or any card in the abstract, because existing tier 2, underperforming, suboptimal, or whatever you wanna call such decks. phoenix is no more suppressing delver or blue moon than humans is slivers and allies tribal. especially when you consider that ur phoenix only marginally qualifies as a tempo deck, which is historically what the color combo does.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Right, not good, Great UR Deck. Or more accurately a Tier 1 UR deck. Any UR deck otherwise, that isn't Storm is not competitive there are literally zero results at the high end (GP even SCG) showing otherwise.
This is the reason, this fear, why I played only tier 3 decks. Never want to hear it is my own fault... But even then I am now frightened because of this banmania. I play colorless eldrazi, red prison.. nothing in the meta... But new mulligan rule maybe coming and people are soooo fast calling to ban everything so i loose my love for modern slowly because of this Hysterie. Maybe it is not your deck at the moment and you cry for bannings... But soon it is yours and other cry to ban it. Is this the way? Making people frightened to invest in decks? This helps the healthy of modern?
This is so painfully true I almost dont even want to get into it. If you played a UR deck that was not Storm, inside the last year, you ALREADY played a suboptimal 'I'm diverse Modern!' but not really good deck. Phoenix didnt change that. Phoenix just showed what a good UR deck actually looks like.
By current measures, Phoenix appears to be much more than merely a "good UR deck." Its shares are currently in the Pod/TC/DRS range, I.e. a range of legitimately broken decks, not simply good ones. Modern has not seen these shares between Eldrazi Winter and today, so there is clearly some anomaly in the deck's performance. That said, I do believe the share is (someehat) artificially inflated by the echo chamber of pro and online opinion, which drives a certain type of competitive player to pick up this certain kind of proactive/reactive, consistent, rewarding, and resilient deck. Add in a healthy Standard and the engaging Arena platform, and it's little wonder that many of the better players at big events just audible to a reliable deck like Phoenix.
BUT, artificial inflation factors aside, the Day 1 to Day 2 to Top 32 jump at the previous GP is an unambiguous indicator of a real performance edge, not just a "good" UR deck.
You're most likely right and it's also very hard for anyone to argue that. That being said, it is way too early to jump to any serious actions. Birthing Pod (when it was nearly unbeatable) was allowed to exist for at least 3 months, the same as Treasure Cruise. I think Eldrazi winter laster at least 3 months also if I'm not mistaken.
I don't feel that Phoenix is at those numbers consistently week after week yet. If the Mythic Championship has say, over 40% Phoenix, that will be something. But with Modern Horizons coming in, I think any premature ban would prove to the Modern public that Wizards is not going to print any strong cards in THAT set and would really hurt the excitement that has been built with this upcoming set. No matter how bad it gets, there is a time and place for a ban. I personally think it's not that bad. When I played Dredge currently, I've dodged UR Phoenix for 24 rounds so far. I have played a Mono Red Phoenix though, lol.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I really don't want Faithless Looting to be banned. The card is very fair - its the creatures that come out of the graveyard for free that break it.
They need to stop printing things like Arclight Phoenix, Prized Amalgam, ect. My fear though is that they won't stop printing creatures like these and they will be forced to ban the card.
That is true and there is fear there. But Wizards could also try to start pushing "fair decks" in Modern and Modern Horizons is an amazingly easy way to start, even if they don't want to unban a single ******* card. If Horizons doesn't push fair strategies at least a little bit, that is really an opportunity lost.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
That is true and there is fear there. But Wizards could also try to start pushing "fair decks" in Modern and Modern Horizons is an amazingly easy way to start, even if they don't want to unban a single ******* card. If Horizons doesn't push fair strategies at least a little bit, that is really an opportunity lost.
I'm personally going to ramp back my expectations at this point. I've found myself thinking 'well Horizon's will just fix all this' and if its underwhelming, I will at this point simply tilt off the face of the earth.
Either it is fixed, or its not, just the way it is, but ban's are not the answer for Modern.
That is true and there is fear there. But Wizards could also try to start pushing "fair decks" in Modern and Modern Horizons is an amazingly easy way to start, even if they don't want to unban a single ******* card. If Horizons doesn't push fair strategies at least a little bit, that is really an opportunity lost.
I'm personally going to ramp back my expectations at this point. I've found myself thinking 'well Horizon's will just fix all this' and if its underwhelming, I will at this point simply tilt off the face of the earth.
Either it is fixed, or its not, just the way it is, but bans are not the answer for Modern.
It just depends on the route that Wizards wants to take.
We have seen them take the ban route before. They have banned cards that probably did not really need it because there were other options at the time. There were long term options, but banning was the easiest short term option. Then we have seen them go the unban route in unbanning Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision, Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Maybe they feel these unbans have not been successful? I feel they are successful because the cards haven't come close to needing a re-ban. Maybe they see the banning route as more successful because it has seriously killed or neutered decks? It just really depends on the mood of Wizards right now. Hopefully it's not that time of the month...
*I think one thing to consider is that Modern Horizons is going to be a LOT less impactful than most people think. Why? If Containment Priest, Leovold, and Baleful Strix are all printed, someone is going to complain, "Modern is now Legacy lite" as if that's a bad thing, lol. Wizards has to be really careful. I personally think it's not "Legacy Lite" unless Force of Will, Brainstorm, original dual lands, Daze, and Wasteland are in and those are 100% not going to be in. Legacy is random cards like Hymn to Tourach, Red Elemental Blast, Sinkhole, Berserk, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Moat, Nether Void, the Abyss, Drop of Honey. Brainstorm and Ponder, in addition to Preordain a bit. Jitte. Modern will never, I mean n-e-v-e-r be Legacy Lite.
**Sorry, I just realized that you mean for Modern's health that bans are not the answer. I'm completely there with you. Hopefully Wizards is too, but we'll see. Going to play Sneak Show tomorrow at a Legacy Staples tournament.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Yes it did. The KCI ban was aimed solely at taking out KCI and the braindead gameplay it promoted. This is exactly why Wizards banned it and they weren't ambiguous about it at all. Why keep bringing it up? Suspension issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
This is why I hope modern horizons actually gives us good cards. I am still unsure why we are not allowed swords to plowshares, counterspell, containment priest and baleful strix.
I also think we may have over estimated the reprints in this set.
Based on watching the announcement video and how the Wotc employees reacted when counterspell was mentioned was very interesting. During mentions of wasteland and TNN they just nodded and smiled.
When counterspell was brought up, the Wotc employee immediately was like, "we're not promising this is in the set." and went on an explanation.
Now that could be for a multitude of reasons. Some would say this is to not leak additional cards and keep expectations low. However it could be the opposite.
It could be that counterspell isn't there and other legacy reprints are things like oubliette.
This means that the set has a high chance of being a dud IF they
they decide not to push it too much.
So if all the podcasts are right and Surgical isn't a good answer for Phoenix, and you're not worried about your Dredge matchup, do you just go zero grave hate and play a Rending Volley or two in your board?
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
So if all the podcasts are right and Surgical isn't a good answer for Phoenix, and you're not worried about your Dredge matchup, do you just go zero grave hate and play a Rending Volley or two in your board?
So if all the podcasts are right and Surgical isn't a good answer for Phoenix, and you're not worried about your Dredge matchup, do you just go zero grave hate and play a Rending Volley or two in your board?
Surgical is a superb answer to Phoenix the card. It just doesn't single-handedly take down Phoenix the deck, because none of their other threats care about it. Think bringing in Explosives or Rest in Peace against Grixis Shadow. But assuming you can race/ignore/answer Thing, Crackling, and Pteramander, Surgical is hands-down the best answer to Arclight Phoenix.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
So if all the podcasts are right and Surgical isn't a good answer for Phoenix, and you're not worried about your Dredge matchup, do you just go zero grave hate and play a Rending Volley or two in your board?
Surgical in general is an over boarded card. However if you are running a deck that cares about Phoenix in the long term (ie not trying to full on race the phoenix deck) then Surgical is an excellent answer. The issue that comes up is if you are playing a deck that is trying to combo out faster than Phoenix then the 2 life and a card you spend on Extraction to save 3-6 life generally isn't worth it.
The best ways to adapt to the Phoenix meta is to play things like:
Tron
Prison
GDS
Amulet (Verdict isn't 100% settling on who is favored)
Titan Shift
Ad Naus
And decks that largely ignore what Phoenix is trying to accomplish. I know I know, TRON! Yet, if the way to beat Phoenix is Tron/Big mana that allows other decks to come in and beat up those arch types. Players are figuring it out. My Own record against Phoenix is very good (SCG events, Both Classic and Regionals), I found my spaghetti monsters enjoy their match up
I do understand the frustration towards the current state of modern but we are seeing a reaction this weekend. It takes some time for players to figure the right ways to beat the many flavors of Phoenix. There wasn't a full consensus on how to SB against UR in our Tron thread until a few weeks ago. From there there's a lot of testing that goes in to making sure we aren't just kidding ourselves. With MH horizons on it's way, we need to be positive about the shake ups that set will initiate. If all that fails then another hammer will fall.
Yes it did. The KCI ban was aimed solely at taking out KCI and the braindead gameplay it promoted. This is exactly why Wizards banned it and they weren't ambiguous about it at all. Why keep bringing it up?
I've never seen KCI called braindead...do you just not like combo?
They did ban it for the gameplay, one of the first ban's of its type I believe. I bring it up because people (not many here, you dont see much deep thought here about consequences or impact of bans) on Twitter actually thought it may shift things in the meta, but it didnt, if anything we are in an even more linear meta because you dont have KCI hanging over our heads.
I bring it up, because decks that FORCE you to interact or lose, are good for a format.
I bring it up, because decks that FORCE you to interact or lose, are good for a format.
Like Infect?
Actually, yes. If only there was a deck like Infect that forced interaction, but wasn't constantly breaking the Turn 4 rule. Unfortunately for infect, without those Turn 2 and Turn 3 wins, the deck is too susceptible to interaction and has mostly been made irrelevant with the banning of Probe and the printing of Fatal Push.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)So you banned Phoenix. Dredge is still stupid. Ban Dredge? Stirrings decks are still stupid, ban a few of those? How many decks do we lose just so people can start pretending there isnt a winners meta, and 'diversity in Modern is real'?
This is so painfully true I almost dont even want to get into it. If you played a UR deck that was not Storm, inside the last year, you ALREADY played a suboptimal 'I'm diverse Modern!' but not really good deck. Phoenix didnt change that. Phoenix just showed what a good UR deck actually looks like.
Spirits
By current measures, Phoenix appears to be much more than merely a "good UR deck." Its shares are currently in the Pod/TC/DRS range, I.e. a range of legitimately broken decks, not simply good ones. Modern has not seen these shares between Eldrazi Winter and today, so there is clearly some anomaly in the deck's performance. That said, I do believe the share is (someehat) artificially inflated by the echo chamber of pro and online opinion, which drives a certain type of competitive player to pick up this certain kind of proactive/reactive, consistent, rewarding, and resilient deck. Add in a healthy Standard and the engaging Arena platform, and it's little wonder that many of the better players at big events just audible to a reliable deck like Phoenix.
BUT, artificial inflation factors aside, the Day 1 to Day 2 to Top 32 jump at the previous GP is an unambiguous indicator of a real performance edge, not just a "good" UR deck.
i just dont think targeting phoenix (the card), or any card in the abstract, because existing tier 2, underperforming, suboptimal, or whatever you wanna call such decks. phoenix is no more suppressing delver or blue moon than humans is slivers and allies tribal. especially when you consider that ur phoenix only marginally qualifies as a tempo deck, which is historically what the color combo does.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)That is not Phoenix's fault.
Spirits
You're most likely right and it's also very hard for anyone to argue that. That being said, it is way too early to jump to any serious actions. Birthing Pod (when it was nearly unbeatable) was allowed to exist for at least 3 months, the same as Treasure Cruise. I think Eldrazi winter laster at least 3 months also if I'm not mistaken.
I don't feel that Phoenix is at those numbers consistently week after week yet. If the Mythic Championship has say, over 40% Phoenix, that will be something. But with Modern Horizons coming in, I think any premature ban would prove to the Modern public that Wizards is not going to print any strong cards in THAT set and would really hurt the excitement that has been built with this upcoming set. No matter how bad it gets, there is a time and place for a ban. I personally think it's not that bad. When I played Dredge currently, I've dodged UR Phoenix for 24 rounds so far. I have played a Mono Red Phoenix though, lol.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)They need to stop printing things like Arclight Phoenix, Prized Amalgam, ect. My fear though is that they won't stop printing creatures like these and they will be forced to ban the card.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'm personally going to ramp back my expectations at this point. I've found myself thinking 'well Horizon's will just fix all this' and if its underwhelming, I will at this point simply tilt off the face of the earth.
Either it is fixed, or its not, just the way it is, but ban's are not the answer for Modern.
Spirits
It just depends on the route that Wizards wants to take.
We have seen them take the ban route before. They have banned cards that probably did not really need it because there were other options at the time. There were long term options, but banning was the easiest short term option. Then we have seen them go the unban route in unbanning Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision, Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Maybe they feel these unbans have not been successful? I feel they are successful because the cards haven't come close to needing a re-ban. Maybe they see the banning route as more successful because it has seriously killed or neutered decks? It just really depends on the mood of Wizards right now. Hopefully it's not that time of the month...
*I think one thing to consider is that Modern Horizons is going to be a LOT less impactful than most people think. Why? If Containment Priest, Leovold, and Baleful Strix are all printed, someone is going to complain, "Modern is now Legacy lite" as if that's a bad thing, lol. Wizards has to be really careful. I personally think it's not "Legacy Lite" unless Force of Will, Brainstorm, original dual lands, Daze, and Wasteland are in and those are 100% not going to be in. Legacy is random cards like Hymn to Tourach, Red Elemental Blast, Sinkhole, Berserk, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Moat, Nether Void, the Abyss, Drop of Honey. Brainstorm and Ponder, in addition to Preordain a bit. Jitte. Modern will never, I mean n-e-v-e-r be Legacy Lite.
**Sorry, I just realized that you mean for Modern's health that bans are not the answer. I'm completely there with you. Hopefully Wizards is too, but we'll see. Going to play Sneak Show tomorrow at a Legacy Staples tournament.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Yes it did. The KCI ban was aimed solely at taking out KCI and the braindead gameplay it promoted. This is exactly why Wizards banned it and they weren't ambiguous about it at all. Why keep bringing it up?
Suspension issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I also think we may have over estimated the reprints in this set.
Based on watching the announcement video and how the Wotc employees reacted when counterspell was mentioned was very interesting. During mentions of wasteland and TNN they just nodded and smiled.
When counterspell was brought up, the Wotc employee immediately was like, "we're not promising this is in the set." and went on an explanation.
Now that could be for a multitude of reasons. Some would say this is to not leak additional cards and keep expectations low. However it could be the opposite.
It could be that counterspell isn't there and other legacy reprints are things like oubliette.
This means that the set has a high chance of being a dud IF they
they decide not to push it too much.
It just slows the format down.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
So you can't hit Phoenix at all?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Surgical in general is an over boarded card. However if you are running a deck that cares about Phoenix in the long term (ie not trying to full on race the phoenix deck) then Surgical is an excellent answer. The issue that comes up is if you are playing a deck that is trying to combo out faster than Phoenix then the 2 life and a card you spend on Extraction to save 3-6 life generally isn't worth it.
Tron
Prison
GDS
Amulet (Verdict isn't 100% settling on who is favored)
Titan Shift
Ad Naus
And decks that largely ignore what Phoenix is trying to accomplish. I know I know, TRON! Yet, if the way to beat Phoenix is Tron/Big mana that allows other decks to come in and beat up those arch types. Players are figuring it out. My Own record against Phoenix is very good (SCG events, Both Classic and Regionals), I found my spaghetti monsters enjoy their match up
I do understand the frustration towards the current state of modern but we are seeing a reaction this weekend. It takes some time for players to figure the right ways to beat the many flavors of Phoenix. There wasn't a full consensus on how to SB against UR in our Tron thread until a few weeks ago. From there there's a lot of testing that goes in to making sure we aren't just kidding ourselves. With MH horizons on it's way, we need to be positive about the shake ups that set will initiate. If all that fails then another hammer will fall.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I've never seen KCI called braindead...do you just not like combo?
They did ban it for the gameplay, one of the first ban's of its type I believe. I bring it up because people (not many here, you dont see much deep thought here about consequences or impact of bans) on Twitter actually thought it may shift things in the meta, but it didnt, if anything we are in an even more linear meta because you dont have KCI hanging over our heads.
I bring it up, because decks that FORCE you to interact or lose, are good for a format.
Spirits
Like Infect?
Actually, yes. If only there was a deck like Infect that forced interaction, but wasn't constantly breaking the Turn 4 rule. Unfortunately for infect, without those Turn 2 and Turn 3 wins, the deck is too susceptible to interaction and has mostly been made irrelevant with the banning of Probe and the printing of Fatal Push.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate