Eh..I've seen other decks do it (Modern to Legacy ports) and be competitive. Humans during its peak was one that made me pause. I'm still not fussed. Until we see it push for top 8/16 levels that at the LEAST match UR Phoenix, its pretty hard to make an argument for banning.
As to some of the banter in here, just use the ignore folks. Its there for a reason, and the forum improves dramatically once you do so.
The screenshot of that Turn 2 board state say's a lot about what can be done in the format. If people choose to not interact that is.
My world is the real one. Just look at Reid Duke's today's stream. Full of interesting, interactive decisions.
Just watched the stream of his first league today. The ending of the final game of round 5 was insane, great example of where skill+luck can win you games that you should otherwise lose.
Kind of poetic for old mtgs to go down right before such a controversial ban update. My last post on the matter will kind of repeat what I've said for a long time now: Modern as an FNM format is incredibly diverse. You can sleeve up almost anything and do well at any small tournament and have fun.
However, if you are solely focussing on results, if you do not plan on ending the game on turn 3, you are fooling yourself. Modern thrives on people clinging to strategies that are outdated. If Modern was started carte blanche today, two thirds of the decks people play would never exist. Even so, those decks pick up big wins because magic is a cardgame. But if you sit down and try to beat Modern as a format, the chance that you come up with "taking turns" as the solution is zero. And when I go to a big event and get Hogaak'd or Phoenix'd or Tron'd I can only think "yeah, you are completely right".
I still play Modern every week and have fun, but I also say every week: Ban Faithless Looting
The game has evolved, we can accept it or ban everything to oblivion, back to battle cruiser standard levels.
I miss the days when the meta would stew for months , not just days before everyone start talking about bans.
Magic is not just the gathering of sideboards... sometimes sideboards are all it takes. At other times the upheaval is enough that
Decks must change to address the new meta.
Sideboards are a privilege to allow 60 cards to stay relatively the same.
It does not mean decks do not die and become obsolete.
That has been true since the dawn of magic as a game.
I'm glad I finally switched to Modern recently and I'm especially glad that my local game store's meta is pretty good, not too hardcore and lots of fun. Many different styles of decks and homebrew. It's awesome having access to so many cards and play against so many different styles of decks after coming from playing standard the last two years.
I'm really enjoying it, but the most hardcore level I get to is FNM hehe.
I'm glad I finally switched to Modern recently and I'm especially glad that my local game store's meta is pretty good, not too hardcore and lots of fun. Many different styles of decks and homebrew. It's awesome having access to so many cards and play against so many different styles of decks after coming from playing standard the last two years.
I'm really enjoying it, but the most hardcore level I get to is FNM hehe.
Modern is at its absolute best these days when people refuse to play the top decks. I used to enjoy an LGS like that and would give anything to have it back.
The game has evolved, we can accept it or ban everything to oblivion, back to battle cruiser standard levels.
I miss the days when the meta would stew for months , not just days before everyone start talking about bans.
Magic is not just the gathering of sideboards... sometimes sideboards are all it takes. At other times the upheaval is enough that
Decks must change to address the new meta.
Sideboards are a privilege to allow 60 cards to stay relatively the same.
It does not mean decks do not die and become obsolete.
That has been true since the dawn of magic as a game.
That is all.
And why are some so afraid of bans that make the format better? Too many games are ending before turn4, and that makes it boring for most people.
It can't be for pure monetary reasons, come on. If you are playing faitless looting.dek, specially hogaak.dek, it's really your fault you didn't sell the expensive pieces before the bans.
As we near the end here my thoughts return to several months back.
There are 2 paths for Modern, and they depend upon on not what you want to play, but on what you want to play against.
You can PLAY near whatever, and if you warp to the meta you'll be fine. I don't believe anyone can argue against that.
The problem is, what are you playing against, and are the games fun for you? Well that's an individual opinion.
So what are the 2 paths?
1. Accept Modern as what it is, warp your deck around it, and accept infrequent bans/unbans if something gets nuts.
This is how Wizards has approached the format for some time, roughly 3.5 years.
2. Push for a rebuild of the ban list. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BAN MANIA. No, what this path is, is an acceptance that Modern is flawed, but that to fix it, would take multiple bans to bring the power back down and free up some actual diversity in the format.
Would it improve Modern? If you are an 'option 2 please' person, yes, and that's it.
Either you accept Modern for what it is, and you embrace the decks you play against, or you push not for a few bans, but whole sale changes to the format.
As for me? It's not realistic to hope for option 2. So I accept what I cannot change, and continue to just churn through the days until I take a good long break, by playing Warcraft Classic.
Modern is what it is, good, bad, or just Modern. Your cards don't disappear if you put them in storage. They don't lose $ value if they are in a box.
Don't like Modern as it is? It will not change from this path, it's too far gone.
Either a lot of bans are coming, or you accept Modern for what it is, or you take a break.
That's it.
EDIT: Typo's and Card Tags as I posted this from my phone.
I'd ban cavern of souls to make counterspells playable again: mana leak, logic knot, and to a certain extent, remand (cos remand is also bad cos of the low cmc meta, not just cavern), spell snare, etc. Right now, when you think about putting counterspells into your deck, you're like, meh, if they are dead to 10% of the format, what good are these?
As we near the end here my thoughts return to several months back.
There are 2 paths for Modern, and they depend upon on not what you want to play, but on what you want to play against.
You can PLAY near whatever, and if you warp to the meta you'll be fine. I don't believe anyone can argue against that.
The problem is, what are you playing against, and are the games fun for you? Well that's an individual opinion.
So what are the 2 paths?
1. Accept Modern as what it is, warp your deck around it, and accept infrequent bans/unbans if something gets nuts.
This is how Wizards has approached the format for some time, roughly 3.5 years.
2. Push for a rebuild of the ban list. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BAN MANIA. No, what this path is, is an acceptance that Modern is flawed, but that to fix it, would take multiple bans to bring the power back down and free up some actual diversity in the format.
Would it improve Modern? If you are an 'option 2 please' person, yes, and that's it.
Either you accept Modern for what it is, and you embrace the decks you play against, or you push not for a few bans, but whole sale changes to the format.
As for me? It's not realistic to hope for option 2. So I accept what I cannot change, and continue to just churn through the days until I take a good long break, by playing Warcraft Classic.
Modern is what it is, good, bad, or just Modern. Your cards don't disappear if you put them in storage. They don't lose $ value if they are in a box.
Don't like Modern as it is? It will not change from this path, it's too far gone.
Either a lot of bans are coming, or you accept Modern for what it is, or you take a break.
That's it.
EDIT: Typo's and Card Tags as I posted this from my phone.
I disagree, it would not fix Modern by any metric. you ban 11-13 cards at once, or even in a short span, the format dies. this is not doomsaying, this is 'Wizards took a chainsaw to the format, why should I keep playing if their shakeup strategy is apparently now MASS bannings or the cards that make the format what it is?'
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
1. Accept this is current form of Modern, understanding that you can play what YOU want, but...you play against Modern.
OR
2. Start pushing for a whole swath of ban's that will actually 'fix' (if you perceive current Modern as a problem) the format.
When/If they ban Looting/Bridge, it wont really change the format. Just like banning KCI did nothing worth really worrying about for the VAST majority of the people playing the format. Something else obnoxious will come up, and then what? Ban Stirrings? Opal? Urza?
I am under no illusions they will ever follow path 2. Just as I'm under no illusions that Modern is as diverse as people like to fool themselves into thinking, or that its 'healthy' from a subjective point of view.
The tide is turning on Looting though, and Wizard's have told us that 'perception' from the community is a consideration now.
Just dont blame them when your new overlords dont let you cast spells.
As we near the end here my thoughts return to several months back.
There are 2 paths for Modern, and they depend upon on not what you want to play, but on what you want to play against.
You can PLAY near whatever, and if you warp to the meta you'll be fine. I don't believe anyone can argue against that.
The problem is, what are you playing against, and are the games fun for you? Well that's an individual opinion.
So what are the 2 paths?
1. Accept Modern as what it is, warp your deck around it, and accept infrequent bans/unbans if something gets nuts.
This is how Wizards has approached the format for some time, roughly 3.5 years.
2. Push for a rebuild of the ban list. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BAN MANIA. No, what this path is, is an acceptance that Modern is flawed, but that to fix it, would take multiple bans to bring the power back down and free up some actual diversity in the format.
Would it improve Modern? If you are an 'option 2 please' person, yes, and that's it.
Either you accept Modern for what it is, and you embrace the decks you play against, or you push not for a few bans, but whole sale changes to the format.
As for me? It's not realistic to hope for option 2. So I accept what I cannot change, and continue to just churn through the days until I take a good long break, by playing Warcraft Classic.
Modern is what it is, good, bad, or just Modern. Your cards don't disappear if you put them in storage. They don't lose $ value if they are in a box.
Don't like Modern as it is? It will not change from this path, it's too far gone.
Either a lot of bans are coming, or you accept Modern for what it is, or you take a break.
That's it.
EDIT: Typo's and Card Tags as I posted this from my phone.
Why also ban Narset? I still plan to add her alternate art to my deck.
I cannot for the life of me figure out how anyone could think Karn, GC should take Splinter Twin's spot on the banlist, other than that person played Twin when it was legal and has lost to Lattice lockout. How is a 4 mana tutor for a 6 mana lockout piece more egregious than a combo that ends the game on T4 and forces you to play responses? I think Twin would not end the world if it were unbanned, but I do not think GC is near Twin's level of deserving it's original ban.
I cannot for the life of me figure out how anyone could think Karn, GC should take Splinter Twin's spot on the banlist, other than that person played Twin when it was legal and has lost to Lattice lockout. How is a 4 mana tutor for a 6 mana lockout piece more egregious than a combo that ends the game on T4 and forces you to play responses? I think Twin would not end the world if it were unbanned, but I do not think GC is near Twin's level of deserving it's original ban.
Have not lost to it myself because I dont stick to decks that dont interact on the stack for more than a few games. I think its ability to tutor is more of an issue than anything else, and F Tron.
As I mentioned, Path 2 is a subjective one. Ultimately, Path 1 is what we will have. Modern is what Modern is. If you like it great. If you dont, move on, because it wont change other than to increasingly be less fair over time.
Is a Turn 4 Karn into a Turn 6 Lattice an issue? Not at all.
Is a Turn 4 Karn AND Lattice an issue? Probably not, its preferable to Ceaseless Hunger because you can at least hope to interact with either part, but in the end? Its a card Tron can use, and...I dont care for Tron having multiple options.
1. Accept Modern as what it is, warp your deck around it, and accept infrequent bans/unbans if something gets nuts.
In what world is this not the only option? Nobody here has any decision making authority over WotC or the format. We choose to play or not.
Because we actually do have an ability to influence things. KCI would not have been banned if not for player outcry. It did not have an overwhelming presence in the meta, did not win more Top 8's than Phoenix.
If this thread united behind something, and snowballed into SCG articles, Twitter, and Reddit, something would be done.
1. Accept Modern as what it is, warp your deck around it, and accept infrequent bans/unbans if something gets nuts.
In what world is this not the only option? Nobody here has any decision making authority over WotC or the format. We choose to play or not.
Because we actually do have an ability to influence things. KCI would not have been banned if not for player outcry. It did not have an overwhelming presence in the meta, did not win more Top 8's than Phoenix.
If this thread united behind something, and snowballed into SCG articles, Twitter, and Reddit, something would be done.
Good point. That said, Bridge from Below is probably the only card on your list I'd want to see banned. I'm fine with all the others. So I guess that puts me in category #1.
I quit playing during spoiler season for MH and it appears that all we got from this amazing format saving set was a brand new most broken deck in the format! Wow awesome job guys! I just played my first league in 2 months and even though I went 3/2 I think I'll just go right back to quitting again. This format just keeps getting worse.
I see people proposing an option 1 or option 2, but I think there is a compromise solution here. I would like to see restrictions,not outright bans.
So I like option 2 above, but instead of banning make these cards as a max 2-of in a deck. If a card is still format warping, then ban. I don't think completely removing the cards is always the way to go.
As to some of the banter in here, just use the ignore folks. Its there for a reason, and the forum improves dramatically once you do so.
The screenshot of that Turn 2 board state say's a lot about what can be done in the format. If people choose to not interact that is.
Spirits
__________________
Oh btw, the new site is already up. It also has "The State of Modern Thread".
We can continue discussions there after July 8.
https://www.mtgnexus.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=139
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Spirits
Just watched the stream of his first league today. The ending of the final game of round 5 was insane, great example of where skill+luck can win you games that you should otherwise lose.
Plus that whole league was amazing.
However, if you are solely focussing on results, if you do not plan on ending the game on turn 3, you are fooling yourself. Modern thrives on people clinging to strategies that are outdated. If Modern was started carte blanche today, two thirds of the decks people play would never exist. Even so, those decks pick up big wins because magic is a cardgame. But if you sit down and try to beat Modern as a format, the chance that you come up with "taking turns" as the solution is zero. And when I go to a big event and get Hogaak'd or Phoenix'd or Tron'd I can only think "yeah, you are completely right".
I still play Modern every week and have fun, but I also say every week: Ban Faithless Looting
The game has evolved, we can accept it or ban everything to oblivion, back to battle cruiser standard levels.
I miss the days when the meta would stew for months , not just days before everyone start talking about bans.
Magic is not just the gathering of sideboards... sometimes sideboards are all it takes. At other times the upheaval is enough that
Decks must change to address the new meta.
Sideboards are a privilege to allow 60 cards to stay relatively the same.
It does not mean decks do not die and become obsolete.
That has been true since the dawn of magic as a game.
That is all.
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
"The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
—Emily Dickinson
For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
I'm really enjoying it, but the most hardcore level I get to is FNM hehe.
Modern is at its absolute best these days when people refuse to play the top decks. I used to enjoy an LGS like that and would give anything to have it back.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
And why are some so afraid of bans that make the format better? Too many games are ending before turn4, and that makes it boring for most people.
It can't be for pure monetary reasons, come on. If you are playing faitless looting.dek, specially hogaak.dek, it's really your fault you didn't sell the expensive pieces before the bans.
There are 2 paths for Modern, and they depend upon on not what you want to play, but on what you want to play against.
You can PLAY near whatever, and if you warp to the meta you'll be fine. I don't believe anyone can argue against that.
The problem is, what are you playing against, and are the games fun for you? Well that's an individual opinion.
So what are the 2 paths?
1. Accept Modern as what it is, warp your deck around it, and accept infrequent bans/unbans if something gets nuts.
This is how Wizards has approached the format for some time, roughly 3.5 years.
2. Push for a rebuild of the ban list. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BAN MANIA. No, what this path is, is an acceptance that Modern is flawed, but that to fix it, would take multiple bans to bring the power back down and free up some actual diversity in the format.
You would ban.
Faithless Looting
Burning Inquiry
Bridge from Below
Creeping Chill
Manamorphose
Terminus
Ancient Stirrings
Allosaurus Rider
Teferi, Time Raveler
Narset, Parter of Veils
Karn, the Great Creator
And probably.
Mox Opal
Simian Spirit Guide
You UNBAN
Stoneforge Mystic
Splinter Twin
Would this dramatically change Modern? Yes.
Would it improve Modern? If you are an 'option 2 please' person, yes, and that's it.
Either you accept Modern for what it is, and you embrace the decks you play against, or you push not for a few bans, but whole sale changes to the format.
As for me? It's not realistic to hope for option 2. So I accept what I cannot change, and continue to just churn through the days until I take a good long break, by playing Warcraft Classic.
Modern is what it is, good, bad, or just Modern. Your cards don't disappear if you put them in storage. They don't lose $ value if they are in a box.
Don't like Modern as it is? It will not change from this path, it's too far gone.
Either a lot of bans are coming, or you accept Modern for what it is, or you take a break.
That's it.
EDIT: Typo's and Card Tags as I posted this from my phone.
Spirits
I still think that T3feri is the most offensive (by game design) card printed in the last 3 years.
Easily the worst since Thought-Knot and Smasher.
Spirits
I disagree, it would not fix Modern by any metric. you ban 11-13 cards at once, or even in a short span, the format dies. this is not doomsaying, this is 'Wizards took a chainsaw to the format, why should I keep playing if their shakeup strategy is apparently now MASS bannings or the cards that make the format what it is?'
Either you.
1. Accept this is current form of Modern, understanding that you can play what YOU want, but...you play against Modern.
OR
2. Start pushing for a whole swath of ban's that will actually 'fix' (if you perceive current Modern as a problem) the format.
When/If they ban Looting/Bridge, it wont really change the format. Just like banning KCI did nothing worth really worrying about for the VAST majority of the people playing the format. Something else obnoxious will come up, and then what? Ban Stirrings? Opal? Urza?
I am under no illusions they will ever follow path 2. Just as I'm under no illusions that Modern is as diverse as people like to fool themselves into thinking, or that its 'healthy' from a subjective point of view.
The tide is turning on Looting though, and Wizard's have told us that 'perception' from the community is a consideration now.
Just dont blame them when your new overlords dont let you cast spells.
Spirits
Why also ban Narset? I still plan to add her alternate art to my deck.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Its a late addition. I'm not sold on it being a problem.
Have not lost to it myself because I dont stick to decks that dont interact on the stack for more than a few games. I think its ability to tutor is more of an issue than anything else, and F Tron.
As I mentioned, Path 2 is a subjective one. Ultimately, Path 1 is what we will have. Modern is what Modern is. If you like it great. If you dont, move on, because it wont change other than to increasingly be less fair over time.
Is a Turn 4 Karn into a Turn 6 Lattice an issue? Not at all.
Is a Turn 4 Karn AND Lattice an issue? Probably not, its preferable to Ceaseless Hunger because you can at least hope to interact with either part, but in the end? Its a card Tron can use, and...I dont care for Tron having multiple options.
Spirits
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Because we actually do have an ability to influence things. KCI would not have been banned if not for player outcry. It did not have an overwhelming presence in the meta, did not win more Top 8's than Phoenix.
If this thread united behind something, and snowballed into SCG articles, Twitter, and Reddit, something would be done.
Spirits
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
So I like option 2 above, but instead of banning make these cards as a max 2-of in a deck. If a card is still format warping, then ban. I don't think completely removing the cards is always the way to go.