I'm not yet on the ban wagon for this one, but I do think it's really annoying that they keep printing "0cmc" things for graveyard decks. Now we have everything from 2/1s, 3/3s, and 3/2 fliers to an 8/8, back down to 2/2 token swarm that in some lists for no reason turns into a 9/7 for R as well as a 4/3 haste in a random color, now we're looking at the potential for T2 mill with grave strategy back up. But SFM is still banned? Counterspell is too good? We can only allow one flavor of control and it's UW? Give me a break.
Hogaak is probably just another passing phase, but they keep printing the same stuff that keeps getting this "WHOA, IT'S FREE, BROKEN META FOR SIX MONTHS BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH TOURNAMENT RESULTS"* and always in the same strategy (graveyard) and it's getting tiring. I admit they did actually ban KCI, but they epicly failed to recognize that hate cards like RIP and Void are getting out paced by yard strategies once they figure out the play pattern. It's still happening. We've seen Dredge vine win T2 against RIP, regular dredge pull out wins against good solid hate, Phoenix ignore it and win with other angles because "xerox" (like hard casting a Phoenix because you have low removal now). And now they think they'll just print an 8/8 that's psudo free AND give it a new win angle in mill!? How is this different?
After Hogaak is adequately hated out of the meta, I can't wait for them to print the next grave strategy that we have to lament over for the next 3-6 months despite me owning literally all of the grave hate relevant to anyone (I even went out of my way to get 4 Withered Wretch) and for no reason other than WotC "forgot it breaks things". Remember when you had to pay for things? Remember when the benefit from playing land was that you could generate more mana? Well now it's that you get two 2/1s, a couple 3/3s, and maybe an 8/8. Remember when the text on spells mattered beyond "cantrip"? Well, doesn't matter now because you get a few 3/2 flying haste! Counterspell kills diversity, but if I smack my deck full of "draw a card" I can play 3 of the exact same creature every game for 6 months.
I'll admit that control got some toys. We got some powerful things. But where is the free stuff? Azcanta is a T2 do nothing. Jace, as we've all found out, is pretty fragile. Teferi comes into play after you're dead. Veto is a card that only polices control, so it's awesome that control now pushes itself out of the meta. Archmage's Charm is pretty middling to bad. Force of Negation? Good sideboard tech against niche decks. Where is my removal that I can use every time I play a land? Why can't I cast Essence Scatter every time I cast 3 spells? Snapcaster? You know that costs actual mana, right? And then I still have to pay for the spell!
Tired of graveyards. Tired of free. Tired of being told "you're getting powerful things" only to watch it receive minimal testing at release and no one pay it a second thought.
/rant
*Not trying to shoot at ktk, btw, just how they ban things or how long it takes the meta to adjust.
Not trying to play the devil's advocate but if we actually think about it, like idSurge said, most if not all of the decks use the graveyard in some way. Having hate for it, is it that "hateful"? Graveyard "hate" is "less" dead than creature removal since every player uses the graveyard because it's a part of the game and not all of the decks have creatures, like LeoTzu said.
Maybe this decks only looks this dumb because nobody wants to play MB GY hate and feels that they shouldn't but probably is the right way to go. As a UW Control Player it feels super bad when I'm paired against a mirror match and all I drew was Paths and Wipes and they have the walkers and the counters. Adding more potential blanks feels strange but I'm positive that probably this is the way forward. Modern has a lot going on for it that we all enjoy and love. It's the reason why I play it over Standard. It would be somewhat hypocritical if I said that I like Modern because there are a lot of weird and cool decks that play from strange angles but I don't want them to be any good because I'd have to play actual interaction for them.
Playing more with the Legacy analogy, if we actually think about it, Legacy is the "normal people" format where the real busted stuff can happen. Larger card pool meaning more dumb stuff... But playing it feels really good. At least I always enjoyed it a lot. Most of that was due to FoW and its role. If Surgical or GY Hate does this in Modern, the degenerate decks will have to settle down on the dumbness and be more down to earth. It will make for more interesting games because you're not just free to do your goldfish because there's the real risk of the losing the game on the spot if you overextend into the GY hate. This all would result in the format slowing down a lot and making for more compelling gameplay.
In the history of Modern (and even Legacy) the graveyard was never really seen as an resource, cause there were not many pay off cards there, which would force you to interact with that zone. Dredge was the first mechanic which really showcased, what can be done with the graveyard (as in a resource similar to the hand or the battlefield). Since than, a lot of new cards have been printed, all of them interacting favourable with the graveyard, from some "innocent" mechanics like Delve to flashback (Snapcaster) and recurring creatures (from Nether Spirit to Gravecrawler). Nowadays, the graveyard is a resource which a lot of decks "abuse" in some forms, be it just for "some" value chains (baby Jace, Snappy, Unearth, Lingering Souls) to dedicated decks (Dredge, Phoenix, Bridgevine, Loam decks). That the share of those decks are rising due to that twofold development of
a) Increase of playable graveyard matters cards and
b) Players learning to value the graveyard
should also mean, that players learn to realise than graveyard hate is mandatory.
There were time periods, where you simply couldn't leave the house without Artefact hate without getting stomped by Affinity, Artefact hate nowadays is mostly counter hate and for most normal decks, bringing artefact hate (even in the SB) is even trolling.
So yes, to get to your initial standpoint, the graveyard is where the "busted" things happen in Modern, not the stack as in Legacy. Hence, yes, playing graveyard hate even maindeck (as long as it is absolutely dead elsewhere) is and was the correct choice for many months now.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I'm not yet on the ban wagon for this one, but I do think it's really annoying that they keep printing "0cmc" things for graveyard decks. Now we have everything from 2/1s, 3/3s, and 3/2 fliers to an 8/8, back down to 2/2 token swarm that in some lists for no reason turns into a 9/7 for R as well as a 4/3 haste in a random color, now we're looking at the potential for T2 mill with grave strategy back up. But SFM is still banned? Counterspell is too good? We can only allow one flavor of control and it's UW? Give me a break.
Hogaak is probably just another passing phase, but they keep printing the same stuff that keeps getting this "WHOA, IT'S FREE, BROKEN META FOR SIX MONTHS BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH TOURNAMENT RESULTS"* and always in the same strategy (graveyard) and it's getting tiring. I admit they did actually ban KCI, but they epicly failed to recognize that hate cards like RIP and Void are getting out paced by yard strategies once they figure out the play pattern. It's still happening. We've seen Dredge vine win T2 against RIP, regular dredge pull out wins against good solid hate, Phoenix ignore it and win with other angles because "xerox" (like hard casting a Phoenix because you have low removal now). And now they think they'll just print an 8/8 that's psudo free AND give it a new win angle in mill!? How is this different?
After Hogaak is adequately hated out of the meta, I can't wait for them to print the next grave strategy that we have to lament over for the next 3-6 months despite me owning literally all of the grave hate relevant to anyone (I even went out of my way to get 4 Withered Wretch) and for no reason other than WotC "forgot it breaks things". Remember when you had to pay for things? Remember when the benefit from playing land was that you could generate more mana? Well now it's that you get two 2/1s, a couple 3/3s, and maybe an 8/8. Remember when the text on spells mattered beyond "cantrip"? Well, doesn't matter now because you get a few 3/2 flying haste! Counterspell kills diversity, but if I smack my deck full of "draw a card" I can play 3 of the exact same creature every game for 6 months.
I'll admit that control got some toys. We got some powerful things. But where is the free stuff? Azcanta is a T2 do nothing. Jace, as we've all found out, is pretty fragile. Teferi comes into play after you're dead. Veto is a card that only polices control, so it's awesome that control now pushes itself out of the meta. Archmage's Charm is pretty middling to bad. Force of Negation? Good sideboard tech against niche decks. Where is my removal that I can use every time I play a land? Why can't I cast Essence Scatter every time I cast 3 spells? Snapcaster? You know that costs actual mana, right? And then I still have to pay for the spell!
Tired of graveyards. Tired of free. Tired of being told "you're getting powerful things" only to watch it receive minimal testing at release and no one pay it a second thought.
/rant
*Not trying to shoot at ktk, btw, just how they ban things or how long it takes the meta to adjust.
have to agree. Dovin's Veto is indeed good against other control decks. The sideboard card of choice when I face another UW control, being uncounterable itself makes the difference.
and about the problem. the meta right now is saturated with so much graveyard hate. It's amazing some yard decks still thrive in this environment.. Hogaak being the latest example. It's beyond my understanding why they had the urge to print this Hogaak when the yards are plenty crazy already?
It's amazing some yard decks still thrive in this environment.. Hogaak being the latest example. It's beyond my understanding why they had the urge to print this Hogaak when the yards are plenty crazy already?
Technically, they also printed altar of dementia (and carrion feeder) at the same time. I have a hard time believing they didn't see and test the altar/hogaak synergy. I suppose they simply failed to find the best shell. Not blaming them, they can't compete with the whole internet to find these new best decks.
About MD graveyard hate. I'm going to go theory-crafting here, but the problem with these line of arguments is that required answers worsen decks that have to pack them. The effect is that the top deck(s) of the format force lesser decks to bend to their strategy, which makes already inferior decks even worse.
For example, let's assume hogaak were a tier-0 deck, better than any other GY deck and better than other decks overall. That means hogaak forces everyone to play MD GY hate. Fair enough, that's what meta-gaming and adaption is about. But the thing is that hogaak, by virtue of being the best deck, is not forced to bend as much to other deck MB and even SB, because it's already the best deck. This argument is no hogaak-specific, any best-deck would have the same effect. Having a deck better (or at least as good as any other) that has a specific strategy that requires specific maindeck answers gains an additional advantage over what it already got by making other decks dedicate slots to card that have nothing to do with their strategy.
That's the perverse thing of these oddball strategies when they get good.
For example, let's assume hogaak were a tier-0 deck, better than any other GY deck and better than other decks overall. That means hogaak forces everyone to play MD GY hate. Fair enough, that's what meta-gaming and adaption is about. But the thing is that hogaak, by virtue of being the best deck, is not forced to bend as much to other deck MB and even SB, because it's already the best deck. This argument is no hogaak-specific, any best-deck would have the same effect. Having a deck better (or at least as good as any other) that has a specific strategy that requires specific maindeck answers gains an additional advantage over what it already got by making other decks dedicate slots to card that have nothing to do with their strategy.
agreed on those. Well, having maindeck nihil spellbombs is a part of my strategy since it grows tarmogoyf. But even without facing Hogaak yet.. I feel Bgx has a hard time beating it. A good deck to fight this is a UW with plenty of exile removal, preferably settle the wreckage style board wipes. It's already hard when normal dredge got creep chill, now there is a super dredge that has a quick 8/8 and mill strategy.
It's amazing some yard decks still thrive in this environment.. Hogaak being the latest example. It's beyond my understanding why they had the urge to print this Hogaak when the yards are plenty crazy already?
Technically, they also printed altar of dementia (and carrion feeder) at the same time. I have a hard time believing they didn't see and test the altar/hogaak synergy. I suppose they simply failed to find the best shell. Not blaming them, they can't compete with the whole internet to find these new best decks.
About MD graveyard hate. I'm going to go theory-crafting here, but the problem with these line of arguments is that required answers worsen decks that have to pack them. The effect is that the top deck(s) of the format force lesser decks to bend to their strategy, which makes already inferior decks even worse.
For example, let's assume hogaak were a tier-0 deck, better than any other GY deck and better than other decks overall. That means hogaak forces everyone to play MD GY hate. Fair enough, that's what meta-gaming and adaption is about. But the thing is that hogaak, by virtue of being the best deck, is not forced to bend as much to other deck MB and even SB, because it's already the best deck. This argument is no hogaak-specific, any best-deck would have the same effect. Having a deck better (or at least as good as any other) that has a specific strategy that requires specific maindeck answers gains an additional advantage over what it already got by making other decks dedicate slots to card that have nothing to do with their strategy.
That's the perverse thing of these oddball strategies when they get good.
We just saw this with Phoenix. It warped itself for the mirror. This is pretty standard stuff in formats with less diversity, and is not something we have had to deal with in Modern for some time (thinking years time span here, not the last several months).
Hogaak decks will eventually warp to handle eachother, and decks running HUGE amounts of GY hate will see some success, until they are preyed upon by something like GDS or Humans, assuming the main deck strategy of the decks fueling up on GY hate can withstand the pressures of those decks.
All told, Phoenix never saw a ban, and is now going to go 'under radar', while it has every opportunity (with GDS) to run 4 Surgical Main, and bring in 'free' sideboard cards as well.
Since I've sold out of most of Modern, and my brews (Zombies and Ninjas!) have literally next to zero chance against the wider meta. Well its back to some bolts for me.
it feels like modern is increasing in power level. Is phoenix considered a "normal" strength deck now, while Hogaak is the new overpowered deck that people are calling for bans?
it feels like modern is increasing in power level. Is phoenix considered a "normal" strength deck now, while Hogaak is the new overpowered deck that people are calling for bans?
I personally believe so. It is a very beatable deck and I definitely would NOT say so 2 months ago.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
it feels like modern is increasing in power level. Is phoenix considered a "normal" strength deck now, while Hogaak is the new overpowered deck that people are calling for bans?
Phoenix is considered a 'fair' 'midrange' 'interactive' deck in Modern, by the online Magic twitter/SCG/CFB types. Take that for what you will.
just gotta say wizards missed an opportunity with force of despair. could have easily tagged on an exile clause to give it applications against GY creature decks.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I just want to state, before the site gets archived forever, that the nonsense mental gymnastics people are doing, in order to get riled up and call for bans for a card that isn't even released yet are staggering.
I hate it. I hate the knee-jerk "everything's a problem" mentality every time a new set comes out, or a deck happens to do well at a tournament. I hate the inscrutable need some people have to just complain and call for bans at every turn, completely ignoring the twenty, thirty times when they did exactly the same thing but everything was fine after the format adjusted.
It's completely exhausting being surrounded (in a community sense) by players who instead of appreciating new things or incorporating new variables into the landscape have to see every new thing as a terrible, insurmountable threat.
It's baffling and frustrating that players of a format like modern will spend their mental energy creating a philosophy which argues against the natural churn of the format and retreat into stagnant ban-talk, complaining that things aren't staying the same instead of innovating and altering their approach.
If there's one thread I'll be glad to see disappear from the face of the planet, it'll be this one. For most of the last half-decade it's been the more or less the same small-ish crew of complainers, endlessly riling each other up in an echo chamber of perceived problems and issues that only exist if you lack imagination.
End of an era. We'll miss the primers and the genuine discussion about how to improve and innovate on the constant shifting metagame. We'll miss the people who put in effort and time to help others understand this complex game. Those generous people who lent their knowledge and expertise will be remembered. Nobody will miss the fragmented ban-driven panic and negativity. Its a complete waste of everyone's time and when this site bites the dust next month, I'll feel content to say goodbye to this thread forever. Good riddance.
Here's to a more positive discourse and the faint hope that the new website in the works curates spaces that engender positive, useful discussion instead of a blank slate for useless uninformed negativity to rule.
And with that, I'm out. If you've spent the last five years being angry at modern for a different reason every couple of weeks, ask yourself what you were really angry at, because it sure wasn't modern.
It's been a ride. I wish you all the best.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
And I will never forget K0no, for defending Eldrazi winter a month into it being ~50% of the meta, saying people just had to adapt
A broken clock is right twice a day. The fact that you just had to resort to hyperbole from a period that happened three years ago (because I'm not even sure he defended it) and had no other examples to show off really drives your point home.
just gotta say wizards missed an opportunity with force of despair. could have easily tagged on an exile clause to give it applications against GY creature decks.
Totally agree on this one. I was really expecting some better safety valve cards from Modern Horizons, but all we got are highly situational cards that don't truly address some of the issues in the format. I like the design of Force of Despair, and I even think it's a decent card as it is... but an exile clause would have went a long way on that one.
My overall feeling about Modern Horizons, as a mostly fair deck player, is that it feels like Christmas... except all of your friends got really cool toys when they opened up their presents and I got a pair of long underwear. Force of Despair? Sort of cool I guess, but most of those creatures I just killed for zero mana are just coming back the next turn. Force of Negation? It's okay, but totally overhyped. Archmage's Charm? Um, neato... a really hard to cast Cancel that sometimes turns into CA when I need it. Seasoned Pyromancer? Again, cool, but nothing that really makes me feel any more equipped to take on linear decks. The Horizon lands are awesome, but they slot right into the linear, unfair decks too, so it doesn't really fee like a win.
Don't get me wrong, I'm going to continue playing Modern and I think the format is still fine, but I just can't help feel a tinge of disappointment at the whole set.
just gotta say wizards missed an opportunity with force of despair. could have easily tagged on an exile clause to give it applications against GY creature decks.
they probably want to keep W the main source of battlefield creature exile effects.
About Modern Horizons. I'm pleased with it. Plenty new cards to test, and the horizon lands. Glad to have more ninjas, as the tribe badly needs it after 14 years of no new modern playable ninja. Null rod ouphe, so even mono green budget decks have ways to fight tron and harden scales. Liking the new changelings and fairy as well.
just gotta say wizards missed an opportunity with force of despair. could have easily tagged on an exile clause to give it applications against GY creature decks.
they probably want to keep W the main source of battlefield creature exile effects.
We got Cry of the Carnarium in Standard, I think the equivalent for FoD would have been a nice addition with the rampant graveyard strategies in Modern. It wouldn't deal with Indestructible creatures, but handles recursion, which is the problem in Modern.
just gotta say wizards missed an opportunity with force of despair. could have easily tagged on an exile clause to give it applications against GY creature decks.
they probably want to keep W the main source of battlefield creature exile effects.
About Modern Horizons. I'm pleased with it. Plenty new cards to test, and the horizon lands. Glad to have more ninjas, as the tribe badly needs it after 14 years of no new modern playable ninja. Null rod ouphe, so even mono green budget decks have ways to fight tron and harden scales. Liking the new changelings and fairy as well.
Exile is in black's wheelhouse. Here are just a few off the top of my head.
A broken clock is right twice a day. The fact that you just had to resort to hyperbole...
Saying this to defend someone who claims people called for bans for twenty or thirty decks is hilarious. There isn't even that amount of decks total in tier 1 and 2. Use hyperbole, receive hyperbole?
Also, every single time a new good deck appears, people get accused of calling for bans when they're merely talking about the deck. This very discussion about hogaak is a perfect example of it. Almost (*almost*) every single person in the past two pages have *not* called for a ban but said the deck is strong and requires MB GY hate... which is exactly what K0no claims we're not doing. ( When a poster calls everyone idiots, well, don't be surprised if people don't appreciate his input.
And I will never forget K0no, for defending Eldrazi winter a month into it being ~50% of the meta, saying people just had to adapt
A broken clock is right twice a day. The fact that you just had to resort to hyperbole from a period that happened three years ago (because I'm not even sure he defended it) and had no other examples to show off really drives your point home.
No hyperbole, he defended eldrazi winter to the bitter end.
It comes from two sides, you know. You can be too careful in banning things. With how slow the tiny amount of data we get from events comes in, it is VERY easy to say that, according to the stats, we are fine. That is called a type 2 error.
And although there are indeed people that jump on every deck demanding a ban, I don't think that's the case for most ban proponents. Using myself as an example, I have been talking about the same single ban for a long time; Faithless Looting. If it seems like people jump on every new deck demanding a ban, it might be because every time something dumb and unfair is powerful in modern, it involves Looting breaking the resource system. Really makes you think.
If you go through my post history, you can see that when Neoform was the talk of the town, I was not on the ban train. I express frustration that the first thing that breaks out of WAR is yet another combo deck, but also say I want to see more data. I didn't really talk about newKarn at all, mostly because tron has always been obnoxious with or without two tutors and a softlock. Other than that, I have always been consistent in claiming that the format would be much better off without Faithless Looting.
For those of you downplaying the concern of other players, you have to understand that this hobby is a big chunk of time and money for people. It's incredibly aggravating and disheartening when your opponent slams you in t2 game after game out of the gate. There are cards that lead to bad game play, period. This is what the initial bans when modern was born were all about.
I'd be up in arms to if I spent months and money repping a deck to compete at a tournament I already paid room and tickets for only to know that the top tables are going to be full of people who had the financial ability to pivot into the new hot deck.
I dont think bridge decks are okay personally. I also don't think lootings is the issue, there is simply too much value coming out of the yard and it's all recursive. That's the problem, you can't kill this stuff without exile and the exile stuff is hitting too late. Uw control almost has to hit a lucky terminus by t3 or it can get blown out by these strats.
The spillover damage is that decks like elves, zoo, goblins, vampires, etc. get wrecked by collateral damage because they are soft to sweepers, especially those that need to compete with the power coming out of the yard t2-3.
I think the format needs modal grave hate and it's needed modal artifact hate for years. abrade and ashiok, dream render are positive design trends because they at least do something while being very good at these things. They're still sketchy mainboard cards though.
I think it's too early to ban, but if they wait 6 months and continue to sacrifice 4-5 tournaments to these decks set after set in going to have to throw in the towel.
My LGS is regularly finishing modern night 4 round tournaments in 2 hours (or less) with 12+ participants. That's 30 min a round on average including shuffling, people hanging out to chat, waiting for people to get to the table, and reporting. Actually 2/3 matches may be 15-20 min if you're lucky and many of those games are over far before the cards are scooped up. If you're lucky enough to get to 3 games you're looking at 8-12 collective turns a game at most...that's pathetic.
I just want to state, before the site gets archived forever, that the nonsense mental gymnastics people are doing, in order to get riled up and call for bans for a card that isn't even released yet are staggering.
....
Here's to a more positive discourse and the faint hope that the new website in the works curates spaces that engender positive, useful discussion instead of a blank slate for useless uninformed negativity to rule.
I think noting things that are new, and explosive, and can look absurd, is not an issue. I think calling for emergency ban's are hyperbolic certainly, but a lot of your post also boils down to people wanting different things.
For everyone that wants a churning, rotational meta, there is AT LEAST one person, that wants to play 'their deck' that for some is the only deck they could afford to build, to remain viable (if not optimal) and competitive.
People who are satisfied, by and large, do not go to forums to talk about things. They go there to complain about things, look for answers and help.
Personally, I find we can watch the trends of the online/high end meta unfold, and for that purpose this thread and twitter, have served me quite well over the years.
I played against the AltarVine deck a lot with several different archetypes. Comparing this to Eldrazi with Eye is utterly ridiculous. I suspect people just want to play their pet decks (which aren’t well positioned) and that’s it. We’ve got lots of powerful options (all of them with different strategies) in Modern. The new piece of candy is only one of them.
It's never a question of how explosive a deck is, but how consistent. Add in resilience to hate and then you can talk about bans (aka what happened to kci). But there is still the fact wizards doesn't want people winning before turn 4. If pre turn 4 wins are happening, ban talk I think is perfectly normal, which is why people immediately started asking about allasaurus combo win rate.
Bridge is going to Jesus on the 8th, that's for sure.
I think, for wizards, it's intended to have removal maindeck, but having graveyard have both in the md and the sb is not what wizards intends for a healthy format.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C717Dodx63M
So funny how the only games he loses are because of incredible amounts of graveyard hate. I wonder what that amount of MD GY hate does against tron and humans tho.
PD: magic aids is the best.
MD GY hate (aka Surgical) is fine against both Tron and Humans. Removal of a Tron land via GQ/Field into Surgical? Thats great. Removal of a key Human into Surgical? Fine.
You then have if you desire, 4 cards you can easily shift out post board.
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Hogaak is probably just another passing phase, but they keep printing the same stuff that keeps getting this "WHOA, IT'S FREE, BROKEN META FOR SIX MONTHS BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH TOURNAMENT RESULTS"* and always in the same strategy (graveyard) and it's getting tiring. I admit they did actually ban KCI, but they epicly failed to recognize that hate cards like RIP and Void are getting out paced by yard strategies once they figure out the play pattern. It's still happening. We've seen Dredge vine win T2 against RIP, regular dredge pull out wins against good solid hate, Phoenix ignore it and win with other angles because "xerox" (like hard casting a Phoenix because you have low removal now). And now they think they'll just print an 8/8 that's psudo free AND give it a new win angle in mill!? How is this different?
After Hogaak is adequately hated out of the meta, I can't wait for them to print the next grave strategy that we have to lament over for the next 3-6 months despite me owning literally all of the grave hate relevant to anyone (I even went out of my way to get 4 Withered Wretch) and for no reason other than WotC "forgot it breaks things". Remember when you had to pay for things? Remember when the benefit from playing land was that you could generate more mana? Well now it's that you get two 2/1s, a couple 3/3s, and maybe an 8/8. Remember when the text on spells mattered beyond "cantrip"? Well, doesn't matter now because you get a few 3/2 flying haste! Counterspell kills diversity, but if I smack my deck full of "draw a card" I can play 3 of the exact same creature every game for 6 months.
I'll admit that control got some toys. We got some powerful things. But where is the free stuff? Azcanta is a T2 do nothing. Jace, as we've all found out, is pretty fragile. Teferi comes into play after you're dead. Veto is a card that only polices control, so it's awesome that control now pushes itself out of the meta. Archmage's Charm is pretty middling to bad. Force of Negation? Good sideboard tech against niche decks. Where is my removal that I can use every time I play a land? Why can't I cast Essence Scatter every time I cast 3 spells? Snapcaster? You know that costs actual mana, right? And then I still have to pay for the spell!
Tired of graveyards. Tired of free. Tired of being told "you're getting powerful things" only to watch it receive minimal testing at release and no one pay it a second thought.
/rant
*Not trying to shoot at ktk, btw, just how they ban things or how long it takes the meta to adjust.
I apologize. I would expect downvotes, but as a great king once said "We, we don't do that here."
"Reveal a Dragon"
In the history of Modern (and even Legacy) the graveyard was never really seen as an resource, cause there were not many pay off cards there, which would force you to interact with that zone. Dredge was the first mechanic which really showcased, what can be done with the graveyard (as in a resource similar to the hand or the battlefield). Since than, a lot of new cards have been printed, all of them interacting favourable with the graveyard, from some "innocent" mechanics like Delve to flashback (Snapcaster) and recurring creatures (from Nether Spirit to Gravecrawler). Nowadays, the graveyard is a resource which a lot of decks "abuse" in some forms, be it just for "some" value chains (baby Jace, Snappy, Unearth, Lingering Souls) to dedicated decks (Dredge, Phoenix, Bridgevine, Loam decks). That the share of those decks are rising due to that twofold development of
a) Increase of playable graveyard matters cards and
b) Players learning to value the graveyard
should also mean, that players learn to realise than graveyard hate is mandatory.
There were time periods, where you simply couldn't leave the house without Artefact hate without getting stomped by Affinity, Artefact hate nowadays is mostly counter hate and for most normal decks, bringing artefact hate (even in the SB) is even trolling.
So yes, to get to your initial standpoint, the graveyard is where the "busted" things happen in Modern, not the stack as in Legacy. Hence, yes, playing graveyard hate even maindeck (as long as it is absolutely dead elsewhere) is and was the correct choice for many months now.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
have to agree. Dovin's Veto is indeed good against other control decks. The sideboard card of choice when I face another UW control, being uncounterable itself makes the difference.
and about the problem. the meta right now is saturated with so much graveyard hate. It's amazing some yard decks still thrive in this environment.. Hogaak being the latest example. It's beyond my understanding why they had the urge to print this Hogaak when the yards are plenty crazy already?
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Technically, they also printed altar of dementia (and carrion feeder) at the same time. I have a hard time believing they didn't see and test the altar/hogaak synergy. I suppose they simply failed to find the best shell. Not blaming them, they can't compete with the whole internet to find these new best decks.
About MD graveyard hate. I'm going to go theory-crafting here, but the problem with these line of arguments is that required answers worsen decks that have to pack them. The effect is that the top deck(s) of the format force lesser decks to bend to their strategy, which makes already inferior decks even worse.
For example, let's assume hogaak were a tier-0 deck, better than any other GY deck and better than other decks overall. That means hogaak forces everyone to play MD GY hate. Fair enough, that's what meta-gaming and adaption is about. But the thing is that hogaak, by virtue of being the best deck, is not forced to bend as much to other deck MB and even SB, because it's already the best deck. This argument is no hogaak-specific, any best-deck would have the same effect. Having a deck better (or at least as good as any other) that has a specific strategy that requires specific maindeck answers gains an additional advantage over what it already got by making other decks dedicate slots to card that have nothing to do with their strategy.
That's the perverse thing of these oddball strategies when they get good.
agreed on those. Well, having maindeck nihil spellbombs is a part of my strategy since it grows tarmogoyf. But even without facing Hogaak yet.. I feel Bgx has a hard time beating it. A good deck to fight this is a UW with plenty of exile removal, preferably settle the wreckage style board wipes. It's already hard when normal dredge got creep chill, now there is a super dredge that has a quick 8/8 and mill strategy.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
We just saw this with Phoenix. It warped itself for the mirror. This is pretty standard stuff in formats with less diversity, and is not something we have had to deal with in Modern for some time (thinking years time span here, not the last several months).
Hogaak decks will eventually warp to handle eachother, and decks running HUGE amounts of GY hate will see some success, until they are preyed upon by something like GDS or Humans, assuming the main deck strategy of the decks fueling up on GY hate can withstand the pressures of those decks.
All told, Phoenix never saw a ban, and is now going to go 'under radar', while it has every opportunity (with GDS) to run 4 Surgical Main, and bring in 'free' sideboard cards as well.
Since I've sold out of most of Modern, and my brews (Zombies and Ninjas!) have literally next to zero chance against the wider meta. Well its back to some bolts for me.
Spirits
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I personally believe so. It is a very beatable deck and I definitely would NOT say so 2 months ago.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Phoenix is considered a 'fair' 'midrange' 'interactive' deck in Modern, by the online Magic twitter/SCG/CFB types. Take that for what you will.
Spirits
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I just want to state, before the site gets archived forever, that the nonsense mental gymnastics people are doing, in order to get riled up and call for bans for a card that isn't even released yet are staggering.
I hate it. I hate the knee-jerk "everything's a problem" mentality every time a new set comes out, or a deck happens to do well at a tournament. I hate the inscrutable need some people have to just complain and call for bans at every turn, completely ignoring the twenty, thirty times when they did exactly the same thing but everything was fine after the format adjusted.
It's completely exhausting being surrounded (in a community sense) by players who instead of appreciating new things or incorporating new variables into the landscape have to see every new thing as a terrible, insurmountable threat.
It's baffling and frustrating that players of a format like modern will spend their mental energy creating a philosophy which argues against the natural churn of the format and retreat into stagnant ban-talk, complaining that things aren't staying the same instead of innovating and altering their approach.
If there's one thread I'll be glad to see disappear from the face of the planet, it'll be this one. For most of the last half-decade it's been the more or less the same small-ish crew of complainers, endlessly riling each other up in an echo chamber of perceived problems and issues that only exist if you lack imagination.
End of an era. We'll miss the primers and the genuine discussion about how to improve and innovate on the constant shifting metagame. We'll miss the people who put in effort and time to help others understand this complex game. Those generous people who lent their knowledge and expertise will be remembered. Nobody will miss the fragmented ban-driven panic and negativity. Its a complete waste of everyone's time and when this site bites the dust next month, I'll feel content to say goodbye to this thread forever. Good riddance.
Here's to a more positive discourse and the faint hope that the new website in the works curates spaces that engender positive, useful discussion instead of a blank slate for useless uninformed negativity to rule.
And with that, I'm out. If you've spent the last five years being angry at modern for a different reason every couple of weeks, ask yourself what you were really angry at, because it sure wasn't modern.
It's been a ride. I wish you all the best.
A broken clock is right twice a day. The fact that you just had to resort to hyperbole from a period that happened three years ago (because I'm not even sure he defended it) and had no other examples to show off really drives your point home.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
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Totally agree on this one. I was really expecting some better safety valve cards from Modern Horizons, but all we got are highly situational cards that don't truly address some of the issues in the format. I like the design of Force of Despair, and I even think it's a decent card as it is... but an exile clause would have went a long way on that one.
My overall feeling about Modern Horizons, as a mostly fair deck player, is that it feels like Christmas... except all of your friends got really cool toys when they opened up their presents and I got a pair of long underwear. Force of Despair? Sort of cool I guess, but most of those creatures I just killed for zero mana are just coming back the next turn. Force of Negation? It's okay, but totally overhyped. Archmage's Charm? Um, neato... a really hard to cast Cancel that sometimes turns into CA when I need it. Seasoned Pyromancer? Again, cool, but nothing that really makes me feel any more equipped to take on linear decks. The Horizon lands are awesome, but they slot right into the linear, unfair decks too, so it doesn't really fee like a win.
Don't get me wrong, I'm going to continue playing Modern and I think the format is still fine, but I just can't help feel a tinge of disappointment at the whole set.
they probably want to keep W the main source of battlefield creature exile effects.
About Modern Horizons. I'm pleased with it. Plenty new cards to test, and the horizon lands. Glad to have more ninjas, as the tribe badly needs it after 14 years of no new modern playable ninja. Null rod ouphe, so even mono green budget decks have ways to fight tron and harden scales. Liking the new changelings and fairy as well.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
We got Cry of the Carnarium in Standard, I think the equivalent for FoD would have been a nice addition with the rampant graveyard strategies in Modern. It wouldn't deal with Indestructible creatures, but handles recursion, which is the problem in Modern.
Exile is in black's wheelhouse. Here are just a few off the top of my head.
Saying this to defend someone who claims people called for bans for twenty or thirty decks is hilarious. There isn't even that amount of decks total in tier 1 and 2. Use hyperbole, receive hyperbole?
Also, every single time a new good deck appears, people get accused of calling for bans when they're merely talking about the deck. This very discussion about hogaak is a perfect example of it. Almost (*almost*) every single person in the past two pages have *not* called for a ban but said the deck is strong and requires MB GY hate... which is exactly what K0no claims we're not doing. ( When a poster calls everyone idiots, well, don't be surprised if people don't appreciate his input.
No hyperbole, he defended eldrazi winter to the bitter end.
It comes from two sides, you know. You can be too careful in banning things. With how slow the tiny amount of data we get from events comes in, it is VERY easy to say that, according to the stats, we are fine. That is called a type 2 error.
And although there are indeed people that jump on every deck demanding a ban, I don't think that's the case for most ban proponents. Using myself as an example, I have been talking about the same single ban for a long time; Faithless Looting. If it seems like people jump on every new deck demanding a ban, it might be because every time something dumb and unfair is powerful in modern, it involves Looting breaking the resource system. Really makes you think.
If you go through my post history, you can see that when Neoform was the talk of the town, I was not on the ban train. I express frustration that the first thing that breaks out of WAR is yet another combo deck, but also say I want to see more data. I didn't really talk about newKarn at all, mostly because tron has always been obnoxious with or without two tutors and a softlock. Other than that, I have always been consistent in claiming that the format would be much better off without Faithless Looting.
I'd be up in arms to if I spent months and money repping a deck to compete at a tournament I already paid room and tickets for only to know that the top tables are going to be full of people who had the financial ability to pivot into the new hot deck.
I dont think bridge decks are okay personally. I also don't think lootings is the issue, there is simply too much value coming out of the yard and it's all recursive. That's the problem, you can't kill this stuff without exile and the exile stuff is hitting too late. Uw control almost has to hit a lucky terminus by t3 or it can get blown out by these strats.
The spillover damage is that decks like elves, zoo, goblins, vampires, etc. get wrecked by collateral damage because they are soft to sweepers, especially those that need to compete with the power coming out of the yard t2-3.
I think the format needs modal grave hate and it's needed modal artifact hate for years. abrade and ashiok, dream render are positive design trends because they at least do something while being very good at these things. They're still sketchy mainboard cards though.
I think it's too early to ban, but if they wait 6 months and continue to sacrifice 4-5 tournaments to these decks set after set in going to have to throw in the towel.
My LGS is regularly finishing modern night 4 round tournaments in 2 hours (or less) with 12+ participants. That's 30 min a round on average including shuffling, people hanging out to chat, waiting for people to get to the table, and reporting. Actually 2/3 matches may be 15-20 min if you're lucky and many of those games are over far before the cards are scooped up. If you're lucky enough to get to 3 games you're looking at 8-12 collective turns a game at most...that's pathetic.
I think noting things that are new, and explosive, and can look absurd, is not an issue. I think calling for emergency ban's are hyperbolic certainly, but a lot of your post also boils down to people wanting different things.
For everyone that wants a churning, rotational meta, there is AT LEAST one person, that wants to play 'their deck' that for some is the only deck they could afford to build, to remain viable (if not optimal) and competitive.
People who are satisfied, by and large, do not go to forums to talk about things. They go there to complain about things, look for answers and help.
Personally, I find we can watch the trends of the online/high end meta unfold, and for that purpose this thread and twitter, have served me quite well over the years.
Spirits
I think, for wizards, it's intended to have removal maindeck, but having graveyard have both in the md and the sb is not what wizards intends for a healthy format.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C717Dodx63M
So funny how the only games he loses are because of incredible amounts of graveyard hate. I wonder what that amount of MD GY hate does against tron and humans tho.
PD: magic aids is the best.
You then have if you desire, 4 cards you can easily shift out post board.
Spirits