as for SFM, had given up long ago that it will be unbanned. Perhaps somewhere in the distant future, as a last attempt at a cash grab before WoTC finally goes under..
It's really, really sad though. That card is literally worse than at least 5 other current Modern cards and most of us know it (including you of course).
In this current format, here's the cards that I think could NOT even compete with Hogaak - Splinter Twin, Gitaxian Probe, Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Preordain, Dread Return, Birthing Pod. I described to my family how I won a tiny tournament today with Hogaak. I said that basically the deck that I was playing has an upper hand against any other deck.
When I've played Neoform, I know I've done better. But I feel a lot of that is luck and experience with Glass Cannon decks for me. With Hogaak, I've made plenty of errors, but as long as I know how to cast Altar of Dementia on turns 2/3 and the necessary creatures on the other turn of turns 2/3, I know how to win. I've done a lot of good sequencing, but I've noticed some small errors that I have made that could have cost me. With Neoform, I'm 14-2. Hogaak, 12-4 so far.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
On the other hand I am encouraged by MH1. The strong new hogaak combo is my kind of deck, and several decks got some new peices. People in my area bought lots of it so hopefully they will make more sets like this. We should have gotten counterspell though.
I don't know how attached I would get to the Hogaak deck. If there is any justice in the world, that horrid monstrosity will be killed off in the next B&R. It is stupidly fast, powerful, resilient, and hard to hate out.
Ya I believe they will do something about it too, but who really knows with WOTC. It's still my kind of deck. And if it gets nerfed a bit, it could evolve or I can still play that shell in legacy. I agree you can not stay attached to an obvious best deck in modern.
I know there are lots of people on this thread who are complaining about being impossible to play a Snap-Bolt deck competitively.
All I’ll say is that I top8’d in the last 3 out of 4 tournaments with Blue Moon, since we got new toys (Force, Shinkole, Charm, Ashiok). Just to give ya’ll some hope. Deck feels super good right now.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
As predicted, metagame already started to shift again. People just understood that they had to run some Grave hate in the sideboard.
If an average of 6 pieces of GY hate per deck still lets a graveyard deck to take up half of a top 16 is considered reasonable adaptation, I'm super curious as to what you consider to be warping.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
As predicted, metagame already started to shift again. People just understood that they had to run some Grave hate in the sideboard.
If an average of 6 pieces of GY hate per deck still lets a graveyard deck to take up half of a top 16 is considered reasonable adaptation, I'm super curious as to what you consider to be warping.
I dont think anyone is going to argue its not warping, the question to me is if Hogaak is pulling from the Dredge/Phoenix counts as well, and has just killed off that diversity, while becoming 'the' GY deck.
EDIT: Looked over the lists quick, and yes its a warped Hogaak meta. No argument. I really hope thats what the upcoming SCG/GP events look like.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Doubt WOTC would consider doing anything until after at least a couple events with London Mulligan.
When is that in effect in Paper? I certainly hope its the upcoming GP/SCG events so we can just put everything on the table and say 'yep this is it' instead of 'well maybe War of the Spark...well maybe Horizons...well maybe Core 2020...well maybe London Mull!'
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
July 5th is when it starts for paper I believe. So depending on the paper modern event calendar after that... well we'll just see how it goes.
1st SCG Modern Open post LM is 27/28 July.
1st Modern Magic Fest seems to be Barcelona 26 July.
So uhhh yeah, won't expect anything until end of August for paper magic to impact any decisions. Only online data for pretty much the whole of July.
Bleh. Off by a week! That means we will have to probably endure people saying the Mull will somehow fix it...now I REALLY hope those 2 events are utterly dominated by Hogaak.
Ross Merriam makes a good argument for never unbanning stoneforge mystic. Stoneforge isn't exactly strong but also doesn't warp the way a deck is constructed. "The opportunity cost to run twin or stoneforge packages is almost zero." I personally feel that stoneforge would make tempo decks too strong.
That's not a good argument. If lack of opportunity cost is a problem, then we should be banning Lightning Bolt; exactly what opportunity cost does that card have? Or Path to Exile? Or Thoughtseize? Or, heck, the fetchlands? In fact, I'd say all of those have less opportunity cost than Stoneforge Mystic. And while Tarmogoyf's stock has gone down considerably due to Fatal Push being printed, for a long time that card had the opportunity cost of... having to play cards that were already good. Reminds me of how I've seen it remarked that the "downside" of Delver of Secrets in Legacy is having to play what are already the best cards in the format.
As for the Splinter Twin example, that makes even less sense, because there is major opportunity cost. The combo requires 10 cards in your deck, which is hardly a minor amount, and all of them--all of them--are mediocre-to-terrible by themselves. That means that you've taking out 10 good cards in favor of cards that are not good in order to try to pull off or threaten the combo. The claim there's barely an opportunity cost is laughable.
To be fair, I am responding to your representation of his argument, so maybe he said it better originally... but as presented, it's a nonsense argument.
July 5th is when it starts for paper I believe. So depending on the paper modern event calendar after that... well we'll just see how it goes.
1st SCG Modern Open post LM is 27/28 July.
1st Modern Magic Fest seems to be Barcelona 26 July.
So uhhh yeah, won't expect anything until end of August for paper magic to impact any decisions. Only online data for pretty much the whole of July.
Bleh. Off by a week! That means we will have to probably endure people saying the Mull will somehow fix it...now I REALLY hope those 2 events are utterly dominated by Hogaak.
It's not going to fix it. Pretty sure the Hogaak deck breaks Bridge from Below beyond what's acceptable in an eternal format. I'd expect Bridge to be gone from the format now.
For some context on Twin: when it was legal, Electrolyze was a playable Magic card. Lightning Bolt killed a lot of relevant things. Remand had a meaningful tempo impact. Graveyards were almost exclusively Tarmogoyf buffs. And the decks which could kill fast (Infect and Burn) got hosed by cards like Electrolyze, Bolt, Tap-Your-Attacker, and Sure-I'll-Block. Nowadays, best fast decks don't care about discard, don't care about removal, don't care about counterspells, and kill faster and more consistently than either of those used to. Sometimes they even do it through many of the targetedpiecesofhatewe'reforcedtoplay.
Meanwhile, a 1/2 that sometimes fetches a 4/4 is banned. Good grief.
As someone who plays this deck, I don't think banning Bridge from Below is enough. I think there has to be multiple bans, like Hogaak AND Altar of Dementia or Hogaak and Bridge from Below. I personally don't think a turn 2/3 8/8 Tramply fellow is all right for Modern. But maybe I'm wrong? Stitcher's Supplier is another card many forget about and is one of this deck's best draws. That and Faithless Looting...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
As someone who plays this deck, I don't think banning Bridge from Below is enough. I think there has to be multiple bans, like Hogaak AND Altar of Dementia or Hogaak and Bridge from Below. I personally don't think a turn 2/3 8/8 Tramply fellow is all right for Modern. But maybe I'm wrong? Stitcher's Supplier is another card many forget about and is one of this deck's best draws. That and Faithless Looting...
If the deck does turn out to be too good, I actually do wonder if Stitcher's Supplier might be the right ban; practically all of the crazy starts the deck can get rely on that card. The only "crazy start" I can think of that doesn't require it is turn 1 Faithless Looting, drop in two Vengevines, turn 2 cast two 1-mana creatures, which is fairly unlikely to be able to pull off.
So this new mill deck wins either by dredge style creature rush or turbo mill. That means pillow port will have a spot light or turbo fog. Ghostly Prison and singleton main deck Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. That's so much fun. For those of you who have never thought of that as an anti-mill card, it's amazing. I play it in one of my decks all of the time. O and you're welcome. I only give you all the best SB cards solutions ever.
Gaea's Blessing is better for this, since it actually does something, if you draw it.
Furthermore, Ghostly Prison is rather mediocre, when it comes down on turn 3 and the opp can attack with an 8/8 through it. It only gets relevant, if you follow up with a Sphere, but than again, needing to draw two specific cards to not just die on turn 4 sucks.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
As someone who plays this deck, I don't think banning Bridge from Below is enough. I think there has to be multiple bans, like Hogaak AND Altar of Dementia or Hogaak and Bridge from Below. I personally don't think a turn 2/3 8/8 Tramply fellow is all right for Modern. But maybe I'm wrong? Stitcher's Supplier is another card many forget about and is one of this deck's best draws. That and Faithless Looting...
Well, I'm probably a little blase about big critters on turn 2-3, but I don't think Hogaak is that big of a problem without the free fuel of Bridge, TBH. Without all of the free tokens from Bridge, you're much more limited in how many times you can cast a Hogaak. Altar is only really broken with Bridge- it's "merely" very good without it. I've been trying out Bridgeless lists with Hogaak and Altar, and they feel pretty fair to play and sit across from. Combo kills become much, much rarer without Bridge. The aggro kills seem to be about 1-2 turns slower, give or take.
Gaea's Blessing is better for this, since it actually does something, if you draw it.
Furthermore, Ghostly Prison is rather mediocre, when it comes down on turn 3 and the opp can attack with an 8/8 through it. It only gets relevant, if you follow up with a Sphere, but than again, needing to draw two specific cards to not just die on turn 4 sucks.
Greetings,
Kathal
The deck's gameplan for drawing Emrakul is just to pitch it to Nahiri, the Harbinger, who is the actual reason the deck runs Emmy in the first place. Anyhow, I get your point.
I haven't played against Mardu Pyromancer for at least 6 months now (as far as I can remember), but I would assume it would be terrible.
You could always play 3 Ravenous Traps in the board and perhaps 3 Nihil Spellbomb in the main to go along with Surgical Extraction. Then you could make a game of it, as the tokens can block the tokens and dinky creatures in Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis fairly profitably. Without the explosive plays, Hogaak Vine is just a fairly bad Aggro deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
As someone who plays this deck, I don't think banning Bridge from Below is enough. I think there has to be multiple bans, like Hogaak AND Altar of Dementia or Hogaak and Bridge from Below. I personally don't think a turn 2/3 8/8 Tramply fellow is all right for Modern. But maybe I'm wrong? Stitcher's Supplier is another card many forget about and is one of this deck's best draws. That and Faithless Looting...
If the deck does turn out to be too good, I actually do wonder if Stitcher's Supplier might be the right ban; practically all of the crazy starts the deck can get rely on that card. The only "crazy start" I can think of that doesn't require it is turn 1 Faithless Looting, drop in two Vengevines, turn 2 cast two 1-mana creatures, which is fairly unlikely to be able to pull off.
When I first put the deck together I didn't have them in my collection. Went through a League and did pretty bad. Put them in after that and it really is night and day.
Sad thing is, Stitcher's Supplier is a great enabler for just play ol' Zombie Tribal. I think a Bridge + Stitcher ban kills the deck though, and leaves Faithless for everyone else to use abuse.
Wizards did us dirty by not putting the new gold standard for grave hate in Horizons. Graveyard decks have ALWAYS been a known problem, they needed to print 'break glass in case of emergency'.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It's really, really sad though. That card is literally worse than at least 5 other current Modern cards and most of us know it (including you of course).
In this current format, here's the cards that I think could NOT even compete with Hogaak - Splinter Twin, Gitaxian Probe, Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Preordain, Dread Return, Birthing Pod. I described to my family how I won a tiny tournament today with Hogaak. I said that basically the deck that I was playing has an upper hand against any other deck.
When I've played Neoform, I know I've done better. But I feel a lot of that is luck and experience with Glass Cannon decks for me. With Hogaak, I've made plenty of errors, but as long as I know how to cast Altar of Dementia on turns 2/3 and the necessary creatures on the other turn of turns 2/3, I know how to win. I've done a lot of good sequencing, but I've noticed some small errors that I have made that could have cost me. With Neoform, I'm 14-2. Hogaak, 12-4 so far.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Ya I believe they will do something about it too, but who really knows with WOTC. It's still my kind of deck. And if it gets nerfed a bit, it could evolve or I can still play that shell in legacy. I agree you can not stay attached to an obvious best deck in modern.
All I’ll say is that I top8’d in the last 3 out of 4 tournaments with Blue Moon, since we got new toys (Force, Shinkole, Charm, Ashiok). Just to give ya’ll some hope. Deck feels super good right now.
I think people are underestimating what Force can do for the format, simply because Hogaak is taking all the attention. Same for Aria of Flame.
Spirits
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-event-2019-06-23
It's getting pretty funny.
Average of 6 pieces of GY hate for the 8 non-hogaak decks too.
If an average of 6 pieces of GY hate per deck still lets a graveyard deck to take up half of a top 16 is considered reasonable adaptation, I'm super curious as to what you consider to be warping.
I dont think anyone is going to argue its not warping, the question to me is if Hogaak is pulling from the Dredge/Phoenix counts as well, and has just killed off that diversity, while becoming 'the' GY deck.
EDIT: Looked over the lists quick, and yes its a warped Hogaak meta. No argument. I really hope thats what the upcoming SCG/GP events look like.
Spirits
When is that in effect in Paper? I certainly hope its the upcoming GP/SCG events so we can just put everything on the table and say 'yep this is it' instead of 'well maybe War of the Spark...well maybe Horizons...well maybe Core 2020...well maybe London Mull!'
Spirits
1st SCG Modern Open post LM is 27/28 July.
1st Modern Magic Fest seems to be Barcelona 26 July.
So uhhh yeah, won't expect anything until end of August for paper magic to impact any decisions. Only online data for pretty much the whole of July.
Bleh. Off by a week! That means we will have to probably endure people saying the Mull will somehow fix it...now I REALLY hope those 2 events are utterly dominated by Hogaak.
Spirits
As for the Splinter Twin example, that makes even less sense, because there is major opportunity cost. The combo requires 10 cards in your deck, which is hardly a minor amount, and all of them--all of them--are mediocre-to-terrible by themselves. That means that you've taking out 10 good cards in favor of cards that are not good in order to try to pull off or threaten the combo. The claim there's barely an opportunity cost is laughable.
To be fair, I am responding to your representation of his argument, so maybe he said it better originally... but as presented, it's a nonsense argument.
It's not going to fix it. Pretty sure the Hogaak deck breaks Bridge from Below beyond what's acceptable in an eternal format. I'd expect Bridge to be gone from the format now.
Meanwhile, a 1/2 that sometimes fetches a 4/4 is banned. Good grief.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)If the deck does turn out to be too good, I actually do wonder if Stitcher's Supplier might be the right ban; practically all of the crazy starts the deck can get rely on that card. The only "crazy start" I can think of that doesn't require it is turn 1 Faithless Looting, drop in two Vengevines, turn 2 cast two 1-mana creatures, which is fairly unlikely to be able to pull off.
Furthermore, Ghostly Prison is rather mediocre, when it comes down on turn 3 and the opp can attack with an 8/8 through it. It only gets relevant, if you follow up with a Sphere, but than again, needing to draw two specific cards to not just die on turn 4 sucks.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Well, I'm probably a little blase about big critters on turn 2-3, but I don't think Hogaak is that big of a problem without the free fuel of Bridge, TBH. Without all of the free tokens from Bridge, you're much more limited in how many times you can cast a Hogaak. Altar is only really broken with Bridge- it's "merely" very good without it. I've been trying out Bridgeless lists with Hogaak and Altar, and they feel pretty fair to play and sit across from. Combo kills become much, much rarer without Bridge. The aggro kills seem to be about 1-2 turns slower, give or take.
The deck's gameplan for drawing Emrakul is just to pitch it to Nahiri, the Harbinger, who is the actual reason the deck runs Emmy in the first place. Anyhow, I get your point.
Ghostly Prison might not be a perfect defense, but Runed Halo could be better against Hogaak.
I haven't played against Mardu Pyromancer for at least 6 months now (as far as I can remember), but I would assume it would be terrible.
You could always play 3 Ravenous Traps in the board and perhaps 3 Nihil Spellbomb in the main to go along with Surgical Extraction. Then you could make a game of it, as the tokens can block the tokens and dinky creatures in Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis fairly profitably. Without the explosive plays, Hogaak Vine is just a fairly bad Aggro deck.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)When I first put the deck together I didn't have them in my collection. Went through a League and did pretty bad. Put them in after that and it really is night and day.
useabuse.Spirits