Gnome I saw you were running lotus cobra. I'm really curious as to why and how that's doing for you. It just seems like this deck wants to drop the bomb t2 whether it be goyf or giest and cobra just doesn't do that..
I had similar thoughts. It looks like he is running it mostly to power out a Baneslayer on turn 3ish or an early elspeth.
It's incredibly important to continuously apply pressure to the Twin deck. If you just let them sit back they can collect all the pieces they need to create and protect their combo. Having a threat-based answer such as Linvala is very powerful because it forces them to deal with her and deal with her now. If you have her in conjunction with other answers, such as a Krosan Grip, it forces them to act when they aren't fully prepared. Spellskite and Ghostly Prison don't apply any pressure, allowing the Twin player to just wait it out until they find the answer.
Linvala is also effective against Melira/Pod, as it doesn't allow them to activate Viscera Seer (or Spellskite). Most builds I've seen run a single Shriekmaw as the answer to that, meaning they can't use the Shriekmaw to answer another threat you have.
Creeping Corrosion is better against affinity, as it actively kills their guys instead of neutering them, but Corrosion is too narrow a card to be worth the sideboard slot. The metagame at the moment is so diverse that you need your answers to be viable in multiple match-ups, not just one. I'll report back about how everything worked out at my PTQ tomorrow.
Gnome I saw you were running lotus cobra. I'm really curious as to why and how that's doing for you. It just seems like this deck wants to drop the bomb t2 whether it be goyf or giest and cobra just doesn't do that..
Cobra turns any fetchland into a Black Lotus. It's not just about powering out a Baneslayer, it's about being able to put out threats of multiple varieties.
Keep in mind that if you dropped a turn 1 BoP or Hierarch the Lotus Cobra doesn't mean you have to choose between playing a Geist/Knight and the Cobra. The Cobra lets you play both. Play the Cobra with the Hierarch and previous land, play a fetch and crack it, tap the land for three mana and drop your Geist/Knight. It also accelerates you into playing and equipping a sword on the same turn, or a threat and an Elspeth.
I originally was not running the Cobra, but the deck became far more explosive and more consistent after I did.
As for Tarmogoyf, there are certainly versions of Bant which need the big guy, but he doesn't fit into the gameplan of this one. At least, he doesn't fit in as well as the assortment of guys which are in there already. Knight, Geist, Elspeth, and Baneslayer are all more effective tools for this build than Goyf was.
Gnome, your list looks very similar to the GW Vengevine/Shaman deck that Caleb Durward posted here. I've been playing a version of that (with some SB changes) to good effect lately, but I've also been exploring a Bant build. Comparing your deck to his, the primary difference is simply opting for Geist of Saint Traft and Mana Leaks instead of the Shaman/Vengevine engine. Do you have any experience with the straight GW build? If so, do you think the Geist/countermagic is superior to having the recursive Vengevine (which do allow for some pretty absurd starts now and then), ability to tutor for bullets and a mana denial plan in the form of Knight/Tec Edge?
I'd like to stick with a Hierarch/Knight/Cobra base, as I've invested in them (my first ever major Constructed investment, despite playing for over a decade), but I'm still trying to figure out what the best build is against the field.
For reference, here is the GW list that I 3-1'd with the other night. I've made a couple changes since, with a second Qasali Pridemage main over Dryad Arbor (unsure of this still), and cutting Linvala, Pridemage and 1 Thorn from the board for Arena, Kitchen Finks and Thrun (the latter because I've struggled greatly vs. Faeries).
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Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
I had both my list and the list you posted built together for a while, because I was torn between them as well. The Vengevine/Shaman deck was incredibly potent, but after a couple of grueling (and I mean that in the strictest sense, it was not a fun day) marathon modern testing sessions I felt that the Bant version was more consistent. The main thing being that there were enough decks that can easily deal with the Shaman in modern that it was hard to reliably set up the Vengevine chain, which was the strongest thing the deck had going for it over the Bant version.
I wouldn't fault anyone for going for the Fauna Shaman deck, but I ended up liking the Bant one more.
Here's a weird list that came in 10th at the last online PTQ. Actually was the best performing "Bant" list at the event, from what I saw. Splashes red to good effect. DISCUSS
@Raalic go ahead, also if there are any questions LMK.
IMO the relevant questions seem to be:
a) The inclusion of 2 drops like Goyf, max out on pride-mages, or go all in on 1-drops
b) The inclusion of red for burn and others.
I think we need to minimize the number toolboxes and toolbox items that we are using. Our game plan is: 1-drop=> big threat=> ride it to win. Ideally we want our deck to be as redundant as possible, and having too many silver bullets can de-rail this plan.
What confuses me most about that list is why the pilgrims over birds when 4 colours are being run.. I don't feel that helix is better than path but the lighting bolt that can double as a win seems good. 4 colours just seems to unstable to be consistent for what this deck wants to do.
@gnome: makes some sense regarding lotus cobra I just don't feel her effect is worth -1 cards.. She's not very aggressive and where we are trying to play exalted she can't swing at the same time as Geist.. Although I think you're right she may improve your game against twin I feel it weakens it against the rest if the field.
@woolven: I'd be very interested in your opinion and reasoning regarding the a. Portion of problems, to me it seems that pridemage is incredibly good in the current meta, but goyf will also tend to be huge against the majority of decks. Just curious what you think should be done.
@woolven: I'd be very interested in your opinion and reasoning regarding the a. Portion of problems, to me it seems that pridemage is incredibly good in the current meta, but goyf will also tend to be huge against the majority of decks. Just curious what you think should be done.
I think the question boils down to: in how many match-up do you want a big guy, vs. how many do you want pride-mage. Pride-mage is better vs. decks you are looking to interact with non-creature permanents. I can see me in the future swapping some Goyfs for Pride-mages. Goyf really shines in match-ups where his large body comes into play. I guess it comes down to what you need more, per-match vs. a given field. You just have to be willing to slaughter a sacred cow by cutting “the best green creature (not names Hermit Druid)”.
Haha win. Yeah I know I'm kinda sad to but not having them affects it. I may proxy them to get a feel for how they play. What mu's did you find goyf better in?
The 2cc slot is very awkward in this deck. My experience has been that dropping Pridemage on turn 3 with a geist or kotr on the board is just stronger than dropping a goyf on that turn because of the immediate benefit of exalted plus having that mana open to use pridemage's nuke next turn if you need to. I dropped goyfs a while ago and haven't looked back.
Okay that was my theory but I hadn't tested it. Goyf just seems contrary to the decks exalted theme and don't allow as much board position or Geist with as much room to attack..
IMO: Goyf shines in Jund and any deck that tries to attrition you out. Jund is the shining example of this. Also he’s your #1 guy on defence. I always like him in the Affinity match-up, but Pride-mage is pretty good here too
I may try to sub them out regardless for Pride-mages and just run the deck for a while and just see how it fares. I may also try cutting the Knights and testing the 8 one drop/ add Mirran Crusader build.
Despite being vociferously mocked by some people at the event before we started ("Have you ever even seen someone play Modern before?" guy, screw you), my deck came in 15th place out of a few hundred. Not what I was hoping for, but not bad for the first run of it. The two rounds it lost had some bad luck involved (of the "t1 Delver, t2 blindflip delver, cast delver, cast delver, t3 blind flip both delvers again" variety, plus a game where I cast the same Knight of the Reliquary four turns in a row to see it immediately bounced by four straight copies of Vapor Snag all while I drew non-relevant cards) but there were some changes I saw were needed for the next PTQ in a couple of weeks.
Geist of Saint Traft was just a monster beating every time he was played. He isn't a major part of the metagame at all (I didn't see any copies of him the entire day outside of the deck I designed), so there are relatively few ways people have of dealing with him. He is worth running four copies.
People also constantly didn't bother to closely read and/or forgot about Eiganjo Castle all day. It ended up being a very strong role player with Geist (and Linvala once).
I haven't tested this yet, but Thrun, the Last Troll seems like a good option to serve as a "fifth" Geist. Seriously, Hexproof is the single best keyword ability ever printed on a creature.
Baneslayer Angel and Elspeth, Knight-Errant were both powerful cards, but I believe it to be prudent to cut a copy of each of them. They're too clunky in the unfortunate incidents where you don't get the super-acceleration to start the game.
The Sword/Gift package worked out even better than I had imagined. The extra W to play Steelshaper's Gift was never a problem, and essentially having three copies of whichever the *best* sword for the situation was ended up being huge. Steelshaper's Gift is a really good card for multiple decks, I can see it being a major factor in the Modern metagame.
The sideboard performed phenomenally. I'll toot my own horn a bit here and say I was really proud of how well I planned out the sideboard. There was no match-up I played where I didn't feel far ahead gameplan-wise in the second and third games.
The only change I would make is adding a Bojuka Bog to the sideboard. There were enough decks where having a singleton Bog to fetch with the Knight would have been a blow-out. I'm not sure yet what I would cut for it, so for the moment it's going to be the third Krosan Grip.
Stony Silence was an all-star against Affinity decks. If you played that card you were going to win. The deck just crumbles if it can't abuse the power of Cranial Plating and Arcbound Ravager. The games I saw people playing Creeping Corrosion, the Silence would have even been better than that despite costing 2 less. Welding Jar was tech for some decks, plus the UB versions of affinity were running Disciple of the Vault for the blowout and Tezzeret to quickly recover after a boardsweep. Stony Silence would have (and in my games, did) remain on the board as a major problem for them in ways they weren't prepared for.
Faith's Shield also performed just as well as I hoped it would. It was excellent against the removal packages of most decks and it ended up being excellent in the one game someone stormed off on me.
I sideboarded Mana Leak out a lot and found myself wanting some copies of Spell Pierce a few times, but I need more testing and think-tank time to evaluate what that means. Mana Leak is super important some times, but pretty bad others.
If I were to play again today, this would be my list:
Edit: Also, something else I noticed was how incredibly heavily played Spell Snare was. This just reinforces my thoughts about Tarmogoyf, Pridemage, and the various hatebears not being the correct choice for this build in this metagame.
@Gnome: Thanks so much for that breakdown. 15th is very respectable! I think this deck will just get stronger and stronger with more input like this. How did Lotus Cobra do for you in the 2 slot?
Agree with Raalic! Thanks for the input! How was Baneslayer in your games? She seems good but with so little things for them to remove seem like she would be the target every time she was resolved. Curious there! And why the singleton Dismember instead of a 4 path to exile?
Agree with Raalic! Thanks for the input! How was Baneslayer in your games? She seems good but with so little things for them to remove seem like she would be the target every time she was resolved. Curious there! And why the singleton Dismember instead of a 4 path to exile?
There are times when Path to Exile's drawback is pretty large. I don't like only having Path as a removal spell. The 3:1 ratio with a fourth Path in the board felt like the right arrangement. Remember, between Cobra and Birds you can pay for the black now and then, so it is certainly not going to always cost you four life to play.
Baneslayer was sideboarded out against control decks, but was incredibly good against aggressive decks. Having a turn 3 or 4 Baneslayer let you spend your first few turns trying to ramp up. Lifelink (and first strike) were huge in getting you back in the game and eventually insurmountably ahead.
Five power was also nice in skirting above Vedalken Shackles.
@Gnome: Thanks so much for that breakdown. 15th is very respectable! I think this deck will just get stronger and stronger with more input like this. How did Lotus Cobra do for you in the 2 slot?
Lotus Cobra was how you played unfair games with this deck. It was pretty much essential. It lets you play a large assortment of threats while still having mana open for disruption/answers to your opponent's actions. I don't think this deck (MY version anyway) could exist without it. In Modern you need to be able to do unfair things, or you're just not going to win.
So, how do you beat Martyr with this? The only time I've been able to was by timing them out but that's not exactly reliable. Martyr is, by far, my most hated deck in modern, regardless of what I'm playing and everyone on MTGO plays it...it seems like with this deck, it just stalls out until they eventually overwhelm you.
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Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
So, how do you beat Martyr with this? The only time I've been able to was by timing them out but that's not exactly reliable. Martyr is, by far, my most hated deck in modern, regardless of what I'm playing and everyone on MTGO plays it...it seems like with this deck, it just stalls out until they eventually overwhelm you.
Martyr Proc is a very difficult matchup, and I am still looking for good strategies to use against it for the primer.. I have found Surgical Extraction to be moderately effective in the sideboard, plucking out all of their Martyrs as soon as they crack one. Sadly, they still gain an advantage just using it once. The deck is well under 50% in that matchup for me right now. If it becomes more widespread in the PTQ circuit, we may have to consider red for Stigma Lasher or Leyline of Punishment..
So, how do you beat Martyr with this? The only time I've been able to was by timing them out but that's not exactly reliable. Martyr is, by far, my most hated deck in modern, regardless of what I'm playing and everyone on MTGO plays it...it seems like with this deck, it just stalls out until they eventually overwhelm you.
I don't play Modern online, so I didn't realize it was so heavily played there. There was literally not a single Martyr deck at PTQ: Somerville yesterday.
I'll be honest, I didn't even give the deck a thought. It loses so hard to Melira Pod and Twin that I figured it wasn't a legitimate deck.
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I had similar thoughts. It looks like he is running it mostly to power out a Baneslayer on turn 3ish or an early elspeth.
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Linvala is also effective against Melira/Pod, as it doesn't allow them to activate Viscera Seer (or Spellskite). Most builds I've seen run a single Shriekmaw as the answer to that, meaning they can't use the Shriekmaw to answer another threat you have.
Creeping Corrosion is better against affinity, as it actively kills their guys instead of neutering them, but Corrosion is too narrow a card to be worth the sideboard slot. The metagame at the moment is so diverse that you need your answers to be viable in multiple match-ups, not just one. I'll report back about how everything worked out at my PTQ tomorrow.
Cobra turns any fetchland into a Black Lotus. It's not just about powering out a Baneslayer, it's about being able to put out threats of multiple varieties.
Keep in mind that if you dropped a turn 1 BoP or Hierarch the Lotus Cobra doesn't mean you have to choose between playing a Geist/Knight and the Cobra. The Cobra lets you play both. Play the Cobra with the Hierarch and previous land, play a fetch and crack it, tap the land for three mana and drop your Geist/Knight. It also accelerates you into playing and equipping a sword on the same turn, or a threat and an Elspeth.
I originally was not running the Cobra, but the deck became far more explosive and more consistent after I did.
As for Tarmogoyf, there are certainly versions of Bant which need the big guy, but he doesn't fit into the gameplan of this one. At least, he doesn't fit in as well as the assortment of guys which are in there already. Knight, Geist, Elspeth, and Baneslayer are all more effective tools for this build than Goyf was.
I'd like to stick with a Hierarch/Knight/Cobra base, as I've invested in them (my first ever major Constructed investment, despite playing for over a decade), but I'm still trying to figure out what the best build is against the field.
For reference, here is the GW list that I 3-1'd with the other night. I've made a couple changes since, with a second Qasali Pridemage main over Dryad Arbor (unsure of this still), and cutting Linvala, Pridemage and 1 Thorn from the board for Arena, Kitchen Finks and Thrun (the latter because I've struggled greatly vs. Faeries).
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
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I wouldn't fault anyone for going for the Fauna Shaman deck, but I ended up liking the Bant one more.
1 Breeding Pool
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Steam Vents
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Stomping Ground
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Brave the Elements
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Harm's Way
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mana Leak
1 Path to Exile
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Volcanic Fallout
CG
IMO the relevant questions seem to be:
a) The inclusion of 2 drops like Goyf, max out on pride-mages, or go all in on 1-drops
b) The inclusion of red for burn and others.
I think we need to minimize the number toolboxes and toolbox items that we are using. Our game plan is: 1-drop=> big threat=> ride it to win. Ideally we want our deck to be as redundant as possible, and having too many silver bullets can de-rail this plan.
Thoughts?
@gnome: makes some sense regarding lotus cobra I just don't feel her effect is worth -1 cards.. She's not very aggressive and where we are trying to play exalted she can't swing at the same time as Geist.. Although I think you're right she may improve your game against twin I feel it weakens it against the rest if the field.
@woolven: I'd be very interested in your opinion and reasoning regarding the a. Portion of problems, to me it seems that pridemage is incredibly good in the current meta, but goyf will also tend to be huge against the majority of decks. Just curious what you think should be done.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
I think the question boils down to: in how many match-up do you want a big guy, vs. how many do you want pride-mage. Pride-mage is better vs. decks you are looking to interact with non-creature permanents. I can see me in the future swapping some Goyfs for Pride-mages. Goyf really shines in match-ups where his large body comes into play. I guess it comes down to what you need more, per-match vs. a given field. You just have to be willing to slaughter a sacred cow by cutting “the best green creature (not names Hermit Druid)”.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
CG
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
I may try to sub them out regardless for Pride-mages and just run the deck for a while and just see how it fares. I may also try cutting the Knights and testing the 8 one drop/ add Mirran Crusader build.
Geist of Saint Traft was just a monster beating every time he was played. He isn't a major part of the metagame at all (I didn't see any copies of him the entire day outside of the deck I designed), so there are relatively few ways people have of dealing with him. He is worth running four copies.
People also constantly didn't bother to closely read and/or forgot about Eiganjo Castle all day. It ended up being a very strong role player with Geist (and Linvala once).
I haven't tested this yet, but Thrun, the Last Troll seems like a good option to serve as a "fifth" Geist. Seriously, Hexproof is the single best keyword ability ever printed on a creature.
Baneslayer Angel and Elspeth, Knight-Errant were both powerful cards, but I believe it to be prudent to cut a copy of each of them. They're too clunky in the unfortunate incidents where you don't get the super-acceleration to start the game.
The Sword/Gift package worked out even better than I had imagined. The extra W to play Steelshaper's Gift was never a problem, and essentially having three copies of whichever the *best* sword for the situation was ended up being huge. Steelshaper's Gift is a really good card for multiple decks, I can see it being a major factor in the Modern metagame.
The sideboard performed phenomenally. I'll toot my own horn a bit here and say I was really proud of how well I planned out the sideboard. There was no match-up I played where I didn't feel far ahead gameplan-wise in the second and third games.
The only change I would make is adding a Bojuka Bog to the sideboard. There were enough decks where having a singleton Bog to fetch with the Knight would have been a blow-out. I'm not sure yet what I would cut for it, so for the moment it's going to be the third Krosan Grip.
Stony Silence was an all-star against Affinity decks. If you played that card you were going to win. The deck just crumbles if it can't abuse the power of Cranial Plating and Arcbound Ravager. The games I saw people playing Creeping Corrosion, the Silence would have even been better than that despite costing 2 less. Welding Jar was tech for some decks, plus the UB versions of affinity were running Disciple of the Vault for the blowout and Tezzeret to quickly recover after a boardsweep. Stony Silence would have (and in my games, did) remain on the board as a major problem for them in ways they weren't prepared for.
Faith's Shield also performed just as well as I hoped it would. It was excellent against the removal packages of most decks and it ended up being excellent in the one game someone stormed off on me.
I sideboarded Mana Leak out a lot and found myself wanting some copies of Spell Pierce a few times, but I need more testing and think-tank time to evaluate what that means. Mana Leak is super important some times, but pretty bad others.
If I were to play again today, this would be my list:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Baneslayer Angel
Planeswalkers
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Spells
4 Mana Leak
3 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
2 Steelshaper's Gift
Aritfacts
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Razorverge Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Krosan Grip
3 Faith's Shield
1 Arena
1 Path to Exile
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Bojuka Bog
Edit: Also, something else I noticed was how incredibly heavily played Spell Snare was. This just reinforces my thoughts about Tarmogoyf, Pridemage, and the various hatebears not being the correct choice for this build in this metagame.
CG
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
There are times when Path to Exile's drawback is pretty large. I don't like only having Path as a removal spell. The 3:1 ratio with a fourth Path in the board felt like the right arrangement. Remember, between Cobra and Birds you can pay for the black now and then, so it is certainly not going to always cost you four life to play.
Baneslayer was sideboarded out against control decks, but was incredibly good against aggressive decks. Having a turn 3 or 4 Baneslayer let you spend your first few turns trying to ramp up. Lifelink (and first strike) were huge in getting you back in the game and eventually insurmountably ahead.
Five power was also nice in skirting above Vedalken Shackles.
Lotus Cobra was how you played unfair games with this deck. It was pretty much essential. It lets you play a large assortment of threats while still having mana open for disruption/answers to your opponent's actions. I don't think this deck (MY version anyway) could exist without it. In Modern you need to be able to do unfair things, or you're just not going to win.
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Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
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Martyr Proc is a very difficult matchup, and I am still looking for good strategies to use against it for the primer.. I have found Surgical Extraction to be moderately effective in the sideboard, plucking out all of their Martyrs as soon as they crack one. Sadly, they still gain an advantage just using it once. The deck is well under 50% in that matchup for me right now. If it becomes more widespread in the PTQ circuit, we may have to consider red for Stigma Lasher or Leyline of Punishment..
CG
I don't play Modern online, so I didn't realize it was so heavily played there. There was literally not a single Martyr deck at PTQ: Somerville yesterday.
I'll be honest, I didn't even give the deck a thought. It loses so hard to Melira Pod and Twin that I figured it wasn't a legitimate deck.