That looks a lot like the Exalted Worship Bant lists going around. Nice take on it, although I personally prefer fewer Hexproof guys (ditch Invisible Stalker; he hits and blocks like a wuss without pump). Maybe try some fatties like Mirran Crusader, more Elspeths, more equipment, or more protection (like Spell Pierce).
I played a PTQ in Portland this weekend and did relatively well. I felt that this deck is very well positioned toward the meta. I went 4-3 with a list that looked like this.
G2 I go bird, goyf with path back up, then Kitchen Finks. He goes BBE into Bob. I threads his bob and swing leathal.
G3 he kept a bad hand and got stuck at 2 with a bolt for my t1 dork, but got to far behind to catch up
1-0
Cawblade
This was against my buddy that i had tested against last night to a 7-2 win percentage so I felt pretty confident with my MU.
G1 I mullied to 5 and kept, but a few counters put me down fast.
-1 Batterskull
+1 Thrun, the Last Troll
G2 I kept with 7, and played no t1 dork though, and he had enough answers to control me till late game when he resolved a Batterskull and took me out
I think this MU is still good you just have to have a t1 dork other wise they with counter way to effectively and late game you are just to fare behind unless they are at a low life.
1-1
A Vengevine Looting deck
G1 He just didnt go off fast enough and a goyf and geist took him out.
-3 Vendilion Clique
+3 Kitchen Finks
I don't remember what else I took out but i put in 2 wrath as well.
G2 lost to a t1 Looting dropping 2 Vengevine. I day'd after blocking and pathing a vengevine but a bloodbraid quickly sealed my doom.
G3 I went down to one life but resolved a batterskull and had a lucky BBE go into Kird Ape and was able to swing next turn into a field of 2 BBE 2 Kird Ape he let it thought draw pass. Again swing he doubled up and killed it so i suited up a goyf and game was over next turn.
2-1
4 colour Pod/Twin
This was a weird game as I lost G1 for not being at the table the moment they said to begin (I had to pee and last game had gone to turns) apparently they have changed the rules to a 0 min tolerance at top events. I went 2-1 ill update this later
3-1
Storm
G1 was a joke I mullied to 4 and just watched
G2 I misplayed my clique and manaleak and just tossed the game
3-2
Jund
G1 I again lost g1 of the backs of 2 Liliana and a goyf
G2 i stole his Bob late in the game and was able to shut him out
G3 I tried the same thing but he was ready with a seal of primodium. He drew poorly resolving another bob against my field of goyf and geist and i was able to pound it out.
4-2
Cawblade
G1 t1 manadork and he just couldnt catch up.
G2 he had enough removal to finally take me out with 3 life left.
G3 I made many play mistakes after focusing on whether i would be able to make T8 or not and realizing i couldn't just played looser and lot a war of attrition with him at 1 I died on t5:(
4-3
I felt this deck was very well versed toward the current meta, but rather weak vs. control. It seemed to do okay against aggro, but I did not face a affinity deck. I will be continuing to try to build this, as well as hopefully updating the remaining MU's (that i covered lightly)
I cut elspeth last moment and was very glad I did, she just doesn't seem to do enough in the current meta and swords are far better.
My biggest concern was my SB i liked
Kitchen Finks
Wrath
Krosan Grip
Threads
Relic
The rest seem mediocre at best against the MU I meant for them to be used against
Corrosion i havent played with so i have no opinion on it.
Stoneforge Mystic does the same, but we don't see it not getting played in legacy.
Time of Need is only "cute" if you try and make it do to much. Time of Need allows you to have answers and push on threats without taking up to much space in your deck. It also allows you to run better sb hate cards (Ancient Grudge vs Kataki, Linvala vs PtE, etc) without taking up your entire sb.
My creature base is very robust relying more on Rhox War Monk than any of the legendaries.
Kessig Wolf Run (and companion Stomping Ground) with the hexproof guys has become a real break-through for this deck. Guaranteeing your damage gets through along with Sword triggers has been the game finishing counter-measure the deck needed to get into the next level. I highly recommend people try this out.
Cutting the more expensive cards, along with play-testing data revealing just how much more effectively the deck functions with a turn 1 mana creature, has led me to cut the Lotus Cobras and shore up the 1-slot with a full playset of Birds and a 9th guy in Avacyn's Pilgrim. This has the added benefit of blanking all opponent's copies of Spell Snare, a card which is seeing a lot of play.
The extra "oomph" of Sword of War and Peace's damage dealing against controllish decks has pushed it into the mainboard over Ice and Fire (which stands ready to hop in against Faeries and Delver decks).
Worship has made the match-up against Affinity good enough that Stony Silence isn't needed, though I may want to add an extra copy of Worship in the sideboard to nail that home.
Bojuka Bog and Surgical Extraction are key for defeating Melira-Pod and Dredge/Loam decks. Expect to see a lot of these after the results of GP: Lincoln. Mortarpod also helps against Pod, working to shut down their sacrifice outlet.
Does anyone have any tech for dealing with UW and UR Tron decks? Thalia is helpful, but I'm still looking for something more. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
As it stands following GP: Lincoln, this deck is well-positioned in the meta. It is very effective against both the aggro and combo decks, and so long as the control decks continue to not use anti-regeneration sweeps like Wrath of God, effective against control.
I cut elspeth last moment and was very glad I did, she just doesn't seem to do enough in the current meta and swords are far better.
Elspeth is great against Tron and Jund, two decks which make up at least 40% of the metagame, and she is good against almost everything else. I can see cutting her down to 3, but playing zero is a mistake.
geist seems to be an auto include thus the name of the thread....however the more I play with mirran crusader the more I love him.
Whether you play Elspeth or the swords package he is a house just like Geist. They both put our opponents on very short clocks and the more I think he should be an auto include in every bant build.
I have relatively no problem with tron. gaddock teeg and thalia our my hate bears of choice. With my Time of need package I can get them fairly easy. Tron is not a control deck but more a stall and ramp deck. Taxing them or not allowing them to resolves their spells while continuing to apply pressure gives us the advantage.
My updated list. Crusader and Geist provide for a powerful 1,2 punch. I think they should be auto includes. Hoping that my legend package along with better card draw will combat my lack of counters as other bant builds. Testing will show.
Elspeth is great against Tron and Jund, two decks which make up at least 40% of the metagame, and she is good against almost everything else. I can see cutting her down to 3, but playing zero is a mistake.
My MU are the highest against those decks. I was 2-0 against Jund in a competative setting there deck just doesn't do well against ours and as long as you have a t1 dork plus t2 threat its realllyyyy hard to lose to tron. I have been almost undefeated in those MU.
Sword is just better and more relevant I was never happy to see an Elspeth in hand, she is very good, but i just dont think she fit my build.
My problem with Crusader is that it dies to red removal, which is a staple for a lot of the decks. There's too many Lightning Bolts running around.
If they are bolting your Crusader they are leaving your dorks alone...along with all your other threats. Density and quality are what we have. KotR is just 2 slow and lacks any evasive measures. He is just 2 slow for me.
My MU are the highest against those decks. I was 2-0 against Jund in a competative setting there deck just doesn't do well against ours and as long as you have a t1 dork plus t2 threat its realllyyyy hard to lose to tron. I have been almost undefeated in those MU.
Sword is just better and more relevant I was never happy to see an Elspeth in hand, she is very good, but i just dont think she fit my build.
Not to diminish your accomplishment, but the two matches you describe make it sound like the Jund players were unlucky or not very good. Obviously it is your deck and you should do what you want, but in my experience of upwards of 40 playtest matches Jund is tough if you're not packing hexproof guys. Elspeth is what made that match good.
If the Tron players start going along with the LSV style, you'll also have trouble dealing with Wrath of God/Day of Judgment gift packages. Elspeth lets you have resilience for that.
I also don't understand the 1 Knight of the Reliquary. I think he's one of the best creatures ever printed and running four lets you get a lot of utility out of various lands. Having just 1 seems a little too arbitrary.
Then again, my metagame might be way different than yours. Tarmogoyf is pretty bad in mine because of the number of Spellsnares people are packing.
If they are bolting your Crusader they are leaving your dorks alone...along with all your other threats. Density and quality are what we have. KotR is just 2 slow and lacks any evasive measures. He is just 2 slow for me.
Knight isn't too slow for Legacy, how are you finding it too slow for Modern? With 8 fetches in your deck it's immediately a large threat on turn 2 (frequently out of bolt range) and allows you to get immense value out of different kinds of lands.
It costs the same as Mirran Crusader, frequently hits just as hard, and gives you immense versatility. Can you explain what you mean by too slow? I'm not following.
And if they're bolting your Mirran Crusader it's not that they're leaving your other threats alone, it's that you don't have other threats at the moment. You can't play out 3 cost threats faster than they can use 1 cost removal on them. You're losing the mana value war that way. Mirran Crusader also hits the bin along with all your mana creatures when your opponent Whipflares, something which is being played in Affinity and some red tron variants. The card is strong, no doubt, but it seems too fragile.
Not to diminish your accomplishment, but the two matches you describe make it sound like the Jund players were unlucky or not very good. Obviously it is your deck and you should do what you want, but in my experience of upwards of 40 playtest matches Jund is tough if you're not packing hexproof guys. Elspeth is what made that match good.
If the Tron players start going along with the LSV style, you'll also have trouble dealing with Wrath of God/Day of Judgment gift packages. Elspeth lets you have resilience for that.
I also don't understand the 1 Knight of the Reliquary. I think he's one of the best creatures ever printed and running four lets you get a lot of utility out of various lands. Having just 1 seems a little too arbitrary.
Then again, my metagame might be way different than yours. Tarmogoyf is pretty bad in mine because of the number of Spellsnares people are packing.
As always luck can play a part in any MU, but Jund is really not a complicated deck to play and there where no major play mistakes that the spectators commented on. Either way you're free to you're opinion.
If the meta changes, she may be better but as the meta stands she is mediocre at best. She's bad against Caw, Affinity,Faeries, Combo. Yeah she has her MU but swords are very versatile and have the ability to put you back in a game at any point where as elspeth is very bad at shoring up a MU in this meta as so much of it is flying.
I just had him die to many times to a bolt, it was a last minute change, i had two and dropped one for thrun who was a champ in almost every MU he hit. Knight also was not very aggressive, for him to be good he needs to look for stuff and at least in my deck I want to drop a fatty and swing he just seemed to vulnerable and slow. No doubt he is a good creature though.
Yeah i had it spell snared many a time, but when i resolved him in those MU he was godly. He is so incredibly solid that they have to worry about him when you have other threats on the board. Idk if you've played with him at all, I know you used cobra for a while, but she just doesn't put games away she enables other cards to and it is entirely different. I know he's a ton though and i only borrowed the ones i used so hey.
I'm not saying Elspeth is better than Swords, by the way, I'm saying they're great together and the deck has room for it. Elspeth really helps the swords by giving them something to be wielded by and giving flying for them to connect for their triggers.
I have relatively no problem with tron. gaddock teeg and thalia our my hate bears of choice. With my Time of need package I can get them fairly easy. Tron is not a control deck but more a stall and ramp deck. Taxing them or not allowing them to resolves their spells while continuing to apply pressure gives us the advantage.
As a U/W Tron player I can say for a fact that most of the time I am favored in the Bant matchup. I actually play both of these decks and although I love my Bant deck it's a pretty rough matchup for Bant.
Gaddock Teeg actually doesn't actually do all that much since the current rendition of Tron runs the uncounterable Eldrazi package with Eye of Ugin. This doesn't even go into accounting for randomly drawing an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or a Iona, Shield of Emeria and just hard casting it.
Most U/W Tron decks are going to be packing the Unburial Rites package because it's easy to pilot and very powerful. It's important that Bant runs Knight of the Reliquary because it can tutor for land destruction to keep them from assembling Tron as well as exile Tron's graveyard - all at instant speed.
wdlssm - That was my take on the match-up as well. I'm wracking my mind for some kind of amazing tech, but I can't find it. The answer might be just to kill them as fast as possible and have a counter for the Unburial Rites if they go that route.
Knight isn't too slow for Legacy, how are you finding it too slow for Modern? With 8 fetches in your deck it's immediately a large threat on turn 2 (frequently out of bolt range) and allows you to get immense value out of different kinds of lands.
I played with her in standard and when I built my first bants decks she was in there along with an appropriate mana base (fetches, shocks, multi-purpose) but she was constantly chumped blocked. Admittedly, part of my mistake may not have been playing 4 Elspeths with her as well.
It costs the same as Mirran Crusader, frequently hits just as hard, and gives you immense versatility. Can you explain what you mean by too slow? I'm not following.
And if they're bolting your Mirran Crusader it's not that they're leaving your other threats alone, it's that you don't have other threats at the moment. You can't play out 3 cost threats faster than they can use 1 cost removal on them. You're losing the mana value war that way. Mirran Crusader also hits the bin along with all your mana creatures when your opponent Whipflares, something which is being played in Affinity and some red tron variants. The card is strong, no doubt, but it seems too fragile.
Also, I do not and have not played legacy but isn't modern considered faster because of the whole no free counters thing? My thing is that the reason geist is so good is because it beats hard (and has the whole hexproof amaziness) . Now instead of KoTR I have decided I wanted more explosion. Bolt him? fine, that means you arent bolting me and I have many more threats; not to mention the sickness that develops with the swords. Maybe the question comes down to swords vs Elspeth as to the need of KoTR
Aggro decks playing bolt means I'm not taking that to the face.
I've also been able to change my mana base. I am no longer suicidal. I run 2 shocks and 4 fetches along with 2 canopies. I am using the quick lands which helps my game with burn/rakdos decks.
Crusader also just destroys 2 archtypes...mono black and mono green (not that they are played at all but segments in the form of splashes are made in various decks).
This along with the use of swords and exalted gives Crusader the edge to me.
Knight is good but I think has to be in a slightly different build than mine to be effective. Just remember, in the mirror my crusader will take your 6/6 Knight on
As a U/W Tron player I can say for a fact that most of the time I am favored in the Bant matchup. I actually play both of these decks and although I love my Bant deck it's a pretty rough matchup for Bant.
Gaddock Teeg actually doesn't actually do all that much since the current rendition of Tron runs the uncounterable Eldrazi package with Eye of Ugin. This doesn't even go into accounting for randomly drawing an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or a Iona, Shield of Emeria and just hard casting it.
Doesn't do anything?? Stops your wrath effects including marshall coup, stops your gifts...forces your attention to remove him allowing you to swing in with you boys. If that isn't a problem then I do not know what is considering he doesn't even stop creatures not to mention uncounterable, I win cards.
I am running 3 tectonic edges maindeck and have no problem casting my colored spells.
Most U/W Tron decks are going to be packing the Unburial Rites package because it's easy to pilot and very powerful. It's important that Bant runs Knight of the Reliquary because it can tutor for land destruction to keep them from assembling Tron as well as exile Tron's graveyard - all at instant speed.
Just calling it as I see it.
Like I said...Gaddock teeg takes care of that combo as well...all the while allowing me to swing with my equipped Crusader for 10 or so. I'm not taking your graveyard, I'm going for your life.
Like I said...Gaddock teeg takes care of that combo as well...all the while allowing me to swing with my equipped Crusader for 10 or so. I'm not taking your graveyard, I'm going for your life.
Gaddock Teeg doesn't stop the Eye of Ugin win condition. Instant speed tutoring Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre is a real move and it's regularly online by turn 5+.
Although Tron is running the Gifts Ungiven + Unburial Rites combo doesn't mean it's the only way they can win.
Running more than one land destruction is a great option and the fact that you're running three is great. I do still believe running Knight of the Reliquary is an overall better answer in other Bant builds though.
The best way to beat Tron is to keep them off of their Tron lands, counter their Gifts Ungiven, and race them. Tron usually wins or has their win condition on the field on turn 5-7, turn 4 on a nuts hand and no disruption.
Mirran Crusader is dead to all of the best removal in the format (red and white), but he also swings through virtually every single blocker in the format. Because this is an aggressive strategy, I run him as a 2-of for the latter. There is no question I'd rather have Geist on the board in most situations. Even Troll Ascetic is proving to be a champ for me, lately. Hexproof is the most insane keyword ever printed. Hexproof AND regen is just silly.
Has anyone tested Bribery against tron again? Would have thought it would be good since if they don't have the remand/wrath effect you probably just win off of it.
Has anyone tested Bribery against tron again? Would have thought it would be good since if they don't have the remand/wrath effect you probably just win off of it.
Actually, in the spirit of having all sideboard cards be versatile, I think Telemin Performance is better than Bribery. Performance has the downside of maybe "only" grabbing a Wurmcoil Engine, but all the other options (Emrakul, Elesh Norn, and Iona) are game-breaking.
Performance is also a sideboard card against Storm decks and Hive Mind decks where it just mills out their library.
Actually, in the spirit of having all sideboard cards be versatile, I think Telemin Performance is better than Bribery. Performance has the downside of maybe "only" grabbing a Wurmcoil Engine, but all the other options (Emrakul, Elesh Norn, and Iona) are game-breaking.
Performance is also a sideboard card against Storm decks and Hive Mind decks where it just mills out their library.
Best thing about Performance is the fact that it's worth nothing. Let alone the fact that it can hit multiple decks.
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I love Moorland Haunt and the manlands; they keep your Worship lock going through a Wrath of God.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Spells(15):
4 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
2 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Batterskull
1 Breeding Pool
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Plains
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Krosan Grip
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Wrath of God
I started against Jund
2-1
G1 I lost pretty handily after a t1 Thoughtseize my hand was reduced to lands and mana dorks. A t2 Goyf got him there
Sb:
+3 Kitchen Finks
+2 Threads of Disloyalty
-3 Vendilion Clique
G2 I go bird, goyf with path back up, then Kitchen Finks. He goes BBE into Bob. I threads his bob and swing leathal.
G3 he kept a bad hand and got stuck at 2 with a bolt for my t1 dork, but got to far behind to catch up
1-0
Cawblade
This was against my buddy that i had tested against last night to a 7-2 win percentage so I felt pretty confident with my MU.
G1 I mullied to 5 and kept, but a few counters put me down fast.
-1 Batterskull
+1 Thrun, the Last Troll
G2 I kept with 7, and played no t1 dork though, and he had enough answers to control me till late game when he resolved a Batterskull and took me out
I think this MU is still good you just have to have a t1 dork other wise they with counter way to effectively and late game you are just to fare behind unless they are at a low life.
1-1
A Vengevine Looting deck
G1 He just didnt go off fast enough and a goyf and geist took him out.
-3 Vendilion Clique
+3 Kitchen Finks
I don't remember what else I took out but i put in 2 wrath as well.
G2 lost to a t1 Looting dropping 2 Vengevine. I day'd after blocking and pathing a vengevine but a bloodbraid quickly sealed my doom.
G3 I went down to one life but resolved a batterskull and had a lucky BBE go into Kird Ape and was able to swing next turn into a field of 2 BBE 2 Kird Ape he let it thought draw pass. Again swing he doubled up and killed it so i suited up a goyf and game was over next turn.
2-1
4 colour Pod/Twin
This was a weird game as I lost G1 for not being at the table the moment they said to begin (I had to pee and last game had gone to turns) apparently they have changed the rules to a 0 min tolerance at top events. I went 2-1 ill update this later
3-1
Storm
G1 was a joke I mullied to 4 and just watched
G2 I misplayed my clique and manaleak and just tossed the game
3-2
Jund
G1 I again lost g1 of the backs of 2 Liliana and a goyf
G2 i stole his Bob late in the game and was able to shut him out
G3 I tried the same thing but he was ready with a seal of primodium. He drew poorly resolving another bob against my field of goyf and geist and i was able to pound it out.
4-2
Cawblade
G1 t1 manadork and he just couldnt catch up.
G2 he had enough removal to finally take me out with 3 life left.
G3 I made many play mistakes after focusing on whether i would be able to make T8 or not and realizing i couldn't just played looser and lot a war of attrition with him at 1 I died on t5:(
4-3
I felt this deck was very well versed toward the current meta, but rather weak vs. control. It seemed to do okay against aggro, but I did not face a affinity deck. I will be continuing to try to build this, as well as hopefully updating the remaining MU's (that i covered lightly)
I cut elspeth last moment and was very glad I did, she just doesn't seem to do enough in the current meta and swords are far better.
My biggest concern was my SB i liked
Kitchen Finks
Wrath
Krosan Grip
Threads
Relic
The rest seem mediocre at best against the MU I meant for them to be used against
Corrosion i havent played with so i have no opinion on it.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
Time of Need is only "cute" if you try and make it do to much. Time of Need allows you to have answers and push on threats without taking up to much space in your deck. It also allows you to run better sb hate cards (Ancient Grudge vs Kataki, Linvala vs PtE, etc) without taking up your entire sb.
My creature base is very robust relying more on Rhox War Monk than any of the legendaries.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Troll Ascetic
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Thrun the Last Troll
Equipment (3):
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
Enchantments (2):
2 Worship
Spells (8):
2 Steelshaper's Gift
3 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
3 Elspeth Knight-Errant
Lands (23):
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Treetop Village
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
3 Razorverge Thicket
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Krosan Grip
1 Arena
1 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Mortarpod
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Surgical Extraction
Kessig Wolf Run (and companion Stomping Ground) with the hexproof guys has become a real break-through for this deck. Guaranteeing your damage gets through along with Sword triggers has been the game finishing counter-measure the deck needed to get into the next level. I highly recommend people try this out.
Cutting the more expensive cards, along with play-testing data revealing just how much more effectively the deck functions with a turn 1 mana creature, has led me to cut the Lotus Cobras and shore up the 1-slot with a full playset of Birds and a 9th guy in Avacyn's Pilgrim. This has the added benefit of blanking all opponent's copies of Spell Snare, a card which is seeing a lot of play.
The extra "oomph" of Sword of War and Peace's damage dealing against controllish decks has pushed it into the mainboard over Ice and Fire (which stands ready to hop in against Faeries and Delver decks).
Worship has made the match-up against Affinity good enough that Stony Silence isn't needed, though I may want to add an extra copy of Worship in the sideboard to nail that home.
Bojuka Bog and Surgical Extraction are key for defeating Melira-Pod and Dredge/Loam decks. Expect to see a lot of these after the results of GP: Lincoln. Mortarpod also helps against Pod, working to shut down their sacrifice outlet.
Does anyone have any tech for dealing with UW and UR Tron decks? Thalia is helpful, but I'm still looking for something more. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
As it stands following GP: Lincoln, this deck is well-positioned in the meta. It is very effective against both the aggro and combo decks, and so long as the control decks continue to not use anti-regeneration sweeps like Wrath of God, effective against control.
I can't wait until my next PTQ on the 4th.
Elspeth is great against Tron and Jund, two decks which make up at least 40% of the metagame, and she is good against almost everything else. I can see cutting her down to 3, but playing zero is a mistake.
Whether you play Elspeth or the swords package he is a house just like Geist. They both put our opponents on very short clocks and the more I think he should be an auto include in every bant build.
I have relatively no problem with tron. gaddock teeg and thalia our my hate bears of choice. With my Time of need package I can get them fairly easy. Tron is not a control deck but more a stall and ramp deck. Taxing them or not allowing them to resolves their spells while continuing to apply pressure gives us the advantage.
My updated list. Crusader and Geist provide for a powerful 1,2 punch. I think they should be auto includes. Hoping that my legend package along with better card draw will combat my lack of counters as other bant builds. Testing will show.
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
Beaters
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Geist of Saint Graft
3 Rhox War Monk
1 wilt-leaf liege
Legendary Creatures
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Rafiq of the Many
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Steelshaper's gift
2 Time of Need
3 sleight of hand
1 Sword of war and peace
1 Sword of feast and famine
1 sword of fire and ice
Land
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
4 Misty rainforest
4 razorverge thicket
2 seachrome coast
3 tectonic edge
2 horizon canopy
2 treetop village
1 island
1 plains
1 forest
1 Kataki, war's wage
1 gaddock teeg
1 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 linvala, keeper of silence
2 krosan grip
2 spell pierce
3 meddling mage
1 wilt-leaf liege
1 obstinate baloth
1 etherswron cannonist
My MU are the highest against those decks. I was 2-0 against Jund in a competative setting there deck just doesn't do well against ours and as long as you have a t1 dork plus t2 threat its realllyyyy hard to lose to tron. I have been almost undefeated in those MU.
Sword is just better and more relevant I was never happy to see an Elspeth in hand, she is very good, but i just dont think she fit my build.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
If they are bolting your Crusader they are leaving your dorks alone...along with all your other threats. Density and quality are what we have. KotR is just 2 slow and lacks any evasive measures. He is just 2 slow for me.
Not to diminish your accomplishment, but the two matches you describe make it sound like the Jund players were unlucky or not very good. Obviously it is your deck and you should do what you want, but in my experience of upwards of 40 playtest matches Jund is tough if you're not packing hexproof guys. Elspeth is what made that match good.
If the Tron players start going along with the LSV style, you'll also have trouble dealing with Wrath of God/Day of Judgment gift packages. Elspeth lets you have resilience for that.
I also don't understand the 1 Knight of the Reliquary. I think he's one of the best creatures ever printed and running four lets you get a lot of utility out of various lands. Having just 1 seems a little too arbitrary.
Then again, my metagame might be way different than yours. Tarmogoyf is pretty bad in mine because of the number of Spellsnares people are packing.
Knight isn't too slow for Legacy, how are you finding it too slow for Modern? With 8 fetches in your deck it's immediately a large threat on turn 2 (frequently out of bolt range) and allows you to get immense value out of different kinds of lands.
It costs the same as Mirran Crusader, frequently hits just as hard, and gives you immense versatility. Can you explain what you mean by too slow? I'm not following.
And if they're bolting your Mirran Crusader it's not that they're leaving your other threats alone, it's that you don't have other threats at the moment. You can't play out 3 cost threats faster than they can use 1 cost removal on them. You're losing the mana value war that way. Mirran Crusader also hits the bin along with all your mana creatures when your opponent Whipflares, something which is being played in Affinity and some red tron variants. The card is strong, no doubt, but it seems too fragile.
As always luck can play a part in any MU, but Jund is really not a complicated deck to play and there where no major play mistakes that the spectators commented on. Either way you're free to you're opinion.
If the meta changes, she may be better but as the meta stands she is mediocre at best. She's bad against Caw, Affinity,Faeries, Combo. Yeah she has her MU but swords are very versatile and have the ability to put you back in a game at any point where as elspeth is very bad at shoring up a MU in this meta as so much of it is flying.
I just had him die to many times to a bolt, it was a last minute change, i had two and dropped one for thrun who was a champ in almost every MU he hit. Knight also was not very aggressive, for him to be good he needs to look for stuff and at least in my deck I want to drop a fatty and swing he just seemed to vulnerable and slow. No doubt he is a good creature though.
Yeah i had it spell snared many a time, but when i resolved him in those MU he was godly. He is so incredibly solid that they have to worry about him when you have other threats on the board. Idk if you've played with him at all, I know you used cobra for a while, but she just doesn't put games away she enables other cards to and it is entirely different. I know he's a ton though and i only borrowed the ones i used so hey.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
As a U/W Tron player I can say for a fact that most of the time I am favored in the Bant matchup. I actually play both of these decks and although I love my Bant deck it's a pretty rough matchup for Bant.
Gaddock Teeg actually doesn't actually do all that much since the current rendition of Tron runs the uncounterable Eldrazi package with Eye of Ugin. This doesn't even go into accounting for randomly drawing an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or a Iona, Shield of Emeria and just hard casting it.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, although good, doesn't do enough. She's legendary and Tron is playing Tron.
As far as Bant goes, the best thing to do against Tron is to pack counter magic, Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge, and Knight of the Reliquary.
Most U/W Tron decks are going to be packing the Unburial Rites package because it's easy to pilot and very powerful. It's important that Bant runs Knight of the Reliquary because it can tutor for land destruction to keep them from assembling Tron as well as exile Tron's graveyard - all at instant speed.
Just calling it as I see it.
:symw::symg::symu: Bant :symu::symg::symw:
:symg::symb: Combo Elves :symb::symg:
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Aggro decks playing bolt means I'm not taking that to the face.
I've also been able to change my mana base. I am no longer suicidal. I run 2 shocks and 4 fetches along with 2 canopies. I am using the quick lands which helps my game with burn/rakdos decks.
Crusader also just destroys 2 archtypes...mono black and mono green (not that they are played at all but segments in the form of splashes are made in various decks).
This along with the use of swords and exalted gives Crusader the edge to me.
Knight is good but I think has to be in a slightly different build than mine to be effective. Just remember, in the mirror my crusader will take your 6/6 Knight on
Like I said...Gaddock teeg takes care of that combo as well...all the while allowing me to swing with my equipped Crusader for 10 or so. I'm not taking your graveyard, I'm going for your life.
Gaddock Teeg doesn't stop the Eye of Ugin win condition. Instant speed tutoring Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre is a real move and it's regularly online by turn 5+.
Although Tron is running the Gifts Ungiven + Unburial Rites combo doesn't mean it's the only way they can win.
Running more than one land destruction is a great option and the fact that you're running three is great. I do still believe running Knight of the Reliquary is an overall better answer in other Bant builds though.
The best way to beat Tron is to keep them off of their Tron lands, counter their Gifts Ungiven, and race them. Tron usually wins or has their win condition on the field on turn 5-7, turn 4 on a nuts hand and no disruption.
:symw::symg::symu: Bant :symu::symg::symw:
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hmmm.... interesting
Performance is also a sideboard card against Storm decks and Hive Mind decks where it just mills out their library.
Best thing about Performance is the fact that it's worth nothing. Let alone the fact that it can hit multiple decks.