Just curious. I might of missed it as I skipped a few pages but what do you guys think of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx? Seems like a decent Gaea's Cradle replacement considering Modern is slower than Legacy. It seems like you'd be fine with running a simple one or two since Elves will be drawing out their deck anyways if they're going off. On a side note, how do you feel about Mana Confluence for those with limited access to fetch lands?
Hey folks, have a few questions about this deck...
First off, wondering whether anyone has given serious testing to Manamorphose? It's pretty pointless early but it can help fix for a Beck, potentially allowing you to keep some no-blue hands and still go off. Once you have at least Nettle+Heritage going it's actually a ritual effect, not just a filtering cantrip. It also allows you to filter a blue mid-turn for a second Beck (or even for the white needed to play Call) or an Intruder Alarm if you run those. Its only real drawback is that it can be a bit rough if you have to blind-draw and hope to hit a one-drop Elf to complete the Heritage trio, but cmon, with something like 24-26 one drop Elves, your chances are not really that bad. Manamorphose in my experience helps the combo not "fizzle" once it starts going, and moves you through the deck in search of Pact or whatever.
Secondly, what do people think of Weird Harvest as a replacement for the banned Green Sun? Unless your oppo has creatures with flash in his deck, what's the drawback to just Weird Harvesting for x= two or three and assembling the rest of your combo? You plan to kill them before they untap anyway, so who cares what they go get from it? How is this not effectively a Diabolic Revelation for 3 less? Basically, are there any flash creatures that can wreck us if we cast Weird Harvest? Snapcaster is an issue so just add the problematic instant in their yard + 1U and see if they have that much mana. Not hard to spot. I'm talking about other cards that might let the oppo interact profitably via Weird Harvest?
Thirdly, why do I not see Primal Command in lists either? I have had games where I went inf on mana, but then my oppo just laughed and countered my Craterhoof, leaving me with only a 5/5 Llanowar or two actually able to attack (non summoning sick). I responded by just Primaling the 'Hoof back into my deck, retutoring it, and recasting it immediately. That blue-mage smugness disappeared quickly. Primal is an expensive Pact but if you are really all-in on going infinite with Curio or Alarm, then what is the difference between five and zero mana?
Fourthly, I saw a list with Promenade in it and had to ask, are people really still running that? It doesn't seem too good to me for its cost, though I guess with a Beck online it's a pretty big draw. It can't be tutored for like Regal though. What results have you all had?
Finally: I read a post where someone spoke of an interaction between Forbidden Orchard and Beck, but I just can't see it. If Orchard is our blue source for Beck, the oppo will get their 1/1 before Beck resolves to see it enter, so you don't draw anything. Arbor Elf can't untap Orchard, it's not a Forest, so as you go off it will remain tapped. Is this based on saving a land drop during the go-off turn in order to turn Orchard into a free draw off Beck a la Dryad Arbor? That's all I can think, otherwise I can't see how it combos with Beck. (Whether or not it combos with Beck, of course, its real problem is whether its nonbo with Arbor Elf is a big enough problem to kill its utility as destroyermaker has said.) If you want a land you can cycle away why not run Horizon Canopy?
Just curious. I might of missed it as I skipped a few pages but what do you guys think of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx? Seems like a decent Gaea's Cradle replacement considering Modern is slower than Legacy. It seems like you'd be fine with running a simple one or two since Elves will be drawing out their deck anyways if they're going off.
I like Nykthos as a 2-of and might raise it to a 3-of. It turbocharges Beck turns and makes Hoof significantly easier to cast. It might even let you dodge Linvala!
Hey folks, have a few questions about this deck...
First off, wondering whether anyone has given serious testing to Manamorphose? It's pretty pointless early but it can help fix for a Beck, potentially allowing you to keep some no-blue hands and still go off. Once you have at least Nettle+Heritage going it's actually a ritual effect, not just a filtering cantrip. It also allows you to filter a blue mid-turn for a second Beck (or even for the white needed to play Call) or an Intruder Alarm if you run those. Its only real drawback is that it can be a bit rough if you have to blind-draw and hope to hit a one-drop Elf to complete the Heritage trio, but cmon, with something like 24-26 one drop Elves, your chances are not really that bad. Manamorphose in my experience helps the combo not "fizzle" once it starts going, and moves you through the deck in search of Pact or whatever.
Secondly, what do people think of Weird Harvest as a replacement for the banned Green Sun? Unless your oppo has creatures with flash in his deck, what's the drawback to just Weird Harvesting for x= two or three and assembling the rest of your combo? You plan to kill them before they untap anyway, so who cares what they go get from it? How is this not effectively a Diabolic Revelation for 3 less? Basically, are there any flash creatures that can wreck us if we cast Weird Harvest? Snapcaster is an issue so just add the problematic instant in their yard + 1U and see if they have that much mana. Not hard to spot. I'm talking about other cards that might let the oppo interact profitably via Weird Harvest?
Thirdly, why do I not see Primal Command in lists either? I have had games where I went inf on mana, but then my oppo just laughed and countered my Craterhoof, leaving me with only a 5/5 Llanowar or two actually able to attack (non summoning sick). I responded by just Primaling the 'Hoof back into my deck, retutoring it, and recasting it immediately. That blue-mage smugness disappeared quickly. Primal is an expensive Pact but if you are really all-in on going infinite with Curio or Alarm, then what is the difference between five and zero mana?
Fourthly, I saw a list with Promenade in it and had to ask, are people really still running that? It doesn't seem too good to me for its cost, though I guess with a Beck online it's a pretty big draw. It can't be tutored for like Regal though. What results have you all had?
Finally: I read a post where someone spoke of an interaction between Forbidden Orchard and Beck, but I just can't see it. If Orchard is our blue source for Beck, the oppo will get their 1/1 before Beck resolves to see it enter, so you don't draw anything. Arbor Elf can't untap Orchard, it's not a Forest, so as you go off it will remain tapped. Is this based on saving a land drop during the go-off turn in order to turn Orchard into a free draw off Beck a la Dryad Arbor? That's all I can think, otherwise I can't see how it combos with Beck. (Whether or not it combos with Beck, of course, its real problem is whether its nonbo with Arbor Elf is a big enough problem to kill its utility as destroyermaker has said.) If you want a land you can cycle away why not run Horizon Canopy?
I've probably seen Manamorphose in a list or two, but I don't like it because I either cut lands (unwise in a land-light deck), mana dork elves (bad idea, IMO, because my most powerful hands tend to start with Turn 1 mana dork elf), combo pieces (unwise unless you're in a really grindy meta--you need the speed against fast decks like aggro), or consistency glue such as Chord of Calling (unwise post-board).
We don't tend to play Weird Harvest because Tiago + removal is an issue, Aven Mindcensor is also nasty, Spellstutter Sprite can rip us a new one, Restoration Angel blinking Tiago increases the chances that they screw us over, Exarchs can punish us if our combo turns fizzle (and so can Resto when comboed with Kiki-Jiki), Vendilion Clique can also increase fizzle chances, Izzet Staticaster is a nightmare and a half, and Aether Vial takes nightmare shenanigans to a whole new level (Leonin Arbiter increases fizzle chances, so does Thalia, Scavenging Ooze screws over Deathrite and might life gain them out of Hoof range, Silvergill Adept just might find them the counterspell, Linvala might just get shoved through Vial at 4, etc.). Thus, Weird Harvest can be a liability against UWR, Twin, Faeries, D&T, GW Hatebears, Merfolk, Blue Moon, Twin Pod, and possibly more.
I suspect Primal Command is a wee bit too expensive in Combo Elves and with not enough upside, unlike in Nykthos Green. While Nykthos Green has more resilient ramp (more Nykthos, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk Wildspeaker), nearly all our ramp gets booted by Anger of the Gods. Topdecking Primal Command post-board-wipe blows. I sometimes have pretty mana-light Beck turns, and Primal Command won't help them that much.
I occasionally see Elvish Promenade in lists, although I keep getting 2-3 tokens from it outside of combo turns (not good enough for me).
Some people play Forbidden Orchard so they can tap it after resolving Beck to get a mana and a cantrip, but I don't like it because I win too often with (Summoner's Pact into) Hoof, and giving them Hoof turn blockers suck (especially pre-Hoof, so I turn into a coward and not swing stuff past the blockers).
Without Beck // Call, are you solely relying on Visionary + Curio engine to dig through your deck? That means you have to burn the first Pact you find on a Visionary if you don't have one (which means you can't use that pact for Regal or to find missing mana combo pieces like Nettles). If you don't have Curio you just play out your opening hand and run out of gas right there. I really think this deck needs more draw sources to reliably dig for pieces.
Scryb IMO is also very overrated in the deck. The downside of being a non-Elf is so bad that its ability to squeeze more mana from an Archdruid is IMO not worth it. I'd rather run Manamorphose if I want a mana boost, it untaps all your Nettles and cantrips, making your deck smaller and helping you do a second mid-turn Beck if you run into one.
I feel the Warden one-of might feel nice but basically what you're doing there is going "against a fast deck I'll go get this piece to gain a bunch of life so that when I pass the turn back I'll live to untap", but I'd rather just focus on winning during my go-off turn, and not giving them another turn. I'd board some Wardens but not maindeck.
I feel the full set of Arbors would be better here. Especially if you take my other advice and add Beck, then you need Breeding Pools and fetches. Arbors can untap Pools to produce blue, making them the superior mana elf in that case. I'd add a second Pendelhaven too, chances of hitting both are slim and it's an ability you want to have more reliable access to IMO.
Also, if you can squeeze in a second Primal you get an additional win-con against any decks that have ways to prevent you from attacking. If you go nuts on mana you can pick up your deck, loop the two Primals, and put any problem permanent on top of their library. Heck, just put all their lands on top too while you're at it, why not? Then go set your life to 7,000 and feel free to pass the turn.
After performing many goldfish hands, 60-70% of times i can kill onturn 3 with Behemoth, or go infinite draw and kill with it, or infinite life (of corse, no interaction).
Considering the same game plan that the deck have today in legacy version (Order -> Behemoth), i don't necessarily need to dig the deck or go to infinite to kill. Glimpse of Nature is no longer the "primary strategy" of the deck, [Natural Order is. I'm trying the same with modern version.
I tried Beck // Call, but the problem is not the cmc, the colors are (GU): hardly can cast the second copy of it when comboing, except if wizards reprint Birchlore Rangers to modern.
Something I've been thinking about after checking out this thread and attempting my own build:
Since we already have access to blue (in the Beck version, anyway), has anyone considered running some sort of simple control splash for insurance? The main card I was considering was Pact of Negation. It wouldn't be foolproof, but it would work if we are able to initiate the combo and then they attempt a kill spell or counter on our win-con//draw engine. We could combine this with Gitaxian Probe, as another poster mentioned earlier.
The other option is Spellskite, but I can only see that being helpful in very specific situations, as a straight up counter would be much better.
I´m thinking of going for a 2nd primal command or a 2nd regal force. Thoughts?
I don't get the point of Emrakul. Staff is a much better win condition because it doesn't need 15 to go off, all it needs is an Archdruid and five total Elves; so is Craterhoof Behemoth because it can kill pretty reliably with one or two Nettles that aren't summoning sick and only costs eight. Sometimes you don't go off infinite, you just manage to generate eight and find a Pact, and with 'Hoof that is enough to kill, with Emrakul it means you fizzle and pass the turn and probably get wrecked. G-wave also just seems sort of underwhelming in a deck that's only half "business" to hit with it, I'd rather run another Primal over G-wave.
I also feel two Wardens MD is one too many, and one Regal is one too few. I'd add in an Elvish Mystic or two to get your turn one mana dork count a little higher.
Honestly, I would go up to four Curios, add in a 'Hoof, and have those and the Staffs be your primary combo-outs.
Please continue the Combo Elves brewing in this thread here. Thanks to izzetmage and the Elves group for their continual work on this deck. Keep up the brewing!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Confluence is bad because we need Arbor Elf to always work. Try my budget monogreen list if that's an issue for you.
First off, wondering whether anyone has given serious testing to Manamorphose? It's pretty pointless early but it can help fix for a Beck, potentially allowing you to keep some no-blue hands and still go off. Once you have at least Nettle+Heritage going it's actually a ritual effect, not just a filtering cantrip. It also allows you to filter a blue mid-turn for a second Beck (or even for the white needed to play Call) or an Intruder Alarm if you run those. Its only real drawback is that it can be a bit rough if you have to blind-draw and hope to hit a one-drop Elf to complete the Heritage trio, but cmon, with something like 24-26 one drop Elves, your chances are not really that bad. Manamorphose in my experience helps the combo not "fizzle" once it starts going, and moves you through the deck in search of Pact or whatever.
Secondly, what do people think of Weird Harvest as a replacement for the banned Green Sun? Unless your oppo has creatures with flash in his deck, what's the drawback to just Weird Harvesting for x= two or three and assembling the rest of your combo? You plan to kill them before they untap anyway, so who cares what they go get from it? How is this not effectively a Diabolic Revelation for 3 less? Basically, are there any flash creatures that can wreck us if we cast Weird Harvest? Snapcaster is an issue so just add the problematic instant in their yard + 1U and see if they have that much mana. Not hard to spot. I'm talking about other cards that might let the oppo interact profitably via Weird Harvest?
Thirdly, why do I not see Primal Command in lists either? I have had games where I went inf on mana, but then my oppo just laughed and countered my Craterhoof, leaving me with only a 5/5 Llanowar or two actually able to attack (non summoning sick). I responded by just Primaling the 'Hoof back into my deck, retutoring it, and recasting it immediately. That blue-mage smugness disappeared quickly. Primal is an expensive Pact but if you are really all-in on going infinite with Curio or Alarm, then what is the difference between five and zero mana?
Fourthly, I saw a list with Promenade in it and had to ask, are people really still running that? It doesn't seem too good to me for its cost, though I guess with a Beck online it's a pretty big draw. It can't be tutored for like Regal though. What results have you all had?
Finally: I read a post where someone spoke of an interaction between Forbidden Orchard and Beck, but I just can't see it. If Orchard is our blue source for Beck, the oppo will get their 1/1 before Beck resolves to see it enter, so you don't draw anything. Arbor Elf can't untap Orchard, it's not a Forest, so as you go off it will remain tapped. Is this based on saving a land drop during the go-off turn in order to turn Orchard into a free draw off Beck a la Dryad Arbor? That's all I can think, otherwise I can't see how it combos with Beck. (Whether or not it combos with Beck, of course, its real problem is whether its nonbo with Arbor Elf is a big enough problem to kill its utility as destroyermaker has said.) If you want a land you can cycle away why not run Horizon Canopy?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
I like Nykthos as a 2-of and might raise it to a 3-of. It turbocharges Beck turns and makes Hoof significantly easier to cast. It might even let you dodge Linvala!
I've probably seen Manamorphose in a list or two, but I don't like it because I either cut lands (unwise in a land-light deck), mana dork elves (bad idea, IMO, because my most powerful hands tend to start with Turn 1 mana dork elf), combo pieces (unwise unless you're in a really grindy meta--you need the speed against fast decks like aggro), or consistency glue such as Chord of Calling (unwise post-board).
We don't tend to play Weird Harvest because Tiago + removal is an issue, Aven Mindcensor is also nasty, Spellstutter Sprite can rip us a new one, Restoration Angel blinking Tiago increases the chances that they screw us over, Exarchs can punish us if our combo turns fizzle (and so can Resto when comboed with Kiki-Jiki), Vendilion Clique can also increase fizzle chances, Izzet Staticaster is a nightmare and a half, and Aether Vial takes nightmare shenanigans to a whole new level (Leonin Arbiter increases fizzle chances, so does Thalia, Scavenging Ooze screws over Deathrite and might life gain them out of Hoof range, Silvergill Adept just might find them the counterspell, Linvala might just get shoved through Vial at 4, etc.). Thus, Weird Harvest can be a liability against UWR, Twin, Faeries, D&T, GW Hatebears, Merfolk, Blue Moon, Twin Pod, and possibly more.
I suspect Primal Command is a wee bit too expensive in Combo Elves and with not enough upside, unlike in Nykthos Green. While Nykthos Green has more resilient ramp (more Nykthos, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk Wildspeaker), nearly all our ramp gets booted by Anger of the Gods. Topdecking Primal Command post-board-wipe blows. I sometimes have pretty mana-light Beck turns, and Primal Command won't help them that much.
I occasionally see Elvish Promenade in lists, although I keep getting 2-3 tokens from it outside of combo turns (not good enough for me).
Some people play Forbidden Orchard so they can tap it after resolving Beck to get a mana and a cantrip, but I don't like it because I win too often with (Summoner's Pact into) Hoof, and giving them Hoof turn blockers suck (especially pre-Hoof, so I turn into a coward and not swing stuff past the blockers).
2 Arbor Elf
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Scryb Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Essence Warden
1 Eternal Witness
3 Cloudstone Curio
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Primal Command
2 Tooth and Nail
Lands
16 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
Without Beck // Call, are you solely relying on Visionary + Curio engine to dig through your deck? That means you have to burn the first Pact you find on a Visionary if you don't have one (which means you can't use that pact for Regal or to find missing mana combo pieces like Nettles). If you don't have Curio you just play out your opening hand and run out of gas right there. I really think this deck needs more draw sources to reliably dig for pieces.
Scryb IMO is also very overrated in the deck. The downside of being a non-Elf is so bad that its ability to squeeze more mana from an Archdruid is IMO not worth it. I'd rather run Manamorphose if I want a mana boost, it untaps all your Nettles and cantrips, making your deck smaller and helping you do a second mid-turn Beck if you run into one.
I feel the Warden one-of might feel nice but basically what you're doing there is going "against a fast deck I'll go get this piece to gain a bunch of life so that when I pass the turn back I'll live to untap", but I'd rather just focus on winning during my go-off turn, and not giving them another turn. I'd board some Wardens but not maindeck.
I feel the full set of Arbors would be better here. Especially if you take my other advice and add Beck, then you need Breeding Pools and fetches. Arbors can untap Pools to produce blue, making them the superior mana elf in that case. I'd add a second Pendelhaven too, chances of hitting both are slim and it's an ability you want to have more reliable access to IMO.
Also, if you can squeeze in a second Primal you get an additional win-con against any decks that have ways to prevent you from attacking. If you go nuts on mana you can pick up your deck, loop the two Primals, and put any problem permanent on top of their library. Heck, just put all their lands on top too while you're at it, why not? Then go set your life to 7,000 and feel free to pass the turn.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Considering the same game plan that the deck have today in legacy version (Order -> Behemoth), i don't necessarily need to dig the deck or go to infinite to kill. Glimpse of Nature is no longer the "primary strategy" of the deck, [Natural Order is. I'm trying the same with modern version.
There are many interactions between these cards: 10 mana dorks, Elvish Visionary, Nettle Sentinel, Heritage Druid, Elvish Archdruid and Scryb Ranger that allow me to cast behemoth on turn 3 or 4.
These cards Summoner's Pact, Cloudstone Curio, Eternal Witness, Primal Command,Tooth and Nail, Essence Warden are here to cheat Behemoth early and create other "mini combos" and infinite combos (already explained in this topic).
I tried Beck // Call, but the problem is not the cmc, the colors are (GU): hardly can cast the second copy of it when comboing, except if wizards reprint Birchlore Rangers to modern.
Have you tested Scryb Ranger ? It's a insane card (of corse...i prefer Quirion Ranger >.<).
I play legacy elves for almost one year and never seen one elf deck with 4 Dryad Arbor (obvious reasons), except Dredge Manaless (not elf =D).
I will test Manamorphose, but will tink what to take out.
Tanks !
Tiago Silva
Since we already have access to blue (in the Beck version, anyway), has anyone considered running some sort of simple control splash for insurance? The main card I was considering was Pact of Negation. It wouldn't be foolproof, but it would work if we are able to initiate the combo and then they attempt a kill spell or counter on our win-con//draw engine. We could combine this with Gitaxian Probe, as another poster mentioned earlier.
The other option is Spellskite, but I can only see that being helpful in very specific situations, as a straight up counter would be much better.
Modern: GGG Combo Elves
EDH: GW Rhys, the Redeemed
I don't get the point of Emrakul. Staff is a much better win condition because it doesn't need 15 to go off, all it needs is an Archdruid and five total Elves; so is Craterhoof Behemoth because it can kill pretty reliably with one or two Nettles that aren't summoning sick and only costs eight. Sometimes you don't go off infinite, you just manage to generate eight and find a Pact, and with 'Hoof that is enough to kill, with Emrakul it means you fizzle and pass the turn and probably get wrecked. G-wave also just seems sort of underwhelming in a deck that's only half "business" to hit with it, I'd rather run another Primal over G-wave.
I also feel two Wardens MD is one too many, and one Regal is one too few. I'd add in an Elvish Mystic or two to get your turn one mana dork count a little higher.
Honestly, I would go up to four Curios, add in a 'Hoof, and have those and the Staffs be your primary combo-outs.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Please continue the Combo Elves brewing in this thread here. Thanks to izzetmage and the Elves group for their continual work on this deck. Keep up the brewing!