@chrstphrbrnnn: It's not necessarily exactly how you should side; just a rough guideline. If you're going to be on the play, you obviously shouldn't side in Caverns.
@patlienemann: Yes, technically this deck can win on turn 1. You have to have a perfect draw to do it though; You have to be on the draw, Opal+Land+2 Equips to lay down Paladin, and then your other 3 equips have to draw you into two more Opals and a Retract.
Turn 1 Discard hurts, but it hurts a little bit less than removal. Removal requires you to expend resources before losing your Paladin. Discard on turn 1 takes away your Paladin, but if you have a second one, you just keep going, and if not, you have a 45% to draw one, or a Spoils, by turn 4.
Also, the 'whiff rate' seems like it would be higher than everyone is making it seem.
The whiff rate is not that high; once you get going, you will draw a lot of cards. We have 28 free cantrips, almost half our deck. I've only lost one game to Thalia; I usually Grapeshot her, go off before she hits the table, or just lay down a Paladin and one or 2 equips a turn, making Paladin an effective shield and beatstick (Accorder's Shield) through Thalia, until either they decide to block with her, or I draw a Sigil and make him huge.
I goldfished the deck and don't see a way to win on turn 2 without drawing all 4 Opals. Am I missing something?
What particular problem were you having? Turn 2 Pally, draw bunches of cards, Mox Opal, Retract, draw more cards. Eventually draw SSG or 2 more Opals and a Grapeshot.
Edit: 2-1 vs. UW Control. Game 3, killed him with 4 Equips-->Opal-->Double Retract-->Grapeshot. No Paladin at all.
Edit2: Beat a Merfolk player 4-0. Ther first two games, "You were just really lucky." 4th game he kicked me out. Apparently my deck is bad, and Fish is worse.
Edit3: Correcton, lost a second game to Thalia...out of an Affinity sideboard.
I don't think Composite Golem is that much useful, you can still play grapeshot without it.
Look at the last pic I uploaded of Colosus setups, it was the third turn and after dropping 11 equips, 2 golems, 1 colossus and 1 greaves, I still had 5 mana up (land, mox and mantle+greaves on pally or golems) for a grapeshot if needed. When I was first testing Colossus I had 1 grapeshot main just as a backup.
And Champ is right, you can't afford that much space, thats why I run 2 of each on that setup, only 6 cards that I can draw into while comboing off work as a win con, the rest is part of the cantripping combo.
What particular problem were you having? Turn 2 Pally, draw bunches of cards, Mox Opal, Retract, draw more cards. Eventually draw SSG or 2 more Opals and a Grapeshot.
Enough draw but not enough mana. The only way to generate enough mana to Grapeshot is to wait one turn for your lands to untap or to draw 3 Moxen (play & tap 1, legend rule the 2nd, play & tap the 3rd).
You will (more than likely) lose to decks that typically run 6-8-more pieces of spot removal if they know what they're doing.
Thats my biggest fear for the deck. When people get to know the deck they'll figure out how to play against it (ie. just leave two mana up for spot removal at all times). The only thing working for the deck against that is the explosiveness, people not only have to understand the deck, they have to recognize the deck from the first two turns and adapt their play instantly, cause otherwise come turn 3 their dead.
It also sucks that you seem to have to mulligan REALLY hard w. it. Seeing the decklists I can read many hands that are completely unplayable. THAT being said.. It's pretty explosive when you have just an average hand.
I mull to pally or spoils (8/60 cards), mox and retracts aren't much needed on opening hand because if you got pally and no mox or retract it probably means you got pally with lots of equips for cantrips.
Gut Shot could work as a sb answer to Thalia (which will nearly hose you.. unless you pull something out of your ass).
Running 3 grapeshots, you can use one vs Thalia on game 1 if someone runs it. But an added Gut shot game 2 or 3 out the sb could work against thalia and some others actually.
Stony Silence will beat you for sure unless you have like.. 3 or so lands in play.. Which you won't since you run a legacy-style minimum of lands..
I actually do have 3 lands on the third turn more than not, there are few lands on deck, but the cantrips grab a lot of those few lands, its the reason the deck might whiff haflway through.
I think the deck really needs an alt win con though (but nothing shennanigans like.. "So I get X card. THEN I cast it after I have X artifacts in play.. THEN I cast this other spell.. and THEN I can cast something else and maybe I'll win......"
Like.. Something silly / simple that works w. the deck as a whole. I.E. Disciple of the Vault and Arcbound Ravager, etc. But better of course... 1-2 cards max and taking up at MOST 4-6 slots in the maindeck.
If you do that, I'd say you have a deck..
First, the first X, then Y, then Z is rather risky indeed, but you pretty much can access your whole deck by turn 3, so its not hard to find them and if you find them you only need to pay 2 (colorless) for the boots.
That said, you contradict yourself and offer a worse alt, IMO.
On one hand you are saying that 11 equips (free) > M.Golem (free) > Colossus (free) > Boots (2 mana) is too much shennanigans.
On the other hand you offer 19 equips > Ravager (2 mana) > Into Disciple (1 more mana to play) as simpler solution.
It needs more mana, more equips and IMO more weak to dirsuption.
Ravager was actually my idea; it's not the best replacement for Grapeshot, but it allows a fallback "Oh all my Paladins are gone/worthless" plan.
It actually makes mana, because Ravager can sac Opals. It is also highly resilient to disruption, if you build around it properly. The most likely response is spot removal, and the combo takes place at instant speed. You run a Thopter or two, play the Disciple first. Play Ravager. If they try to kill Disciple, you simply sac everything to Ravager and have a massive Thopter. If not, they die faster than removal can hit any of the pieces.
Also, Gut Shot is definitely a solid sideboard option for Thalia. Paying 3 for Grapeshot gets rough on a clock, and it also sucks to have to do it at sorcery speed and use up one of your wincons.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
My record so far is quite impressive, or would be if it wasn't bloated by Cockatrice scrubs. One of my new favorite things to do is to keep a Retract/Grapeshot hand and storm them out without Paladin. Did that to a Zoo player today in G3 using his own Path to Exile to up my Storm to lethal.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I've only run this a few games on cockatrice, but what do you guys think: could this deck be solid enough to run at a PTQ? I've been looking for a deck to purchase before March and I really think this one.
I wouldn't take this to a PTQ, sometimes brews are nice but proven is just better when you need consistency
We've shown this deck to be pretty consistent. It has highly regular turn 2 and 3 kills and is really only vulnerable to spot removal.
That said, while I think it's viable, I don't think a PTQ is the place to start testing it. It definitely needs smaller, more widespread testing before we start rocking it at big events.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
My PTQ isn't until March, but I've gotta drop a couple hundred to buy a Modern deck. This deck is less expensive than some, cool and has a rouge surprise factor. I'm not personally a big fan of the fact that all of the proven decks seem to have an Achilles heel in that if they meet a certain match up it's practically autolose, especially when those proven decks have their boards tuned to the other proven decks.
Is there anything that can replace Mox Opal in this list? I can pretty much trade for everything except the Opals, and I hate the idea of dropping $60 on them for a deck that I'm not going to play a lot.
Was testing my "Top Control" deck last night and someone used this deck against me (ggs whoever you were). I was on the play, played a land and my lantern, he revealed an equip on the top of the deck. My first reaction was " Pally deck? should be easy. No! Wait! Pally decks don't run Kite Shield, Cheerios!!! ****!!!" He won game 1 obviously, though he got off on turn 4, he was kind of getting everything together before going off, played a Spoils of the Vault for retract on turn 3, then vault for paladin turn 4. Weird order, I would have vaulted for paladin turn 2 and won turn 3. He was just testing the deck though, I could tell when he was dropping equips pausing, drawing, pausing, equip, pause, draw, pause, etc... expirienced people just blow through the deck knowing the opponent cant react. he was figuring it out. Anyways, game 2 I side in 4 leylines and 2 extra dispatch, got leyline turn 1, then couldn't even attack with ensnaring bridge on turn 3, and to top it off I dispatched his first Pally, he quit at around turn 12 and didn't even play game 3.
@patlienemann: Yes, technically this deck can win on turn 1. You have to have a perfect draw to do it though; You have to be on the draw, Opal+Land+2 Equips to lay down Paladin, and then your other 3 equips have to draw you into two more Opals and a Retract.
Turn 1 Discard hurts, but it hurts a little bit less than removal. Removal requires you to expend resources before losing your Paladin. Discard on turn 1 takes away your Paladin, but if you have a second one, you just keep going, and if not, you have a 45% to draw one, or a Spoils, by turn 4.
The whiff rate is not that high; once you get going, you will draw a lot of cards. We have 28 free cantrips, almost half our deck. I've only lost one game to Thalia; I usually Grapeshot her, go off before she hits the table, or just lay down a Paladin and one or 2 equips a turn, making Paladin an effective shield and beatstick (Accorder's Shield) through Thalia, until either they decide to block with her, or I draw a Sigil and make him huge.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Path it. Out of the SB of course.
I goldfished the deck and don't see a way to win on turn 2 without drawing all 4 Opals. Am I missing something?
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
What particular problem were you having? Turn 2 Pally, draw bunches of cards, Mox Opal, Retract, draw more cards. Eventually draw SSG or 2 more Opals and a Grapeshot.
Edit: 2-1 vs. UW Control. Game 3, killed him with 4 Equips-->Opal-->Double Retract-->Grapeshot. No Paladin at all.
Edit2: Beat a Merfolk player 4-0. Ther first two games, "You were just really lucky." 4th game he kicked me out. Apparently my deck is bad, and Fish is worse.
Edit3: Correcton, lost a second game to Thalia...out of an Affinity sideboard.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
can a deck that needs to hit a cantrip almost every second card afford that much, stuff?
Look at the last pic I uploaded of Colosus setups, it was the third turn and after dropping 11 equips, 2 golems, 1 colossus and 1 greaves, I still had 5 mana up (land, mox and mantle+greaves on pally or golems) for a grapeshot if needed. When I was first testing Colossus I had 1 grapeshot main just as a backup.
And Champ is right, you can't afford that much space, thats why I run 2 of each on that setup, only 6 cards that I can draw into while comboing off work as a win con, the rest is part of the cantripping combo.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Enough draw but not enough mana. The only way to generate enough mana to Grapeshot is to wait one turn for your lands to untap or to draw 3 Moxen (play & tap 1, legend rule the 2nd, play & tap the 3rd).
I'm playing without SSG, do you recommend it?
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I do recommend at least 1 SSG, occasionally you will exile a Mox or two and then have to wait until turn 3 if you don't have SSG.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Thats my biggest fear for the deck. When people get to know the deck they'll figure out how to play against it (ie. just leave two mana up for spot removal at all times). The only thing working for the deck against that is the explosiveness, people not only have to understand the deck, they have to recognize the deck from the first two turns and adapt their play instantly, cause otherwise come turn 3 their dead.
I mull to pally or spoils (8/60 cards), mox and retracts aren't much needed on opening hand because if you got pally and no mox or retract it probably means you got pally with lots of equips for cantrips.
Running 3 grapeshots, you can use one vs Thalia on game 1 if someone runs it. But an added Gut shot game 2 or 3 out the sb could work against thalia and some others actually.
I actually do have 3 lands on the third turn more than not, there are few lands on deck, but the cantrips grab a lot of those few lands, its the reason the deck might whiff haflway through.
First, the first X, then Y, then Z is rather risky indeed, but you pretty much can access your whole deck by turn 3, so its not hard to find them and if you find them you only need to pay 2 (colorless) for the boots.
That said, you contradict yourself and offer a worse alt, IMO.
On one hand you are saying that 11 equips (free) > M.Golem (free) > Colossus (free) > Boots (2 mana) is too much shennanigans.
On the other hand you offer 19 equips > Ravager (2 mana) > Into Disciple (1 more mana to play) as simpler solution.
It needs more mana, more equips and IMO more weak to dirsuption.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
It actually makes mana, because Ravager can sac Opals. It is also highly resilient to disruption, if you build around it properly. The most likely response is spot removal, and the combo takes place at instant speed. You run a Thopter or two, play the Disciple first. Play Ravager. If they try to kill Disciple, you simply sac everything to Ravager and have a massive Thopter. If not, they die faster than removal can hit any of the pieces.
Also, Gut Shot is definitely a solid sideboard option for Thalia. Paying 3 for Grapeshot gets rough on a clock, and it also sucks to have to do it at sorcery speed and use up one of your wincons.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
4 Pact of Negation
3 Nature's Claim
3 Gut Shot
1 Storm Entity
My record so far is quite impressive, or would be if it wasn't bloated by Cockatrice scrubs. One of my new favorite things to do is to keep a Retract/Grapeshot hand and storm them out without Paladin. Did that to a Zoo player today in G3 using his own Path to Exile to up my Storm to lethal.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
We've shown this deck to be pretty consistent. It has highly regular turn 2 and 3 kills and is really only vulnerable to spot removal.
That said, while I think it's viable, I don't think a PTQ is the place to start testing it. It definitely needs smaller, more widespread testing before we start rocking it at big events.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
Was testing my "Top Control" deck last night and someone used this deck against me (ggs whoever you were). I was on the play, played a land and my lantern, he revealed an equip on the top of the deck. My first reaction was " Pally deck? should be easy. No! Wait! Pally decks don't run Kite Shield, Cheerios!!! ****!!!" He won game 1 obviously, though he got off on turn 4, he was kind of getting everything together before going off, played a Spoils of the Vault for retract on turn 3, then vault for paladin turn 4. Weird order, I would have vaulted for paladin turn 2 and won turn 3. He was just testing the deck though, I could tell when he was dropping equips pausing, drawing, pausing, equip, pause, draw, pause, etc... expirienced people just blow through the deck knowing the opponent cant react. he was figuring it out. Anyways, game 2 I side in 4 leylines and 2 extra dispatch, got leyline turn 1, then couldn't even attack with ensnaring bridge on turn 3, and to top it off I dispatched his first Pally, he quit at around turn 12 and didn't even play game 3.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"