I think the 4 bolts and 4 skreds is definitely enough as far as 1cc removal goes. That's what I run and I've never felt like I needed more, especially with the Magma Jets.
Green seems like one of the better splashes, and Tarmogoyf definitely helps fill an early gap in the deck that is usually only occupied by removal. I have been really liking 6 dragons in my list, but I can see how with the addition of goyfs you have threats that aren't just the dragons. The access to Ancient Grudge out of the side seems nice too.
One concern I have is that with so many fetches, Stomping Grounds, and no Coldsteel Hearts, the Scrying Sheets seem REALLY bad. As far as I'm concerned, they are definitely a major reason to run this deck, but with less than a 1/4 chance of hitting a snow card, they seem pretty unreliable. How have they been performing for you?
Also 4 Blood Moon in the main is a lot, but if your meta is very Jund/UWR/Tron heavy its pretty reasonable.
For me, some number of Anger of the Gods in the main has been pretty sweet.
You're right. I've since tuned my list with some Coldsteel Hearts and it runs a lot smoother; Heart also ensures you can get green mana even if you can't find a Forest before rushing out a Blood Moon. I'm feeling a little underwhelmed by Grim Lavamancer in this list, so I cut his numbers down a bit. Current:
PS: This list has 9 Creatures, 12 Instants, 2 Sorceries, 8 fetch lands, 3 Enchantments, 6 Planeswalkers, and 4 Artifacts, so Tarmogoyf has some ridiculous growth potential here - all he's missing is Tribal (unfortunately I don't think Tarfire is quite good enough). Spell Pierce.dec - which needs to counter most of these spells - can't really keep up if you resolve the Lhurgoyf. So far I'm really liking the feel. 4 Coldsteel, like with the monored lists, accelerate into Planeswalkers better than anything. Batterskull is awesome G2 against aggro, since they probably won't bring in artifact hate.
Edit - switched a Blood Moon out of the main for a fourth dragon. I'm thinking about a split with Stormbreath Dragon since Path to Exile is really the only thing that stops the creature suite here, but so far it hasn't been an issue.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I hate to double post, but after lots more testing, I want to say that splashing green for Tarmogoyf is almost definitely the direction this deck wants to go. It allows you to have one of your "big threats" online 3 turns earlier than normal, which can put pressure on opponents while you burn out their creatures, and which only increases the pressure your other bombs apply, especially since they usually come in a variety of permanent types (requiring multiple types of removal). Maybe the most fun thing about Goyf is he feels so natural here, like we're playing a dedicated Tarmogoyf deck. We have almost every card type in the maindeck so he gets enormous fast. Reminds me of the good ol' days with green CounterTop in Legacy.
Phyrexian Ironfoot was good for this deck because it could play either the offensive or the defensive. Tarmogoyf is much bigger, one mana cheaper, and though it can't play both roles simultaneously like Ironfoot could with a little extra mana, it plays the role of your choice significantly better. The ability to pressure combo and control players and wall aggro players with a single efficient creature is too good to pass up in this kind of control shell. Like the deck's Planeswalkers, opponents are usually forced to spend multiple cards getting rid of the Lhurgoyf, and with his addition the amount of answers they'll need adds up fast; I often find myself ahead by 3-4 cards after an opponent uses his whole hand to clear up the board, after which it's easy to clean up the mess with a Thundermaw Hellkite.
I've also been playing around with my mana. My land base right now looks like this:
I took the Misty Rainforests down from 4 because I'd often find myself with too many, even though they're great for surviving your own Blood Moon. I almost never want to fetch the Stomping Ground; it's just there for smoothing if I need to rush out a Tarmogoyf and only have a Scalding Tarn in hand. We don't really need the UG fetchland maxed out, though, with two basic Forest and a set of Coldsteel Heart in the main.
Anger of the Gods is also really nice in the MD. Against decks like Pod it's usually right to let them build up a little presence over the first few turns and cast Anger as a 2-or-3-for-one, saving your one-for-one burn spells for later. Keep in mind that thanks to the exile clause, against creatures like Kitchen Finks it's really more of a two-for-one than an equal trade.
Not sure what our bad matchups are right now, so I'd love some feedback on that based on what you guys have been struggling with. I do know that we eat creature decks and control decks alive (especially of the multicolored variety). UWR is an easy match too, which positions us favorably against most of the field. Has anyone else tried Tarmogoyf?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I hate to double post, but after lots more testing, I want to say that splashing green for Tarmogoyf is almost definitely the direction this deck wants to go. It allows you to have one of your "big threats" online 3 turns earlier than normal, which can put pressure on opponents while you burn out their creatures, and which only increases the pressure your other bombs apply, especially since they usually come in a variety of permanent types (requiring multiple types of removal). Maybe the most fun thing about Goyf is he feels so natural here, like we're playing a dedicated Tarmogoyf deck. We have almost every card type in the maindeck so he gets enormous fast. Reminds me of the good ol' days with green CounterTop in Legacy.
Phyrexian Ironfoot was good for this deck because it could play either the offensive or the defensive. Tarmogoyf is much bigger, one mana cheaper, and though it can't play both roles simultaneously like Ironfoot could with a little extra mana, it plays the role of your choice significantly better. The ability to pressure combo and control players and wall aggro players with a single efficient creature is too good to pass up in this kind of control shell. Like the deck's Planeswalkers, opponents are usually forced to spend multiple cards getting rid of the Lhurgoyf, and with his addition the amount of answers they'll need adds up fast; I often find myself ahead by 3-4 cards after an opponent uses his whole hand to clear up the board, after which it's easy to clean up the mess with a Thundermaw Hellkite.
I've also been playing around with my mana. My land base right now looks like this:
I took the Misty Rainforests down from 4 because I'd often find myself with too many, even though they're great for surviving your own Blood Moon. I almost never want to fetch the Stomping Ground; it's just there for smoothing if I need to rush out a Tarmogoyf and only have a Scalding Tarn in hand. We don't really need the UG fetchland maxed out, though, with two basic Forest and a set of Coldsteel Heart in the main.
Anger of the Gods is also really nice in the MD. Against decks like Pod it's usually right to let them build up a little presence over the first few turns and cast Anger as a 2-or-3-for-one, saving your one-for-one burn spells for later. Keep in mind that thanks to the exile clause, against creatures like Kitchen Finks it's really more of a two-for-one than an equal trade.
Not sure what our bad matchups are right now, so I'd love some feedback on that based on what you guys have been struggling with. I do know that we eat creature decks and control decks alive (especially of the multicolored variety). UWR is an easy match too, which positions us favorably against most of the field. Has anyone else tried Tarmogoyf?
Sorry I haven't been on the forums much (at all) recently, but I've been finishing up my semester with finals and whatnot.
Been trying the RG version with goyf a bit myself, and WOW is he fantastic in this deck. He really fills a huge gap in the deck that I was having issues with before: the early creature plays. He is pretty much a perfect replacement for Boros Reckoner, whose "combo" with Skred I almost never actually used, and, as I mentioned a couple posts back, is actually pretty terrible in modern right now.
The manabase looks a lot better, as again, too many fetches are kind of a nonbo with Scrying Sheets. It also seems to indicate a strong departure from the Grim Lavamancer, who I also found to be a little underwhelming in this deck, as he is just a lot worse in decks without lots of Thoughtseize/Serum Visions-type early plays to go along with tons of fetches. Still pretty good in some matchups though, like creature-reliant combo decks such as Melira pod and any sort of attempted Delver deck.
As for matchups, I haven't done enough testing with the GR version yet, but I'll list some of the worse matchups I had with the mono red version from the lots of testing I did with that one.
-Storm was pretty bad, but almost no one plays that deck anymore.
-Bogles is obviously terrible, as we have almost no way to interact with them, and we don't really present enough of a clock to put the kind of pressure that deck needs. Blood Moon is good here, but usually comes down too late to matter. Green sideboard options such as Nature's Claim should help a bit.
-I had a little trouble with soul sisters actually, which has a pretty good matchup against most creature decks. A timely Anger of the Gods certainly puts the game away if they don't get the early Ascendant nut draw, but sometimes you don't have it. Also of note: this matchup gets much harder if your opponent plays around your burn with their ascendants. Tarmogoyf should help this matchup.
-Merfolk was a lot harder than I thought it would be, as I would expect that matchup to be a cakewalk with the amount of removal/sweepers we have, and Blood Moon for their Mutavaults. However, they can put so much power on the board out of nowhere that they can really take advantage of our pretty slow clock. Tarmogoyf also seems good here.
Those were the ones that stuck out to me that I hadn't really thought would be bad matchups before testing, but I imagine the GR version would be better than the mono R against most of them.
Been thinking a bit about the planeswalkers being run in this deck. I've actually been a little underwhelmed with Koth of the Hammer recently, despite being one of the cornerstones of the deck. I find his inability to actually affect the board to be a little bit of a turnoff. He is very good when you are ahead, but he can sometimes end up just doing literally nothing when you are behind. All he really brings to the table is pressure. I've been experimenting a bit with planeswalkers other than Koth/Chandra, especially those opened up with the addition of the green splash.
I think we have four options for planeswalkers in the GR version:
Koth of the Hammer: Provides a lot of immediate hasty pressure, while threatening a deadly ultimate very soon after coming down. Very good at taking out opposing planeswalkers or our opponent when our removal has cleared out most creatures. A very bad play when you are losing on the board to creatures.
Chandra, Pyromaster: Provides a very powerful card advantage engine that, when combined with Scrying Sheets, is able to bury opponents in sheer amount of cards. Also can occasionally ping relevant dudes and opposing planeswalkers. Also very bad when you are losing on the board.
Garruk Relentless: An interesting option provided by the green splash, this guy seems really strong here. Unlike the first two options, he is actually not terrible when you are losing on the board, while also providing pressure (although less than Koth) when you are ahead. The steady stream of wolves on his front side can protect himself, and his ability to take out an opposing threat is also a very strong option that can potentially allow us to start tutoring out Thundermaw Hellkites.
Xenagos the Reveler: Also provides the steady stream of 2/2s, but this time with haste. In exchange, it loses the ability to fight something and flip. Seems to be just worse than Garruk here, since it basically only has one ability in this deck. Kind of a mix between Garruk and Koth.
I think the right number of total planeswalkers is around 6-8, although a lot of them fill very different roles, so having a number for "planeswalker slots" doesn't seem quite right.
I kind of look at koth as almost a tempo spell in a lot of matchups. He's easily dealt with, but he HAS to be dealt with and immediately. Hes probably our weakest threat, but I very much enjoy him.
Has anyone played against the ninja-bear-delver deck that's really popular right now? I think that matchup is in our favor, but it's crazy fun, lots of back and forth.
I saw a few people building Skred and liked the idea, and then found this place.
I've been playing the following list for a while, and I find it enjoyable.
After seeing you guys go green, I've played around with that, as well, but I find it just isn't nearly as interesting to play as the mono red version, not to mention it's quite pricy compared to mono red's ~$100 price tag, if I should ever want to buy the deck. It's actually pretty hard to pull Tarm up on your own since artifacts and enchantments aren't so likely to hit grave unless your opponent discards/mills you, and you don't run that many sorceries, so Tarms generally end up being 2/3s or at best 3/4s. On the other hand, facing Jund/Junk could end up with a huge Tarm. I've had opponents ram me with 7/8 tarms on turn 4 or so.
I run pyroclasms over Anger of the Gods. It comes down a turn earlier, combos with my creatures better, and kills just as much stuff as Anger. Of course, it makes melirapod matchups harder for me, but I have really enjoyed playing these.
I like Boros Reckoner in this deck. The Skred combo actually gets pulled off every so often. The thing I like most about Reckoner is that once he hits the field, he usually represents an unavoidable 3 points of damage your opponent has to waste a card on. It also trades with just about any creature in competitive play, especially Tarm. He also combos with Pyroclasm oh so well. In fact, I liked him enough to run two copies of Spitemare, his lesser cousin by far. I was very skeptical of Spitemare at first, but I was looking for another threat in the 4 drop slot, and other options weren't doing too well in testing. Spitemare has done so-so, though I may try two copies of Pyromaster later.
As you can see, I run 8 moons between the main and side.
This comes much more from my love of Blood Moon rather than any practical reason, but as Moon kills a good number of decks on its own, having another 4 copies of it has come in useful.
Vexing Susher is cute for control matchups. Although it usually eats a bolt more often than not, it helps stick blood moons and planeswalkers, on which you can just ride to victory vs control. It also helps that the deck's threats are all more or less answer-or-die. Modern control decks actually don't have much access to reliable counters, and having to counter everything you play makes control match ups actually not too bad. Still, Susher is there if you need him.
Matchups:
GRTron - Stick a moon, then kill as quickly as possible. Not a great matchup.
UTron - Actually feels worse than even facing GRTron. Sticking a moon is harder, and it often means absolutely nothing.
Bogle - I actually won most of my Bogle matchups thanks to early pyroclasms and blood moon. But is generally a pretty terrible matchup.
Merfolk - There were loads and loads of merfolks when I was testing, for some reason. These games generally went well with all the removal. If pyroclasm hits, it generally ends in my favor, as well.
Melirapod/Kikipod - Hard time dealing with the creatures. Somehow the Kikipod matchups generally go easier than the Melirapod ones.
Splintertwin - Draw a lot of removal for the win.
Affinity - Another early pyro for the win matchup. Shatterstorm over Shattering Spree because red simply can't deal with Etched Champion otherwise.
Jund/Junk - I've lost against these decks maybe once. Stick a Blood Moon and they'll die eventually.
Control - Stick a moon or Koth and they die.
Living End - this matchup is unwinnable. Seriously. I might get lucky vs a badly built one, but it stands no chance against a well-built living end deck.
That's about it. Thoughts and comments appreciated.
I saw a few people building Skred and liked the idea, and then found this place.
I've been playing the following list for a while, and I find it enjoyable.
After seeing you guys go green, I've played around with that, as well, but I find it just isn't nearly as interesting to play as the mono red version, not to mention it's quite pricy compared to mono red's ~$100 price tag, if I should ever want to buy the deck. It's actually pretty hard to pull Tarm up on your own since artifacts and enchantments aren't so likely to hit grave unless your opponent discards/mills you, and you don't run that many sorceries, so Tarms generally end up being 2/3s or at best 3/4s. On the other hand, facing Jund/Junk could end up with a huge Tarm. I've had opponents ram me with 7/8 tarms on turn 4 or so.
I run pyroclasms over Anger of the Gods. It comes down a turn earlier, combos with my creatures better, and kills just as much stuff as Anger. Of course, it makes melirapod matchups harder for me, but I have really enjoyed playing these.
I like Boros Reckoner in this deck. The Skred combo actually gets pulled off every so often. The thing I like most about Reckoner is that once he hits the field, he usually represents an unavoidable 3 points of damage your opponent has to waste a card on. It also trades with just about any creature in competitive play, especially Tarm. He also combos with Pyroclasm oh so well. In fact, I liked him enough to run two copies of Spitemare, his lesser cousin by far. I was very skeptical of Spitemare at first, but I was looking for another threat in the 4 drop slot, and other options weren't doing too well in testing. Spitemare has done so-so, though I may try two copies of Pyromaster later.
As you can see, I run 8 moons between the main and side.
This comes much more from my love of Blood Moon rather than any practical reason, but as Moon kills a good number of decks on its own, having another 4 copies of it has come in useful.
Vexing Susher is cute for control matchups. Although it usually eats a bolt more often than not, it helps stick blood moons and planeswalkers, on which you can just ride to victory vs control. It also helps that the deck's threats are all more or less answer-or-die. Modern control decks actually don't have much access to reliable counters, and having to counter everything you play makes control match ups actually not too bad. Still, Susher is there if you need him.
Matchups:
GRTron - Stick a moon, then kill as quickly as possible. Not a great matchup.
UTron - Actually feels worse than even facing GRTron. Sticking a moon is harder, and it often means absolutely nothing.
Bogle - I actually won most of my Bogle matchups thanks to early pyroclasms and blood moon. But is generally a pretty terrible matchup.
Merfolk - There were loads and loads of merfolks when I was testing, for some reason. These games generally went well with all the removal. If pyroclasm hits, it generally ends in my favor, as well.
Melirapod/Kikipod - Hard time dealing with the creatures. Somehow the Kikipod matchups generally go easier than the Melirapod ones.
Splintertwin - Draw a lot of removal for the win.
Affinity - Another early pyro for the win matchup. Shatterstorm over Shattering Spree because red simply can't deal with Etched Champion otherwise.
Jund/Junk - I've lost against these decks maybe once. Stick a Blood Moon and they'll die eventually.
Control - Stick a moon or Koth and they die.
Living End - this matchup is unwinnable. Seriously. I might get lucky vs a badly built one, but it stands no chance against a well-built living end deck.
That's about it. Thoughts and comments appreciated.
Hey, I'm really glad Boros Reckoner has been working out for you. I found myself hardly ever using the Skred combo because if my opponent was down low enough for it to kill them, I usually had a strong board presence (read: a Thundermaw Hellkite or Demigod of Revenge), and if they weren't low enough, then I wouldn't throw away my only creature to it. Also having it responded to with an opponent's removal was pretty devastating. That being said, I certainly have closed out games with it, and it is a good option to have. Both cards are certainly good on their own, I have just been a little frustrated with Boros Reckoner recently so I have been trying new things. That being said, if I were to buy a version of the deck today, it would be the mono red one, with 4 Boros Reckoner.
How worth it has Mouth of Ronom been? That's a card that I have been eyeing for a while, but never bothered to actually try out due to my mono red list running Demigod of Revenges. Have the 6 colorless sources gotten in the way of casting Boros Reckoner on time? I would certainly like to be able to get more value out of my lands in the late game, and that seems like a very good option that can also uncounterably interact with Splinter Twin (I've long been a fan of AEther Spellbomb in other decks for the same reason).
You can read in earlier posts about how much I like Chandra, Pyromaster in this deck, so I won't go into it too much, but one of the biggest pulls of this deck is being able to outgrind most other midrange decks with Scrying Sheets, and she is the queen of grindy games.
Pyroclasm vs Anger of the Gods seems pretty arbitrary, and I could see why someone would want either. I chose Anger of the Gods because I run into Melira Pod a lot. Pyroclasm comboing with Boros Reckoner is nice, and makes it not COMPLETELY dead in the matchups where it's bad (just mostly). I would be hesitant to run a full 4 maindeck, but in certain metas it is definitely correct.
I've never had the unfortunate opportunity of playing against a Living End deck, but I can't imagine any real way for us to win. I also think that, because of how the deck operates, you would need so many sideboard slots to make that matchup not terrible that it just doesn't seem worth it.
How have the Vexing Shushers in the sideboard been? It seems like their purpose in the control matchup is to guarantee a Blood Moon landing to seal the deal. I have been running 2 Defense Grids, as they provide a similar effect while not dying to bolt. I'm sure there are some control decks that run more basics than the current UWR lists, but they don't seem very common. In what other common matchups do you bring them in?
Also what do you bring in from the sideboard in matchups where Blood Moon is bad?
I'm playing a version of this in my casual game. In that instance, would Cave-In and Anger of the Gods be an excellent sweep line? Cave-In is basically a free Pyroclasm and all...
I'm playing a version of this in my casual game. In that instance, would Cave-In and Anger of the Gods be an excellent sweep line? Cave-In is basically a free Pyroclasm and all...
Sadly, Cave-In is not modern legal. Quite a few of the lists in the thread play Anger of the Gods.
Hey, I'm really glad Boros Reckoner has been working out for you. I found myself hardly ever using the Skred combo because if my opponent was down low enough for it to kill them, I usually had a strong board presence (read: a Thundermaw Hellkite or Demigod of Revenge), and if they weren't low enough, then I wouldn't throw away my only creature to it. Also having it responded to with an opponent's removal was pretty devastating. That being said, I certainly have closed out games with it, and it is a good option to have. Both cards are certainly good on their own, I have just been a little frustrated with Boros Reckoner recently so I have been trying new things. That being said, if I were to buy a version of the deck today, it would be the mono red one, with 4 Boros Reckoner.
How worth it has Mouth of Ronom been? That's a card that I have been eyeing for a while, but never bothered to actually try out due to my mono red list running Demigod of Revenges. Have the 6 colorless sources gotten in the way of casting Boros Reckoner on time? I would certainly like to be able to get more value out of my lands in the late game, and that seems like a very good option that can also uncounterably interact with Splinter Twin (I've long been a fan of AEther Spellbomb in other decks for the same reason).
You can read in earlier posts about how much I like Chandra, Pyromaster in this deck, so I won't go into it too much, but one of the biggest pulls of this deck is being able to outgrind most other midrange decks with Scrying Sheets, and she is the queen of grindy games.
Pyroclasm vs Anger of the Gods seems pretty arbitrary, and I could see why someone would want either. I chose Anger of the Gods because I run into Melira Pod a lot. Pyroclasm comboing with Boros Reckoner is nice, and makes it not COMPLETELY dead in the matchups where it's bad (just mostly). I would be hesitant to run a full 4 maindeck, but in certain metas it is definitely correct.
I've never had the unfortunate opportunity of playing against a Living End deck, but I can't imagine any real way for us to win. I also think that, because of how the deck operates, you would need so many sideboard slots to make that matchup not terrible that it just doesn't seem worth it.
How have the Vexing Shushers in the sideboard been? It seems like their purpose in the control matchup is to guarantee a Blood Moon landing to seal the deal. I have been running 2 Defense Grids, as they provide a similar effect while not dying to bolt. I'm sure there are some control decks that run more basics than the current UWR lists, but they don't seem very common. In what other common matchups do you bring them in?
Also what do you bring in from the sideboard in matchups where Blood Moon is bad?
The skred combo is all fun and games when the reckoner swinging does 3, pyroclasm 2, a bolt 3, and skred closes with ~ 6 damage. It's some ridiculous damage potential in a turn. I also don't generally worry about removal, since I'll swing with Reckoner first, and if they wanted to and could remove it, they would have already done so.
I first began testing with 1 copy of Mouth and Ronom, and found it great. It saved me every now and then, against Restos, Deceivers, Spellskites, and Master of Waves, etc, and started running 2. I don't remember it being too awesome since D: It might be time to go back to 1. 6 colorless sources haven't been too hard to deal with. It does conflict with Reckoner at times, but Blood Moon helps with that a lot.
The grindy games with Scrying Sheets are pretty good for the deck.
It does die to Blood Moon a lot of the times, though, so having Pyromancer to plus even while Moon is around might be worth considering.
It would seem reasonable to have some graveyard hate, though.
If I ever end up feeling like losing Magus from the SB, I may consider siding some... Macabre Faeries lol.
Vexing Sushers have been ok. I bring them in to replace pyroclasm whenever I see counterspells, since that generally indicates that they don't have a lot of creatures to deal with. They also tend to come in if Blood Moon is absolutely useless, since they are still effectively bears if nothing else. Defense Grid is most probably the better choice if I want to shut out control decks completely, though.
Here's my more aggressive take on this type of deck...it's a nonSnow build, but it still runs on a principle of using burn spells to control the field.
The skred combo is all fun and games when the reckoner swinging does 3, pyroclasm 2, a bolt 3, and skred closes with ~ 6 damage. It's some ridiculous damage potential in a turn. I also don't generally worry about removal, since I'll swing with Reckoner first, and if they wanted to and could remove it, they would have already done so.
I first began testing with 1 copy of Mouth and Ronom, and found it great. It saved me every now and then, against Restos, Deceivers, Spellskites, and Master of Waves, etc, and started running 2. I don't remember it being too awesome since D: It might be time to go back to 1. 6 colorless sources haven't been too hard to deal with. It does conflict with Reckoner at times, but Blood Moon helps with that a lot.
The grindy games with Scrying Sheets are pretty good for the deck.
It does die to Blood Moon a lot of the times, though, so having Pyromancer to plus even while Moon is around might be worth considering.
It would seem reasonable to have some graveyard hate, though.
If I ever end up feeling like losing Magus from the SB, I may consider siding some... Macabre Faeries lol.
Vexing Sushers have been ok. I bring them in to replace pyroclasm whenever I see counterspells, since that generally indicates that they don't have a lot of creatures to deal with. They also tend to come in if Blood Moon is absolutely useless, since they are still effectively bears if nothing else. Defense Grid is most probably the better choice if I want to shut out control decks completely, though.
The Vexing Shusher choice is kind of intriguing me more... In my list, I have the anti-countermagic slots and the dude to replace Blood Moon slots as separate cards in my sideboard, and it definitely would be nice to consolidate them to make room for more other sideboard cards (like more graveyard hate).
An interesting option for the sideboard would be to run 4 Chalice of the Void, sideboarding it in against Living End and Bogles (Playing for 0 on Living End and 1 on Bogles). Those are arguably our worst two matchups, and two matchups where the Skreds are nearly worthless. I really don't like relying on landing a Pyroclasm against Bogles before they get their dude above 2 toughness. However, 4 slots in the sideboard is a lot for two relatively uncommon matchups.
As for graveyard hate, I'm rather fond of Relic of Progenitus. It's a nice mix of sustained graveyard hate and an instant reset button if you need it.
Anyways, this is my current list that I will be trying out for a while (trying 3 chalices):
Swans of Bryn Argoll take a pretty heavy commitment to white that would take away from the snow cards.
Not really. You can just run a few Snow Plains and a set of Arid Mesas. It would be better if there were a RW Snow dual, but I think between Reckoner being R/W, Coldsteel Heart, and Swans being a 2-4 of 4-drop with only 2 white, it shouldn't be that bad to splash it.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
IDK how effective Chalice at 0 will be for the Living End matchup.
Ingot Chewers gets through that one a little too easily.
I suppose the combination of relic and chalice could work, though.
Not really. You can just run a few Snow Plains and a set of Arid Mesas. It would be better if there were a RW Snow dual, but I think between Reckoner being R/W, Coldsteel Heart, and Swans being a 2-4 of 4-drop with only 2 white, it shouldn't be that bad to splash it.
I can vouch here - splashing colors is actually a joke in this deck. I played around with a version with one Island and a Steam Vents for a set of Snapcaster Mage (with the Tarmogoyfs), and they were never hard to cast; the only problem was that recurring Skred and Lightning Bolt wasn't strong enough compared to my other options (more Thundermaw). I'm seeing the same potential problems with Swans; it doesn't seem to do enough. For 4 mana I'd rather have a must-deal-with Planeswalker hit the field than something that can just be hit with Path to Exile.
Here's my more aggressive take on this type of deck...it's a nonSnow build, but it still runs on a principle of using burn spells to control the field.
I'm absolutely at a loss as to why you don't just run Snow mountains and switch out the Flame Slashes for Skreds. I'll reiterate that Skred is the cornerstone of the deck. Most red decks need to two-for-one themselves (i.e. double Lightning Bolt) to get rid of big creatures, but we can take out huge Tarmogoyfs for a measly red mana. In versions with Tarmogoyf, this gives us an edge since we can get rid of our opponent's Lhurgoyfs that much easier.
I read a post on the last page saying Goyf was frequently a 3/4. Really? He's almost always 4/5 for me by default, and against Mana Leak/Inquisition of Kozilek/Abrupt Decay/Liliana of the Veil (all cards I see a lot of in my meta) he gets really big, like 7/8. I think the main reason not to run him is the price tag. Skred Red is one of the cheaper decks in Modern but adding fetches and Tarmogoyf boosts the price by close to a grand (!!!).
Our worst matchups are non-creature-based combo decks (Storm, Living End) since we have no way of interacting with them. We can out-muscle most midrange, control, and tempo strategies, and pure aggro archetypes have a really hard time getting through all our removal. Merfolk is actually one of the better matchups IMO. Very funny how easy it is to beat Affinity, but Big Red is, after all, its natural enemy. Green gives us nice sideboard options for Bogle (Back to Nature).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
PtE your Swans-->Response, Skred. I'll draw 7 cards.
Seems like a value train. In certain situations, you can even have a fairly hefty wall against aggro beaters.
Really, Swans just seem broken here IF you can take advantage of the massive draw power, since getting +6-8 all at once doesn't help as much if you can't play them all at once.
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Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
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You're right. I've since tuned my list with some Coldsteel Hearts and it runs a lot smoother; Heart also ensures you can get green mana even if you can't find a Forest before rushing out a Blood Moon. I'm feeling a little underwhelmed by Grim Lavamancer in this list, so I cut his numbers down a bit. Current:
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
Other permanents (13)
4 Coldsteel Heart
3 Blood Moon
4 Koth of the Hammer
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Instants/Sorceries (14)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
4 Magma Jet
2 Anger of the Gods
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Stomping Ground
2 Scrying Sheets
PS: This list has 9 Creatures, 12 Instants, 2 Sorceries, 8 fetch lands, 3 Enchantments, 6 Planeswalkers, and 4 Artifacts, so Tarmogoyf has some ridiculous growth potential here - all he's missing is Tribal (unfortunately I don't think Tarfire is quite good enough). Spell Pierce.dec - which needs to counter most of these spells - can't really keep up if you resolve the Lhurgoyf. So far I'm really liking the feel. 4 Coldsteel, like with the monored lists, accelerate into Planeswalkers better than anything. Batterskull is awesome G2 against aggro, since they probably won't bring in artifact hate.
Edit - switched a Blood Moon out of the main for a fourth dragon. I'm thinking about a split with Stormbreath Dragon since Path to Exile is really the only thing that stops the creature suite here, but so far it hasn't been an issue.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Phyrexian Ironfoot was good for this deck because it could play either the offensive or the defensive. Tarmogoyf is much bigger, one mana cheaper, and though it can't play both roles simultaneously like Ironfoot could with a little extra mana, it plays the role of your choice significantly better. The ability to pressure combo and control players and wall aggro players with a single efficient creature is too good to pass up in this kind of control shell. Like the deck's Planeswalkers, opponents are usually forced to spend multiple cards getting rid of the Lhurgoyf, and with his addition the amount of answers they'll need adds up fast; I often find myself ahead by 3-4 cards after an opponent uses his whole hand to clear up the board, after which it's easy to clean up the mess with a Thundermaw Hellkite.
I've also been playing around with my mana. My land base right now looks like this:
3 Scrying Sheets
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Stomping Ground
12 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Coldsteel Heart
I took the Misty Rainforests down from 4 because I'd often find myself with too many, even though they're great for surviving your own Blood Moon. I almost never want to fetch the Stomping Ground; it's just there for smoothing if I need to rush out a Tarmogoyf and only have a Scalding Tarn in hand. We don't really need the UG fetchland maxed out, though, with two basic Forest and a set of Coldsteel Heart in the main.
Anger of the Gods is also really nice in the MD. Against decks like Pod it's usually right to let them build up a little presence over the first few turns and cast Anger as a 2-or-3-for-one, saving your one-for-one burn spells for later. Keep in mind that thanks to the exile clause, against creatures like Kitchen Finks it's really more of a two-for-one than an equal trade.
Not sure what our bad matchups are right now, so I'd love some feedback on that based on what you guys have been struggling with. I do know that we eat creature decks and control decks alive (especially of the multicolored variety). UWR is an easy match too, which positions us favorably against most of the field. Has anyone else tried Tarmogoyf?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Artifacts: 6
4 Coldsteel Heart
2 Batterskull
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
Instants and Sorceries: 14
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
3 Pyroclasm
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Dismember
4 Scrying Sheets
19 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Defense Grid
3 Combust
3 Sowing Salt
2 Volcanic Fallout
Sorry I haven't been on the forums much (at all) recently, but I've been finishing up my semester with finals and whatnot.
Been trying the RG version with goyf a bit myself, and WOW is he fantastic in this deck. He really fills a huge gap in the deck that I was having issues with before: the early creature plays. He is pretty much a perfect replacement for Boros Reckoner, whose "combo" with Skred I almost never actually used, and, as I mentioned a couple posts back, is actually pretty terrible in modern right now.
The manabase looks a lot better, as again, too many fetches are kind of a nonbo with Scrying Sheets. It also seems to indicate a strong departure from the Grim Lavamancer, who I also found to be a little underwhelming in this deck, as he is just a lot worse in decks without lots of Thoughtseize/Serum Visions-type early plays to go along with tons of fetches. Still pretty good in some matchups though, like creature-reliant combo decks such as Melira pod and any sort of attempted Delver deck.
As for matchups, I haven't done enough testing with the GR version yet, but I'll list some of the worse matchups I had with the mono red version from the lots of testing I did with that one.
-Storm was pretty bad, but almost no one plays that deck anymore.
-Bogles is obviously terrible, as we have almost no way to interact with them, and we don't really present enough of a clock to put the kind of pressure that deck needs. Blood Moon is good here, but usually comes down too late to matter. Green sideboard options such as Nature's Claim should help a bit.
-I had a little trouble with soul sisters actually, which has a pretty good matchup against most creature decks. A timely Anger of the Gods certainly puts the game away if they don't get the early Ascendant nut draw, but sometimes you don't have it. Also of note: this matchup gets much harder if your opponent plays around your burn with their ascendants. Tarmogoyf should help this matchup.
-Merfolk was a lot harder than I thought it would be, as I would expect that matchup to be a cakewalk with the amount of removal/sweepers we have, and Blood Moon for their Mutavaults. However, they can put so much power on the board out of nowhere that they can really take advantage of our pretty slow clock. Tarmogoyf also seems good here.
Those were the ones that stuck out to me that I hadn't really thought would be bad matchups before testing, but I imagine the GR version would be better than the mono R against most of them.
I think we have four options for planeswalkers in the GR version:
Koth of the Hammer: Provides a lot of immediate hasty pressure, while threatening a deadly ultimate very soon after coming down. Very good at taking out opposing planeswalkers or our opponent when our removal has cleared out most creatures. A very bad play when you are losing on the board to creatures.
Chandra, Pyromaster: Provides a very powerful card advantage engine that, when combined with Scrying Sheets, is able to bury opponents in sheer amount of cards. Also can occasionally ping relevant dudes and opposing planeswalkers. Also very bad when you are losing on the board.
Garruk Relentless: An interesting option provided by the green splash, this guy seems really strong here. Unlike the first two options, he is actually not terrible when you are losing on the board, while also providing pressure (although less than Koth) when you are ahead. The steady stream of wolves on his front side can protect himself, and his ability to take out an opposing threat is also a very strong option that can potentially allow us to start tutoring out Thundermaw Hellkites.
Xenagos the Reveler: Also provides the steady stream of 2/2s, but this time with haste. In exchange, it loses the ability to fight something and flip. Seems to be just worse than Garruk here, since it basically only has one ability in this deck. Kind of a mix between Garruk and Koth.
I think the right number of total planeswalkers is around 6-8, although a lot of them fill very different roles, so having a number for "planeswalker slots" doesn't seem quite right.
Has anyone played against the ninja-bear-delver deck that's really popular right now? I think that matchup is in our favor, but it's crazy fun, lots of back and forth.
I've been playing the following list for a while, and I find it enjoyable.
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Spitemare
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
Other permanents (12)
4 Coldsteel Heart
4 Blood Moon
4 Koth of the Hammer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
4 Magma Jet
4 Pyroclasm
Land (22)
2 Mouth of Ronom
4 Scrying Sheets
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
After seeing you guys go green, I've played around with that, as well, but I find it just isn't nearly as interesting to play as the mono red version, not to mention it's quite pricy compared to mono red's ~$100 price tag, if I should ever want to buy the deck. It's actually pretty hard to pull Tarm up on your own since artifacts and enchantments aren't so likely to hit grave unless your opponent discards/mills you, and you don't run that many sorceries, so Tarms generally end up being 2/3s or at best 3/4s. On the other hand, facing Jund/Junk could end up with a huge Tarm. I've had opponents ram me with 7/8 tarms on turn 4 or so.
I run pyroclasms over Anger of the Gods. It comes down a turn earlier, combos with my creatures better, and kills just as much stuff as Anger. Of course, it makes melirapod matchups harder for me, but I have really enjoyed playing these.
I like Boros Reckoner in this deck. The Skred combo actually gets pulled off every so often. The thing I like most about Reckoner is that once he hits the field, he usually represents an unavoidable 3 points of damage your opponent has to waste a card on. It also trades with just about any creature in competitive play, especially Tarm. He also combos with Pyroclasm oh so well. In fact, I liked him enough to run two copies of Spitemare, his lesser cousin by far. I was very skeptical of Spitemare at first, but I was looking for another threat in the 4 drop slot, and other options weren't doing too well in testing. Spitemare has done so-so, though I may try two copies of Pyromaster later.
As you can see, I run 8 moons between the main and side.
This comes much more from my love of Blood Moon rather than any practical reason, but as Moon kills a good number of decks on its own, having another 4 copies of it has come in useful.
Vexing Susher is cute for control matchups. Although it usually eats a bolt more often than not, it helps stick blood moons and planeswalkers, on which you can just ride to victory vs control. It also helps that the deck's threats are all more or less answer-or-die. Modern control decks actually don't have much access to reliable counters, and having to counter everything you play makes control match ups actually not too bad. Still, Susher is there if you need him.
Matchups:
GRTron - Stick a moon, then kill as quickly as possible. Not a great matchup.
UTron - Actually feels worse than even facing GRTron. Sticking a moon is harder, and it often means absolutely nothing.
Bogle - I actually won most of my Bogle matchups thanks to early pyroclasms and blood moon. But is generally a pretty terrible matchup.
Merfolk - There were loads and loads of merfolks when I was testing, for some reason. These games generally went well with all the removal. If pyroclasm hits, it generally ends in my favor, as well.
Melirapod/Kikipod - Hard time dealing with the creatures. Somehow the Kikipod matchups generally go easier than the Melirapod ones.
Splintertwin - Draw a lot of removal for the win.
Affinity - Another early pyro for the win matchup. Shatterstorm over Shattering Spree because red simply can't deal with Etched Champion otherwise.
Jund/Junk - I've lost against these decks maybe once. Stick a Blood Moon and they'll die eventually.
Control - Stick a moon or Koth and they die.
Living End - this matchup is unwinnable. Seriously. I might get lucky vs a badly built one, but it stands no chance against a well-built living end deck.
That's about it. Thoughts and comments appreciated.
Basic 82: Hayate the Combat Butler Mafia
Town Doctor, NK N1
Mini: Drury Lane Mafia
Replaced out D1
Mafia "Stuffer"
Basic 80: Sesame Street Mafia
Town Mason, NK N1
Scum Victory
Basic 68: Mr. Potato Head Mafia
Replacing Marblez D2
Town Vanilla, Lynched Last Day (D6)
Scum Victory
Mini: Eeveelution Mafia
Town Umbreon, Modkilled D1
Scum Victory
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Town Necromancer, NK N1
Town Victory
Hey, I'm really glad Boros Reckoner has been working out for you. I found myself hardly ever using the Skred combo because if my opponent was down low enough for it to kill them, I usually had a strong board presence (read: a Thundermaw Hellkite or Demigod of Revenge), and if they weren't low enough, then I wouldn't throw away my only creature to it. Also having it responded to with an opponent's removal was pretty devastating. That being said, I certainly have closed out games with it, and it is a good option to have. Both cards are certainly good on their own, I have just been a little frustrated with Boros Reckoner recently so I have been trying new things. That being said, if I were to buy a version of the deck today, it would be the mono red one, with 4 Boros Reckoner.
How worth it has Mouth of Ronom been? That's a card that I have been eyeing for a while, but never bothered to actually try out due to my mono red list running Demigod of Revenges. Have the 6 colorless sources gotten in the way of casting Boros Reckoner on time? I would certainly like to be able to get more value out of my lands in the late game, and that seems like a very good option that can also uncounterably interact with Splinter Twin (I've long been a fan of AEther Spellbomb in other decks for the same reason).
You can read in earlier posts about how much I like Chandra, Pyromaster in this deck, so I won't go into it too much, but one of the biggest pulls of this deck is being able to outgrind most other midrange decks with Scrying Sheets, and she is the queen of grindy games.
Pyroclasm vs Anger of the Gods seems pretty arbitrary, and I could see why someone would want either. I chose Anger of the Gods because I run into Melira Pod a lot. Pyroclasm comboing with Boros Reckoner is nice, and makes it not COMPLETELY dead in the matchups where it's bad (just mostly). I would be hesitant to run a full 4 maindeck, but in certain metas it is definitely correct.
I've never had the unfortunate opportunity of playing against a Living End deck, but I can't imagine any real way for us to win. I also think that, because of how the deck operates, you would need so many sideboard slots to make that matchup not terrible that it just doesn't seem worth it.
How have the Vexing Shushers in the sideboard been? It seems like their purpose in the control matchup is to guarantee a Blood Moon landing to seal the deal. I have been running 2 Defense Grids, as they provide a similar effect while not dying to bolt. I'm sure there are some control decks that run more basics than the current UWR lists, but they don't seem very common. In what other common matchups do you bring them in?
Also what do you bring in from the sideboard in matchups where Blood Moon is bad?
Sadly, Cave-In is not modern legal. Quite a few of the lists in the thread play Anger of the Gods.
The skred combo is all fun and games when the reckoner swinging does 3, pyroclasm 2, a bolt 3, and skred closes with ~ 6 damage. It's some ridiculous damage potential in a turn. I also don't generally worry about removal, since I'll swing with Reckoner first, and if they wanted to and could remove it, they would have already done so.
I first began testing with 1 copy of Mouth and Ronom, and found it great. It saved me every now and then, against Restos, Deceivers, Spellskites, and Master of Waves, etc, and started running 2. I don't remember it being too awesome since D: It might be time to go back to 1. 6 colorless sources haven't been too hard to deal with. It does conflict with Reckoner at times, but Blood Moon helps with that a lot.
The grindy games with Scrying Sheets are pretty good for the deck.
It does die to Blood Moon a lot of the times, though, so having Pyromancer to plus even while Moon is around might be worth considering.
It would seem reasonable to have some graveyard hate, though.
If I ever end up feeling like losing Magus from the SB, I may consider siding some... Macabre Faeries lol.
Vexing Sushers have been ok. I bring them in to replace pyroclasm whenever I see counterspells, since that generally indicates that they don't have a lot of creatures to deal with. They also tend to come in if Blood Moon is absolutely useless, since they are still effectively bears if nothing else. Defense Grid is most probably the better choice if I want to shut out control decks completely, though.
Basic 82: Hayate the Combat Butler Mafia
Town Doctor, NK N1
Mini: Drury Lane Mafia
Replaced out D1
Mafia "Stuffer"
Basic 80: Sesame Street Mafia
Town Mason, NK N1
Scum Victory
Basic 68: Mr. Potato Head Mafia
Replacing Marblez D2
Town Vanilla, Lynched Last Day (D6)
Scum Victory
Mini: Eeveelution Mafia
Town Umbreon, Modkilled D1
Scum Victory
Mini: Deitriptychos Mafia
Town Necromancer, NK N1
Town Victory
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
Planeswalker: 4
4 Koth of the Hammer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Flame Slash
3 Magma Jet
3 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
24 Mountain
3 Combust
2 Blood Moon
3 Shatterstorm
4 Leyline of Punishment
3 Defense Grid
Wither on Ram-Gang can help bring troublesome creatures into burn range.
The Vexing Shusher choice is kind of intriguing me more... In my list, I have the anti-countermagic slots and the dude to replace Blood Moon slots as separate cards in my sideboard, and it definitely would be nice to consolidate them to make room for more other sideboard cards (like more graveyard hate).
An interesting option for the sideboard would be to run 4 Chalice of the Void, sideboarding it in against Living End and Bogles (Playing for 0 on Living End and 1 on Bogles). Those are arguably our worst two matchups, and two matchups where the Skreds are nearly worthless. I really don't like relying on landing a Pyroclasm against Bogles before they get their dude above 2 toughness. However, 4 slots in the sideboard is a lot for two relatively uncommon matchups.
As for graveyard hate, I'm rather fond of Relic of Progenitus. It's a nice mix of sustained graveyard hate and an instant reset button if you need it.
Anyways, this is my current list that I will be trying out for a while (trying 3 chalices):
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Demigod of Revenge
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Koth of the Hammer
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Coldsteel Heart
3 Blood Moon
4 Skred
2 Magma Jet
3 Pyroclasm
Lands (24)
1 Mouth of Ronom
3 Scrying Sheets
20 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Blood Moon
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Shattering Spree
I would like to make room in the sideboard for some number of Torpor Orb.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Not really. You can just run a few Snow Plains and a set of Arid Mesas. It would be better if there were a RW Snow dual, but I think between Reckoner being R/W, Coldsteel Heart, and Swans being a 2-4 of 4-drop with only 2 white, it shouldn't be that bad to splash it.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Ingot Chewers gets through that one a little too easily.
I suppose the combination of relic and chalice could work, though.
Basic 82: Hayate the Combat Butler Mafia
Town Doctor, NK N1
Mini: Drury Lane Mafia
Replaced out D1
Mafia "Stuffer"
Basic 80: Sesame Street Mafia
Town Mason, NK N1
Scum Victory
Basic 68: Mr. Potato Head Mafia
Replacing Marblez D2
Town Vanilla, Lynched Last Day (D6)
Scum Victory
Mini: Eeveelution Mafia
Town Umbreon, Modkilled D1
Scum Victory
Mini: Deitriptychos Mafia
Town Necromancer, NK N1
Town Victory
I can vouch here - splashing colors is actually a joke in this deck. I played around with a version with one Island and a Steam Vents for a set of Snapcaster Mage (with the Tarmogoyfs), and they were never hard to cast; the only problem was that recurring Skred and Lightning Bolt wasn't strong enough compared to my other options (more Thundermaw). I'm seeing the same potential problems with Swans; it doesn't seem to do enough. For 4 mana I'd rather have a must-deal-with Planeswalker hit the field than something that can just be hit with Path to Exile.
I'm absolutely at a loss as to why you don't just run Snow mountains and switch out the Flame Slashes for Skreds. I'll reiterate that Skred is the cornerstone of the deck. Most red decks need to two-for-one themselves (i.e. double Lightning Bolt) to get rid of big creatures, but we can take out huge Tarmogoyfs for a measly red mana. In versions with Tarmogoyf, this gives us an edge since we can get rid of our opponent's Lhurgoyfs that much easier.
I read a post on the last page saying Goyf was frequently a 3/4. Really? He's almost always 4/5 for me by default, and against Mana Leak/Inquisition of Kozilek/Abrupt Decay/Liliana of the Veil (all cards I see a lot of in my meta) he gets really big, like 7/8. I think the main reason not to run him is the price tag. Skred Red is one of the cheaper decks in Modern but adding fetches and Tarmogoyf boosts the price by close to a grand (!!!).
Our worst matchups are non-creature-based combo decks (Storm, Living End) since we have no way of interacting with them. We can out-muscle most midrange, control, and tempo strategies, and pure aggro archetypes have a really hard time getting through all our removal. Merfolk is actually one of the better matchups IMO. Very funny how easy it is to beat Affinity, but Big Red is, after all, its natural enemy. Green gives us nice sideboard options for Bogle (Back to Nature).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Seems like a value train. In certain situations, you can even have a fairly hefty wall against aggro beaters.
Really, Swans just seem broken here IF you can take advantage of the massive draw power, since getting +6-8 all at once doesn't help as much if you can't play them all at once.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.