Trolling or not the mindcrank combo definately does not belong in 8Rack if only for the very big and multi-tentacled issue that our worse match-up runs eldrazi titans.
We don't want to be WORSE vs. RGTron, we wanna be better.
Duskmante doesn't do anything on his own. Pack Rat at least proactively puts pressure on the board. Besides, I don't even play Pack Rat, so...
Anyway, look at the following scenarios: You've managed to clear his board and hand. You are both in topdeck mode. Does that seem like a familiar 8Rack game so far? Good.
You draw a removal spell/land/another creature. Ok, still can't do anything.
Fastforward to the point where you draw Mindcrank, even if it was the turn after Duskmantle.
You still can't do ***** because you need a card that actually makes the opponent discard or lose life.
All this time he has been developing his board and putting pressure on you, while you... wait. Unless, of course, you can afford to activate the Mage's 1st ability, then his 2nd ability and and play the second combo piece (both are 2 mana so it doesn't matter if you already have Mindcrank or Guildmage present on the board). That's only 9 mana! You are waiting turns to topdeck what you need.
Literally any card you draw turns into a 2/2 attacker, then a 3/3 attacker, then a 4/4 attacker...
You are proactively putting pressure. You are the threat that needs to be answered.
All this time you are developing a lethal board.
Scenario one: You don't interact with the game. The only way to prevent losing is to hope to assemble an infinite damage combo.
Scenario two: You are winning the game unless stopped (by an infinite damage combo, perhaps).
Yes, Splinter Twin is a combo deck as well. They, too, have to resolve combo pieces one by one. Notable (probably unimportant) differences:
- It's in colours that allow them to protect their combo.
- Their combo takes 4 mana on the second turn, instead of 9.
- They can put Twin on more than one creature, making it a lot more consistent.
- Did I mention they can protect their combo pieces?
- They can potentially combo off in one turn (on your end step and then in their main phase).
So, yea, Mindcrank Guildmage can not be even remotely compared to Twin.
Btw, Splinter Twin was played during it's time in Standard and it did very well. In fact, after Jace and Stoneforge got banned, it was the deck at one point and never really fell off until it rotated out.
Look, if you want to play the combo, fine. But why do you people try to slam everything new you see (or think of) into 8Rack? Some of your crazy hundred-card combos may work just fine to become a tier 1 deck, but damn, there is a proper shell for everything. On top of all that, this requires you to make a blue splash. Why not play it in an already-UB deck? I don't see you posting this over on the UBx Fae thread? Why is that, doesn't it work well there? You can even play an attrition game with them to protect your combo.
@esperino: Know what? Don't like it, don't play it. I'm not your dad. Play whatever you want. When you win something let us all know so we can rejoice in the success of the deck. By the way, twin wasn't played in standard until deceiver exarch got printed. Even then it wasn't good until Jace and stoneforge left. If you don't have your combo pieces there's no combo. Were DG and mindcrank both in standard at the same time, you don't think it would have been played? Let's gloss over the fact that there are plenty of cards that are terrible in standard but very solid in modern.
@sirius: Whether this helps against RG tron is unclear. The combo adds a huge boost in speed if you assemble it early, potentially ending the game on turn 4. 8rack can't do that ever against anyone. I haven't played this enough to know how consistent it is.
Holy cow, you guys are acting like I'm tearing apart the deck and turning it into some unwieldy monstrosity. I can tell you right now from playing it I have more matches that are essentially straight 8rack game plan by about a 90:10 ratio. It's still 8rack. 32 of the 38 cards say so. Keep calm etc.
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Duskmante doesn't do anything on his own. Pack Rat at least proactively puts pressure on the board. Besides, I don't even play Pack Rat, so...
Anyway, look at the following scenarios: You've managed to clear his board and hand. You are both in topdeck mode. Does that seem like a familiar 8Rack game so far? Good.
You draw a removal spell/land/another creature. Ok, still can't do anything.
Fastforward to the point where you draw Mindcrank, even if it was the turn after Duskmantle.
You still can't do ***** because you need a card that actually makes the opponent discard or lose life.
All this time he has been developing his board and putting pressure on you, while you... wait. Unless, of course, you can afford to activate the Mage's 1st ability, then his 2nd ability and and play the second combo piece (both are 2 mana so it doesn't matter if you already have Mindcrank or Guildmage present on the board). That's only 9 mana! You are waiting turns to topdeck what you need.
Literally any card you draw turns into a 2/2 attacker, then a 3/3 attacker, then a 4/4 attacker...
You are proactively putting pressure. You are the threat that needs to be answered.
All this time you are developing a lethal board.
Taking scenarios out of context like this is pointless. Unless you want to calculate all possible scenarios in the entire format and determine which card is better. I can take a reasonable scenario out of context too:
- You have mindcrank in play and draw guildmage with 5 lands in play. Now your opponent can't let a single card enter their graveyard or they instantly lose. They can't even cast a removal spell because you can activate in response.
VS
- You have a dead discard spell (replacing mindcrank) in hand and draw a pack rat with 5 lands in play. Now, assuming one of the rats lives and assuming your opponent gives you 2 turns to build up the rats, you can win.
I don't believe the combo is good here, but immediately dismissing it outright based on the fact that it's sometimes bad is just wrong.
5 lands in play? Oh, no problem, an understandable confusion. You might have failed to notice this is the 8Rack thread. We use lands for consistent discard, not to sink mana into potential card value. Some of the folks here play Pack Rat, I know, but even they don't often run around with 5 mana open. Rat is a card that needs a couple of turns to really get going and everybody realises that and doesn't include it in the deck with the purpose of making a token the moment it lands.
Hey everyone! It has been a long time since I've posted, but I have been following the thread. I played 8rack yesterday in Indianapolis in the SCG Premier IQ, and got 19th out of 150+ players. Sorry, I am still relatively unfamiliar with mtgs and don't know how to properly format my deck like everyone does, but here's my list:
I'll do another post soon going through my match ups. I will say one thing I'm taking out orb and cage for 3 spellskite. There were so many matches where I wish I still had them in my board.
So far, everyone has been doing a good job of being respectful and constructively criticizing/proposing ideas. But there are a few posts here that are on very thin ice. So just keep it civil, don't take things personally / make things personal, and keep up the good development.
We have someone in mind to take over the OP and hopefully that will pan out before the end of the week.
@i_am_outerspace: gratz on your finish. I read darkslick shores in your list, as in the BU Scars of Mirrodin fast land. Is that correct? It seems odd unless I am missing something.
5 lands in play? Oh, no problem, an understandable confusion. You might have failed to notice this is the 8Rack thread. We use lands for consistent discard, not to sink mana into potential card value.
You never have 5 lands up? Not ever. You always get raven's crime or liliana on the board? Never been flooded? Or are you holding lands? That's not going to work with bridge down.
I'm not sure entirely what the problem is, but you seem to have a concrete notion that the deck must be a particular build or none at all. I appreciate your loyalty to the creator's dream. Some us aren't so rigid.
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@DOLZero: Thanks! And that was actually a mistake haha. I use to have spellskite in my 75, but had removed them before Indy, and just never took out the Shores. It didn't hurt me and honestly it was a good, albeit unintentional, ploy that put opponent's on a slight tilt because they would see blue sources in game 1 but no blue cards. I doubt it really played too much of factor on their gameplay but it ended up being a fun lil mind game. Everyone always asked what the blue was for.
And skites are definitely going back in the board.
@Destroyermaker: Feel like taking over the 8Rack primer? Ideally I'd want MemoryLapse, but... anyway, out of the rest of us here, you have the best qualifications (even making videos, wouldn't hurt to have a new and updated primer video sometime in the future). I thought of doing it but I have plans for my own primer on Esper later down the line.
Yes, I've applied to do so. Last I checked I'm in consideration for it. If I'm accepted, I plan on making a much better designed primer, while still retaining a lot of the old, relevant information. Either way, MemoryLapse has told me previously he'll stay in contact with me about the deck, although it's possible he's changed his mind since.
On another note, to supplement what ktkenshinx said, you really need to be less aggressive when disagreeing with people. Just disagree calmly and keep the personal attacks out of it, if only because people are far, far more likely to consider your position for it. If you can't do that, then just don't reply to posts that make you aggressive. I really don't want to see this thread end up like the last one, and posts like yours worry me it will.
Hey everyone! It has been a long time since I've posted, but I have been following the thread. I played 8rack yesterday in Indianapolis in the SCG Premier IQ, and got 19th out of 150+ players. Sorry, I am still relatively unfamiliar with mtgs and don't know how to properly format my deck like everyone does, but here's my list:
I'll do another post soon going through my match ups. I will say one thing I'm taking out orb and cage for 3 spellskite. There were so many matches where I wish I still had them in my board.
Great to see a nice paper finish, even if it's at a smaller event. To format properly, just use the [deck] [/ deck] tags (no spaces), or the deck tag button. Please post a link to official results if/when possible.
OK I'll refrain myself more. The thing is, people come and see some... "interesting" suggestions here and if nobody stands up as the voice of reason they might try them in an event or something... then we'll have the Jan Miller problem all over again. Walking on thin ice is fine as long as you don't start running and crack it, the way I see it at least.
But I hear you and I'll be more open to... ummm... y'know.
I fully encourage you to shoot down bad ideas, just do so calmly and constructively; people are much more interested in listening to someone who is composed and confident than angry and aggressive. The latter just makes them not want to listen at all, even if you're 100% right. Empathize.
"Walking on thin ice is fine as long as you don't start running and crack it, the way I see it at least."
It's really not. Forums don't work that way; it just leads to things spiraling out of control as they did in the previous thread. There's no good reason not to be calm, and plenty of good reasons to be.
At Esperino, I didn't realize there was going to be another thread after this. I fully agree that the info of splashes should be put there. Maybe worked into the primer when that's all written.
I too think that manlands are essential for the deck. I've tried going without them, but we absolutely need the flexibility gained from manlands. Monoblack doesn't get a ton of manland options, and I was always sad they never printed a set of Enemy colour manlands like the worldwake ones. I can't see myself cutting Mutavault until we get something like a B/G Raging Ravine/Celestial Colonade/Creeping Tar Pit. Even then, the interaction with Rat is strong enough they may not make the cut.
As for the combo, I don't think it's useful. When you look at decks that combo well, you see that all the combo pieces have uses outside of the combo. I don't see that with MindCrank. I don't see that we have ways of searching them, and they're dead topdecks without the other piece in play. If we're playing something that needs to get answered, I'd rather play Pack Rat. There is a lot of synergy between Pack Rat and Bridge. I don't know why people call it a nonbo. Having a way to develop your board, and keep all your opponents mans at bay is what we need. It even provides redundancy in the even that bridge is busted up.
As I've said before, I really do think we should be trying to figure out some ways of testing together. I think it would be good, and go some length to help strengthen the 8rack community, better learn matchups, etc.
Lastly, congrats on the finish, i_am_outerspace! I'd love to hear where you board in Spellskite. I think it's great that the deck get's to more paper events. I looked on the MTG site and the closest thing for 500mi around me is Duel of the Planeswalkers 2015....
Edit: @Sled-dog - if you really feel like the deck needs a combo finish that should be going into the sideboard. A transformational sideboard for g2/3 would be better than going half in one line half in the other.
Just a heads up for anyone interested: You can still feel free to PM me if you want my opinion on any ideas or lists you have (several folks have have been asking already). I hope Destroyer gets to take over the primer, but whoever ends up with it I'd appreciate a tag line in there somewhere letting people know they can PM me whenever with questions. You can also link my youtube channel, or to any specific videos you want. Theres about 300 8rack replays to reference.
I may eventually think about starting a new "official" primer on a different website if there is interest, but mostly I will be keeping all of my future development to myself and just PMing pals I have on here if I make any breakthroughs (testing something interesting now actually).
At Esperino, I didn't realize there was going to be another thread after this. I fully agree that the info of splashes should be put there. Maybe worked into the primer when that's all written.
I too think that manlands are essential for the deck. I've tried going without them, but we absolutely need the flexibility gained from manlands. Monoblack doesn't get a ton of manland options, and I was always sad they never printed a set of Enemy colour manlands like the worldwake ones. I can't see myself cutting Mutavault until we get something like a B/G Raging Ravine/Celestial Colonade/Creeping Tar Pit. Even then, the interaction with Rat is strong enough they may not make the cut.
As for the combo, I don't think it's useful. When you look at decks that combo well, you see that all the combo pieces have uses outside of the combo. I don't see that with MindCrank. I don't see that we have ways of searching them, and they're dead topdecks without the other piece in play. If we're playing something that needs to get answered, I'd rather play Pack Rat. There is a lot of synergy between Pack Rat and Bridge. I don't know why people call it a nonbo. Having a way to develop your board, and keep all your opponents mans at bay is what we need. It even provides redundancy in the even that bridge is busted up.
As I've said before, I really do think we should be trying to figure out some ways of testing together. I think it would be good, and go some length to help strengthen the 8rack community, better learn matchups, etc.
Lastly, congrats on the finish, i_am_outerspace! I'd love to hear where you board in Spellskite. I think it's great that the deck get's to more paper events. I looked on the MTG site and the closest thing for 500mi around me is Duel of the Planeswalkers 2015....
Edit: @Sled-dog - if you really feel like the deck needs a combo finish that should be going into the sideboard. A transformational sideboard for g2/3 would be better than going half in one line half in the other.
You know, that's sort of what I was thinking when the idea came to me; not changing the main board around, but having a package like you list to change things up. For the sake of testing I'm running the package main and it's very interesting. As I play more I'm getting numbers figured out, and win % is getting better too. The games I'm losing right now are more about my questionable play, unfortunate draws (lots of flooding lately), or just flat out getting whooped. The combo won a match for me against pod, another against scapeshift, and the threat of it had UW control scoop. Mindcrank does work even if the combo doesn't. I'm seeing a lot of games end with me sitting on 40+ cards in library, opponent with maybe half that. So consider that while not directly contributing to a win, it deprives the opponent of resources. It's not a turn 2 drop unless you have the combo in hand. I wait until I have racks about to activate before playing it. I do mulligan more aggressively with this build than with std 8rack. Before I'd often keep one land hands, now it really depends on what the hand is made of.
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I still just really don't like either of those cards without the combo. Mindcrank to me seems like a Mill Deck. You fill up their gravyard which isn't winning you the game. Duskmantle costs so much to activate. You need to be making them discard and activating him to get real damage in, and even then it'll be +1 liliana, and maybe a wrench mind or something for 3 damage. That's looking at the cards separately, which you need to do when you're not comboing out with them. I don't think they do enough to be played MB, and they need to do a whole hell of a lot SB to replace the other cards we're using in the SB.
What lists are they really helping against?
How are you siding in for our toughest matches?
What decks are you "just flat out getting whooped?"
Edit: Also, just a shot in the dark here but how do people feel about Exquisite Blood? Honestly the cost is so overwhelming, but it would activate whenever:
we hit with pack rat for a lot
each rack activation
we swing with mutavault
they pay to have a shockland come in untapped
they crack a fetch
pay 2 life for phyrexian mana.
play a thoughtseize or the like
It seems like it might end up just being cute, but maybe as a 1 of or something, and one 1 sb. I feel like the games we lose are typically the ones where we stabilize, but just at too low of a life total. With the Racks/Affliction hitting every turn we'd be gaining 1-6 life/turn. I'm not sure if that outweighs the fact that we'll struggle so hard to cast it at 5. I feel like this is the card that 8rack needs. But it needs it to cost 1 less.
@destroyermaker thanks for the tip. I checked out SCG but they only show top 16.
My results from Indy:
MATCH 1 vs RUG Scapeshift
Game 1 (loss)- I had emptied his hand relatively quickly, but I was a little slow getting any racks out. It ended becoming a top deck battle where he was taking 6 a turn from my racks. He slowly accumulated land and ramp and eventually top decked Scapeshift for the win. Oh well.
Game 2 (Win)- I was able to surgical extraction Scapeshift on turn 2 after discarding it turn 1. My opponent also had 3 cryptics in his hand foreshadow. Anyone who's played Scapeshift knows that they bring heavy hitters post-board so the game was far from over. A few turns later I played raven's crime twice and one of the cards he discarded was a cryptic command. I hit the command with another extraction, thus taking the other two out of his hand. I remained in firm control from there on.
Game 3 (Win)- It's better to be lucky than good. This game was so dramatic. I eventually had 4 4/4 pack rats on the board, but also had bridge. However I had gotten damage under my own bridge by swinging with Rats while at 1/1 and 2/2 and discarding a card mid-attack to pump. I was at 1 life for six turns and all he needed was a mountain or a ramp spell to win (scapeshift had been extracted). It came down to one last turn where we were both at 1 life. Him needing a mountain and me with 2 racks. He drew a forest! And lost at his next upkeep.
Record: 1-0
MATCH 2 vs Burn
Game 1 (Win): This game was the equivalent of two boxers foregoing blocking/defense and just smashing one another in the face. Obviously his hand was emptied quickly between the two of us doing our thing. I got 2 racks out very quickly. And he was put on a 3 turn clock around turn 4. Once again it came down to one turn. Both of our hands were empty I was at 3 life, and he would go to 2 after taking 6 at his next upkeep. He needs a burn spell. Draws vexing devil.
Game 2 (Win): My opening hand has 2 leyline of sanctity in it. The disappointment on his face can't be overstated. He turned 1 goblin guide and I got a land off my deck. My draw ended up being darkblast. I kill his goblin guide and he did pretty much nothing afterwards.
Record: 2-0
MATCH 3 vs RUG Scapeshift
Game 1 (Loss)- This match was actually against my friend who I went to Indy with. I had an amazing 7 card opener and was feeling good. But the flood happened and I never saw raven's crime.
Game 2 (Loss)- I mulled to six and decided to take a chancy hand. It had mutavault and pack rat, I kept it, because since this was my friend I knew his deck well. He plays 0 bolts and 0 anger. So I was going to try and aggro him to death. I turned two rats but he had 1 of his 3 izzet charm in his hand and killed it before i untapped. That was unfortunate. I was able to get him down to 8 with mutavault. I knew he had 2 scapeshift in hand, but I never saw another discard spell (after my turn 1 IoK) to get his scapeshifts (I had the extraction). This match would be the worst my deck performed all day.
Record: 2-1
MATCH 4 vs RUG Midrange/Tempo
Game 1 (Win)- The deck played phenomenally. He basically did nothing and was just overrun by rats and racks.
Game 2 (Loss)- It was an extremely tight match. He gained at least 12 life from huntmaster of the fells. He had 7 land, a tarmogoyf, snapcaster mage, and 8 wolf tokens when ultimated Lili. It eventually came down to variance/luck. He fetched, shuffled, I cut his deck. His top card was hurkyl's recall which put my rack and bridge back to my hand. He then swung for 8 putting me at 8 life. My next turn I play bridge again. His next draw is another Snapcaster.
Game 3 (Loss)- Nothing too special about this game. It was good, ancient grudge got him the victory here.
Record: 2-2
I'll do the final four rounds in a different post to make it a little easier to look at.
Well, I have to be judicious about when I play DG. For example it's been part of winning combos, but it's also chumped to give time for racks to win a race, it's attacked for damage to speed up a race, there's some utility to it just as a 2/2 for 2. The cost to activate is what it is, the same cost to make another rat, but if I'm activating DG I'm winning, there's not a reason to do it otherwise. The only decks I wouldn't use mindcrank against is something like dredgevine, reanimator, that sort of thing. I haven't faced a gifts deck yet, so I'm not sure how I'd approach that, probably take out the combo and play like reg. 8rack, add in echoing truth to deal with unburial rites Iona. I'm still maybe just 15 matches into this deck, not enough time to instinctively side in stuff.
The decks that whooped me so far have been BG rock (obliterator), GW pod spike/angel combo (that got dropped on me twice), and UB Shouta Tez just this AM, though that did go 3 games, his wins were one sided. Interesting...I've had an odd % of people win game one against me then quit, more than normal. I'm not sure if that means they didn't feel like it was a good match for them, they hate playing against discard, wasn't worth their time, or what. Those whoopins were pretty straightforward losses, ones I had no answer for, and feels like I would have loss even with the monoblack build. The BG loss was unreal. It was like a perfect curve with perfect cards. Something like birds, finks, obliterator, abrupt decay...gross.
Today I'm doing pretty well, 5-1 with the one loss being that Tez match. Sideboard is in flux because I'm still getting a feel for the deck, but against aggro (zoo, merfolk, etc) I bring in damnation, burn or discard gets leyline of Sanctity, Torpor Orb for Twin, grafdigger for pod or any other GY hating. The extra mindcrank comes in when I think I need to win quickly so BG/pod/tron, the extra echoing truth for anything I think might run it's own leyline of sanctity, blood moon, or tokens (it even stalls twin, kiki can reset).
The best I can say is there is some promise but it's a work in progress. If I were a better player I might have an answer sooner.
You know, that's sort of what I was thinking when the idea came to me; not changing the main board around, but having a package like you list to change things up. For the sake of testing I'm running the package main and it's very interesting. As I play more I'm getting numbers figured out, and win % is getting better too. The games I'm losing right now are more about my questionable play, unfortunate draws (lots of flooding lately), or just flat out getting whooped. The combo won a match for me against pod, another against scapeshift, and the threat of it had UW control scoop. Mindcrank does work even if the combo doesn't. I'm seeing a lot of games end with me sitting on 40+ cards in library, opponent with maybe half that. So consider that while not directly contributing to a win, it deprives the opponent of resources. It's not a turn 2 drop unless you have the combo in hand. I wait until I have racks about to activate before playing it. I do mulligan more aggressively with this build than with std 8rack. Before I'd often keep one land hands, now it really depends on what the hand is made of.
If we want to splash blue for a sideboard plan, we should look at other options blue brings. I have a list I've been testing on cockatrice that's been working pretty well and the combo is perfect for the sideboard.
The other blue cards I'm experimenting with:
- Trinket Mage: This guy's been reasonable as additional copies of rack that can also block or get something else useful if you already have a rack in hand.
- Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas: He's a solid planeswalker that helps us find the artifacts we need and provides a backup wincon.
- Academy Ruins: Recurring racks/bridges is insane. I've won several games I likely would have lost against pod/BGx decks when my opponent destroyed my rack or bridge this way. I haven't had a chance to use it with Executioner's Capsule.
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We don't want to be WORSE vs. RGTron, we wanna be better.
Anyway, look at the following scenarios: You've managed to clear his board and hand. You are both in topdeck mode. Does that seem like a familiar 8Rack game so far? Good.
Scenario one: You don't interact with the game. The only way to prevent losing is to hope to assemble an infinite damage combo.
Scenario two: You are winning the game unless stopped (by an infinite damage combo, perhaps).
Yes, Splinter Twin is a combo deck as well. They, too, have to resolve combo pieces one by one. Notable (probably unimportant) differences:
- It's in colours that allow them to protect their combo.
- Their combo takes 4 mana on the second turn, instead of 9.
- They can put Twin on more than one creature, making it a lot more consistent.
- Did I mention they can protect their combo pieces?
- They can potentially combo off in one turn (on your end step and then in their main phase).
So, yea, Mindcrank Guildmage can not be even remotely compared to Twin.
Btw, Splinter Twin was played during it's time in Standard and it did very well. In fact, after Jace and Stoneforge got banned, it was the deck at one point and never really fell off until it rotated out.
Look, if you want to play the combo, fine. But why do you people try to slam everything new you see (or think of) into 8Rack? Some of your crazy hundred-card combos may work just fine to become a tier 1 deck, but damn, there is a proper shell for everything. On top of all that, this requires you to make a blue splash. Why not play it in an already-UB deck? I don't see you posting this over on the UBx Fae thread? Why is that, doesn't it work well there? You can even play an attrition game with them to protect your combo.
@sirius: Whether this helps against RG tron is unclear. The combo adds a huge boost in speed if you assemble it early, potentially ending the game on turn 4. 8rack can't do that ever against anyone. I haven't played this enough to know how consistent it is.
Holy cow, you guys are acting like I'm tearing apart the deck and turning it into some unwieldy monstrosity. I can tell you right now from playing it I have more matches that are essentially straight 8rack game plan by about a 90:10 ratio. It's still 8rack. 32 of the 38 cards say so. Keep calm etc.
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Taking scenarios out of context like this is pointless. Unless you want to calculate all possible scenarios in the entire format and determine which card is better. I can take a reasonable scenario out of context too:
- You have mindcrank in play and draw guildmage with 5 lands in play. Now your opponent can't let a single card enter their graveyard or they instantly lose. They can't even cast a removal spell because you can activate in response.
VS
- You have a dead discard spell (replacing mindcrank) in hand and draw a pack rat with 5 lands in play. Now, assuming one of the rats lives and assuming your opponent gives you 2 turns to build up the rats, you can win.
I don't believe the combo is good here, but immediately dismissing it outright based on the fact that it's sometimes bad is just wrong.
3x pack rat
1x waste not
4x thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x raven's crime
4x wrench mind
4x liliana of the veil
4x the rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x ensnaring bridge
1x slaughter pack
2x victim of night
3x mutavault
4x darksllick shores
4x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
10x swamp
SIDEBOARD:
4x darkblast
4x leyline of sanctity
4x surgical extraction
2x torpor orb
1x grafdigger's cage
I'll do another post soon going through my match ups. I will say one thing I'm taking out orb and cage for 3 spellskite. There were so many matches where I wish I still had them in my board.
We have someone in mind to take over the OP and hopefully that will pan out before the end of the week.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
You never have 5 lands up? Not ever. You always get raven's crime or liliana on the board? Never been flooded? Or are you holding lands? That's not going to work with bridge down.
I'm not sure entirely what the problem is, but you seem to have a concrete notion that the deck must be a particular build or none at all. I appreciate your loyalty to the creator's dream. Some us aren't so rigid.
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And skites are definitely going back in the board.
Yes, I've applied to do so. Last I checked I'm in consideration for it. If I'm accepted, I plan on making a much better designed primer, while still retaining a lot of the old, relevant information. Either way, MemoryLapse has told me previously he'll stay in contact with me about the deck, although it's possible he's changed his mind since.
On another note, to supplement what ktkenshinx said, you really need to be less aggressive when disagreeing with people. Just disagree calmly and keep the personal attacks out of it, if only because people are far, far more likely to consider your position for it. If you can't do that, then just don't reply to posts that make you aggressive. I really don't want to see this thread end up like the last one, and posts like yours worry me it will.
Great to see a nice paper finish, even if it's at a smaller event. To format properly, just use the [deck] [/ deck] tags (no spaces), or the deck tag button. Please post a link to official results if/when possible.
But I hear you and I'll be more open to... ummm... y'know.
I fully encourage you to shoot down bad ideas, just do so calmly and constructively; people are much more interested in listening to someone who is composed and confident than angry and aggressive. The latter just makes them not want to listen at all, even if you're 100% right. Empathize.
"Walking on thin ice is fine as long as you don't start running and crack it, the way I see it at least."
It's really not. Forums don't work that way; it just leads to things spiraling out of control as they did in the previous thread. There's no good reason not to be calm, and plenty of good reasons to be.
I too think that manlands are essential for the deck. I've tried going without them, but we absolutely need the flexibility gained from manlands. Monoblack doesn't get a ton of manland options, and I was always sad they never printed a set of Enemy colour manlands like the worldwake ones. I can't see myself cutting Mutavault until we get something like a B/G Raging Ravine/Celestial Colonade/Creeping Tar Pit. Even then, the interaction with Rat is strong enough they may not make the cut.
As for the combo, I don't think it's useful. When you look at decks that combo well, you see that all the combo pieces have uses outside of the combo. I don't see that with MindCrank. I don't see that we have ways of searching them, and they're dead topdecks without the other piece in play. If we're playing something that needs to get answered, I'd rather play Pack Rat. There is a lot of synergy between Pack Rat and Bridge. I don't know why people call it a nonbo. Having a way to develop your board, and keep all your opponents mans at bay is what we need. It even provides redundancy in the even that bridge is busted up.
As I've said before, I really do think we should be trying to figure out some ways of testing together. I think it would be good, and go some length to help strengthen the 8rack community, better learn matchups, etc.
Lastly, congrats on the finish, i_am_outerspace! I'd love to hear where you board in Spellskite. I think it's great that the deck get's to more paper events. I looked on the MTG site and the closest thing for 500mi around me is Duel of the Planeswalkers 2015....
Edit: @Sled-dog - if you really feel like the deck needs a combo finish that should be going into the sideboard. A transformational sideboard for g2/3 would be better than going half in one line half in the other.
3 Jace Beleren (maybe, or something like Surgical)
4 Duskmantle Guidlmage
4 Mindcrank
4 Exansanguinate
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I may eventually think about starting a new "official" primer on a different website if there is interest, but mostly I will be keeping all of my future development to myself and just PMing pals I have on here if I make any breakthroughs (testing something interesting now actually).
Take care all.
You know, that's sort of what I was thinking when the idea came to me; not changing the main board around, but having a package like you list to change things up. For the sake of testing I'm running the package main and it's very interesting. As I play more I'm getting numbers figured out, and win % is getting better too. The games I'm losing right now are more about my questionable play, unfortunate draws (lots of flooding lately), or just flat out getting whooped. The combo won a match for me against pod, another against scapeshift, and the threat of it had UW control scoop. Mindcrank does work even if the combo doesn't. I'm seeing a lot of games end with me sitting on 40+ cards in library, opponent with maybe half that. So consider that while not directly contributing to a win, it deprives the opponent of resources. It's not a turn 2 drop unless you have the combo in hand. I wait until I have racks about to activate before playing it. I do mulligan more aggressively with this build than with std 8rack. Before I'd often keep one land hands, now it really depends on what the hand is made of.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
What lists are they really helping against?
How are you siding in for our toughest matches?
What decks are you "just flat out getting whooped?"
Edit: Also, just a shot in the dark here but how do people feel about Exquisite Blood? Honestly the cost is so overwhelming, but it would activate whenever:
It seems like it might end up just being cute, but maybe as a 1 of or something, and one 1 sb. I feel like the games we lose are typically the ones where we stabilize, but just at too low of a life total. With the Racks/Affliction hitting every turn we'd be gaining 1-6 life/turn. I'm not sure if that outweighs the fact that we'll struggle so hard to cast it at 5. I feel like this is the card that 8rack needs. But it needs it to cost 1 less.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
My results from Indy:
MATCH 1 vs RUG Scapeshift
Game 1 (loss)- I had emptied his hand relatively quickly, but I was a little slow getting any racks out. It ended becoming a top deck battle where he was taking 6 a turn from my racks. He slowly accumulated land and ramp and eventually top decked Scapeshift for the win. Oh well.
Game 2 (Win)- I was able to surgical extraction Scapeshift on turn 2 after discarding it turn 1. My opponent also had 3 cryptics in his hand foreshadow. Anyone who's played Scapeshift knows that they bring heavy hitters post-board so the game was far from over. A few turns later I played raven's crime twice and one of the cards he discarded was a cryptic command. I hit the command with another extraction, thus taking the other two out of his hand. I remained in firm control from there on.
Game 3 (Win)- It's better to be lucky than good. This game was so dramatic. I eventually had 4 4/4 pack rats on the board, but also had bridge. However I had gotten damage under my own bridge by swinging with Rats while at 1/1 and 2/2 and discarding a card mid-attack to pump. I was at 1 life for six turns and all he needed was a mountain or a ramp spell to win (scapeshift had been extracted). It came down to one last turn where we were both at 1 life. Him needing a mountain and me with 2 racks. He drew a forest! And lost at his next upkeep.
Record: 1-0
MATCH 2 vs Burn
Game 1 (Win): This game was the equivalent of two boxers foregoing blocking/defense and just smashing one another in the face. Obviously his hand was emptied quickly between the two of us doing our thing. I got 2 racks out very quickly. And he was put on a 3 turn clock around turn 4. Once again it came down to one turn. Both of our hands were empty I was at 3 life, and he would go to 2 after taking 6 at his next upkeep. He needs a burn spell. Draws vexing devil.
Game 2 (Win): My opening hand has 2 leyline of sanctity in it. The disappointment on his face can't be overstated. He turned 1 goblin guide and I got a land off my deck. My draw ended up being darkblast. I kill his goblin guide and he did pretty much nothing afterwards.
Record: 2-0
MATCH 3 vs RUG Scapeshift
Game 1 (Loss)- This match was actually against my friend who I went to Indy with. I had an amazing 7 card opener and was feeling good. But the flood happened and I never saw raven's crime.
Game 2 (Loss)- I mulled to six and decided to take a chancy hand. It had mutavault and pack rat, I kept it, because since this was my friend I knew his deck well. He plays 0 bolts and 0 anger. So I was going to try and aggro him to death. I turned two rats but he had 1 of his 3 izzet charm in his hand and killed it before i untapped. That was unfortunate. I was able to get him down to 8 with mutavault. I knew he had 2 scapeshift in hand, but I never saw another discard spell (after my turn 1 IoK) to get his scapeshifts (I had the extraction). This match would be the worst my deck performed all day.
Record: 2-1
MATCH 4 vs RUG Midrange/Tempo
Game 1 (Win)- The deck played phenomenally. He basically did nothing and was just overrun by rats and racks.
Game 2 (Loss)- It was an extremely tight match. He gained at least 12 life from huntmaster of the fells. He had 7 land, a tarmogoyf, snapcaster mage, and 8 wolf tokens when ultimated Lili. It eventually came down to variance/luck. He fetched, shuffled, I cut his deck. His top card was hurkyl's recall which put my rack and bridge back to my hand. He then swung for 8 putting me at 8 life. My next turn I play bridge again. His next draw is another Snapcaster.
Game 3 (Loss)- Nothing too special about this game. It was good, ancient grudge got him the victory here.
Record: 2-2
I'll do the final four rounds in a different post to make it a little easier to look at.
The decks that whooped me so far have been BG rock (obliterator), GW pod spike/angel combo (that got dropped on me twice), and UB Shouta Tez just this AM, though that did go 3 games, his wins were one sided. Interesting...I've had an odd % of people win game one against me then quit, more than normal. I'm not sure if that means they didn't feel like it was a good match for them, they hate playing against discard, wasn't worth their time, or what. Those whoopins were pretty straightforward losses, ones I had no answer for, and feels like I would have loss even with the monoblack build. The BG loss was unreal. It was like a perfect curve with perfect cards. Something like birds, finks, obliterator, abrupt decay...gross.
Today I'm doing pretty well, 5-1 with the one loss being that Tez match. Sideboard is in flux because I'm still getting a feel for the deck, but against aggro (zoo, merfolk, etc) I bring in damnation, burn or discard gets leyline of Sanctity, Torpor Orb for Twin, grafdigger for pod or any other GY hating. The extra mindcrank comes in when I think I need to win quickly so BG/pod/tron, the extra echoing truth for anything I think might run it's own leyline of sanctity, blood moon, or tokens (it even stalls twin, kiki can reset).
The best I can say is there is some promise but it's a work in progress. If I were a better player I might have an answer sooner.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
If we want to splash blue for a sideboard plan, we should look at other options blue brings. I have a list I've been testing on cockatrice that's been working pretty well and the combo is perfect for the sideboard.
4 The Rack
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Executioner's Capsule
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Wrench Mind
4 Raven's Crime
2 Academy Ruins
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Darkslick Shores
5 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Watery Grave
The other blue cards I'm experimenting with:
- Trinket Mage: This guy's been reasonable as additional copies of rack that can also block or get something else useful if you already have a rack in hand.
- Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas: He's a solid planeswalker that helps us find the artifacts we need and provides a backup wincon.
- Academy Ruins: Recurring racks/bridges is insane. I've won several games I likely would have lost against pod/BGx decks when my opponent destroyed my rack or bridge this way. I haven't had a chance to use it with Executioner's Capsule.