Heads up to any MTGO players: the price on some key pieces of the deck have dropped. Rat is $0.75; Bridge is $11; Mutavault is $6. Those are about as low as they're going to get, at least for awhile, so if you don't have them, grab them now or soon.
Game 1 (Win): His deck couldn't do anything against ensnaring bridge. He never saw primal command, and the rack just hit too hard for him to never really get going.
Game 2 (Loss): This was one of my most epic games. It was a 30 minute battle. A lot of back n forth, give n take. eidolon of blossoms just started him off on his way to crazy-town. He eventually did what monogreen does and went berserk.
Game 3 (Draw); We had 5 minutes after game 2. I took risk on my turn 1 by casting Raven's crime, and he unfortunately had the obstinate baloth. So his t2 he had a baloth swinging. From there I just put up defense of bridge and rats. And held him off through time and turns to get a draw. It would have been close I ended the game with an army of rats. (5 5/5's by time).
Record: 2-2-1
Match 6 vs Pod
Game 1 (Win); He mulled to 6 and I had a great hand. I never relinquished control
Game 3 (Win): This was a long, grindy, and really fun game. It was another game that came down to one turn. We were each at 3 life (I had 3 racks that had done work), but he was obviously attempting to hold cards. We had a stalled board between rats and his guys, but he played a dude and had leathal on board next turn. He had two cards in hand I had one the rack and two shrieking affliction on board. I needed a discard card or a land for my raven's crime in the graveyard. Drew urborg, tomb of yawgmoth. He took 8 at his upkeep.
Record: 3-2-1
Match 7 vs Mardu
Game 1 (Win); This deck was basically a lesser version of BGR or BGW. I took a crazy opener that I wouldn't recommend doing often. This is how it played out on my side t1 shrieking affliction, t2 waste not I played WN here because he played Bob on his t2 so I knew it wasnt an aggro deck, t3 wrench mind and I drew 2 cards off WN. I killed bob my next turn and just took over from there. I loaded the board with shrieking affliction and won pretty handedly.
Game 2 (Win): He mulled and I had an aggresive hand. I did battle through a liliana of the veil and ajani vengeant, but he never really had control.
Record: 4-2-1
Match 8 vs Pod
Game 1 (Win): He mulled to six on the play and I wen turn one raven's crime, t2 wrench mind, t3 the rack. And he scooped a couple turns later.
Running 4 Urborg will be even more important if you run more than 3 colorless lands.
Using Less Colorless lands and less Urborg Is a meta choice, trading power for consistency.
However choosing the incorrect amount of urborg for your choice of colorless lands is not a matter of opinion. It will just put you at a statistically disadvantaged position.
^Sweet. Been wondering about that for a long time. Would you say then it's best to run 3x Mutavault instead of 4x, considering its many advantages? I figure it's highly debatable.
Yeah, I've been wondering about this myself. I feel like Urborg being legendary always screws things up for me, as I never want too many in hand at once. I'll definitely give this a swing, though. I'm currently on 4 Mutavaults and 3 Urborg, but I'll maybe switch those around. I read the article Bathickey posted, where the author used hypergeometric distribution to decide how many of each colour sources you need, but it never talked about the effects, of something like Urborg. Thanks for doing the math. I really feel like this is helpful.
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Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
@phone: Thanks! I was pretty excited for myself and especially the archetype.
Post-indy I'll be having 3 spellskite replace the orb and cage. The way I look at it orb/cage are predominantly meant for Pod. Well, skites help that match up while also protecting our win cons and bridges. Spellskite can block so much damage, which can give us turns at the back end of the game we may not have had without it. Torpor orb shuts off the infinite combos, but what I have found is that good hands and aggressive play keeps them from getting to that. Then of course orb stops reclamation sage and it's ilk but it doesn't stop qasali pridemage. Spellskite stops both.
Spellskite can act like leyline of sanctity in the burn matchup, saving damage from burn while blocking its creatures.
Skite can go in against twin. But we already have such a favorable match up you have to be careful what you take out. I would definitely put Skite in against Tarmo-twin.
I think spellskite also helps us against BGx and Tron. They have soooooo much targeted removal for our permnanets that it can only help those match ups.
Spellskite definitely against BGx, but Tron's removal is mainly sweepers and skite only survives pyroclasm. It can redirect (I think) a karn targeted exile though.
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The only removal I've seen is Pyroclasm, and O-stone. There's not a whole lot that survives O-Stone. Skite can redirect Karn's -3 as it targets a permanent. Skite only can't redirect a spell for which it wouldn't be legal target (destroy target land). I know this because I played it wrong for years. whenever I went to draw some cards off Brainstorm in Commander my buddy would laugh and say "Pay 2 life, Spellskite draws three cards and then discards 2. What a weird card. I can't believe it does this." So I now remember that rule quite clearly.
I like your ideas for Spellskite. I may try and see it it's worth running in my sideboard. I don't have any blue mana, but being able to wall up, turn Burn from dealing 7 spells into 10, saving my Rats from burn, and Bridges from removal seems like it might be good enough. Also, like how much work it does in the Infect Matchup, and Twin if you really need it too. How are you liking Pack Rat so far?
I know you said you were considering Buried Ruin but have you tried Academy Ruins instead? Obviously you're skipping a draw step, but for the things you'd be bringing back you're probably going to want to draw that instead.
It can protect from O-stone for a minute. Also in the board they play nature's claim and/or ancient grudge. I am aware of that first part as well @phone about the legal targets. Yeah, tron may not be a snap include for spellskite but it's such a difficult match up that anything is worth trying.
I have loved Rats. Opponents hate seeing rats. I can get in more detail later about actual gameplay. So for now I'll just leave it at that little quip.
It's tough for infect because you can redirect their pump spells. They HAVE to remove spellskite. So it can limit their explosiveness.
Especially when it can come down turn 2. It can wall off their infect dorks for a while too. It's not like Spellskite's toughness matters a ton, as long as your stealing anything that gives their dudes trample.
And I figured you'd like Pack Rat. It's easily one of my favourite cards at the moment.
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Quick question, I'm running a budget version, and the budget thread is quiet. What would would I be allowed to post here? BTW I'm happy with the new atmosphere, I've been lurking for a bit now.
So after some playtesting today the rack/crank build finished 9-4 against a variety of competition, no tron. Zoo was tough, so fast, and 4c gifts was a drag too. There were several games that I'm pretty sure 8rack was dead to, the combo saved. More practice is needed for sure. Echoing Truth is fantastic btw. It saved me from a pack of lingering souls diving under bridge to kill me, and it stalled multiple kor spiritdancers so I could stabilize and drop the combo. It also saved my bridge from abrupt decay, but it was too late by then. Very versatile card.
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Quick question, I'm running a budget version, and the budget thread is quiet. What would would I be allowed to post here? BTW I'm happy with the new atmosphere, I've been lurking for a bit now.
Post up dude. The budget version is very close to the stock but for liliana and bridges, typically.
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This is not 8Rack, this is a mix of Mindcrank and AoB, please take it to either of those threads.
Mindcrank isn't even maindeck, and I'm running 16 discard spells + Liliana + bridge + a full set of racks and 4 more cards to tutor for them. Please explain to me how that's not an 8rack deck.
As of now, it fits the guidelines. At least I think so; mods might disagree on "virtual" Racks counting toward the minimum. Perhaps more guidelines will be instituted in the future.
Quick question, I'm running a budget version, and the budget thread is quiet. What would would I be allowed to post here? BTW I'm happy with the new atmosphere, I've been lurking for a bit now.
I run it; I'm probably going to ditch it honestly, especially if I take over this primer. So yeah, discuss budget freely here.
Quick question, I'm running a budget version, and the budget thread is quiet. What would would I be allowed to post here? BTW I'm happy with the new atmosphere, I've been lurking for a bit now.
Post up dude. The budget version is very close to the stock but for liliana and bridges, typically.
Game One: I wreck his hand, but he topdecks/searches for Angel's Graces several times in a row, casting it on he upkeep. The topdecks were strong with this one, and he combos off six turns after he was supposed to be dead.
Game Two: Surgical the Ad Nauseam. He scoops.
Game Three: Leyline. I still get several Negrogen Mists and almost win because rack and affliction don't target, but he still has enough time to win.
Then his friend came over and asked to play. With the same deck.
Game Four: Surgical against SSM is a win
Game Five: He plays a late Leyline and I draw nothing good.
Game Six: A long, tense game. He gets Leyline in late, but I kill him with rats upon rats.
I also played Sam Pardee of Team ChannelFireball who ran Melira Pod. He actually kept a solid hand, but I was able to hit his mana dorks and Chord. Despise shined here. Eventually it turned out that a Voice of Resurgence was not able to race three racks.
My gut say Bitterblossom will be able to dig you out of more situations and works better with an Ensnaring Bridge that is stalling the game.
Pack rat will dominate an opponent that had all their cards ripped out of their hand. aka finish an already won game.
Pack rat does give you something to do w/ lands 4+ that is nice. However by T4 you have a 56% chance of drawing a Raven's crime (if you are playing 4). So most of the time your extra lands will just be a raven's crime.
Looks like a pretty tight list. However, I worry about 20 swamps, even with just 4 3 drops. I also run the Stompy primer; the deck has has a very similar curve to yours (maybe even the same one) and I feel much more comfortable with 22 land there. I also worry about only 2 removal spells with no Bridge; I feel like you want 4. It's hard to find room but I'd start with -2 Despise +2 Swamp, or -2 Despise +1 Victim of Night +1 Slaughter Pact (or +2 Victim).
Edit: looks like you're missing 4 cards? So I guess just add the cards I suggested.
My gut say Bitterblossom will be able to dig you out of more situations and works better with an Ensnaring Bridge that is stalling the game.
Pack rat will dominate an opponent that had all their cards ripped out of their hand. aka finish an already won game.
Pack rat does give you something to do w/ lands 4+ that is nice. However by T4 you have a 56% chance of drawing a Raven's crime (if you are playing 4). So most of the time your extra lands will just be a raven's crime.
Thoughts?
Bitterblossom and Pack Rat both perform very similarly in terms of when they should be played, how they get you in or out of situations, etc. They each have their pros and cons but I've found Rat considerably more consistent overall.
Game 1 (Win): His deck couldn't do anything against ensnaring bridge. He never saw primal command, and the rack just hit too hard for him to never really get going.
Game 2 (Loss): This was one of my most epic games. It was a 30 minute battle. A lot of back n forth, give n take. eidolon of blossoms just started him off on his way to crazy-town. He eventually did what monogreen does and went berserk.
Game 3 (Draw); We had 5 minutes after game 2. I took risk on my turn 1 by casting Raven's crime, and he unfortunately had the obstinate baloth. So his t2 he had a baloth swinging. From there I just put up defense of bridge and rats. And held him off through time and turns to get a draw. It would have been close I ended the game with an army of rats. (5 5/5's by time).
Record: 2-2-1
Match 6 vs Pod
Game 1 (Win); He mulled to 6 and I had a great hand. I never relinquished control
Game 2 (Loss); kitchen finks & scavenging ooze + gavony township overpowered me.
Game 3 (Win): This was a long, grindy, and really fun game. It was another game that came down to one turn. We were each at 3 life (I had 3 racks that had done work), but he was obviously attempting to hold cards. We had a stalled board between rats and his guys, but he played a dude and had leathal on board next turn. He had two cards in hand I had one the rack and two shrieking affliction on board. I needed a discard card or a land for my raven's crime in the graveyard. Drew urborg, tomb of yawgmoth. He took 8 at his upkeep.
Record: 3-2-1
Match 7 vs Mardu
Game 1 (Win); This deck was basically a lesser version of BGR or BGW. I took a crazy opener that I wouldn't recommend doing often. This is how it played out on my side t1 shrieking affliction, t2 waste not I played WN here because he played Bob on his t2 so I knew it wasnt an aggro deck, t3 wrench mind and I drew 2 cards off WN. I killed bob my next turn and just took over from there. I loaded the board with shrieking affliction and won pretty handedly.
Game 2 (Win): He mulled and I had an aggresive hand. I did battle through a liliana of the veil and ajani vengeant, but he never really had control.
Record: 4-2-1
Match 8 vs Pod
Game 1 (Win): He mulled to six on the play and I wen turn one raven's crime, t2 wrench mind, t3 the rack. And he scooped a couple turns later.
Game 2 (Win): darkblast was amazing in this match up. I used one blast to kill noble hierarch, sin collector, and eternal witness. I haven't given darkblast enought credit through these posts, but it was AMAZING.
Overall Record: 5-2-1
Long Story Short:
Run 1 more Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth than all colorless lands combined.
ie: 3 Buried Ruins means run 4 Urborg
Method:
Used Hypergeometric distribution to maximize the probability of having access to:
T1 B
T2 BB
T4 BB1
Mana Being Tested
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Colorless lands
2 Dakmor Salvage
13 Swamp
vs
-1 Urborg
+1 Swamp
Results:
T1 Sucess
Same (91.66%)
T2 BB
4 Urborg/3 Colorless/13 Swamp (77.3% Chance)
3 Urborg/3 Colorless/14 Swamp (76.5% Chance)
T4 BB1
4 Urborg/3 Colorless/13 Swamp (84.9% Chance)
3 Urborg/3 Colorless/14 Swamp (84.3% Chance)
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Post-indy I'll be having 3 spellskite replace the orb and cage. The way I look at it orb/cage are predominantly meant for Pod. Well, skites help that match up while also protecting our win cons and bridges. Spellskite can block so much damage, which can give us turns at the back end of the game we may not have had without it. Torpor orb shuts off the infinite combos, but what I have found is that good hands and aggressive play keeps them from getting to that. Then of course orb stops reclamation sage and it's ilk but it doesn't stop qasali pridemage. Spellskite stops both.
Every RUG match up I wish had Skite in the board. It helps against cryptic command bounce of bridge, ancient grudge, nature's claim. It blocks an unflipped huntsmaster and snapcaster mage and goyf (for awhile). Then with Scapeshift you can redirect every trigger from valakut, the molten pinnacle to spellskite. So every darslick shores saves your 3 damage or every 2 life activation of spellskite's ability saves you 1 life.
Spellskite can act like leyline of sanctity in the burn matchup, saving damage from burn while blocking its creatures.
Skite can go in against twin. But we already have such a favorable match up you have to be careful what you take out. I would definitely put Skite in against Tarmo-twin.
I think spellskite also helps us against BGx and Tron. They have soooooo much targeted removal for our permnanets that it can only help those match ups.
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UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
I like your ideas for Spellskite. I may try and see it it's worth running in my sideboard. I don't have any blue mana, but being able to wall up, turn Burn from dealing 7 spells into 10, saving my Rats from burn, and Bridges from removal seems like it might be good enough. Also, like how much work it does in the Infect Matchup, and Twin if you really need it too. How are you liking Pack Rat so far?
I know you said you were considering Buried Ruin but have you tried Academy Ruins instead? Obviously you're skipping a draw step, but for the things you'd be bringing back you're probably going to want to draw that instead.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I have loved Rats. Opponents hate seeing rats. I can get in more detail later about actual gameplay. So for now I'll just leave it at that little quip.
It's tough for infect because you can redirect their pump spells. They HAVE to remove spellskite. So it can limit their explosiveness.
And I figured you'd like Pack Rat. It's easily one of my favourite cards at the moment.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Post up dude. The budget version is very close to the stock but for liliana and bridges, typically.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
This is not 8Rack, this is a mix of Mindcrank and AoB, please take it to either of those threads.
Mindcrank isn't even maindeck, and I'm running 16 discard spells + Liliana + bridge + a full set of racks and 4 more cards to tutor for them. Please explain to me how that's not an 8rack deck.
I run it; I'm probably going to ditch it honestly, especially if I take over this primer. So yeah, discuss budget freely here.
Thanks. Here's my list:
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Pack Rat
4 Despise
2 Duress
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Wrench Mind
4 Raven's Crime
4 Blackmail
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Torpor Orb
2 Sun Droplet
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Bile Blight
4 Darkblast
I've only played a few games with it.
Game One: I wreck his hand, but he topdecks/searches for Angel's Graces several times in a row, casting it on he upkeep. The topdecks were strong with this one, and he combos off six turns after he was supposed to be dead.
Game Two: Surgical the Ad Nauseam. He scoops.
Game Three: Leyline. I still get several Negrogen Mists and almost win because rack and affliction don't target, but he still has enough time to win.
Then his friend came over and asked to play. With the same deck.
Game Four: Surgical against SSM is a win
Game Five: He plays a late Leyline and I draw nothing good.
Game Six: A long, tense game. He gets Leyline in late, but I kill him with rats upon rats.
I also played Sam Pardee of Team ChannelFireball who ran Melira Pod. He actually kept a solid hand, but I was able to hit his mana dorks and Chord. Despise shined here. Eventually it turned out that a Voice of Resurgence was not able to race three racks.
My gut say Bitterblossom will be able to dig you out of more situations and works better with an Ensnaring Bridge that is stalling the game.
Pack rat will dominate an opponent that had all their cards ripped out of their hand. aka finish an already won game.
Pack rat does give you something to do w/ lands 4+ that is nice. However by T4 you have a 56% chance of drawing a Raven's crime (if you are playing 4). So most of the time your extra lands will just be a raven's crime.
Thoughts?
Edit: looks like you're missing 4 cards? So I guess just add the cards I suggested.
Bitterblossom and Pack Rat both perform very similarly in terms of when they should be played, how they get you in or out of situations, etc. They each have their pros and cons but I've found Rat considerably more consistent overall.