IMO the best reason to run blue with Eldrazi is Ashiok. The synergy with Processors is top notch and it adds another line that the deck can take. Delay was cute, and I have always wanted for it to be a real card in Modern, but holding up mana was rarely the best thing for me to be doing on my turn. Delay could be a good SB choice.
I wanted to figure out if any Eldrazi Black builds other than BW Eldrazi (...and Eldrazi With Sweepers, I guess) had decent aggro match-ups, and after recalling Eldrazi Skyspawner, heavily modding a BW Eldrazi decklist, and testing on Cockatrice, I think I've found one such build:
Enough fliers and removal to deal with Affinity and Infect, enough blockers and removal to deal with Zoo, Eldrazi Skyspawner having Flying is awesome...
After getting bitten by not-enough-to-process-for-Blight Herder enough times with other Eldrazi Black builds, I like 3 Blight Herders the best. I still sometimes run into not-enough-to-process with that count, but Blight Herder is still one of the best Eldrazi in the deck when it's good.
So far, I've only seen a Delayed card resolve once--I've been able to Process it away soon enough all the other times. I like Delay in this deck more than Reality Shift--Reality Shift leaving behind a creature is still sorta icky--but Reality Shift still exiles and is creature semi-removal...
...Some days, I wonder whether Dissipate/Void Shatter is better than Delay in this deck, but then I'm reminded of how hard it is to get UU with this deck sometimes.
I'm generally not a fan of Oblivion Sower because it sometimes whiffs entirely and generally snags useless fetchlands. I like Drowner of Hope more in this deck because it can tap evasive guys (no more Amulet Bloom's Primeval Titans to tap, though) and it reliably ramps.
As a fifth flier, pseudo-Ingester, and resilient blocker, Dimensional Infiltrator has been serviceable. I've been making it Flash in and merely trade more often lately, though.
In other Eldrazi Black builds, I've tutored for Reality Smasher once (I generally find that Reality Smasher is still too easy to kill), and that was to get rid of Liliana when my opponent had no hand. Maybe I'll regret having 0 Reality Smashers maindeck some day...
The sideboard is rather untested, but the Burn match-up is definitely one of the worse aggro ones for this deck.
Are Serum Visions and Delay really compelling enough to splash blue over monoblack, BW, or BR? Do you find yourself able to hold up mana for the counterspells all that often and do the Serum Visions sometimes conflict with the discard spells? I find myself wanting to cast basically every Eldrazi as soon as possible to stick these massive threats on the table, and I rarely want to be forced to hold up mana for a response because it slows down my gameplan with little upside (For example although countering a Cranial Plating is awesome, I'm still getting pinked down by all these robots.)
Some of the other Eldrazi seem cute but still not really compelling choices for the splash.
Are Serum Visions and Delay really compelling enough to splash blue over monoblack, BW, or BR? Do you find yourself able to hold up mana for the counterspells all that often and do the Serum Visions sometimes conflict with the discard spells? I find myself wanting to cast basically every Eldrazi as soon as possible to stick these massive threats on the table
If what you want to do is slam down fat Eldrazi without caring about processing then play mono-black. The people that have chosen to try blue (or for that matter white) are not building that deck.
...I rarely want to be forced to hold up mana for a response because it slows down my gameplan with little upside (For example although countering a Cranial Plating is awesome, I'm still getting pinked down by all these robots.)
I have found that holding up mana for Delay is not ideal in a few matchups, so I don't run it MD (my SB is still a loose idea). Serum Visions is nice for top deck manipulation mostly, otherwise I would rather play Probe.
Some of the other Eldrazi seem cute but still not really compelling choices for the splash.
I haven't found a blue eldrazi that I am solidly behind, but I have not tested a couple of them. I think Ashiok is just such great synergy with Processing that so far it is my favorite blue splash in the deck.
Any of you who are looking at going into C with this decks ought to think about finding space for a couple of Talisman of Dominance. I like it better than Mind Stone in a UBC deck
As it was said before, the best reason for the blue splash is ashiok.
I think there is 2 version of the UB eldrazi, the tappedout and the more control one.
The first one with serum vision, maybe more ashiok and maybe some smaller creatures to curve with.
The control one with delay and pseudo-path (reality shift). I don't think serum vision is good in (no tested yet !), but i want to have black fast for discard.
Funny thing is that Drowner of Hope can't be cast on T3 (unlike oblivion sower), but the power was to "lock" titan, and to "get" one more turn vs twin (tapping the creature before twin fall). Now these 2 decks are less powerfull, so i feel like Drowner of Hope was not good enough.
Blue also give acess to Condescend (i didn't tried it yet, but i plan to).
Part of me wants to try out Ashiok instead of the underperforming Reality Shift. Part of me just thinks that Ashiok tends to be at its best against midrange, and we're generally built to be good against other midrange decks.
True, there is no way that Drowner of Hope can be cast on Turn 3 with lands alone. However, you're underrating Drowner of Hope against fliers such as Affinity's guys (especially the Cranial Plating-equipped guy), Infect's guys (especially Blighted Agent or whichever guy they make unblockable), and Delver.
..As a fifth flier, pseudo-Ingester, and resilient blocker, Dimensional Infiltrator has been serviceable. I've been making it Flash in and merely trade more often lately, though.
I want to try out Dimensional Infiltrator; he seems perfect for what I'm trying to do in terms of holding up things like Delay and if they don't do anything, flash him in. The "pseudo" ingest as you call it is nice aswell.
Think he will take the spot of Salvage Drone or put Ashioks sideboard.
Are Serum Visions and Delay really compelling enough to splash blue over monoblack, BW, or BR? Do you find yourself able to hold up mana for the counterspells all that often and do the Serum Visions sometimes conflict with the discard spells? I find myself wanting to cast basically every Eldrazi as soon as possible to stick these massive threats on the table, and I rarely want to be forced to hold up mana for a response because it slows down my gameplan with little upside (For example although countering a Cranial Plating is awesome, I'm still getting pinked down by all these robots.)
Some of the other Eldrazi seem cute but still not really compelling choices for the splash.
Serum Visions isn't necessary. I don't run it. Delay isn't great. The compelling reason to run U over other variants is Ashiok + Nullifier. It has a similar removal spell to white in Reality Shift, which is arguably and situationally better than Lightning Bolt. The main reason to run U is to combat combo decks.
As it was said before, the best reason for the blue splash is ashiok.
I think there is 2 version of the UB eldrazi, the tappedout and the more control one.
The first one with serum vision, maybe more ashiok and maybe some smaller creatures to curve with.
The control one with delay and pseudo-path (reality shift). I don't think serum vision is good in (no tested yet !), but i want to have black fast for discard.
Funny thing is that Drowner of Hope can't be cast on T3 (unlike oblivion sower), but the power was to "lock" titan, and to "get" one more turn vs twin (tapping the creature before twin fall). Now these 2 decks are less powerfull, so i feel like Drowner of Hope was not good enough.
Blue also give acess to Condescend (i didn't tried it yet, but i plan to).
As it was said before, the best reason for the blue splash is ashiok.
I think there is 2 version of the UB eldrazi, the tappedout and the more control one.
The first one with serum vision, maybe more ashiok and maybe some smaller creatures to curve with.
The control one with delay and pseudo-path (reality shift). I don't think serum vision is good in (no tested yet !), but i want to have black fast for discard.
Funny thing is that Drowner of Hope can't be cast on T3 (unlike oblivion sower), but the power was to "lock" titan, and to "get" one more turn vs twin (tapping the creature before twin fall). Now these 2 decks are less powerfull, so i feel like Drowner of Hope was not good enough.
Blue also give acess to Condescend (i didn't tried it yet, but i plan to).
I totally agree with your assessment. I think you are spot on. If you are running this deck without Ashiok I would wonder why you are running blue at all. The other main reason to run this is Nullifer + Delay which makes the U/B version better against combo decks like Ad Naseum where other decks my not have any out available at all.
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I have made some tests with Delay but it was too much cute to work when I really wanted and somehow It forces you to play a processor to pay It's cost. I like Stubborn Denial since It works with all Eldrazi I play and people just don't suspect you are playing it. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is fine against some matches and has some synergy with Oblivion Sower.
Playing main deck 4 mass removals Languish and Drown in Sorrow because needed something to stay alive against small threats and those removals don't kill my own creatures. To Help casting them I play 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth main. Oblivion Sower is fine but I didn't like Blight Herder too much because some games I was just holding It with no cards to process. For sideboard I play 4 Spreading Seas against Tron and other Eldrazi decks but sideboard still very raw.
Some changes I would make after oath's online release:
Thought-Knot Seer can be played turn 2-3 and helps Blight Herder to have some cards to process. Reality Smasher some games is more resilient than Herder and If they try to path to exile It they will discard a card and you can counter that path with Stubborn Denial. Remand is more a tempo card but with Thought-Knot Seer turn 3 you can discard what they wanted to play. I think that those 2 new eldrazis will add a lot of value for this build.
I did some tests with that list (3 first games I have played) but unfortunately I only won against infect (he conceded entire match) and the other 2 games I did some poor decisions. The second game was against some sort of bring to light kiki combo deck and the other game was against a heavy land destruction deck (so the worst match possible). I would not record the games I lost but I think It would be interesting for curiosity and learn with my mistakes.
I like the idea of Stubborn Denial in a deck with Eldrazi if you are going to be playing counters It's way easier to leave that one land untapped. That said I am not sure that running counters MD would actually improve any of my matchups.
Did some more revisions after testing, just trying to find where this deck stands and what Eldrazi to play.
I like the discussions above and agree with those that say we aren't the best at going "big".
I think our strongest card options in blue involve countermagic and Ashiok.
I want to add more pressure via Dimensional Infiltrator since he allows us to hold up countermagic.
Also fixed the manabase to include Darkslick Shores.
-Disfigure I feel is super good in this meta of Affinity, Burn and Infect.
-Dimensional Infiltrator can help against the bigger decks like Tron/Eldrazi by allowing us to put
pressure in addition to disruption and countermagic. He's also a good blocking flier and processing enabler.
-Surgical Extraction is strange mainboard, but I feel adds to the "tempo" aspect. You can play turn 2 Wasteland Strangler and process without having to have had a Relic. You can almost always extract a
land and have plenty of processing food for no mana at all, allowing you to have more mana open.
I try to think of it all on a turn by turn basis and ask what I'm I doing against the meta decks of the format.
I think out toughest matchup is Tron, we simply can't out game them if things go to long, so we have to be fast...Ulamog's Nullifier, Delay are pivotal against them. Hopefully Thought-Knot Seer and Dimensional Infiltrator gives us even better game. Can't test till they come out on mtgo, or I finish my paper version.
I would keep Languish even with the risk of killing Thought-Knot Seer in the process because when we cast It we are already in a not favorable board position. The risk of killing our own Thought-Knot Seer is very low because actually we are trading one card they wanted to play for a random card (unless they are luck enough to draw the same or a better card).
I like Kozilek, the great distortion but at least for now I am not really sure what should I cut to play him. I will need to do some tests.
I really like your version.
But during my testing, i found that sire was too slow and too weak.
I feel like Kozilek can be great in this deck list.
Also, will you switch Drown in Sorrow for Flaying Tendrils ? Against some boring creatures like voice or finks it can be great.
I saw that you cut all strangeler, i'm about to do that too, they don't always work and i often use them only to tempo till bigger threat.
I should try with some sweeper main deck, i kinda like languish too.
Also did you think about Syncopate (and not Condescend as i said before) ?
I like Sire of Stagnation but yes He is slow in comparison to Oblivion Sower since he is very color dependent. I would only play him if I have a Stubborn Denial to protect him. He is more a mind game since opponent will always think two times before playing a land or searching after a Ghost Quarter. Actually I would like to play a crucible of worlds main or side to keep this combo along side playing our fetches. In case he is too much slow other replacements are Endbringer and or another Reality Smasher.
I will need to do some tests before cutting him entirely or just 1 copy but other card I would like to play in this deck list is 1-2 Snapcaster Mage since flashbacking a disruption, counter or removal could save us even with the risk of our own Relic of Progenitus. It could sound non synergy with Relic of Progenitus but BW Eldrazi do something very similar but they play Lingering Souls instead. They get more bodies but we get more removals.
Removed entirely Wasteland Strangler because although he is very cheap He is so fragile as well. Early game when I wanted him to do something relevant I just couldn't because I didn't have a card to process. Playing him with no eff just to chump block but instead having him bolted at end phase is very sad. I decided to play board sweepers like Languish because they were big enough to kill opponent's creatures and small enough to not kill mine and the worst matchups are exactly the ones with cheap small threats. More main Languish over Drown in Sorrow/Flaying Tendrills because vs Merfoks/Elves they just need one lord to stay out of Drown in Sorrow's range.
I don't like Syncopate/Condescend too much because I would need to leave too much mana open to make them worth specially early game when I would like to play a disruption or even an eldrazi like Thought-Knot Seer instead. But I really wanted to do something with the "extra mana" that Oblivion Sower + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth provides besides the Eye of Ugin game Plan. Do something but without tweaking main deck spells to not loose consistent. Maybe something with lands like 1 Blighted Cataract or Blighted Fen that would also work with crucible of worlds game plan but even without It they would not stuck in my hands.
I don't like Syncopate/Condescend too much because I would need to leave too much mana open to make them worth specially early game when I would like to play a disruption or even an eldrazi like Thought-Knot Seer instead.
The thing I really like about Condescend (haven't tried it here, playing it in another deck) is that if you need to (as long as your opponent is playing spells) Condescend can be a way to fix your draw with a little tax added on. Ideally it will counter something and get to Scry 2, but it can be enough to stop more spells from being played by making the spell cost more if you are also getting to Scry 2. In decks playing a control game that can be really important.
I run two and like them so far, pretty much one of the main reasons to run blue.
When do you find yourself casting them? On the one hand it does sort of answer the issue of not wanting to hold up creature casting mana for counters, but on the other hand at 4cmc it is a tad slow if you don't get an ideal start.
I run two and like them so far, pretty much one of the main reasons to run blue.
When do you find yourself casting them? On the one hand it does sort of answer the issue of not wanting to hold up creature casting mana for counters, but on the other hand at 4cmc it is a tad slow if you don't get an ideal start.
Well, throughout the game I'm usually running IOK/Relic, into Visions/Delay...the deck is good at buying time so as long as you are making land drops, 4cmc counter + creature can be played, its basically Snapcaster Mage + Counterspell. Of course what makes it more playable is Eye of Ugin/Temple.
I think running more than two would be pushing it.
There was one game where I actually tutored for Ulamog's Nullifier to counter a lethal bolt to win the game next turn...
I run two and like them so far, pretty much one of the main reasons to run blue.
When do you find yourself casting them? On the one hand it does sort of answer the issue of not wanting to hold up creature casting mana for counters, but on the other hand at 4cmc it is a tad slow if you don't get an ideal start.
I love Nullifier. I actually run three. Its insane value. At its worst its a 2/3 Flash Flyer/Surprise blocker. It can cost as little as UB but normally costs around 1UB. I think the comparison to Snap -> Leak is quite apt but the body is WAY better and its a hard counter. Its also a flyer, which Eldrazi decks are not known for having outside of Lingering Souls. A 2/3 body really isn't that bad either. I mean it still dies to bolt but it matches up well against a lot of the creatures in Modern.
I usually run a 2/3 split of Delay and Nullifier. Delay hits things early and Nullifier handles them late when I don't want to have to worry about finding a processor for things I've Delayed. Nullifier and Strangler make great Processors early for things that get Delayed. I really like Reality Shift here because there is a synergy between Delaying a spell, Shifting an attacker, and then Strangling the token 2/2 to process the Delayed spell. The worst thing about Delay is either 1) not even having a Processor or 2) having the Processor without a target. Only Blight Herder, in the main deck, doesn't require a target and if you have a slow start, you may not be able to cast that in time to process out the Delayed card.
Where white clogs up the early game with Path to Exile and Lingering Souls tokens, the game I usually play is a blue based tempo strategy to get me to the point where I have a window to set up my win. Delay, Shift, Strangler, and Nullifier aren't game winning cards, they are tempo based value cards designed to keep the game going long enough to pull out the win. Once you've secured the board, if your opponent can't deal with the 3/2 and 2/3 leftovers you can ride them to victory. Otherwise you out value them with your fatties.
I think blue has a much better Tron & Combo matchup than the other variants which is why I prefer it.
Also, the more I play Dimensional Infiltrator, the more I like it. I tend to hold up 1U for Delay up anyway, so when I don't cast it I can just drop one at the end of the enemy turn.
I'm curious what people are taking out for this card. Also, how often do you use its bounce ability? Do you just use it as a 2/1 Flash Flyer and is that really what this deck wants? I could see Ninja/Bear/Delver wanting this card but I can't imagine what in this deck that Infiltrator is better than to justify the spot.
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...Also, the more I play Dimensional Infiltrator, the more I like it. I tend to hold up 1U for Delay up anyway, so when I don't cast it I can just drop one at the end of the enemy turn.
Yea, I haven't been able to test the OGW stuff yet, but the more I play the more I feel like this deck wants 4x Dimensional Infiltrator.
I also feel like we don't want 4x Thought-Knot Seer, maybe just two main or sideboard.
To play him "early" requires either two Eldrazi Temple or Eldrazi Temple + Eye of Ugin on turn two. This means we can't cast any of our U or B spells till turn three.
The way I imagine this deck going is:
Turn 1: IOK, Thoughtseize, Disfigure, Relic
Turn 2: Hold up Delay, Dimensional Infiltrator
Turn 3: Wasteland Stranger (process Delayed spell, kill threat), Ashiok, Blight Herder
or
Turn 3: Hold up Delay, Ulamog's Nullifier (countering a spell), Dimensional Infiltrator and/or activation
Turn three plays like Blight Herder and Nullifier would require atleast and Eye or Temple in play.
But like I mentioned before, there's no need to be super fast as we have answers for the midrange to "longish" game. I want to develop a board presence while dealing with our opponents resources. Wasteland Strangler, Ulamog's Nullifier and Dimensional Infiltrator accomplish this on one card each, simultaneously, and can be cast at a discount.
...I'm curious what people are taking out for this card. Also, how often do you use its bounce ability? Do you just use it as a 2/1 Flash Flyer and is that really what this deck wants? I could see Ninja/Bear/Delver wanting this card but I can't imagine what in this deck that Infiltrator is better than to justify the spot.
I think the exiling part is more relevant than the bounce, as it fuels our processors. You can also activate off one Eldrazi Temple.
...Also, the more I play Dimensional Infiltrator, the more I like it. I tend to hold up 1U for Delay up anyway, so when I don't cast it I can just drop one at the end of the enemy turn.
Yea, I haven't been able to test the OGW stuff yet, but the more I play the more I feel like this deck wants 4x Dimensional Infiltrator.
I also feel like we don't want 4x Thought-Knot Seer, maybe just two main or sideboard.
To play him "early" requires either two Eldrazi Temple or Eldrazi Temple + Eye of Ugin on turn two. This means we can't cast any of our U or B spells till turn three.
The way I imagine this deck going is:
Turn 1: IOK, Thoughtseize, Disfigure, Relic
Turn 2: Hold up Delay, Dimensional Infiltrator
Turn 3: Wasteland Stranger (process Delayed spell, kill threat), Ashiok, Blight Herder
or
Turn 3: Hold up Delay, Ulamog's Nullifier (countering a spell), Dimensional Infiltrator and/or activation
Turn three plays like Blight Herder and Nullifier would require atleast and Eye or Temple in play.
But like I mentioned before, there's no need to be super fast as we have answers for the midrange to "longish" game. I want to develop a board presence while dealing with our opponents resources. Wasteland Strangler, Ulamog's Nullifier and Dimensional Infiltrator accomplish this on one card each, simultaneously, and can be cast at a discount.
I think your assessment of our early turns, and what we want, is pretty well spot on. I can't agree with you enough on Thought-Knot Seer. To be honest, I didn't really think of it that way until I read your post and got to thinking about what casting a turn 2-3 Seer means for this deck and how that really isn't normally our ideal line. I think that it synergizes really well in a Colorless (splash B) list that wants T1: Thoughtseize -> T2: Matter Reshaper -> T3: Seer -> Turn 4 Reality Smasher. That kind of curve would remove 3 cards from their hand + a fourth to kill Smasher. Consider that they start with 7, and assuming they make every land drop on the draw they will have seen 11 cards, 3 of which are lands, and four of which we have stripped or baited out. That means they really only get to use like 5 cards over 3-4 turns and we are picking their best ones each time. If they mulligan or land flood/screw it gets even worse for them. Not to mention you are hitting in for upwards of 15 damage in the process. Obviously that's the nuts but man.
Seer is good but as you so astutely illustrated, it doesn't really fit anywhere in our desired curve unless we remove a couple cards like Ashiok or Blight Herder from the list.
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2 Ashiok, the Nightmare Weaver
Creatures: 14
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Blight Herder
1 Spellskite
4 Oblivion Sower
1 Conduit of Ruin
Non-Creature Spells: 19
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Dismember
1 Victim of Night
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Expidition Map
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 See Beyond
3 Serum Visions
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Poluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Underground River
3 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Tolaria West
2 Ghost Quarter
My last test list ran Gitaxian Probe in place of Serum Visions because I like the flex that it gave me.
IMO the best reason to run blue with Eldrazi is Ashiok. The synergy with Processors is top notch and it adds another line that the deck can take. Delay was cute, and I have always wanted for it to be a real card in Modern, but holding up mana was rarely the best thing for me to be doing on my turn. Delay could be a good SB choice.
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4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Underground River
2 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Island
2 Swamp
Creatures
3 Wasteland Strangler
1 Bearer of Silence
1 Dimensional Infiltrator
4 Eldrazi Skyspawner
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Blight Herder
2 Drowner of Hope
1 Oblivion Sower
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Expedition Map
2 Serum Visions
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Delay
1 Reality Shift
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Negate
1 Agony Warp
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Annul
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Disfigure
1 Ruin Processor
1 Essence Depleter
1 Spellskite
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Damnation
1 Vampiric Link
Enough fliers and removal to deal with Affinity and Infect, enough blockers and removal to deal with Zoo, Eldrazi Skyspawner having Flying is awesome...
After getting bitten by not-enough-to-process-for-Blight Herder enough times with other Eldrazi Black builds, I like 3 Blight Herders the best. I still sometimes run into not-enough-to-process with that count, but Blight Herder is still one of the best Eldrazi in the deck when it's good.
I also like a 3 Wasteland Strangler-1 Bearer of Silence split, although I've been bitten by can't-meet-removal-requirements for both of them.
So far, I've only seen a Delayed card resolve once--I've been able to Process it away soon enough all the other times. I like Delay in this deck more than Reality Shift--Reality Shift leaving behind a creature is still sorta icky--but Reality Shift still exiles and is creature semi-removal...
...Some days, I wonder whether Dissipate/Void Shatter is better than Delay in this deck, but then I'm reminded of how hard it is to get UU with this deck sometimes.
I'm generally not a fan of Oblivion Sower because it sometimes whiffs entirely and generally snags useless fetchlands. I like Drowner of Hope more in this deck because it can tap evasive guys (no more Amulet Bloom's Primeval Titans to tap, though) and it reliably ramps.
As a fifth flier, pseudo-Ingester, and resilient blocker, Dimensional Infiltrator has been serviceable. I've been making it Flash in and merely trade more often lately, though.
In other Eldrazi Black builds, I've tutored for Reality Smasher once (I generally find that Reality Smasher is still too easy to kill), and that was to get rid of Liliana when my opponent had no hand. Maybe I'll regret having 0 Reality Smashers maindeck some day...
The sideboard is rather untested, but the Burn match-up is definitely one of the worse aggro ones for this deck.
Some of the other Eldrazi seem cute but still not really compelling choices for the splash.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
If what you want to do is slam down fat Eldrazi without caring about processing then play mono-black. The people that have chosen to try blue (or for that matter white) are not building that deck.
I have found that holding up mana for Delay is not ideal in a few matchups, so I don't run it MD (my SB is still a loose idea). Serum Visions is nice for top deck manipulation mostly, otherwise I would rather play Probe.
I haven't found a blue eldrazi that I am solidly behind, but I have not tested a couple of them. I think Ashiok is just such great synergy with Processing that so far it is my favorite blue splash in the deck.
Any of you who are looking at going into C with this decks ought to think about finding space for a couple of Talisman of Dominance. I like it better than Mind Stone in a UBC deck
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Part of me wants to try out Ashiok instead of the underperforming Reality Shift. Part of me just thinks that Ashiok tends to be at its best against midrange, and we're generally built to be good against other midrange decks.
True, there is no way that Drowner of Hope can be cast on Turn 3 with lands alone. However, you're underrating Drowner of Hope against fliers such as Affinity's guys (especially the Cranial Plating-equipped guy), Infect's guys (especially Blighted Agent or whichever guy they make unblockable), and Delver.
Think he will take the spot of Salvage Drone or put Ashioks sideboard.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Serum Visions isn't necessary. I don't run it. Delay isn't great. The compelling reason to run U over other variants is Ashiok + Nullifier. It has a similar removal spell to white in Reality Shift, which is arguably and situationally better than Lightning Bolt. The main reason to run U is to combat combo decks.
I totally agree with your assessment. I think you are spot on. If you are running this deck without Ashiok I would wonder why you are running blue at all. The other main reason to run this is Nullifer + Delay which makes the U/B version better against combo decks like Ad Naseum where other decks my not have any out available at all.
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2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Watery Grave
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple
Creatures (11)
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Oblivion Sower
4 Blight Herder
2 Sire of Stagnation
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Stubborn Denial
3 Remand
Sorcery (9)
3 Languish
1 Drown in Sorrow
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
Artifact (4)
4 Relic of Progenitus
Planeswalker (2)
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spellskite
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vampiric Link
4 Spreading Seas
I have made some tests with Delay but it was too much cute to work when I really wanted and somehow It forces you to play a processor to pay It's cost. I like Stubborn Denial since It works with all Eldrazi I play and people just don't suspect you are playing it. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is fine against some matches and has some synergy with Oblivion Sower.
Testing Remand to give some control and draw but I think It will work better along side Thought-Knot Seer (not released online yet) because you can Remand it and remove It during your turn with Thought-Knot Seer or other discard. Surgical Extraction main was to combo with Oblivion Sower and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth but I think It works better at sideboard. Sire of Stagnation was interesting specially when you have a Stubborn Denial to protect It or have an opportunity to draw that counter when they play a land.
Playing main deck 4 mass removals Languish and Drown in Sorrow because needed something to stay alive against small threats and those removals don't kill my own creatures. To Help casting them I play 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth main. Oblivion Sower is fine but I didn't like Blight Herder too much because some games I was just holding It with no cards to process. For sideboard I play 4 Spreading Seas against Tron and other Eldrazi decks but sideboard still very raw.
Some changes I would make after oath's online release:
-2 Surgical Extraction +2 Reality Smasher
-1 Remand -1 Cavern of Souls -1 Inquisition of Kozilek -1 Oblivion Sower +4 Thought-Knot Seer
Thought-Knot Seer can be played turn 2-3 and helps Blight Herder to have some cards to process. Reality Smasher some games is more resilient than Herder and If they try to path to exile It they will discard a card and you can counter that path with Stubborn Denial. Remand is more a tempo card but with Thought-Knot Seer turn 3 you can discard what they wanted to play. I think that those 2 new eldrazis will add a lot of value for this build.
I did some tests with that list (3 first games I have played) but unfortunately I only won against infect (he conceded entire match) and the other 2 games I did some poor decisions. The second game was against some sort of bring to light kiki combo deck and the other game was against a heavy land destruction deck (so the worst match possible). I would not record the games I lost but I think It would be interesting for curiosity and learn with my mistakes.
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I like the discussions above and agree with those that say we aren't the best at going "big".
I think our strongest card options in blue involve countermagic and Ashiok.
I want to add more pressure via Dimensional Infiltrator since he allows us to hold up countermagic.
Also fixed the manabase to include Darkslick Shores.
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Polluted Delta
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Watery Grave
2 Underground River
2 Island
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Swamp
Creatures (17)
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Blight Herder
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Dimensional Infiltrator
2 Ulamog's Nullifier
4 Delay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dismember
Artifacts (4)
4 Relic of Progenitus
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
-Dimensional Infiltrator can help against the bigger decks like Tron/Eldrazi by allowing us to put
pressure in addition to disruption and countermagic. He's also a good blocking flier and processing enabler.
-Surgical Extraction is strange mainboard, but I feel adds to the "tempo" aspect. You can play turn 2
Wasteland Strangler and process without having to have had a Relic. You can almost always extract a
land and have plenty of processing food for no mana at all, allowing you to have more mana open.
I try to think of it all on a turn by turn basis and ask what I'm I doing against the meta decks of the format.
I think out toughest matchup is Tron, we simply can't out game them if things go to long, so we have to be fast...Ulamog's Nullifier, Delay are pivotal against them. Hopefully Thought-Knot Seer and Dimensional Infiltrator gives us even better game. Can't test till they come out on mtgo, or I finish my paper version.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I would keep Languish even with the risk of killing Thought-Knot Seer in the process because when we cast It we are already in a not favorable board position. The risk of killing our own Thought-Knot Seer is very low because actually we are trading one card they wanted to play for a random card (unless they are luck enough to draw the same or a better card).
I like Kozilek, the great distortion but at least for now I am not really sure what should I cut to play him. I will need to do some tests.
I like Sire of Stagnation but yes He is slow in comparison to Oblivion Sower since he is very color dependent. I would only play him if I have a Stubborn Denial to protect him. He is more a mind game since opponent will always think two times before playing a land or searching after a Ghost Quarter. Actually I would like to play a crucible of worlds main or side to keep this combo along side playing our fetches. In case he is too much slow other replacements are Endbringer and or another Reality Smasher.
I will need to do some tests before cutting him entirely or just 1 copy but other card I would like to play in this deck list is 1-2 Snapcaster Mage since flashbacking a disruption, counter or removal could save us even with the risk of our own Relic of Progenitus. It could sound non synergy with Relic of Progenitus but BW Eldrazi do something very similar but they play Lingering Souls instead. They get more bodies but we get more removals.
Yeah probably I will switch Drown in Sorrow for Flaying Tendrils. Being able to scry 1 is very good but sometimes I just don't want to burst Relic of Progenitus to don't let something like Kitchen Finks return.
Removed entirely Wasteland Strangler because although he is very cheap He is so fragile as well. Early game when I wanted him to do something relevant I just couldn't because I didn't have a card to process. Playing him with no eff just to chump block but instead having him bolted at end phase is very sad. I decided to play board sweepers like Languish because they were big enough to kill opponent's creatures and small enough to not kill mine and the worst matchups are exactly the ones with cheap small threats. More main Languish over Drown in Sorrow/Flaying Tendrills because vs Merfoks/Elves they just need one lord to stay out of Drown in Sorrow's range.
I don't like Syncopate/Condescend too much because I would need to leave too much mana open to make them worth specially early game when I would like to play a disruption or even an eldrazi like Thought-Knot Seer instead. But I really wanted to do something with the "extra mana" that Oblivion Sower + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth provides besides the Eye of Ugin game Plan. Do something but without tweaking main deck spells to not loose consistent. Maybe something with lands like 1 Blighted Cataract or Blighted Fen that would also work with crucible of worlds game plan but even without It they would not stuck in my hands.
The thing I really like about Condescend (haven't tried it here, playing it in another deck) is that if you need to (as long as your opponent is playing spells) Condescend can be a way to fix your draw with a little tax added on. Ideally it will counter something and get to Scry 2, but it can be enough to stop more spells from being played by making the spell cost more if you are also getting to Scry 2. In decks playing a control game that can be really important.
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Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
When do you find yourself casting them? On the one hand it does sort of answer the issue of not wanting to hold up creature casting mana for counters, but on the other hand at 4cmc it is a tad slow if you don't get an ideal start.
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I think running more than two would be pushing it.
There was one game where I actually tutored for Ulamog's Nullifier to counter a lethal bolt to win the game next turn...
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I love Nullifier. I actually run three. Its insane value. At its worst its a 2/3 Flash Flyer/Surprise blocker. It can cost as little as UB but normally costs around 1UB. I think the comparison to Snap -> Leak is quite apt but the body is WAY better and its a hard counter. Its also a flyer, which Eldrazi decks are not known for having outside of Lingering Souls. A 2/3 body really isn't that bad either. I mean it still dies to bolt but it matches up well against a lot of the creatures in Modern.
I usually run a 2/3 split of Delay and Nullifier. Delay hits things early and Nullifier handles them late when I don't want to have to worry about finding a processor for things I've Delayed. Nullifier and Strangler make great Processors early for things that get Delayed. I really like Reality Shift here because there is a synergy between Delaying a spell, Shifting an attacker, and then Strangling the token 2/2 to process the Delayed spell. The worst thing about Delay is either 1) not even having a Processor or 2) having the Processor without a target. Only Blight Herder, in the main deck, doesn't require a target and if you have a slow start, you may not be able to cast that in time to process out the Delayed card.
Where white clogs up the early game with Path to Exile and Lingering Souls tokens, the game I usually play is a blue based tempo strategy to get me to the point where I have a window to set up my win. Delay, Shift, Strangler, and Nullifier aren't game winning cards, they are tempo based value cards designed to keep the game going long enough to pull out the win. Once you've secured the board, if your opponent can't deal with the 3/2 and 2/3 leftovers you can ride them to victory. Otherwise you out value them with your fatties.
I think blue has a much better Tron & Combo matchup than the other variants which is why I prefer it.
I'm curious what people are taking out for this card. Also, how often do you use its bounce ability? Do you just use it as a 2/1 Flash Flyer and is that really what this deck wants? I could see Ninja/Bear/Delver wanting this card but I can't imagine what in this deck that Infiltrator is better than to justify the spot.
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I also feel like we don't want 4x Thought-Knot Seer, maybe just two main or sideboard.
To play him "early" requires either two Eldrazi Temple or Eldrazi Temple + Eye of Ugin on turn two. This means we can't cast any of our U or B spells till turn three.
The way I imagine this deck going is:
Turn 1: IOK, Thoughtseize, Disfigure, Relic
Turn 2: Hold up Delay, Dimensional Infiltrator
Turn 3: Wasteland Stranger (process Delayed spell, kill threat), Ashiok, Blight Herder
or
Turn 3: Hold up Delay, Ulamog's Nullifier (countering a spell), Dimensional Infiltrator and/or activation
Turn three plays like Blight Herder and Nullifier would require atleast and Eye or Temple in play.
But like I mentioned before, there's no need to be super fast as we have answers for the midrange to "longish" game. I want to develop a board presence while dealing with our opponents resources.
Wasteland Strangler, Ulamog's Nullifier and Dimensional Infiltrator accomplish this on one card each, simultaneously, and can be cast at a discount.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Maybe something like this, mana needs tweaking.
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Polluted Delta
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Watery Grave
2 Underground River
2 Island
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Swamp
Creatures (16)
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Blight Herder
4 Dimensional Infiltrator
2 Ulamog's Nullifier
1 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Delay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
2 Serum Visions
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dismember
Artifacts (4)
4 Relic of Progenitus
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I think your assessment of our early turns, and what we want, is pretty well spot on. I can't agree with you enough on Thought-Knot Seer. To be honest, I didn't really think of it that way until I read your post and got to thinking about what casting a turn 2-3 Seer means for this deck and how that really isn't normally our ideal line. I think that it synergizes really well in a Colorless (splash B) list that wants T1: Thoughtseize -> T2: Matter Reshaper -> T3: Seer -> Turn 4 Reality Smasher. That kind of curve would remove 3 cards from their hand + a fourth to kill Smasher. Consider that they start with 7, and assuming they make every land drop on the draw they will have seen 11 cards, 3 of which are lands, and four of which we have stripped or baited out. That means they really only get to use like 5 cards over 3-4 turns and we are picking their best ones each time. If they mulligan or land flood/screw it gets even worse for them. Not to mention you are hitting in for upwards of 15 damage in the process. Obviously that's the nuts but man.
Seer is good but as you so astutely illustrated, it doesn't really fit anywhere in our desired curve unless we remove a couple cards like Ashiok or Blight Herder from the list.
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