I tried incorporating the Unstorm combo into the original Thing Ascension deck by replacing 1 Remand, 1 Vision & 1 Looting with 3 Noxious Revival. I found that it still folds to Abzan, which is really prevalent in my LGS meta. I have not tested Sam Black's latest list. I will be playing that list this coming Monday. Hopefully will have decided on a proper SB by then as Sam said that the SB he used was simply thrown together.
I agree that Thing + Swiftspear is kinda counter-intuitive, but if you watch the videos, Sam never boards out any Swiftspears, even when he bring in the Things. There was also a game where he played 3 spells, left the Thing at 1 counter, swung with 2 swiftspears, then only flipped the Thing.
I do really like being pure U/R, but losing the mainboard helix and SB Rests will make Burn a lot tougher.
@Kingfuzlus,
My experience with the original Thing Ascension deck thus far has been abysmal as the meta at my LGS is quite similar to that of the World Championship this year, i.e. Abzan galore. As Ryoichi Tamada said in his interview at the event, Abzan with 4 Abrupt Decay is very hard to beat. Decay and Path will is disastrous for the deck. Having said that, I expect Sam Black's to fair slightly better due to the added pressure that Reveller brings. Now to make a proper SB.
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[Modern] RBGU Dredge RBGU RG Ponza RG UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR] G Titania, Protector of Argoth G UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
So I'm thinking of getting into this deck but for now I pretty only have UR cards(no foundries, paths, helices, or stony silences) so I'll probably end up building a version similar to Sam's build.I have quite a few questions about this deck.
1. How essential is white to this deck? I feel like this is an interesting question now that a UR build has surfaced. While the white splash seems nice for burn, you are adding extra shocks and potentially fetches which do add up in the long run. Some sideboard cards like Stony Silence or Rest in Peace could be replaced with Shatterstorm (or any other red artifact hate) and Grafdigger's Cage just as examples. So really it feels like the big additions white has are Lightning Helix and Rest for the Weary but is that worth it?
2. Remand. As someone who used to play a lot of storm, and then UR delver during the cruise era this type of card never seemed to fit in at all. This is a very proactive deck that plays and chains lots of spells together on our turn so why so we want a card that reacts with the opponent in the mainboard? I feel like this slot could be better utilized.
3. Threat count/win condensity. Most lists I've seen run the 4 Ascension and 4 Thing to pair with the burn spells and that is it. Sam seems to run 4 Swiftspear, 4 Ascension and 4 Reveler as well as 3 Thing in the side. It seems nice to be able to swap one of these with Thing when say for instance Swiftspear is bad in a particular matchup (i.e. Zoo). What is the general consensus for the "right" number of threats in the deck and has reveler been tested much because it seems insane in this shell.
4.The 2 flex slots (in Sam's list). At the very end Sam mentioned that Noxious Revival was unnecessary and it was very underwhelming in his matches. What would be the best card to fit in this slot. He mentioned Remand, but as I said I'm not a fan of that card in this shell. He also brought up Visions of Beyond but he rarely had 20 cards in his graveyard and when he did he was usually winning the game so this card seems unnecessary (especially since there are already 4 Revelers). When discussing sideboard plans he brought up Electrolyze which seems like a SUPER nice card to fork with Ascension. I thought about it but having 3-4 3 mana spells in this deck seems very clunky and loose especially with only 18 lands. Would a card like Forked Bolt work instead? It hits creatures (most importantly Eidolon of the Great Revel) and can point at the face when trying to find lethal. There are only 2 slots for these so it wouldn't take up too much space or be too clunky so I was just wondering what are your thoughts or better suggestions for cards in this slot.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
I do like at least 2 fastlands. I want to keep some fetches just to shuffle in case I have to put something important at the bottom of the library with sleight of hand. Basic Islands are still needed coz of Blood Moon.
1. How essential is white to this deck?
2. Remand.
3. Threat count/win condensity.
4. The 2 flex slots.
1. I feel like the white splash only really helps in a Burn or Zoo meta. If your meta is like that, then I think its better to stick with the splash. Otherwise, I'd go with U/R. As you said, the best SB cards are in white, but there are more than enough suitable alternatives. One thing I would say is that if you plan on going with Blood Moon in the SB, then the white splash is definitely not recommended.
2. I've never liked Remand in the deck. I've always replaced it with Izzet Charm. It does everything we want Remand to do, i.e. kill a resolved creature, counter a spell or loot.
3. Can't really answer this question until next Monday when I've tested Sam's version of the deck. So far, with the original version, I've found that Ascension + Burn + Thing is enough against most things that are not Abzan with 4 Path, 4 Decays and lifegain.
4. I'm gonna stick with Noxious Revival for now. The Unstorm combo is a counter to the infinite life gain in Abzan decks. I've always found Visions to be win-more in the original version, so I probably won't be using that. Electrolyze might be a good option against aggro, but I feel that we want to keep the deck as close to 1 & 2 CMC as possible. This is to be able to trigger Ascension on turn 3. That said, I would be open to considering 1 Electrolyze, but forked bolt seems like a better option.
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[Modern] RBGU Dredge RBGU RG Ponza RG UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR] G Titania, Protector of Argoth G UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
Agree with keeping the CMC of spells low. Easier for us to transform Thing in the Ice as well. Personally, I like Forked Bolt and Boros Charm (on top of helixes and bolts) for UWR list.
I liked the white splash, but the Blood Moons in the SB as Abzan hate, made it very awkward in post-board games. Gonna stick to U/R for the next few weeks to test different variations of the deck. Each to his own then I guess. =)
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[Modern] RBGU Dredge RBGU RG Ponza RG UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR] G Titania, Protector of Argoth G UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
I liked the white splash, but the Blood Moons in the SB as Abzan hate, made it very awkward in post-board games. Gonna stick to U/R for the next few weeks to test different variations of the deck. Each to his own then I guess. =)
Biggest problem with the Blood Moons is the white splash. White is only in the SB to give us good removal against Eldrazi and live gain. If we wouldn't damage us that much we could maybe give the white splash up.
I am really happy to see that people get more and more interested in this deck.
Also on a sidenote: I spoke to the mods and FZA, the original owner of this thread. I am gonna make a primer for this deck and this thread is gonna get merged into the new primer. A first version will be up shortly, but then I will be on holidays for a few weeks. After that we can make the primer better together
One thing I would really miss about the white splash is Leyline of Sanctity. It helps massively against all the discard from Jund and Abzan. I guess thats the trade off for having Blood Moons. Though in the past I still got my face wrecked by multiple goyfs after having my threats decayed. =\.
One thing I would really miss about the white splash is Leyline of Sanctity. It helps massively against all the discard from Jund and Abzan. I guess thats the trade off for having Blood Moons. Though in the past I still got my face wrecked by multiple goyfs after having my threats decayed. =\.
I'm also the only Dredge player at my LGS, so no need any graveyard hate. =D
I am not sold onto that. The deck as it is at the moment is a linear deck that can fight through discard and partly through removal. The Jund-MU is winnable 2/3 of the time from my play experience on xmage. Tbh this does not mean much, because the players on xmage are often times not the diehard Jundplayers that masteres the deck already ... even though I think that hexproof is not what we want. We want SB-cards that improve the really bad matchups. While Abrupt Decay is really bad in Jund it is the only card I fear. As Royichi Tamada said in an interview: "If they have 4 Abrupt Decay, it's difficult, if they only have 2 I can fight through". I am really thinking about giving the white splash up and going U/R. Fringe SB-cards dont help much here.
Yup, I agree. I also plan to go up to 4 Blood Moons. Also, I was getting wrecked more by Abzan. And yes, they have 4 decays main. AND 4 Paths. AND there's 4 of them at my LGS. That's why I switched to playing RG Ponza this past Monday.
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[Modern] RBGU Dredge RBGU RG Ponza RG UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR] G Titania, Protector of Argoth G UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
Yup, I agree. I also plan to go up to 4 Blood Moons. Also, I was getting wrecked more by Abzan. And yes, they have 4 decays main. AND 4 Paths. AND there's 4 of them at my LGS. That's why I switched to playing RG Ponza this past Monday.
Maybe it's more about giving them threats they need to answer. Like: going up to 4 Bedlam Revelers and 2 Monastery Swiftspears. You have threats they need to use their bullets onto. And the "real" threats can finish the job.
Nice mojito there xD. That looks like me when I'm doing uni assignments.
Back to relevant matters, vids of Shaun McLaren playing Tamada's version of the deck are on SCG Free now. Will comment more after I've finished watching all of em. He's just picked up the deck, so I don't really have high hopes for it. Man, I wish there was a vid/article of Tamada playing/commenting on the deck.
Nice mojito there xD. That looks like me when I'm doing uni assignments.
Back to relevant matters, vids of Shaun McLaren playing Tamada's version of the deck are on SCG Free now. Will comment more after I've finished watching all of em. He's just picked up the deck, so I don't really have high hopes for it. Man, I wish there was a vid/article of Tamada playing/commenting on the deck.
I already searched for videos of Tamada and I got some of a japanese store playing FNMs or another tournament. You want me to find it again before I head off into the holidays?
Wait, there are videos of Tamada playing the deck ?! Can't seem to find them in youtube. =(
I actually got confused and messed up: I was not talking about Ryoichi Tamada. I only found videos of Okada Naoya, who Tamada contributes to being the inventor of the deck.
I am not totally sure what you mean with this quote, but I am assuming you are referring to the "bounce" effect of Thing in the Ice bouncing your own creatures. If so, I just want to point out that Thing in the Ice does not bounce the Reveler as it is a Horror.
I have played this deck the last 3 times at my LGS and I really like the deck. The white splash (Lightning Helix specifically) has won me its fair share of games, so I will probably plan on continuing with White. I do have Blood Moons in the side but as others have pointed out, the white splash makes it awkward, so they will probably get cut.
My worst matchup so far has been against control decks. I played against a Grixis control deck and they just always seemed to have an answer to everything I cast. I just couldn't keep up. I am trying to figure out how to make that matchup better (if possible). Maybe it was just bad draws on my part.
I think I will be adding in 2 Revelers and cutting 2 Visions of Beyond as Kingfuzius suggested.
Remand can sometimes be awkward. I have had a couple scenarios where I wanted to transform Thing in the Ice, but the only instant I had was Remand and I couldn't cast it. Kitt suggested Izzet Charm and I think that is a pretty good card in place of Remand.
Boros Charm has been mentioned too, but I am not sure where I would fit that in.
I am not totally sure what you mean with this quote, but I am assuming you are referring to the "bounce" effect of Thing in the Ice bouncing your own creatures. If so, I just want to point out that Thing in the Ice does not bounce the Reveler as it is a Horror.
I have played this deck the last 3 times at my LGS and I really like the deck. The white splash (Lightning Helix specifically) has won me its fair share of games, so I will probably plan on continuing with White. I do have Blood Moons in the side but as others have pointed out, the white splash makes it awkward, so they will probably get cut.
My worst matchup so far has been against control decks. I played against a Grixis control deck and they just always seemed to have an answer to everything I cast. I just couldn't keep up. I am trying to figure out how to make that matchup better (if possible). Maybe it was just bad draws on my part.
I think I will be adding in 2 Revelers and cutting 2 Visions of Beyond as Kingfuzius suggested.
Remand can sometimes be awkward. I have had a couple scenarios where I wanted to transform Thing in the Ice, but the only instant I had was Remand and I couldn't cast it. Kitt suggested Izzet Charm and I think that is a pretty good card in place of Remand.
Boros Charm has been mentioned too, but I am not sure where I would fit that in.
I had the feeling too, that sometimes fighting control felt impossible. But this is reall draw dependend. I was thinking about a split of Remand / Izzet Charm. One thing you should not forget that even a Remand in hand can draw you cards if you flashback a Faithless Looting.
That's true. I have actually cast a Lightning Bolt followed by Remand to turn on Ascension, and Remanding the bolt, to draw a card and get 2 bolts (after casting it again and copying it). It is not the most efficient, but sometimes that extra 3 damage is all that is needed.
I have been testing Izzet Charm in place of Remand for now just to see what it does and I really like the card so far. I think you're right that a split is probably best and so far I think Izzet Charm fits somewhere in the deck.
I tried incorporating the Unstorm combo into the original Thing Ascension deck by replacing 1 Remand, 1 Vision & 1 Looting with 3 Noxious Revival. I found that it still folds to Abzan, which is really prevalent in my LGS meta. I have not tested Sam Black's latest list. I will be playing that list this coming Monday. Hopefully will have decided on a proper SB by then as Sam said that the SB he used was simply thrown together.
I agree that Thing + Swiftspear is kinda counter-intuitive, but if you watch the videos, Sam never boards out any Swiftspears, even when he bring in the Things. There was also a game where he played 3 spells, left the Thing at 1 counter, swung with 2 swiftspears, then only flipped the Thing.
I do really like being pure U/R, but losing the mainboard helix and SB Rests will make Burn a lot tougher.
@Kingfuzlus,
My experience with the original Thing Ascension deck thus far has been abysmal as the meta at my LGS is quite similar to that of the World Championship this year, i.e. Abzan galore. As Ryoichi Tamada said in his interview at the event, Abzan with 4 Abrupt Decay is very hard to beat. Decay and Path will is disastrous for the deck. Having said that, I expect Sam Black's to fair slightly better due to the added pressure that Reveller brings. Now to make a proper SB.
RBGU Dredge RBGU
RG Ponza RG
UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR]
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB
UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
So I'm thinking of getting into this deck but for now I pretty only have UR cards(no foundries, paths, helices, or stony silences) so I'll probably end up building a version similar to Sam's build.I have quite a few questions about this deck.
1. How essential is white to this deck? I feel like this is an interesting question now that a UR build has surfaced. While the white splash seems nice for burn, you are adding extra shocks and potentially fetches which do add up in the long run. Some sideboard cards like Stony Silence or Rest in Peace could be replaced with Shatterstorm (or any other red artifact hate) and Grafdigger's Cage just as examples. So really it feels like the big additions white has are Lightning Helix and Rest for the Weary but is that worth it?
2. Remand. As someone who used to play a lot of storm, and then UR delver during the cruise era this type of card never seemed to fit in at all. This is a very proactive deck that plays and chains lots of spells together on our turn so why so we want a card that reacts with the opponent in the mainboard? I feel like this slot could be better utilized.
3. Threat count/win condensity. Most lists I've seen run the 4 Ascension and 4 Thing to pair with the burn spells and that is it. Sam seems to run 4 Swiftspear, 4 Ascension and 4 Reveler as well as 3 Thing in the side. It seems nice to be able to swap one of these with Thing when say for instance Swiftspear is bad in a particular matchup (i.e. Zoo). What is the general consensus for the "right" number of threats in the deck and has reveler been tested much because it seems insane in this shell.
4.The 2 flex slots (in Sam's list). At the very end Sam mentioned that Noxious Revival was unnecessary and it was very underwhelming in his matches. What would be the best card to fit in this slot. He mentioned Remand, but as I said I'm not a fan of that card in this shell. He also brought up Visions of Beyond but he rarely had 20 cards in his graveyard and when he did he was usually winning the game so this card seems unnecessary (especially since there are already 4 Revelers). When discussing sideboard plans he brought up Electrolyze which seems like a SUPER nice card to fork with Ascension. I thought about it but having 3-4 3 mana spells in this deck seems very clunky and loose especially with only 18 lands. Would a card like Forked Bolt work instead? It hits creatures (most importantly Eidolon of the Great Revel) and can point at the face when trying to find lethal. There are only 2 slots for these so it wouldn't take up too much space or be too clunky so I was just wondering what are your thoughts or better suggestions for cards in this slot.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
I do like at least 2 fastlands. I want to keep some fetches just to shuffle in case I have to put something important at the bottom of the library with sleight of hand. Basic Islands are still needed coz of Blood Moon.
1. I feel like the white splash only really helps in a Burn or Zoo meta. If your meta is like that, then I think its better to stick with the splash. Otherwise, I'd go with U/R. As you said, the best SB cards are in white, but there are more than enough suitable alternatives. One thing I would say is that if you plan on going with Blood Moon in the SB, then the white splash is definitely not recommended.
2. I've never liked Remand in the deck. I've always replaced it with Izzet Charm. It does everything we want Remand to do, i.e. kill a resolved creature, counter a spell or loot.
3. Can't really answer this question until next Monday when I've tested Sam's version of the deck. So far, with the original version, I've found that Ascension + Burn + Thing is enough against most things that are not Abzan with 4 Path, 4 Decays and lifegain.
4. I'm gonna stick with Noxious Revival for now. The Unstorm combo is a counter to the infinite life gain in Abzan decks. I've always found Visions to be win-more in the original version, so I probably won't be using that. Electrolyze might be a good option against aggro, but I feel that we want to keep the deck as close to 1 & 2 CMC as possible. This is to be able to trigger Ascension on turn 3. That said, I would be open to considering 1 Electrolyze, but forked bolt seems like a better option.
RBGU Dredge RBGU
RG Ponza RG
UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR]
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB
UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
RBGU Dredge RBGU
RG Ponza RG
UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR]
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB
UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
Biggest problem with the Blood Moons is the white splash. White is only in the SB to give us good removal against Eldrazi and live gain. If we wouldn't damage us that much we could maybe give the white splash up.
I am really happy to see that people get more and more interested in this deck.
Also on a sidenote: I spoke to the mods and FZA, the original owner of this thread. I am gonna make a primer for this deck and this thread is gonna get merged into the new primer. A first version will be up shortly, but then I will be on holidays for a few weeks. After that we can make the primer better together
Greetings
King
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
For reference:
3 Rest for the Weary
3 Blood Moon
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Swan Song
I'm also the only Dredge player at my LGS, so no need any graveyard hate. =D
RBGU Dredge RBGU
RG Ponza RG
UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR]
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB
UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
I am not sold onto that. The deck as it is at the moment is a linear deck that can fight through discard and partly through removal. The Jund-MU is winnable 2/3 of the time from my play experience on xmage. Tbh this does not mean much, because the players on xmage are often times not the diehard Jundplayers that masteres the deck already ... even though I think that hexproof is not what we want. We want SB-cards that improve the really bad matchups. While Abrupt Decay is really bad in Jund it is the only card I fear. As Royichi Tamada said in an interview: "If they have 4 Abrupt Decay, it's difficult, if they only have 2 I can fight through". I am really thinking about giving the white splash up and going U/R. Fringe SB-cards dont help much here.
Greetings
King
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
RBGU Dredge RBGU
RG Ponza RG
UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR]
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB
UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
Maybe it's more about giving them threats they need to answer. Like: going up to 4 Bedlam Revelers and 2 Monastery Swiftspears. You have threats they need to use their bullets onto. And the "real" threats can finish the job.
Greetings
King
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
Plus: I am working on a primer while drinking.
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
Back to relevant matters, vids of Shaun McLaren playing Tamada's version of the deck are on SCG Free now. Will comment more after I've finished watching all of em. He's just picked up the deck, so I don't really have high hopes for it. Man, I wish there was a vid/article of Tamada playing/commenting on the deck.
RBGU Dredge RBGU
RG Ponza RG
UR Thing in the Ice Ascension UR
[EDH/CMDR]
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born UB
UWR Zedruu, the Greathearted UWR
I already searched for videos of Tamada and I got some of a japanese store playing FNMs or another tournament. You want me to find it again before I head off into the holidays?
Greetings
King
//edit: It's actually a Caipirinha
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
I actually got confused and messed up: I was not talking about Ryoichi Tamada. I only found videos of Okada Naoya, who Tamada contributes to being the inventor of the deck.
Video can be found here.
GreetingsKing
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
I have played this deck the last 3 times at my LGS and I really like the deck. The white splash (Lightning Helix specifically) has won me its fair share of games, so I will probably plan on continuing with White. I do have Blood Moons in the side but as others have pointed out, the white splash makes it awkward, so they will probably get cut.
My worst matchup so far has been against control decks. I played against a Grixis control deck and they just always seemed to have an answer to everything I cast. I just couldn't keep up. I am trying to figure out how to make that matchup better (if possible). Maybe it was just bad draws on my part.
I think I will be adding in 2 Revelers and cutting 2 Visions of Beyond as Kingfuzius suggested.
Remand can sometimes be awkward. I have had a couple scenarios where I wanted to transform Thing in the Ice, but the only instant I had was Remand and I couldn't cast it. Kitt suggested Izzet Charm and I think that is a pretty good card in place of Remand.
Boros Charm has been mentioned too, but I am not sure where I would fit that in.
I had the feeling too, that sometimes fighting control felt impossible. But this is reall draw dependend. I was thinking about a split of Remand / Izzet Charm. One thing you should not forget that even a Remand in hand can draw you cards if you flashback a Faithless Looting.
Greetings
King
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
I have been testing Izzet Charm in place of Remand for now just to see what it does and I really like the card so far. I think you're right that a split is probably best and so far I think Izzet Charm fits somewhere in the deck.