If you do actually try to play Hit // Run, you need to make sure Tron's board is clear of Signets/Chromatic _____. Otherwise they can just sac one of those things instead of an Emrakul or Wumcoil Engine. It's also a very painful card to reveal with Dark Confidant; you'll lose a whopping 8 life if revealed because you'll lose the sum of the two converted mana costs on a split card.
Most people just assume that he should go in everything because he's just absurd (which he is) but there are decks for him and decks not for him. If you're playing the eight three-drop Doran aggro deck then you should run Thalia instead.
The big problem with Mystic Enforcer is the fact that Deathrite Shaman has become so present in Modern lately. It's hard to get threshold when Deathrite Shaman is picking off your graveyard.
Also for what its worth, I really love Elspeth.
Oh right! I forgot. I have 4 of those in my MD at that lol. Yeah, that's not going to work out.
The trick with Liliana is to play cards that you don't mind pitching with her +1, or just play enough cheap cards that you'll be empty or just pitching excess lands anyway. Lingering Souls is a prime candidate for a +1 discard.
I just can't bin things ~__~ I feel like there's too much value going, and funnily, my mana base actually needs to grow fairly large since I play something along tempo, a lot of good games involved me tapping out more than 10 lands due to activations of vault, podding, regens, etc., while still leaving mana open for removal.
-----------------------------------
I was thinking of using Auriok Champion as a card that could set us apart from Jund while also improving that matchup. Jund only has as many outs to this card as it has Lilianas, and of course I will have more than one creature on the board most of the time. The card bricks every Jund creature except Goyf. IDK, but I think its worth some test games to see how things go.
Auriok Champion does sound like a prime sideboard option, could stall out games very well.
The "Soul Sister" ability is very useful against Twin and Pod decks as a bonus, and Twin only has a few bounce spells to deal with that plus any other hate.
Mirran Crusader is also worth considering, IF Lightning Bolt doesn't get played. Since that card is an auto four-of in Jund Crusader seems much less appealing. Did you know that the only other creature with Protection from Green in the entire format is a BB 1/1 from Planar Chaos? Weird!
I'm considering terribly maindecking 1 Mirran Crusader and 1 Phyrexian Crusader, mostly because I'm running Pod, and both crusaders are a pain to deal with. Tag in a second one for game two after knowing their colors.
T3 P.Crux/M.Crux
T4 Elspeth, +3/+3 Flying. 5 poison counters? 10 Damage? There goes half their life, other half ready to go next turn if they don't have an answer.
I'm going to try instant-speed sacrifice effects next. Geth's Verdict and Tribute to Hunger can both keep an Emrakul from hitting me and force my opponent to use Eye of Ugin to get it back. It buys me a turn. What if I could one-shot the opponent while also keeping Emrakul from hitting me? Are you ready for some super secret tech I found while searching Gatherer...?
As earlier mentioned, Hit, is well, going to Hit us pretty hard if you flip it over with Bob. Seal of Doom can spot remove an Emrakul if necessary, only problem is they can spot remove your seal.
Deathrite Shaman can play with your own graveyard-needy cards no problem. Sure, there's some overlap occasionally, but more often than not you'll be picking off the opponent's graveyard.
Why doesn't anyone run Knight of the Reliquary? The Knight gets massive pretty easily and can fetch engine-lands such as Arena, Vault, Gavony Township, Bojuka Bog, even Ghost Quarter. It still plays well with Deathrite since the Shaman is only used for mana in the first few turns and you typically can pick off the opponent's yard. I've been experimenting with the Knight and it acts to give us a strong engine and huge body, reasons enough to not run Jund.
I'm still trying to figure out the best blend of nonbasics for advantage, but rolling with Arena and Vault has been solid. It also helps to fetch out Ghost Quarters against Tron.
I've also been running Grisly Salvage to give a lot of power to the deck. I'd like to play additional graveyard cards other than Lingering Souls or maybe utility creatures to 'fetch' but have gotten good quality out of the card without those options. Playing Planeswalkers gives you plenty of fuel for a massive 'goyf to swing on turn 3. I'd like to run Tidehollow mainboard as well for this reason but haven't gotten as much value out of him lately.
Knight of the Reliquary has been falling out of favor due to Deathrite Shaman. I think those match-ups are fine as long as removal is used aggressively on them, generally Tarmogoyf is good against those decks due to the exalted creatures.
This is my Junk list, Lingering Souls aren't used because most creature match-ups aren't bad and generally Elspeth, Knight-Errant is better.
The downsides of this deck are against decks with Wrath of God or Oblivion Stone. If Tron becomes popular, Golgari Charm should be considered in the sideboard. Burn may be tricky as well, Leyline of Sanctity or Obstinate Baloth are both good options and help against Jund as well.
Updates on my list:
-1 Tidehollow Sculler
+1 Golgari Thug
Picture this:
Eternal Witness in the graveyard
Golgari Thug in play
Pod thug
Thug brings back witness
Witness gets podded in
Witness brings back whatever you want.
Thug puts more whatevers into your graveyard by dredging.
Repeat.
Theoretically you could recast any spell over and over per turn if you have a way of killing the witness. With enough mana you could recast Damnation every turn.
And by enough mana I mean 8. (Or 7+2 life)
I could also pull out all of my kitchen finks while I'm at it.
Get a funeral charm, and put them into a discard lock for a total of 5 mana per turn. Again, a sac outlet would be necessary though.
If you do actually try to play Hit // Run, you need to make sure Tron's board is clear of Signets/Chromatic _____. Otherwise they can just sac one of those things instead of an Emrakul or Wumcoil Engine. It's also a very painful card to reveal with Dark Confidant; you'll lose a whopping 8 life if revealed because you'll lose the sum of the two converted mana costs on a split card.
That's where the "do they know I have it?" comes in. I don't know of any good lines of play from Tron where holding cantrips in play does any good, and in nearly all board states where Emrakul is coming in its usually that & Karn as the only permanents left on the field at that point. Still, this can backfire and I'll try Tribute To Hunger as well.
I don't mind paying 8 life off a flip if Hit ends up being a "hit" in this match up. We're mainly being hurt by our lands and other Bob flips until the end of the game when we're facing a bunch of 6/6s.
Ses: How are the match ups working out for you? Have you been able to try your list out against Jund? I think in your latest list you can cut to 24 or 23 lands since you curve out at four. I agree that you want a full set of Paths first, THEN add Dismembers as additional Paths.
DRK: Not yet. Kibler's list does that, however, and I could see us building a Junk-colored variant of the GW Little Kid list. I have a Little Kid list that runs Deathrite Shaman instead of Birds and plays a couple of Fauna Shamans. Its easier to justify Tidehollow Sculler in a list like that as well.
On Liliana: Just try it. Trust me, its good. Its either a removal spell, or a discard spell when you need either of them. Having Lili around should prevent you from grinding into games where you need ten lands in play, since she will clear out opposing blockers and can +1 into an ultimate that forces every non-interactive deck to play something or lose... Get on Cockatrice, load you list with a few of Lili fit in, and I think you'll see how nice that effect is.
Is she the best card in the deck? Nope! Deathrite Shaman or Bob get that distinction, but in many matchups she still does good work. She is a bit worse off now that Lingering Souls is a thing, but she's still a beating when she is cast on turn 2.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
ya i was playing gw bears with shamans too but i found it wasn't preforming well enough for me but i really like how souls+leige+smiter works against jund so for now i'm cutting doran's to test out leiges
I really like Birthing Pod in here as an engine, but when I tested Ses's list I didn't like having my bomb 4-drop (Elspeth) not be pod-fetchable. Too many times I'd have a board of a pod and a used Eternal witness and nothing to pod into. In place of her, I am currently testing Hero of Bladehold. Holy crap does she put on a clock. If you pod a not yet persisted finks into her, you swing for 10 the next turn and game the turn after. Her 4-butt is also huge, allowing her to be un-boltable and not die to surprise Resto-angel blocks. Also, the 4 mana cost means she can't be abrupt decayed. I'm not sure whether she's better than elspeth, but she's certainly better with pod in the mix. (I think, at least). Thoughts? The only small downside I can see is that battle cry doesn't play well with Doran, but at the moment I'm not running him.
Also, when I play RG Artifact Tron, I am so excruciatingly lazy with my Chromatic Eggs after I assemble the Tron that I tend to leave them lying around for rainy days. I also leave Relic of Progenitus lying around until I can hose a card with it. My build also plays Prophetic Prism (not all builds do); it's the ultimate Hit fodder. I've never seen Hit played against me before and I automatically play around it.
Mshnik, that's pretty sweet, but at that point why not just go for Melira & Viscera Seer and combo out? I feel like if Pod is going to be the centerpiece of the deck, then you should have a way to win with it on the spot.
Lectrys: The Tron list in my gauntlet runs 4x Relic and Pyroclasms maindeck over the Prophetic Prism, but you're right. Not everyone is going to be on the gauntlet list that I copied from the last GP. Tribute to Hunger is the safer choice.
This deck is SO hard to answer! Most engine decks have some sort of weakness to cards like Rule of Law or Stony Silence, but few easy ways to remove those answers without diverging from their main plan. Every Echoing Truth that a Storm player brings in to bounce Thalia or Rule of Law is another card that they can whiff on during their combo turn. That's not the case with RG Tron. Tron gets to play a card that says "exile target permanent-based hate card" and another card that says "sac this, kill ALL of the non land cards." So all of the tappers, Bridges, and other permanents are not safe from this deck going about its business.
I'm trying the spell-based disruption, but those options are limited to sac effects because nothing can target Emrakul. I hear that guy's (girl?) is pretty good...
The best plan might be land destruction. The nuclear option may be to just board into a set of Ghost Quarters and Extirpates. Take out a Tron land, Extirpate it, and now you have a few turns before they can hard-cast Wurmcoils. A few Jund lists play Sowing Salt, but that may not be fast enough.
I'm out of ideas. I looked through every card in White, Black, Green, and Red and all of the Artifacts in the format, and there's not much that can deal with the combination of Emrakul, Oblivion Stone, AND Karn. The sacrifice effects are the best instant speed effects that I can find, and the land destruction is the best sorcery speed answer that doesn't just lose to one of Tron's other cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
HSC: I don't want it to become Pod, but I see what you mean. My reasoning is that With pod (like with most combos) you have a bunch of cards that are very sub-par on their own. Hero of bladehold is very strong even if all you do is drop it on turn 4. I'm just saying that with any number of pod in the mix, Hero > Elspeth. Even without Pod, hero is a good deal faster than elspeth, and doesn't loose much.
For the tron mu I bring in 3 fulminater mages 2 surgical 2 stony silence 1 damping matix and my 6th discard spell. I find i'm able to throw them off tron for long enough i win or kill a tron land+surgical=win
Sure! I'd look at the Kibler list and adapt it to Junk colors, or try a CawBlade Junk strategy like I mentioned a page back. You can also go for more of a control route like a couple other posters are doing and take advantage of Birthing Pod or play more removal into bigger threats.
Without Goyf, Deathrite Shaman gets better in your list, and you can run more graveyard hate without worrying about blanking your own guy.
Thanks, DRK. I'll get more games in tonight, although I need to prep for a Standard tournament this Saturday as well and try that out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
If that's your "casual," what on earth is required for "formal," a butler in livery shuffling the decks whilst a pianist plays Brahms in front of a tapestry?
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~ Brian DeMars
Most people just assume that he should go in everything because he's just absurd (which he is) but there are decks for him and decks not for him. If you're playing the eight three-drop Doran aggro deck then you should run Thalia instead.
Oh right! I forgot. I have 4 of those in my MD at that lol. Yeah, that's not going to work out.
Why doesn't anyone run Knight of the Reliquary? The Knight gets massive pretty easily and can fetch engine-lands such as Arena, Vault, Gavony Township, Bojuka Bog, even Ghost Quarter. It still plays well with Deathrite since the Shaman is only used for mana in the first few turns and you typically can pick off the opponent's yard. I've been experimenting with the Knight and it acts to give us a strong engine and huge body, reasons enough to not run Jund.
I'm still trying to figure out the best blend of nonbasics for advantage, but rolling with Arena and Vault has been solid. It also helps to fetch out Ghost Quarters against Tron.
I've also been running Grisly Salvage to give a lot of power to the deck. I'd like to play additional graveyard cards other than Lingering Souls or maybe utility creatures to 'fetch' but have gotten good quality out of the card without those options. Playing Planeswalkers gives you plenty of fuel for a massive 'goyf to swing on turn 3. I'd like to run Tidehollow mainboard as well for this reason but haven't gotten as much value out of him lately.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Grisly Salvage
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Arena
1 Gavony Township
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
2 Duress
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Naturalize
-MTG Salvation.
One reason I don't run it is because I feel like I wouldn't have enough plains/forests to sacrifice anyway.
I'm still missing a few cards but currently, here's what I'm going to go for
1 Temple Garden
2 Godless Shrine
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Gavony Township
2 Vault of the Archangel
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures (17):
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Phyrexian Crusader
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Artifacts (2):
2 Birthing Pod
Planeswalkers (2):
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Loxodon Smiter
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
2 Infest
3 Sudden Death
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Creature counts are still being tweaked. I'm starting to feel like my Dismembers might turn into Path to Exiles.
This is my Junk list, Lingering Souls aren't used because most creature match-ups aren't bad and generally Elspeth, Knight-Errant is better.
The downsides of this deck are against decks with Wrath of God or Oblivion Stone. If Tron becomes popular, Golgari Charm should be considered in the sideboard. Burn may be tricky as well, Leyline of Sanctity or Obstinate Baloth are both good options and help against Jund as well.
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
1 Arid Mesa
2 Temple Garden
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thoughtseize
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
-1 Tidehollow Sculler
+1 Golgari Thug
Picture this:
Eternal Witness in the graveyard
Golgari Thug in play
Pod thug
Thug brings back witness
Witness gets podded in
Witness brings back whatever you want.
Thug puts more whatevers into your graveyard by dredging.
Repeat.
Theoretically you could recast any spell over and over per turn if you have a way of killing the witness. With enough mana you could recast Damnation every turn.
And by enough mana I mean 8. (Or 7+2 life)
I could also pull out all of my kitchen finks while I'm at it.
Get a funeral charm, and put them into a discard lock for a total of 5 mana per turn. Again, a sac outlet would be necessary though.
That's where the "do they know I have it?" comes in. I don't know of any good lines of play from Tron where holding cantrips in play does any good, and in nearly all board states where Emrakul is coming in its usually that & Karn as the only permanents left on the field at that point. Still, this can backfire and I'll try Tribute To Hunger as well.
I don't mind paying 8 life off a flip if Hit ends up being a "hit" in this match up. We're mainly being hurt by our lands and other Bob flips until the end of the game when we're facing a bunch of 6/6s.
Ses: How are the match ups working out for you? Have you been able to try your list out against Jund? I think in your latest list you can cut to 24 or 23 lands since you curve out at four. I agree that you want a full set of Paths first, THEN add Dismembers as additional Paths.
DRK: Not yet. Kibler's list does that, however, and I could see us building a Junk-colored variant of the GW Little Kid list. I have a Little Kid list that runs Deathrite Shaman instead of Birds and plays a couple of Fauna Shamans. Its easier to justify Tidehollow Sculler in a list like that as well.
On Liliana: Just try it. Trust me, its good. Its either a removal spell, or a discard spell when you need either of them. Having Lili around should prevent you from grinding into games where you need ten lands in play, since she will clear out opposing blockers and can +1 into an ultimate that forces every non-interactive deck to play something or lose... Get on Cockatrice, load you list with a few of Lili fit in, and I think you'll see how nice that effect is.
Is she the best card in the deck? Nope! Deathrite Shaman or Bob get that distinction, but in many matchups she still does good work. She is a bit worse off now that Lingering Souls is a thing, but she's still a beating when she is cast on turn 2.
~ Brian DeMars
~ Brian DeMars
UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia
Play Magic online free with GCCG!
Download it here -- (My Username is ShinkyP)
Trade Thread: Here!
Better catch U/x Tron without Signets or Expedition Map.
Also, when I play RG Artifact Tron, I am so excruciatingly lazy with my Chromatic Eggs after I assemble the Tron that I tend to leave them lying around for rainy days. I also leave Relic of Progenitus lying around until I can hose a card with it. My build also plays Prophetic Prism (not all builds do); it's the ultimate Hit fodder. I've never seen Hit played against me before and I automatically play around it.
Lectrys: The Tron list in my gauntlet runs 4x Relic and Pyroclasms maindeck over the Prophetic Prism, but you're right. Not everyone is going to be on the gauntlet list that I copied from the last GP. Tribute to Hunger is the safer choice.
This deck is SO hard to answer! Most engine decks have some sort of weakness to cards like Rule of Law or Stony Silence, but few easy ways to remove those answers without diverging from their main plan. Every Echoing Truth that a Storm player brings in to bounce Thalia or Rule of Law is another card that they can whiff on during their combo turn. That's not the case with RG Tron. Tron gets to play a card that says "exile target permanent-based hate card" and another card that says "sac this, kill ALL of the non land cards." So all of the tappers, Bridges, and other permanents are not safe from this deck going about its business.
I'm trying the spell-based disruption, but those options are limited to sac effects because nothing can target Emrakul. I hear that guy's (girl?) is pretty good...
The best plan might be land destruction. The nuclear option may be to just board into a set of Ghost Quarters and Extirpates. Take out a Tron land, Extirpate it, and now you have a few turns before they can hard-cast Wurmcoils. A few Jund lists play Sowing Salt, but that may not be fast enough.
I'm out of ideas. I looked through every card in White, Black, Green, and Red and all of the Artifacts in the format, and there's not much that can deal with the combination of Emrakul, Oblivion Stone, AND Karn. The sacrifice effects are the best instant speed effects that I can find, and the land destruction is the best sorcery speed answer that doesn't just lose to one of Tron's other cards.
~ Brian DeMars
UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia
Play Magic online free with GCCG!
Download it here -- (My Username is ShinkyP)
Trade Thread: Here!
Updated 11/01/13
-->Standard:
:symwg::symwg::symwg: Aggressive Midrange
:symu::symu::symu: Devotion
-->Modern:
:symwg::symrg::symug: Kiki-Jiki Pod
:0mana::symur::0mana: Affinity
Sure! I'd look at the Kibler list and adapt it to Junk colors, or try a CawBlade Junk strategy like I mentioned a page back. You can also go for more of a control route like a couple other posters are doing and take advantage of Birthing Pod or play more removal into bigger threats.
Without Goyf, Deathrite Shaman gets better in your list, and you can run more graveyard hate without worrying about blanking your own guy.
Thanks, DRK. I'll get more games in tonight, although I need to prep for a Standard tournament this Saturday as well and try that out.
~ Brian DeMars
3 doran, the seige tower
2 loxadan smiter
4 tidehollow sculler
2 qasali pridemage
4 deathrite shaman
3 noble hierarch
3 abrupt decay
2 path to exile
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
2 maelstrom pulse
4 overgrown tomb
4 godless shrine
4 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
1 forest
1 plains
2 swamp
2 stirring wildwood
1 murmuring bosk
2 treetop village
MY goyf-less build. It is really loose (I just threw it together) but could possibly be adapted to be tighter.
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I hate the reserved list.
Mythic rares are fine.