Yes bant can use ajani, which is what they will be testing... But my testing shows that bant cant use rancor like we can. Also testing has shown only green/red stompy decks (which is still not enough to put them over the edge), infect (Which is still just a dangerous surprise deck, nothing more.) and Zoo can use it to its full potential.
I can agree, that we have the better strategy to play Rancor. Im just kinda feeling that Red hasnt gotten any Love from the Past few sets. we got 3 cards out of the Last block!(huntmaster, Slayers' Stronghold, & Kessig Wolfrun) Im running the lands. And i have Huntmaster as my 5th BBE. I just think it be nice to get a new 3cmc Creature, or a new burn spell that works with Cascade
well we need the snapcaster of red. I joke with people that Zoo is being held down by the fact we only have 1 2cmc broken card. Blue gets snappy, black gets bob. We only get tarmo... since our white one is banned and the red one isnt invented yet.
@Belekuris: I would consider ditching a Vexing Devil for a Path to exile. It's one the best cards right now and in a pinch you can use it to get that land you need.
(Wow, this turned out to be A LOT longer than I expected, I apologize in advance)
I just got back into magic after a few years and I've been tinkering with a Zoo deck for a while now.
First of all, I'm trying to go cheap (as in money) but effective, so I'm not playing Tarmogoyf and I've tried to minimize the land costs a bit.
Terramorphic expanse is of course slower than true fectchlands, but it's a lot cheaper (again, in money terms), let's you grab any basic land and it doesn't cost life, so all in all, not such a bad trade since my main focus is to pump up the KotR and Lynx. I sometimes wish I had a Stomping ground in there and I know I should have Windswept Heath instead of Marsh flats, but the price difference is just too much, and I wouldn't know what to ditch for the Stomping ground considering I have to have enough basic lands for the Terramorphic expanse.
I've extensively tested the land base though and I found it works most of the time as it is, but of course comments are more than welcomed.
I haven't tested the Proclamation of rebirth as much as it needs to be, but it's pretty cheap (in mana) and a great way to recover from a board wipe considering I'm running 12 1cmc creatures.
Everything works with BBE's cascade so that's nice, since that means you're set with 5 mana (BBE + 1 for Thalia), and since no card requires more than one mana of any one color it's easy to set up a working land situation.
I've done some testing with Rancor, and I'm definitely going to include 2. It can turn you're 1cmc dudes into intense threats. A 6/5 Lynx or a 4/3 Ape with trample in turn 2 is going to hurt anyone. I'm unsure of what I'll remove, except maybe one vexing devil.
I've also tried using a few Goblin Guide in there, but I feel like the extra speed it gives the opponent really hurts this version of the deck so I tossed it out. Same with the lavamancer, although I may reconsider there.
I also tested the Ranger of Eos but found it too expensive for my taste, at 4cmc I want something a little more powerful, considering the KotR is 3cmc and the BBE is 4cmc but basically gives you a free card (for one more if you have thalia down). Maybe if I were running the GG it would work better, but I don't see the use in tutoring a ape/lion/lynx/vexing in turn 4, considering they would hit at turn 6.
All in all I think it's a pretty effective build that stays true to the Zoo archetype, but still needs some work to be great. Sometimes I feel like there need's to be more removal there specially against Tron, reanimator and Vengevine based decks, but I guess that's what sideboards are for. I also don't love the pridemage, but haven't found anything great to replace it with, and mainbording artifact/enchantment hate can really help win g1 in some matchups.
I'd love any comments and suggestions about this, specially since it's my first real deck build in 4+ years and I may have overlooked some great cards.
That's a relief regarding Windswept Heath, one less card I can feel guilty about not having haha
You're right regarding the BBE targets but I don't consider it that much of a downside.
I usually don't play it if i have Thalia down unless I'm really desperate, and getting a Ape in turn 4 is not great but in the end it's just speeding things up since I would have topdecked it in a few turns (and if I'm playing the BBE I don't usually need more lands) and the BBE's body is useful in itself.
I had just 2 BBE because of that and I'll probably go back to that once m13 hits, so I can get a rancor in there.
I now realize I said getting a ape/lion/lynx/vexing in turn 4 was no good when talking about the ranger and now I'm saying it's acceptable with the BBE, but the difference is that BBE hit's the turn it gets in, you don't have to pay for what you cascade into and sometimes you cascade into great things, like a KotR or a Lightning Helix, plus it puts lands on the bottom of the library, clearing the way for more useful stuff, while the Ranger only lands me two small dudes I have to pay for the next turn.
I'm really curious what everyone's response to blood moon is, since I've found it pretty hard to play against, unless I have the right basic lands and a pridemage, of course.
I have been blind-sighted in G1 before but when I know I am playing against it just grab the basic lands right away.
I would -1 mountain and add another basic. Make sure you get your green and white mana correct as a slayer stronghold can be used as a mountain against the moon.
I have to agree that it SUCKS to not be able to play anything.
Well, yeah, if I know it's coming I look for the basics and that's it but if I don't it's not uncommon for me to relay on the shocklands for example.
I was just curious if there's something I'm missing about it since it it get's pretty bad if I don't have a Plains and a Forest before it hits. G2 is obviously a lot simpler.
I would say there's nothing you could do...other than just be extra cautious all the time. I don't run into many decks that run moon effects mainboard.
Thalia is fine, she does pose a bit of a unsynergistic problem with blood braid, but actually not too much. I have 2 thalia MD in my big zoo with BBE and a 3rd in the side because she is that good. I dont like proc or ranger of eos too much in Zoo. Reason why is because I would rather be hurting them right then and there. If I wanted to recover from a wipe (which are uncommon in modern to begin with) I'd rather sword of light and shadow, or Blood braid elf.
Personally, I think you got to look at what proc and eos does in soul sisters. The impact is right away. Dudes get bigger, life is gained, ect. for us, we replay beaters. Usually when my board is wiped, I drop knight I was saving for the wipe and kill them.
Yeah, that's correct. The cascaded spell resolves while Bloodbraid Elf is still on the stack, so Bloodbraid cannot be a target for it. You'd have to enchant an opponents creature then kill it, that way Racor will bounce to your hand from your graveyard, as you are the owner of the enchantment.
You can just choose not to cast it. This would be the appropriate play. Running BBE and Rancor together is still a bad idea, though.
iono i feel if it isnt a Good cascade target that can affect the board when u cast it after a wipe, i dont want it.
This is want i Playing Right now
Dudes=21
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Thalia
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Snapcaster
3x Knight of the R
3x Geist of Saint T
3x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Huntmaster Of the Fells
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
My play group wanna try it as another 2 BoPs, Any idea on a instant that can break or make a turn? Maybe a Phyrexian spell? or should it be a Naya Charm for alpha swings?
Probably this was asked a ton of time before, but im going for it anyway.
Can Strangleroot Geist be a cheap alternative to Tarmo (i'm going to buy this bad guy sooner or later but i cant afford him right now)?
I know he's not going to be the lategame powerhouse goyf can be, but he can eat a bolt (and if he eat a second one i'm more than happy), has haste and can hit quite hard. The only real problem i see in him is GG in his casting cost.
Otherwise what can i use?
At the moment i'm running the "Thalia Zoo" list in the opening of this primer (i've got to start somewhere, right?). Considering that some mana dork it's not optimal imo (if i want to go bigger i should probably play bant, i think)..
I actually needed to update that to this list, as it just 4-0d online 3 times in one week...
Tarmos hard to replace. But if you focus on speed more (guides, lynxes, apes, loams) you can totally make giest work. If i were you, Id rock some rancor in that to push it over the edge.
I do have a section about budge concerns where I cover tarmo
Have you tested Rancor? It seem from what i been hearing, it really shines in builds lik this
(Wow, this turned out to be A LOT longer than I expected, I apologize in advance)
I just got back into magic after a few years and I've been tinkering with a Zoo deck for a while now.
First of all, I'm trying to go cheap (as in money) but effective, so I'm not playing Tarmogoyf and I've tried to minimize the land costs a bit.
3 Marsh flats
4 Terramorphic expanse
1 Horizon canopy
1 Sacred foundry
1 Temple garden
1 Slayers' stronghold
3 Forest
3 Plain
2 Mountain
4 Knight of the reliquary
3 Kird Ape
3 Loam Lion
3 Steppe lynx
3 Thalia, guardian of thraben
3 Vexing devil
2 Qasali pridemage
4 Lightning helix
4 Path to exile
2 Proclamation of rebirth
Terramorphic expanse is of course slower than true fectchlands, but it's a lot cheaper (again, in money terms), let's you grab any basic land and it doesn't cost life, so all in all, not such a bad trade since my main focus is to pump up the KotR and Lynx. I sometimes wish I had a Stomping ground in there and I know I should have Windswept Heath instead of Marsh flats, but the price difference is just too much, and I wouldn't know what to ditch for the Stomping ground considering I have to have enough basic lands for the Terramorphic expanse.
I've extensively tested the land base though and I found it works most of the time as it is, but of course comments are more than welcomed.
I haven't tested the Proclamation of rebirth as much as it needs to be, but it's pretty cheap (in mana) and a great way to recover from a board wipe considering I'm running 12 1cmc creatures.
Everything works with BBE's cascade so that's nice, since that means you're set with 5 mana (BBE + 1 for Thalia), and since no card requires more than one mana of any one color it's easy to set up a working land situation.
I've done some testing with Rancor, and I'm definitely going to include 2. It can turn you're 1cmc dudes into intense threats. A 6/5 Lynx or a 4/3 Ape with trample in turn 2 is going to hurt anyone. I'm unsure of what I'll remove, except maybe one vexing devil.
I've also tried using a few Goblin Guide in there, but I feel like the extra speed it gives the opponent really hurts this version of the deck so I tossed it out. Same with the lavamancer, although I may reconsider there.
I also tested the Ranger of Eos but found it too expensive for my taste, at 4cmc I want something a little more powerful, considering the KotR is 3cmc and the BBE is 4cmc but basically gives you a free card (for one more if you have thalia down). Maybe if I were running the GG it would work better, but I don't see the use in tutoring a ape/lion/lynx/vexing in turn 4, considering they would hit at turn 6.
All in all I think it's a pretty effective build that stays true to the Zoo archetype, but still needs some work to be great. Sometimes I feel like there need's to be more removal there specially against Tron, reanimator and Vengevine based decks, but I guess that's what sideboards are for. I also don't love the pridemage, but haven't found anything great to replace it with, and mainbording artifact/enchantment hate can really help win g1 in some matchups.
I'd love any comments and suggestions about this, specially since it's my first real deck build in 4+ years and I may have overlooked some great cards.
You're right regarding the BBE targets but I don't consider it that much of a downside.
I usually don't play it if i have Thalia down unless I'm really desperate, and getting a Ape in turn 4 is not great but in the end it's just speeding things up since I would have topdecked it in a few turns (and if I'm playing the BBE I don't usually need more lands) and the BBE's body is useful in itself.
I had just 2 BBE because of that and I'll probably go back to that once m13 hits, so I can get a rancor in there.
I now realize I said getting a ape/lion/lynx/vexing in turn 4 was no good when talking about the ranger and now I'm saying it's acceptable with the BBE, but the difference is that BBE hit's the turn it gets in, you don't have to pay for what you cascade into and sometimes you cascade into great things, like a KotR or a Lightning Helix, plus it puts lands on the bottom of the library, clearing the way for more useful stuff, while the Ranger only lands me two small dudes I have to pay for the next turn.
I'm really curious what everyone's response to blood moon is, since I've found it pretty hard to play against, unless I have the right basic lands and a pridemage, of course.
I have been blind-sighted in G1 before but when I know I am playing against it just grab the basic lands right away.
I would -1 mountain and add another basic. Make sure you get your green and white mana correct as a slayer stronghold can be used as a mountain against the moon.
I have to agree that it SUCKS to not be able to play anything.
I was just curious if there's something I'm missing about it since it it get's pretty bad if I don't have a Plains and a Forest before it hits. G2 is obviously a lot simpler.
Thalia is fine, she does pose a bit of a unsynergistic problem with blood braid, but actually not too much. I have 2 thalia MD in my big zoo with BBE and a 3rd in the side because she is that good. I dont like proc or ranger of eos too much in Zoo. Reason why is because I would rather be hurting them right then and there. If I wanted to recover from a wipe (which are uncommon in modern to begin with) I'd rather sword of light and shadow, or Blood braid elf.
Personally, I think you got to look at what proc and eos does in soul sisters. The impact is right away. Dudes get bigger, life is gained, ect. for us, we replay beaters. Usually when my board is wiped, I drop knight I was saving for the wipe and kill them.
I feel the Line is Bloodbraid Elf, Rancor cant connect to anything unless theres a creature in play off a cascade right?
You can just choose not to cast it. This would be the appropriate play. Running BBE and Rancor together is still a bad idea, though.
CG
This is want i Playing Right now
Dudes=21
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Thalia
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Snapcaster
3x Knight of the R
3x Geist of Saint T
3x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Huntmaster Of the Fells
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
Planeswalkers=2
2x Ajani 3.0
Spells=13
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path of Exile
4x Lightning Helix
2x Bant Charm
Lands=22
4x Arid Mesa
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Cavern Of Souls
1x Slayers' Stronghold
1x Kessig Wolfrun
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarters
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Grounds
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Temple Garden
1x Breeding Pool
I got 2 Slots left iono what i wanna Fill it in with. Any Suggestions
My play group wanna try it as another 2 BoPs, Any idea on a instant that can break or make a turn? Maybe a Phyrexian spell? or should it be a Naya Charm for alpha swings?
Thalia zoo has exploded forward this week. Check the dailies in the OP. 3 wins in under 1 week.
I actually needed to update that to this list, as it just 4-0d online 3 times in one week...
60 cards
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
21 lands
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
24 creatures
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Pillar of Flame
15 other spells
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ranger of Eos
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Torpor Orb
Tarmos hard to replace. But if you focus on speed more (guides, lynxes, apes, loams) you can totally make giest work. If i were you, Id rock some rancor in that to push it over the edge.
I do have a section about budge concerns where I cover tarmo
ill Roll with Big Blue Zoo til i can Borrow/own them