On top of all the land hate we also have counters to stop problematic permanents. Game 2 is harder when they bring in Natures claim (if they see seas game 1) but I still think we have the advantage
There are definitely some aspects of the deck I like (Spreading Seas seems fairly good in the current format, especially with Jund stretching its manabase to play Lingering Souls, and Jace/Gideon is a tricky wall to break through), but on the other hand playing no maindeck countermagic just has to be wrong. I understand the deck is playing more of a tap-out game, but something along the lines of a Mana Leak, Remand, Negate or Cryptic Command seems warranted. Alternatively, we could go full-on Superfriends and play Ajani Vengeant for more land denial (like the Standard deck of old), but that's probably too greedy.
I'm excited to start playing around with the list a little and figure out how to potentially improve it.
Just for the record I'm running my list with 4 mana leak and 2 Spell Snare. I like the splash of counters a lot more than the traditional tapout list. As long as we contain the opponent for 4-5 turns our walkers start generating so much card advantage its hard for the opponent to keep up.
And after testing online for a few days I can safely say Gideon is a house. Against Infect its pretty much gg when he hits
Just for the record I'm running my list with 4 mana leak and 2 Spell Snare. I like the splash of counters a lot more than the traditional tapout list. As long as we contain the opponent for 4-5 turns our walkers start generating so much card advantage its hard for the opponent to keep up.
And after testing online for a few days I can safely say Gideon is a house. Against Infect its pretty much gg when he hits
Would you care to post your list? I notice you run red.
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"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
Bronson, I really like the use of pyroclasm. Have you thought about a 2 x celestial colonnade for a late game finisher?
I'd like to get a set to play online but I just havent yet. I do think it would help seal the deal a lot of the time. I'll get a set in the next few days and I'll see how they fair.
I think it did well in part because it was unknown. Every once in awhile people get in the habit of snap-assuming that any deck with blue has counters, and playing around them. Then a deck like this can swoop in and do well.
But then everyone copying the deck afterwards has less of the luxury of not playing the counters. If you drop a wall of omens and then a jace, chances are your opponent is no longer playing around non-existent counterspells.
We'll all have to slowly start including counters to put the respect back into people, and then the deck will become diluted and very possibly just bad.
All due credit to Collin for pulling it out at the right time, but I don't think its going to have lasting consistent results.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I played against a version of this last night and was very impressed by the resilience and strength of the deck. I don't think this deck is a temporary thing, I think its a real archetype with lots of promise that can evolve with the modern meta game.
I love playing the deck (especially against most creature decks) but I agree its probably not a permanent thing. While most creature decks generally get steam rolled by this deck we pretty much scoop to combo. I think in a local meta you could cause some havoc but at a GP or other major event I'd want something that has some better matchups.
I dont think i completely agree. While its combo Mu certainly isnt the best, i think it can be fixes a bit to adapt to it better. Just playing a few hard counterspells main could make all the difference in the world, not just a playset of mana leak, but more spell snare and cryptic command too.
And there is always the Sb to deal with combo, if all else fails.
I dont think i completely agree. While its combo Mu certainly isnt the best, i think it can be fixes a bit to adapt to it better. Just playing a few hard counterspells main could make all the difference in the world, not just a playset of mana leak, but more spell snare and cryptic command too.
i don't think you're going to beat many combo decks with 4 mana counter spells
even with more counter spells this deck has no clock
The countermagic suggestion was a good one Bronson, it definitely worked out well for me on the day. I wasn't feeling quite greedy enough to play Ajani Vengeant though.
122 player tournament, 7 rounds (fairly small PTQ for the Great Lakes region)
R1: 2-1 5c Zoo (we went to time, but it was one of my friends from Toledo and he conceded because I was way ahead on board)
R2: 2-0 Twin (triple Tectonic Edge kept him off double red game 1 and Jace stopped him from winning with Deceiver Exarch game 2)
R3: 2-0 Wafo-Tapa Teachings (Lingering Souls is good against them since they only have so many Electrolyzes to keep parity)
R4: 2-0 Affinity (he put me to 10 with a turn 2 Plating on the play in game 2, but I had my one-of Disenchant to not get turn 3'd and he basically ran out of gas)
R5: 2-1 Mythic Conscription (yes, it's a thing) (had to hit Eldrazi Conscription in his top 4 cards game 3 to kill me since he was dead on board, thankfully missed)
R6: 2-1 R/G Tron (Spreading Seas and Tectonic Edge are really good)
R7: ID
QF: 1-2 R/G Tron (same opponent as round 6, mulled to 6 and didn't hit a second blue source game 3, stranding VClique and multiple Jaces)
Overall, the deck performed very well on the day and I would definitely play it again.
MVPs were Spreading Seas, Tectonic Edge, Lingering Souls and Jace AoT (Jace is much better than I gave him credit for, although it may be a result of my limited sample size). Elspeth was probably the most underperforming card, but I don't know if I can really cut her or what I would put in her place.
I want to play Super Friends, with counterspells. I also want to play a split of Ajani/Elspeth/Tamiyo, since they all do the same thing (lock down 1 guy) but can be on the board at the same time.
I like Oust over Path because I'm on the Spreading Seas/Tectonic Edge/lands don't untap plan. It can also cause your opponents to have bad draws or stunt their mana development (Oust a t1 Deathrite, then they are drawing a Deathrite on t3 instead of something useful).
Spreading Seas on my own Celestial Collonade, just to get sure that there are enough Basics for my Sphere
This doesn't work FYI. Spreading Seas doesn't change the supertype, so it'll still be a Nonbasic Land - Island, and then when Blood Moon comes into play it'll be a Nonbasic Land - Mountain. See thread here.
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
I'm excited to start playing around with the list a little and figure out how to potentially improve it.
And after testing online for a few days I can safely say Gideon is a house. Against Infect its pretty much gg when he hits
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
Would you care to post your list? I notice you run red.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
3 Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 Jace Architect of thought
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Batterskull
3 Wall of Omens
4 Lingering Souls
4 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
2 Oust
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
4 Spreading Seas
1 Talisman of Dominance
2 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforst
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Batterskull
1 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Path to Exile
2 Spellskite
2 Torpor Orb
2 Rule of Law
1 Celestial Purge
1 Detention Sphere
I'm posting from my phone so I'll update the ? Cards when I get on MTGO again
EDIT: Updated the complete list
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
I'd like to get a set to play online but I just havent yet. I do think it would help seal the deal a lot of the time. I'll get a set in the next few days and I'll see how they fair.
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
But then everyone copying the deck afterwards has less of the luxury of not playing the counters. If you drop a wall of omens and then a jace, chances are your opponent is no longer playing around non-existent counterspells.
We'll all have to slowly start including counters to put the respect back into people, and then the deck will become diluted and very possibly just bad.
All due credit to Collin for pulling it out at the right time, but I don't think its going to have lasting consistent results.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
And there is always the Sb to deal with combo, if all else fails.
i don't think you're going to beat many combo decks with 4 mana counter spells
even with more counter spells this deck has no clock
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
Maybe merge?
3 Wall of Omens
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Gideon Jura
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Batterskull
2 Detention Sphere
4 Lingering Souls
3 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
4 Spreading Seas
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
4 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
3 Seachrome Coast
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Watery Grave
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Rule of Law
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
2 Vendilion Clique
The countermagic suggestion was a good one Bronson, it definitely worked out well for me on the day. I wasn't feeling quite greedy enough to play Ajani Vengeant though.
122 player tournament, 7 rounds (fairly small PTQ for the Great Lakes region)
R1: 2-1 5c Zoo (we went to time, but it was one of my friends from Toledo and he conceded because I was way ahead on board)
R2: 2-0 Twin (triple Tectonic Edge kept him off double red game 1 and Jace stopped him from winning with Deceiver Exarch game 2)
R3: 2-0 Wafo-Tapa Teachings (Lingering Souls is good against them since they only have so many Electrolyzes to keep parity)
R4: 2-0 Affinity (he put me to 10 with a turn 2 Plating on the play in game 2, but I had my one-of Disenchant to not get turn 3'd and he basically ran out of gas)
R5: 2-1 Mythic Conscription (yes, it's a thing) (had to hit Eldrazi Conscription in his top 4 cards game 3 to kill me since he was dead on board, thankfully missed)
R6: 2-1 R/G Tron (Spreading Seas and Tectonic Edge are really good)
R7: ID
QF: 1-2 R/G Tron (same opponent as round 6, mulled to 6 and didn't hit a second blue source game 3, stranding VClique and multiple Jaces)
Overall, the deck performed very well on the day and I would definitely play it again.
MVPs were Spreading Seas, Tectonic Edge, Lingering Souls and Jace AoT (Jace is much better than I gave him credit for, although it may be a result of my limited sample size). Elspeth was probably the most underperforming card, but I don't know if I can really cut her or what I would put in her place.
I like Oust over Path because I'm on the Spreading Seas/Tectonic Edge/lands don't untap plan. It can also cause your opponents to have bad draws or stunt their mana development (Oust a t1 Deathrite, then they are drawing a Deathrite on t3 instead of something useful).
3 Wall of Omens
1 Batterskull
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Izzet Signet
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Gideon Jura
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Cryptic Command
4 Mana Leak
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Plains
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Island
1 Steam Vents
Now my problem is I'm wondering if I can cram Lingering Souls in here. Is it needed? What do I cut?
edit:
This doesn't work FYI. Spreading Seas doesn't change the supertype, so it'll still be a Nonbasic Land - Island, and then when Blood Moon comes into play it'll be a Nonbasic Land - Mountain. See thread here.
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