It seems like a followed the general recipe. Couple notes of feedback-
1. You don't have a sideboard? For modern you really need a sideboard even if its budget and basic.
2. Kiora and cobra wouldn't be my first pick for ramp. I think a signets could probably replace them or even a Viridian Emissary. I like paradise druid I was thinking of testing her out as a caryatid that could attack. Be sure to keep an eye out on she performs and let us know.
3. Your discard suite seems a little over the place. The ideal discard is t1 and ramp on t2. You have discard at the 1 2 and 3 turns. I would recomend dropping castigate and sin collector. Raven's crime could take over for one and if you have life from the loam you have that combo to work with if not its still a decent discard that can help you bin your own cards.
1. I have a general Sideboard idea in mind (more or less the same one in your list), but im focusing on getting a maindeck hammered out/acquired.
2. Kiora and Cobra were last second include to get up to 8 ramps spells; I do like the Emissary though.
3. I do have a Raven's Crime and Loam, they were a part of the general sideboard plan, but I can certainly move them mainboard.
I think they would fit better in the main with your list. casting loam on t2 isn't ramp exactly but it does help to make sure you hit your land drops which is the next best thing. Crime is definitely better than collector. If you have a GQ that should make it to the main to. GQ is nice as you can do it t2 on the draw against tron to keep them off tron or hit the basic that utopia sprawl is on.
I was thinking more about your suggestion of Viridian Emissary over Lotus Cobra and Kiora's Follower. This may very well be my inexperience with the deck, but I'm leaning more towards the latter than the former for the following reason:
Cobra and Follower entice your opponent to remove the creature to keep you from untapping with more mana; spending their removal on it rather than on our win condition. Emissary entices your opponent to actively leave it alone; they will hold their removal to not ramp you.
Generally that is right read on the cards. But the match-ups where ramp matters the most they can't take the turn off attacking so it will likely die blocking or being bolted so they can attack. With that said I think the general tiers of ramp for our deck is something like:
Untappers like Kiora and possible ramp like Cobra and Vridian
1-3 are basically guaranteed ramp (bop generally dies on sight though) 4. is possible ramp but not as guaranteed. Steve is only slightly above the signet/farseek as he can block or attack.
There are a few things that come to my mind when browsing through your list from a few posts ago.
Your discard suite is all over the place, you want T1 discard almost all the time, hence maximize on Inquisition and Thoughtseize, the usual split is 3/2 with Raven's Crime and 4/2 without Raven's Crime. Brutality doubles as a discard spell but is in a different mana slot, that's the 7th piece alltogether. Note that it doesn't hit enchantments, artifacts, planeswalkers or creatures. Thought Erasure and Castigate sound nice on paper, but are too slow and hence low-impact for Modern.
For removal more or less the same applies, personally I like a couple of Fatal Push in the main as it is one of the most efficient answers we have. The go-to number for me always was 2, but feel free to toy around a little. Removal turn 1 can also free up turn 2 ramp in certain matchups. Similar to discard, I tend to play 8 spot removal pieces without counting LotV for either as she serves multiple roles. On top of this, Damnation and Engineered Explosives also act as removal.
Your utility only contains one Liliana? I have always considered her as one of the central pieces of the deck, I would not go below 3 if you are on the disruptive game plan with a heavy lean on discard. She makes assembling profitable Gifts piles much easier as well, you can just discard unwanted cards for later use and get the full 4 cards value in your pile. Do you need the 2 Spellbombs for your local meta?
While 3 utility lands are fine, I'd go up to 2 manlands, Creeping Tar Pit being the best option, otherwise Celestial Colonnade or Shambling Vent. You want black, green/blue mana in the early stages of the game and mainly in this sequence. White is a tertiary concern and mostly needed for the reanimation package or Path, which you don't want to cast too early anyway.
The ramp package is unfocused: While 6 pieces are in principle fine (if a little much for my personal taste), I would go with a playset of Caryatids as they almost always survive a turn. I used to play Birds in 2016/17, but they tend to die on sight even more often in the age of Izzet/Mono R Phoenix. An alternative could be Steve or most recently Paradise Druid, which guarantees at least ramp for the next turn. Lotus Cobra doesn't give you anything when it comes into play (unless in e.g. Saheeli Evolution decks off of a T1 Bird) and is easily removed, making it a tempo loss and hence terrible T2 play.
The mana base is a little off, you play 8 basics and only 6 fetchlands, the usual ratio is 4-5 basics and 9-10 fetchlands to ensure the hungry mana requirements are met properly, especially black on T1 is important. I would roughly follow this guideline, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth can further supply you with black mana, especially relevant with the double-B costs of Liliana and the Loam/Crime package, allowing you to retrace Crime the maximal amount of times.
@trixster87: Regarding the use of Hall of Heliod's Generosity I tried to employ the Solemnity/Unlife lock with the help of a Loam package, but it tends to be too slow and/or too fragile. The shell was modified to be mostly WGub enchantress with a reanimation package. Idyllic Tutor just does a better job in this kind of build, it gets everything directly and a turn earlier. Against aggro it was fine, mostly due to Ghostly Prison and Sphere of Safety, the lack of proper disruption is the biggest issue though, Death's Shadow in all varieties eats the deck alive.
Hello everyone. After a long break from the Deck i am back to brewing with 4 Color Gifts. I enjoy the Rock Style Version of the Deck that splashes blue for Gifts and Snaps. Here is my list:
My thoughts:
- First: I am not sure about the Manabase and the Side Board
- I think Sylvan Caryatid is the best Ramp Creature. Not only because of Phoenix but also because of Wrenn and Six.
- I don't think that Iona is a maindeckable card anymore, so i put it into the Side Board.
- The third Fatal Push could also be the second Path, but i like to have a Turn one black spell (either Push ord Discard)
- Lingering Souls and Liliana of the Veil are Center Pieces of the Deck so i want at least 3 of both. Lingering Souls is also a nice completion to nearly every Gifts Pile
- I like Thragtusk and Baneslayer Angel as hardcastable threads that can stop agressive strategies and in the case of Thragtusk also generate value
- 2 Abrupt Decays are an idea to fight Teferi, Time Raveler and Wrenn and Six and some Side Board Hate
- 4 Nihil Spellbombs instead of Leyline because we don't clock our opponent and need to draw stuff
- I am still a fan of the Loam / Crime Package against UW Control.
Hello everyone. After a long break from the Deck i am back to brewing with 4 Color Gifts. I enjoy the Rock Style Version of the Deck that splashes blue for Gifts and Snaps. Here is my list:
My thoughts:
- First: I am not sure about the Manabase and the Side Board
- I think Sylvan Caryatid is the best Ramp Creature. Not only because of Phoenix but also because of Wrenn and Six.
- I don't think that Iona is a maindeckable card anymore, so i put it into the Side Board.
- The third Fatal Push could also be the second Path, but i like to have a Turn one black spell (either Push ord Discard)
- Lingering Souls and Liliana of the Veil are Center Pieces of the Deck so i want at least 3 of both. Lingering Souls is also a nice completion to nearly every Gifts Pile
- I like Thragtusk and Baneslayer Angel as hardcastable threads that can stop agressive strategies and in the case of Thragtusk also generate value
- 2 Abrupt Decays are an idea to fight Teferi, Time Raveler and Wrenn and Six and some Side Board Hate
- 4 Nihil Spellbombs instead of Leyline because we don't clock our opponent and need to draw stuff
- I am still a fan of the Loam / Crime Package against UW Control.
First things first, the list looks pretty solid at first glance, more or less the traditional build from 2015 or so. I went up another Liliana back then, as I always wanted to land one on turn 3 (or turn 2 with Birds back then), but that's up to you. Regarding the mana base I think you are fine, according to Frank Karsten's article (essentially) based on the hypergeometric distribution function. Disregarding Ghost Quarter tricks with your own lands, you run 17 B sources, 15 G sources, 12 U sources and 13 W sources in your deck, with an additional +2 to all of them due to your mana dorks. This is sufficient for BB on turn 3, you could even think of adding another utility land (e.g. Academy Ruins and an artifact package with Engineered Explosives). Apart from this I'd advise you to consider Creeping Tar Pit as the manland of choice, unblockable is a big keyword to have while deathtouch rarely matters too much I've found, you usually don't want to trade your lands.
Other than that I mostly agree, I would severely miss Loam/Crime in the main currently. The creature package is a matter of taste, you could consider Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, he does a great job in stabilising the board and is insane in combination with removal (keep the 3rd Push in this case obviously).
As far as the sideboard goes, I strongly prefer Surgical Extraction and Extirpate over Spellbomb. It can be easily combined in a Gifts pile and flashed back with Snapcaster Mage if need be, a split of 3/1 or 2/1 is usually feasible (maybe even 2/1/1 with Spellbomb), depending on your meta. Thrun is best combined with Worship postboard as kind of a 'gotcha' against decks without answers to enchantments. Instead of Collector Ouphe I'd consider Stony Silence, it is harder to remove and further blanks the opponent's removal spells. Is Terastodon worth the slot for the Tron matchup? I try to not dedicate too much space towards it.
There are a few things that come to my mind when browsing through your list from a few posts ago.
Your discard suite is all over the place, you want T1 discard almost all the time, hence maximize on Inquisition and Thoughtseize, the usual split is 3/2 with Raven's Crime and 4/2 without Raven's Crime. Brutality doubles as a discard spell but is in a different mana slot, that's the 7th piece alltogether. Note that it doesn't hit enchantments, artifacts, planeswalkers or creatures. Thought Erasure and Castigate sound nice on paper, but are too slow and hence low-impact for Modern.
For removal more or less the same applies, personally I like a couple of Fatal Push in the main as it is one of the most efficient answers we have. The go-to number for me always was 2, but feel free to toy around a little. Removal turn 1 can also free up turn 2 ramp in certain matchups. Similar to discard, I tend to play 8 spot removal pieces without counting LotV for either as she serves multiple roles. On top of this, Damnation and Engineered Explosives also act as removal.
Your utility only contains one Liliana? I have always considered her as one of the central pieces of the deck, I would not go below 3 if you are on the disruptive game plan with a heavy lean on discard. She makes assembling profitable Gifts piles much easier as well, you can just discard unwanted cards for later use and get the full 4 cards value in your pile. Do you need the 2 Spellbombs for your local meta?
While 3 utility lands are fine, I'd go up to 2 manlands, Creeping Tar Pit being the best option, otherwise Celestial Colonnade or Shambling Vent. You want black, green/blue mana in the early stages of the game and mainly in this sequence. White is a tertiary concern and mostly needed for the reanimation package or Path, which you don't want to cast too early anyway.
The ramp package is unfocused: While 6 pieces are in principle fine (if a little much for my personal taste), I would go with a playset of Caryatids as they almost always survive a turn. I used to play Birds in 2016/17, but they tend to die on sight even more often in the age of Izzet/Mono R Phoenix. An alternative could be Steve or most recently Paradise Druid, which guarantees at least ramp for the next turn. Lotus Cobra doesn't give you anything when it comes into play (unless in e.g. Saheeli Evolution decks off of a T1 Bird) and is easily removed, making it a tempo loss and hence terrible T2 play.
The mana base is a little off, you play 8 basics and only 6 fetchlands, the usual ratio is 4-5 basics and 9-10 fetchlands to ensure the hungry mana requirements are met properly, especially black on T1 is important. I would roughly follow this guideline, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth can further supply you with black mana, especially relevant with the double-B costs of Liliana and the Loam/Crime package, allowing you to retrace Crime the maximal amount of times.
I believe you missed the part that the reason I built the deck the way I did was because I wanted it to be as singleton as possible to coincide with my Highlander collection, so I took Trixster's list and went from there. Because of that, I have to try some weird things, but it has actually been a lot of fun. The singleton Thought Erasure was actually super useful in that regard.
The manabase looks good for the most part. Though I'm not a fan of fastlands. They're a tap land more often than not. Quagmire is also a weird choice, but work with what you got.
Caryatid is my fav. Ramp in our current meta.
In our current meta of recursive creatures I value exile removal more so I think leaning towards path is important.
I spent a fair amount of time thinking through our grave hate options and came to the same conclusion that Nihil is the best.
I do see one omission that is worrying- You don't include the wrath package in any form (wrath, judgement, verdict/damnation etc)in your 75. I find about half the time my first gifts is not for the unburial but instead the wrath package to reset the board.
Since your maindecking the loam/crime I would suggest a bojuka bog over one of the blooming marshes as you can get loam/crime/bog/gq and that lets you lock out the grave in addition to stripping the hand and their lands.
@NerdSoda-
Did you play FNM with your list? If so what cards stood out and which flopped? Are there any changes you want feedback on?
- Bojuka Bog: I think you are right and i will try it.
- Blooming Marsh: I can understand the worry, especcialy regarding the fact, that we do play a high curve, so i will try to cut the 2 Blooming Marsh for Bojuka Bog and probably the 9th Fetchland.
- Kalitas: I do not like to build up synergies on the board, if you know what i am trying to say. I like Baneslayer Angel and Thragtusk because they are great on their own, gain life and fight aggro beat down.
- Surgical Extraction / Extirpate: I think they are worse against Hogaak / Dredge then Nihil Spellbomb. Spellbomb can stop delving. Also, Dredge and Hogaak both have to many different Threats that on or two surgical effects are not enough, i fear.
- Creeping Tar Pit: The idea behind Hissing Quagmire was to have a recursive Removal with Life from the Loam, but i can see it beeing to slow and sometimes you also want a better clock. So i will probably add Creeping Tar Pit or Celestial Colonnade.
- Path to Exile over Fatal Push: I like Fatal Push more since the deck plays lot more black then white spells and mana sources.
- Stony Silence and Terastodon: I can see your points and will adapt these.
- The Wraths: This is the point I am not sure about. Since we already play 4 Gifts and some number of higher converted mana cost spells, i don't like the idea of also having 3 Wrath effects in the Main Board. Also: The sweeper of choice is usually Elesh Norn and you also have a lot of Spot Removal and Discard. Wraths can somtimes also be a nonbo with our creatures, especially Sylvan Caryatid. If i find the space, i will maybe try one or more Wraths in teh Side Board.
I haven't yet. So far I have only proxied it up and played a few test games against a buddy of mine. When I have some actual games under my belt with it, I will report back.
FYI for everyone. I'm working with the site admins to get our Primer Updated. I spent most of the last week porting the code from my Nexus version. It's not an Item for Item port but it's pretty nice.
Feel free to let me know of anything missing or feature requests/ category additions or description/explanation changes.
If you want to add your input on a card please be sure to state what category you want and a short blurb about the card. and if there is a *Tip* be sure to note it.
1. You don't have a sideboard? For modern you really need a sideboard even if its budget and basic.
2. Kiora and cobra wouldn't be my first pick for ramp. I think a signets could probably replace them or even a Viridian Emissary. I like paradise druid I was thinking of testing her out as a caryatid that could attack. Be sure to keep an eye out on she performs and let us know.
3. Your discard suite seems a little over the place. The ideal discard is t1 and ramp on t2. You have discard at the 1 2 and 3 turns. I would recomend dropping castigate and sin collector. Raven's crime could take over for one and if you have life from the loam you have that combo to work with if not its still a decent discard that can help you bin your own cards.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
2. Kiora and Cobra were last second include to get up to 8 ramps spells; I do like the Emissary though.
3. I do have a Raven's Crime and Loam, they were a part of the general sideboard plan, but I can certainly move them mainboard.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Cobra and Follower entice your opponent to remove the creature to keep you from untapping with more mana; spending their removal on it rather than on our win condition. Emissary entices your opponent to actively leave it alone; they will hold their removal to not ramp you.
Is this incorrect?
1-3 are basically guaranteed ramp (bop generally dies on sight though) 4. is possible ramp but not as guaranteed. Steve is only slightly above the signet/farseek as he can block or attack.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
@trixster87: Regarding the use of Hall of Heliod's Generosity I tried to employ the Solemnity/Unlife lock with the help of a Loam package, but it tends to be too slow and/or too fragile. The shell was modified to be mostly WGub enchantress with a reanimation package. Idyllic Tutor just does a better job in this kind of build, it gets everything directly and a turn earlier. Against aggro it was fine, mostly due to Ghostly Prison and Sphere of Safety, the lack of proper disruption is the biggest issue though, Death's Shadow in all varieties eats the deck alive.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Discard:
1 Raven's Crime
1 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Collective Brutality
Spot Removal:
1 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Assassin's Trophy
Value:
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Shambling Vent
1 Hissing Quagmire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collector Ouphe
2 Damping Sphere
1 Plague Engineer
1 Celestial Purge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
My thoughts:
- First: I am not sure about the Manabase and the Side Board
- I think Sylvan Caryatid is the best Ramp Creature. Not only because of Phoenix but also because of Wrenn and Six.
- I don't think that Iona is a maindeckable card anymore, so i put it into the Side Board.
- The third Fatal Push could also be the second Path, but i like to have a Turn one black spell (either Push ord Discard)
- Lingering Souls and Liliana of the Veil are Center Pieces of the Deck so i want at least 3 of both. Lingering Souls is also a nice completion to nearly every Gifts Pile
- I like Thragtusk and Baneslayer Angel as hardcastable threads that can stop agressive strategies and in the case of Thragtusk also generate value
- 2 Abrupt Decays are an idea to fight Teferi, Time Raveler and Wrenn and Six and some Side Board Hate
- 4 Nihil Spellbombs instead of Leyline because we don't clock our opponent and need to draw stuff
- I am still a fan of the Loam / Crime Package against UW Control.
I am ready for your thoughts.
First things first, the list looks pretty solid at first glance, more or less the traditional build from 2015 or so. I went up another Liliana back then, as I always wanted to land one on turn 3 (or turn 2 with Birds back then), but that's up to you. Regarding the mana base I think you are fine, according to Frank Karsten's article (essentially) based on the hypergeometric distribution function. Disregarding Ghost Quarter tricks with your own lands, you run 17 B sources, 15 G sources, 12 U sources and 13 W sources in your deck, with an additional +2 to all of them due to your mana dorks. This is sufficient for BB on turn 3, you could even think of adding another utility land (e.g. Academy Ruins and an artifact package with Engineered Explosives). Apart from this I'd advise you to consider Creeping Tar Pit as the manland of choice, unblockable is a big keyword to have while deathtouch rarely matters too much I've found, you usually don't want to trade your lands.
Other than that I mostly agree, I would severely miss Loam/Crime in the main currently. The creature package is a matter of taste, you could consider Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, he does a great job in stabilising the board and is insane in combination with removal (keep the 3rd Push in this case obviously).
As far as the sideboard goes, I strongly prefer Surgical Extraction and Extirpate over Spellbomb. It can be easily combined in a Gifts pile and flashed back with Snapcaster Mage if need be, a split of 3/1 or 2/1 is usually feasible (maybe even 2/1/1 with Spellbomb), depending on your meta. Thrun is best combined with Worship postboard as kind of a 'gotcha' against decks without answers to enchantments. Instead of Collector Ouphe I'd consider Stony Silence, it is harder to remove and further blanks the opponent's removal spells. Is Terastodon worth the slot for the Tron matchup? I try to not dedicate too much space towards it.
I believe you missed the part that the reason I built the deck the way I did was because I wanted it to be as singleton as possible to coincide with my Highlander collection, so I took Trixster's list and went from there. Because of that, I have to try some weird things, but it has actually been a lot of fun. The singleton Thought Erasure was actually super useful in that regard.
- The manabase looks good for the most part. Though I'm not a fan of fastlands. They're a tap land more often than not. Quagmire is also a weird choice, but work with what you got.
- Caryatid is my fav. Ramp in our current meta.
- In our current meta of recursive creatures I value exile removal more so I think leaning towards path is important.
- I spent a fair amount of time thinking through our grave hate options and came to the same conclusion that Nihil is the best.
I do see one omission that is worrying- You don't include the wrath package in any form (wrath, judgement, verdict/damnation etc)in your 75. I find about half the time my first gifts is not for the unburial but instead the wrath package to reset the board.Since your maindecking the loam/crime I would suggest a bojuka bog over one of the blooming marshes as you can get loam/crime/bog/gq and that lets you lock out the grave in addition to stripping the hand and their lands.
@NerdSoda-
Did you play FNM with your list? If so what cards stood out and which flopped? Are there any changes you want feedback on?
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
- Bojuka Bog: I think you are right and i will try it.
- Blooming Marsh: I can understand the worry, especcialy regarding the fact, that we do play a high curve, so i will try to cut the 2 Blooming Marsh for Bojuka Bog and probably the 9th Fetchland.
- Kalitas: I do not like to build up synergies on the board, if you know what i am trying to say.
- Surgical Extraction / Extirpate: I think they are worse against Hogaak / Dredge then Nihil Spellbomb. Spellbomb can stop delving. Also, Dredge and Hogaak both have to many different Threats that on or two surgical effects are not enough, i fear.
- Creeping Tar Pit: The idea behind Hissing Quagmire was to have a recursive Removal with Life from the Loam, but i can see it beeing to slow and sometimes you also want a better clock. So i will probably add Creeping Tar Pit or Celestial Colonnade.
- Path to Exile over Fatal Push: I like Fatal Push more since the deck plays lot more black then white spells and mana sources.
- Stony Silence and Terastodon: I can see your points and will adapt these.
- The Wraths: This is the point I am not sure about. Since we already play 4 Gifts and some number of higher converted mana cost spells, i don't like the idea of also having 3 Wrath effects in the Main Board. Also: The sweeper of choice is usually Elesh Norn and you also have a lot of Spot Removal and Discard. Wraths can somtimes also be a nonbo with our creatures, especially Sylvan Caryatid. If i find the space, i will maybe try one or more Wraths in teh Side Board.
Here is the updated version I'm getting copied over:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/812890-primer-update-4c-gifts
Feel free to let me know of anything missing or feature requests/ category additions or description/explanation changes.
If you want to add your input on a card please be sure to state what category you want and a short blurb about the card. and if there is a *Tip* be sure to note it.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
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My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
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