Some of these threads seem like their dying now that Modern season is not around. Maybe MM will change the winds.
Has anyone considered MD Isocron Scepter?? Dispite the fact that it is one of my favorite cards it is also a really really good card.
With DRS it can effectively drop T3 and activate getting value from the start. Artifact hate does make a bad day of it but we do have MD discard and they always go to the SB.
Its CMC is 2 so it will not hurt much when seen by Bob. There is plently of value instants to place on it, and burn on a stick can be crazy. Magma Jet anyone?
And Wizards needs to give us a better 1 CMC draw spell, I really feel like Serium Visions is just a waste.
Also @jwelt, have you considered the Scars dual lands? They are great for T1-3 and dont cause pain, you have Darkslick and Blackcleve available to you. The deck can play on 3 land so even if it hits play tapped its still useful. I feel like most, or all modern plays feel fetch lands are key t1 and thats far from true.
I just had a terrible night with the Zac Hill deck so I figured I would share some of its problems.
Game 1 vs U/W Tron I won 2-0. This variant does very well against these types of decks with everything he did being countered or discarded.
Game 2 vs B/W/R Burn 0-2. This was a rough matchup - because of the the amount of fetches and shocks we need to run the deck. I held bob in my hand game 1 at 6 life. Post SB I still didnt stand a chance.
Game 3 vs R/W/G Zoo aggro variant. very few of the cards we have in this variant kill their creatures outside of lightning bolt and their bloodrush guy is rough. I won one game because he drew 5 lands in a row but he still got me below 10 life. Loxodon Smiter can't be countered.
I dropped after Game 3
All in all this version has problems
-the mana base is too greedy: 20 lands is too few and the amount of life we pay for shocks and fetches makes us uber weak against any aggro/burn
-too much snapcaster without enough mana to take full advantage. Opposing deathrite shamans make this even worse.
-Deathrite shaman is okay (winning one game) but often he was a 1/2 mana dork - rarely had enough mana to ping and stay active against opposing threats.
- cryptic command is good, often had mana issues and couldn't play it when I needed it most.
Only drew bob twcei out of all the games. I am sure this was part of the failure...
Well to be fair you ran into the problem matchups in two of the three games. Looking at the top archetypes only burn and Gruul are serious issues, with the others being fair to positive matchups in my experience.
I've been testing this variant continually and I've made some changes to improve those matchups while maintaining our advantages: Stuff like a terminate maindeck to handle goyf, an extra spell snare sideboard for goyf and the 2cc burn spells, maelstrom pulse maindeck to kill whatever you want, and agony warp sideboard which is basically a lightning helix against aggro. Currently I'm trying 3x liliana in the main as an experiment because I love the card. She dominates games but I've yet to test her against aggro — seems reasonable. Burn cannot afford to let her live more than a turn since they need all their cards, and aggro can't let her edict twice so she's sort of a helix.
Obviously it would be hard to turn those matchups favorable but you win your fair share considering its the deck's absolute nightmare matchup.
To address the concerns you highlighted:
- Yes, the manabase is really greedy and it makes it hard in some games to come back because you're at 6 or something with a bob and can't afford to get more of your own lands! I don't usually have a problem with land amount or color, but you have to take a decent amount of damage to get there. As was just posted above an extra scars dual might help here. I have been experimenting with 2 tar pit since they're a roadblock in the early game and you usually only want one, replacing it with another fetchable red source. I might cut that for a blackcleave cliffs or maybe a sulfur falls. I might add a 21st land, perhaps a basic. What
- This is interesting, after playing the deck for a while I tend not to miss land drops too often. You really rip through the deck. I'm curious to hear if you continue to find this if you decide to play the deck more. One thing about snapcaster in this shell is that I believe he's intended to be a turn 2 play after holding up counter magic a fair amount of the time. I have had some success with this method, especially against tron where he'll get 4-6 damage in.
- I find this too, the deck is very competitive for mana. You will rarely not tap all your land every turn. I have found that eschewing spells for deathrite activations is often correct. I win more with the deck now that I try to adopt a burn philosophy in many situations and just try to count to 20 rather than advancing the board.
- Yes, it's tricky to make sure you can play cryptic t4 which is when it has max blowout potential. In the zac hill list there are only 2 lands which don't make blue, IIRC, so it's typically a matter of just getting to 4 land which I talked about a bit above.
Anyway the deck definitely has problems, it's not tier 1. I'm not sure what it would take to get there. But I do find it much more successful the more I play, and I'm still discovering its quirks as I go.
- I find this too, the deck is very competitive for mana. You will rarely not tap all your land every turn. I have found that eschewing spells for deathrite activations is often correct. I win more with the deck now that I try to adopt a burn philosophy in many situations and just try to count to 20 rather than advancing the board.
To follow this up the funny thing about the deck is that you often feel like you won _by accident_, like they have two 5/6 goyfs which you cryptic into double bolt into tar pit for the win. Or they drop karn and you somehow get exactsies with deathrite plus two bobs plus EOT snapcaster + bolt. I find that if I just try to WIN, somehow, I am more successful than if I try to dominate the game. Let them do what they want, and win anyway.
I had a game (albeit against a rogue deck) where I killed my opponent from 15 by going bolt, snapcaster bolt, chump with snapcaster to stay alive, untap, bolt bolt tar pit. That's the deck's style I think.
To follow this up the funny thing about the deck is that you often feel like you won _by accident_, like they have two 5/6 goyfs which you cryptic into double bolt into tar pit for the win. Or they drop karn and you somehow get exactsies with deathrite plus two bobs plus EOT snapcaster + bolt. I find that if I just try to WIN, somehow, I am more successful than if I try to dominate the game. Let them do what they want, and win anyway.
I had a game (albeit against a rogue deck) where I killed my opponent from 15 by going bolt, snapcaster bolt, chump with snapcaster to stay alive, untap, bolt bolt tar pit. That's the deck's style I think.
Yeah this is definitely a deck where you have to always be looking for how you can get some damage in on the opponent and just take every opportunity to do so (within reason). If you aren't under immediate threat and your opponent isn't playing a deck where you need to be wary of a random combo kill, you should almost always be looking for the lines that get the most damage in. Turn 1 creature is usually better than turn 1 spell, because your goal is to put them on a clock while you keep them off-balance. Burn (with Snapcaster), Deathrites, and Tar Pits give you a lot of ways to force damage through that they can't block, so if you force through some damage early you can often use those cards to take it from there and ignore their defenses.
As far as the manabase goes, I feel like Zac Hill's build cuts it very very fine. Personally, I would run something more like this:
21 lands is a lot more forgiving than 20, and here the extra is a third Tar Pit so it doesn't feel too bad. (I cut a creature and run 16 of them, as my extra land is also a threat to replace it.) Having the option to crack a Scalding Tarn to fetch a basic Mountain is something I've liked, even thought it increases the "bad with Cryptic Command" count to three. 4 Darkslick Shores may be too many, as I know I'm only on 7 fetches in a Deathrite Shaman deck, but you do your most important work in the early game and playing an untapped Darkslick Shores feels really good- it makes each of your main colors and with no drawback. Having the full set of Shores helps you avoid taking too much damage against beatdown while still being able to play your spells.
I would not run Blackcleave Cliffs in a list close to the original, since land slots are really tight and lands that don't make U or interact with fetches don't really appeal to me. However, I would definitely consider them in Grixis variants running 0 or 1 Cryptic Commands, or with early drops like Grim Lavamancer or Goblin Guide, for the same reason that I like Darkslick Shores.
21 lands is a lot more forgiving than 20, and here the extra is a third Tar Pit so it doesn't feel too bad. (I cut a creature and run 16 of them, as my extra land is also a threat to replace it.) Having the option to crack a Scalding Tarn to fetch a basic Mountain is something I've liked, even thought it increases the "bad with Cryptic Command" count to three. 4 Darkslick Shores may be too many, as I know I'm only on 7 fetches in a Deathrite Shaman deck, but you do your most important work in the early game and playing an untapped Darkslick Shores feels really good- it makes each of your main colors and with no drawback. Having the full set of Shores helps you avoid taking too much damage against beatdown while still being able to play your spells.
I would not run Blackcleave Cliffs in a list close to the original, since land slots are really tight and lands that don't make U or interact with fetches don't really appeal to me. However, I would definitely consider them in Grixis variants running 0 or 1 Cryptic Commands, or with early drops like Grim Lavamancer or Goblin Guide, for the same reason that I like Darkslick Shores.
I do agree that darkslick is the MVP of the manabase and I think going to 21 lands is sadly a necessity. Even in the games where you "flood" you tend to use all of your mana every turn – deathrites and tar pits and flashing stuff back. It is necessary to cut a permanent as you have, because our delver % is already low. I wouldn’t go for the mountain but I understand the appeal. It’s only fetchable by Scalding tarn. As for the 7 fetches, how does deathrite perform with only 7? I find having him as a BoP for the first few turns is absolutely crucial.
I’m trying to figure out a way to either get Delver to flip more often, or cut it and add Goyfs. Scavenging Ooze would need a smoother manabase I think. Any ideas?
Some of these threads seem like their dying now that Modern season is not around. Maybe MM will change the winds.
Also @jwelt, have you considered the Scars dual lands? They are great for T1-3 and dont cause pain, you have Darkslick and Blackcleve available to you. The deck can play on 3 land so even if it hits play tapped its still useful. I feel like most, or all modern plays feel fetch lands are key t1 and thats far from true.
I put down this deck for a while because of the popularity of burn at the local shop. Picking it back up next week and planning on revamping from my old list with the vexing devils. I'm going to try young pyromancer in that slot however. Anyone have any experience with him?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Okay so after some testing on cockatrice to get back into the groove of tempo I updated my list. If anyone has any critiques or suggestions - well, that's why I post these things
In my brief testing Pyromancer has done well - With this set up I have three separate powerhouse creatures (bob, pyro, and snappy) + Delver for quick beats. The strategy is to stick one of those 4 with a delver and beat while increasing CA with cantrips and such. An unchecked Bob or Pyro will win the game in most situations I can imagine. I don't use a ton of fetches because of the burn in my meta...
Some Thoughts:
cut one more pyro for a second clique?
Thoughtseize necessary? - maybe replace the two with a 4th IoK and a CCommand? - Tron still lurks unfortunately
Match-ups I will probably see:
Melira Pod
Kiki-Twin
Reanimator
RDW
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Played this last week at my LGS, I was a little lucky and managed to 3-0, but it has perked my interest. First time playing it and looking for tips/suggestions.
I know a few of my card choices like Augur/Nighthawk and the lack of Cryptic are unconventional, this is not due to card availability.
Augur is close to guaranteed value, helps make my draw more spell dense, can protect a confidant from Liliana and does a fair amount of blocking in a deck archetype that is usually all 1-toughness creatures.
Nighthawk helps me bounce back from a health deficit so that my Confidants don't get stuck in my hand. It can also line up well against Lingering Souls or large Tarmogoyfs which can otherwise be problematic.
Cryptic isn't in the list because I want to keep the curve low, the land count low and my spells focused on board control. There should probably be 1 in the board but currently I feel they are too clunky.
I have tried to make the sideboard mostly spells so that they can be targeted by Augur.
I am not trying to have all the answers, I am just trying to disrupt them into a board state where I can win the race.
Key Changes:
Replace Magma Jet with Izzet Charm. Sure the scrying is nice but sometimes you need a counterspell. Or you get flooded and need to draw.
Rise // Fall and Grixis Charm - easier to cast and often just as crippling as cryptic command.
More IoK, less Thoughtseize. The life loss was often difficult and I think it is better post SB.
The Sideboard Choices I made are for reanimator, Melira Pod, Slippery Bogle, and Tron.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Key Changes:
Replace Magma Jet with Izzet Charm. Sure the scrying is nice but sometimes you need a counterspell. Or you get flooded and need to draw.
Rise // Fall and Grixis Charm - easier to cast and often just as crippling as cryptic command.
More IoK, less Thoughtseize. The life loss was often difficult and I think it is better post SB.
The Sideboard Choices I made are for reanimator, Melira Pod, Slippery Bogle, and Tron.
I would personally max out on Young Pyromancer. That card gives you so much value. I would actually cut either a V-Clique or a Snapcaster Mage.
Some other changes I would personally make is:
-1 Grixes Charm: You dont really need the pump ability on it. This isnt really an aggro deck, and the other two modes on it is just okay.
-1 Rise//Fall: Just isnt that fantastic. Not what you want to be doing in a deck like this. Just feels a little derdly.
-1 IoK- Should be thoughtseize.
Now that adds:
+2 Thoughtseize: Just need to diversify your discard suite.
+1 Electrolyze: This card is the nutter butters.
As for the SB:
I dont like grafdiggers cage all that much. If youre worried about reanimator, and Melira Pod, then you should be playing Rakdos Charm. Removing the graveyard is very good at instant speed. Its a spell that flips delver and for pyromanncer and snappy. Also is good against twin, and kiki pod on the mode for each player loses life equal to the number of creatures they have. It is also good againt Affinity which might be a rough matchup. More Lilianas, and I wouldnt play geths verdict. I would play devour flesh instead. Also another good thing about putting the 2 Thoughtseize back in the main is that you open up more slots in the SB. If you find life loss is being a problem for you, you need to look at how youre piloting the deck, it shouldnt be that big of a deal since you playing a pseudo control deck. Im not sure why you want spell snare in the bored. Just some of my opinions though.
Thought I'd just contribute with the idea of cutting delver all together for more of a mid-range tempo/shell. It's just tough to develop a game plan revolving around consistently having the correct mana for Visions/Delver, IOK, and Lightning bolt. It's just a theorycraft I had in 5 minutes but here is the rough draft. After playtesting and figuring out what I want the game-plan to be, I can tweak the creature/planeswalker suite accordingly.
I'm looking for some critiquing of a decklist I've been trying on cockatrice. So far, I've had good results (about 7-2 record) with this list.
Card choices I'm not so sure about:
Spell snare: I'd like to include the card, but it just feels not worth the spot anytime I've had it in hand so far. Spell pierce has been pretty useful at early counters and at good at protecting my threats.
Thirst for Knowledge: Running vials made me want to try this, but it felt clunky to use since I'd usually have a vial in play by the time I cast it. Perilous research has felt like a much better way to ditch unnecessary or late-game vials and has sweet synergy with YP. Doesn't dig as deep though.
Grixis Charm: It's kind of anything this deck wants and 1 less mana than cryptic. Most of the time, I found myself using cryptic as a fog, draw while trying to find a finisher burn spell. Familiar's Ruse has done a good job at filling the hard counter needs.
Familiar's Ruse: I can't really tell if it's worth it over izzet charm or something else. But it works similar to perilous research in that you don't lose a token if YP is on the board (assuming 1 is already out). It also has really good synergy with Snapcaster (little brother to the eternal command soft lock).
Anyways, I'd like to hear people's thoughts and suggestions!
I find it very interesting that the style of this deck is changing from Delver to Young Pyromancer.
Is Young Pyromancer really that excellent of a card? I have not tried him out at all, and quit standard so have not even seen him in play. The card looks nice, but can the 1/1 tokens really be that game changing?
Also, if this is the direction it may form into why not try adding some of the cards with a 'Storm' effect? Cards like Ground Rift or Grape Shot or is that being too cute? I really hope one day Flusterstorm enters the modern card pool.
Now in reference to the versions still playing Delver, does anyone find that the deck might be better off without Bob? That sounds stupid but when his in my hand I always find myself wanting to play something else, or leave mana open instead. Unless I'm doing something wrong, I never really seem to want to play him.
I find it very interesting that the style of this deck is changing from Delver to Young Pyromancer.
Is Young Pyromancer really that excellent of a card? I have not tried him out at all, and quit standard so have not even seen him in play. The card looks nice, but can the 1/1 tokens really be that game changing?
Also, if this is the direction it may form into why not try adding some of the cards with a 'Storm' effect? Cards like Ground Rift or Grape Shot or is that being too cute? I really hope one day Flusterstorm enters the modern card pool.
Now in reference to the versions still playing Delver, does anyone find that the deck might be better off without Bob? That sounds stupid but when his in my hand I always find myself wanting to play something else, or leave mana open instead. Unless I'm doing something wrong, I never really seem to want to play him.
First off yes Young Pyromancer is that good. He completed the "cycle" of insane two drops for the colors. He can be played in a storm type deck but thats not his best shell since that is a combo deck and he doesnt help that game plan. He thrives in tempo decks like these.
Also again Dark Confidant is insane. He is part of the "cycle" i mentioned. If you play him on turn 2, and he lives he will just run away with the game. The sheer amount of card advantage he gives is insane.
Is Young Pyromancer really that excellent of a card? I have not tried him out at all, and quit standard so have not even seen him in play. The card looks nice, but can the 1/1 tokens really be that game changing?
Also, if this is the direction it may form into why not try adding some of the cards with a 'Storm' effect? Cards like Ground Rift or Grape Shot or is that being too cute? I really hope one day Flusterstorm enters the modern card pool.
I don't think it's that excellent. Young Pyromancer is such a high variance card.
There are a lot of situations where you untap with it on turn 3 and you don't make a token as you have reactive cards in your hand like counters(specifically spell snare) or burn. There are times where your opponent has no creatures and they use a removal spell on your YP, do you bolt their face to get a 1/1? Getting a "free" 1/1 isn't that powerful in modern. Why not just play lingering souls or spectral procession? At least those have evasion for the same mana cost.
If you want to make the best YP deck where you have 30+spells, you lower your threat density. So in order to win a game with that style of deck you have to have an active YP for a few turns, or hope your opponent lost 5 life using fetches/shocks and you can try to burn them out. You hope to draw one of your 8-12 threats or hope to burn them out.
Obviously there's the other side where you stall at four lands, and all your spells interact with what the opponent is doing and you make four 1/1s and crush your opponent. But that doesn't happen very often.
Saying this card completes the cycle is short sided. All those creatures are great top decks. YP, not so much.
Storm effects don't work with YP. You have to cast the spell, creating copies does not make 1/1 tokens.
I don't think it's that excellent. Young Pyromancer is such a high variance card.
There are a lot of situations where you untap with it on turn 3 and you don't make a token as you have reactive cards in your hand like counters(specifically spell snare) or burn. There are times where your opponent has no creatures and they use a removal spell on your YP, do you bolt their face to get a 1/1? Getting a "free" 1/1 isn't that powerful in modern. Why not just play lingering souls or spectral procession? At least those have evasion for the same mana cost.
If you want to make the best YP deck where you have 30+spells, you lower your threat density. So in order to win a game with that style of deck you have to have an active YP for a few turns, or hope your opponent lost 5 life using fetches/shocks and you can try to burn them out. You hope to draw one of your 8-12 threats or hope to burn them out.
Obviously there's the other side where you stall at four lands, and all your spells interact with what the opponent is doing and you make four 1/1s and crush your opponent. But that doesn't happen very often.
Saying this card completes the cycle is short sided. All those creatures are great top decks. YP, not so much.
Storm effects don't work with YP. You have to cast the spell, creating copies does make 1/1 tokens.
I completely disagree. Have you seen the articles pros are writing? I can give you the link to one that Drew Levin said the exact same thing I did. The title of his article was "the cycle is complete" but I guess he doesnt really know what he is talking about...
He is just has high variant as Delver, Stoneforge Mystic. He gives so much value. You said it happens often that you dont play anything on the next turn you have him out so you dont get a token right away because you may want to leave counter magic up. Do you realize how good this is? Countering a relevant spell then getting a creature off it is insane. In your other senario okay so the killed your guy with you getting no value out of it. That like saying Tarmogoyf is terrible because removal spells exist. If you cast him and dies he is poop. That is just an invalid argument.
As for Eleztrolyze, a lot of decks are terrible against this card, kiki pod, Melira Pod, Affinity, Soul Sisters, Ect. Just because one card is good against a deck doesnt mean you shouldnt play this deck. Plus this deck plays counter spells so its not even that good. Especially if you go turn 1 delver, flip on turn 2 then a Young Pyromancer. They cant kill both of them.
Also saying all those cards are great top decks is insane. Snapcaster Mage is unreal when youre facing down a deathrite shaman, and Dark Confidant is the nuts against a burn deck, or affinity. Or how about Goyf when your opponent played a Relic of Prog. There are going to be times when all those cards are good and bad top decks. You dismissing it so quickly is the wrong thing to do.
Just remember Drew is talking about Legacy. That format has a lot of free or nearly free enablers for YP.
The jury's still out on YP anyway, but I also don't feel it's nearly as good as the other four 2 drops in this "cycle". Then again, it's just a guess. The next Modern GP should teach us a lot on that.
I don't think it's that excellent. Young Pyromancer is such a high variance card.
There are a lot of situations where you untap with it on turn 3 and you don't make a token as you have reactive cards in your hand like counters(specifically spell snare) or burn. There are times where your opponent has no creatures and they use a removal spell on your YP, do you bolt their face to get a 1/1? Getting a "free" 1/1 isn't that powerful in modern. Why not just play lingering souls or spectral procession? At least those have evasion for the same mana cost.
If you want to make the best YP deck where you have 30+spells, you lower your threat density. So in order to win a game with that style of deck you have to have an active YP for a few turns, or hope your opponent lost 5 life using fetches/shocks and you can try to burn them out. You hope to draw one of your 8-12 threats or hope to burn them out.
Obviously there's the other side where you stall at four lands, and all your spells interact with what the opponent is doing and you make four 1/1s and crush your opponent. But that doesn't happen very often.
Saying this card completes the cycle is short sided. All those creatures are great top decks. YP, not so much.
Thanks for your insight, I think you summarized that very well. That's also why I needed to ask; the card looks like it has great potential but you made an excellent opposing view. I'm will still give it a try, I never seen him in action but in the end I may stick with delver.
Storm effects don't work with YP. You have to cast the spell, creating copies does make 1/1 tokens.
You...? I...?
By golly your right, how foolish of me to miss that. Next time ill be sure to read the 'full' card, and not skip words to the cool stuff.
Also in regard to my Confidant remark, I agree his is amazing overall but maybe its me an I'm choosing when to play him wrong.
Just remember Drew is talking about Legacy. That format has a lot of free or nearly free enablers for YP.
The jury's still out on YP anyway, but I also don't feel it's nearly as good as the other four 2 drops in this "cycle". Then again, it's just a guess. The next Modern GP should teach us a lot on that.
His only "free" enabler is Gitaxian Probe which is legal in moder, and Force of Will which just good all the time. The other things are just like cantrips that since are either banned or not legal modern has to Young Pyro decks will have to sub out for things like targeted discard spells like IoK and Thoughtseize, things that Drew is not playing in the main because he gets those cantrips. Apart from that the entire creature base is Legal in Modern, and 1/3 of the spell base is legal in modern, and 1/2 of the mana base is legal, and thats not counting the dual but we get shocks. The only huge thing is wasteland, and stifle. Then again Modern isnt quite as degenerate as Legacy.
I don't think it's that excellent. Young Pyromancer is such a high variance card.
There are a lot of situations where you untap with it on turn 3 and you don't make a token as you have reactive cards in your hand like counters(specifically spell snare) or burn. There are times where your opponent has no creatures and they use a removal spell on your YP, do you bolt their face to get a 1/1? Getting a "free" 1/1 isn't that powerful in modern. Why not just play lingering souls or spectral procession? At least those have evasion for the same mana cost.
If you want to make the best YP deck where you have 30+spells, you lower your threat density. So in order to win a game with that style of deck you have to have an active YP for a few turns, or hope your opponent lost 5 life using fetches/shocks and you can try to burn them out. You hope to draw one of your 8-12 threats or hope to burn them out.
Obviously there's the other side where you stall at four lands, and all your spells interact with what the opponent is doing and you make four 1/1s and crush your opponent. But that doesn't happen very often.
Saying this card completes the cycle is short sided. All those creatures are great top decks. YP, not so much.
Storm effects don't work with YP. You have to cast the spell, creating copies does make 1/1 tokens.
This. Just because Young Pyromancer is showing up results online doesn't mean it's good, it just means that there are players winning with it, possibly because it's being overplayed. I don't think Modern has enough cards to generate value with Young Pyromancer, most of it just playing subpar cards like Gitaxian Probe and Serum Visions. I would not want to tap out turn 2 to play Young Pyromancer, and I don't think you want to open yourself up to what could happen either.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Has anyone considered MD Isocron Scepter?? Dispite the fact that it is one of my favorite cards it is also a really really good card.
With DRS it can effectively drop T3 and activate getting value from the start. Artifact hate does make a bad day of it but we do have MD discard and they always go to the SB.
Its CMC is 2 so it will not hurt much when seen by Bob. There is plently of value instants to place on it, and burn on a stick can be crazy. Magma Jet anyone?
And Wizards needs to give us a better 1 CMC draw spell, I really feel like Serium Visions is just a waste.
Also @jwelt, have you considered the Scars dual lands? They are great for T1-3 and dont cause pain, you have Darkslick and Blackcleve available to you. The deck can play on 3 land so even if it hits play tapped its still useful. I feel like most, or all modern plays feel fetch lands are key t1 and thats far from true.
Well to be fair you ran into the problem matchups in two of the three games. Looking at the top archetypes only burn and Gruul are serious issues, with the others being fair to positive matchups in my experience.
I've been testing this variant continually and I've made some changes to improve those matchups while maintaining our advantages: Stuff like a terminate maindeck to handle goyf, an extra spell snare sideboard for goyf and the 2cc burn spells, maelstrom pulse maindeck to kill whatever you want, and agony warp sideboard which is basically a lightning helix against aggro. Currently I'm trying 3x liliana in the main as an experiment because I love the card. She dominates games but I've yet to test her against aggro — seems reasonable. Burn cannot afford to let her live more than a turn since they need all their cards, and aggro can't let her edict twice so she's sort of a helix.
Obviously it would be hard to turn those matchups favorable but you win your fair share considering its the deck's absolute nightmare matchup.
To address the concerns you highlighted:
- Yes, the manabase is really greedy and it makes it hard in some games to come back because you're at 6 or something with a bob and can't afford to get more of your own lands! I don't usually have a problem with land amount or color, but you have to take a decent amount of damage to get there. As was just posted above an extra scars dual might help here. I have been experimenting with 2 tar pit since they're a roadblock in the early game and you usually only want one, replacing it with another fetchable red source. I might cut that for a blackcleave cliffs or maybe a sulfur falls. I might add a 21st land, perhaps a basic. What
- This is interesting, after playing the deck for a while I tend not to miss land drops too often. You really rip through the deck. I'm curious to hear if you continue to find this if you decide to play the deck more. One thing about snapcaster in this shell is that I believe he's intended to be a turn 2 play after holding up counter magic a fair amount of the time. I have had some success with this method, especially against tron where he'll get 4-6 damage in.
- I find this too, the deck is very competitive for mana. You will rarely not tap all your land every turn. I have found that eschewing spells for deathrite activations is often correct. I win more with the deck now that I try to adopt a burn philosophy in many situations and just try to count to 20 rather than advancing the board.
- Yes, it's tricky to make sure you can play cryptic t4 which is when it has max blowout potential. In the zac hill list there are only 2 lands which don't make blue, IIRC, so it's typically a matter of just getting to 4 land which I talked about a bit above.
Anyway the deck definitely has problems, it's not tier 1. I'm not sure what it would take to get there. But I do find it much more successful the more I play, and I'm still discovering its quirks as I go.
To follow this up the funny thing about the deck is that you often feel like you won _by accident_, like they have two 5/6 goyfs which you cryptic into double bolt into tar pit for the win. Or they drop karn and you somehow get exactsies with deathrite plus two bobs plus EOT snapcaster + bolt. I find that if I just try to WIN, somehow, I am more successful than if I try to dominate the game. Let them do what they want, and win anyway.
I had a game (albeit against a rogue deck) where I killed my opponent from 15 by going bolt, snapcaster bolt, chump with snapcaster to stay alive, untap, bolt bolt tar pit. That's the deck's style I think.
Yeah this is definitely a deck where you have to always be looking for how you can get some damage in on the opponent and just take every opportunity to do so (within reason). If you aren't under immediate threat and your opponent isn't playing a deck where you need to be wary of a random combo kill, you should almost always be looking for the lines that get the most damage in. Turn 1 creature is usually better than turn 1 spell, because your goal is to put them on a clock while you keep them off-balance. Burn (with Snapcaster), Deathrites, and Tar Pits give you a lot of ways to force damage through that they can't block, so if you force through some damage early you can often use those cards to take it from there and ignore their defenses.
As far as the manabase goes, I feel like Zac Hill's build cuts it very very fine. Personally, I would run something more like this:
3x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Watery Grave
1x Steam Vents
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
21 lands is a lot more forgiving than 20, and here the extra is a third Tar Pit so it doesn't feel too bad. (I cut a creature and run 16 of them, as my extra land is also a threat to replace it.) Having the option to crack a Scalding Tarn to fetch a basic Mountain is something I've liked, even thought it increases the "bad with Cryptic Command" count to three. 4 Darkslick Shores may be too many, as I know I'm only on 7 fetches in a Deathrite Shaman deck, but you do your most important work in the early game and playing an untapped Darkslick Shores feels really good- it makes each of your main colors and with no drawback. Having the full set of Shores helps you avoid taking too much damage against beatdown while still being able to play your spells.
I would not run Blackcleave Cliffs in a list close to the original, since land slots are really tight and lands that don't make U or interact with fetches don't really appeal to me. However, I would definitely consider them in Grixis variants running 0 or 1 Cryptic Commands, or with early drops like Grim Lavamancer or Goblin Guide, for the same reason that I like Darkslick Shores.
I do agree that darkslick is the MVP of the manabase and I think going to 21 lands is sadly a necessity. Even in the games where you "flood" you tend to use all of your mana every turn – deathrites and tar pits and flashing stuff back. It is necessary to cut a permanent as you have, because our delver % is already low. I wouldn’t go for the mountain but I understand the appeal. It’s only fetchable by Scalding tarn. As for the 7 fetches, how does deathrite perform with only 7? I find having him as a BoP for the first few turns is absolutely crucial.
I’m trying to figure out a way to either get Delver to flip more often, or cut it and add Goyfs. Scavenging Ooze would need a smoother manabase I think. Any ideas?
I put down this deck for a while because of the popularity of burn at the local shop. Picking it back up next week and planning on revamping from my old list with the vexing devils. I'm going to try young pyromancer in that slot however. Anyone have any experience with him?
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Dark Confidant
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Young Pyromancer
1x Vendilion Clique
[15] Instants:
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Magma Jet
4x Remand
2x Terminate
1x Electrolyze
2x Cryptic Command
[9] Sorcery:
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
3x Creeping Tarpit
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Geth's Verdict
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Dreadbore
1x Thoughtseize
In my brief testing Pyromancer has done well - With this set up I have three separate powerhouse creatures (bob, pyro, and snappy) + Delver for quick beats. The strategy is to stick one of those 4 with a delver and beat while increasing CA with cantrips and such. An unchecked Bob or Pyro will win the game in most situations I can imagine. I don't use a ton of fetches because of the burn in my meta...
Some Thoughts:
Match-ups I will probably see:
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Augur of Bolas
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vampire Nighthawk
[13] Instants:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
3 Mana Leak
3 Electrolyze
[9] Sorcery:
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Creeping Tarpit
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Disfigure
3 Devour Flesh
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Shadow of Doubt
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I know a few of my card choices like Augur/Nighthawk and the lack of Cryptic are unconventional, this is not due to card availability.
Augur is close to guaranteed value, helps make my draw more spell dense, can protect a confidant from Liliana and does a fair amount of blocking in a deck archetype that is usually all 1-toughness creatures.
Nighthawk helps me bounce back from a health deficit so that my Confidants don't get stuck in my hand. It can also line up well against Lingering Souls or large Tarmogoyfs which can otherwise be problematic.
Cryptic isn't in the list because I want to keep the curve low, the land count low and my spells focused on board control. There should probably be 1 in the board but currently I feel they are too clunky.
I have tried to make the sideboard mostly spells so that they can be targeted by Augur.
I am not trying to have all the answers, I am just trying to disrupt them into a board state where I can win the race.
SO - with young pyromancer I am going to try Grixis Charm for pumps. In testing I find Cryptic Command to be too expensive when I want to use mana for other things. So in its place Ill use a charm and a rise // fall.
New List:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Dark Confidant
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Young Pyromancer
2x Vendilion Clique
[14] Instants:
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Izzet Charm
4x Remand
2x Terminate
1x Electrolyze
1x Grixis Charm
4x Serum Visions
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Rise // Fall
[21] Land:
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
3x Creeping Tarpit
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Blood Crypt
2x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
3x Island
4x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Geth's Verdict
3x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Thoughtseize
Key Changes:
Replace Magma Jet with Izzet Charm. Sure the scrying is nice but sometimes you need a counterspell. Or you get flooded and need to draw.
Rise // Fall and Grixis Charm - easier to cast and often just as crippling as cryptic command.
More IoK, less Thoughtseize. The life loss was often difficult and I think it is better post SB.
The Sideboard Choices I made are for reanimator, Melira Pod, Slippery Bogle, and Tron.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I would personally max out on Young Pyromancer. That card gives you so much value. I would actually cut either a V-Clique or a Snapcaster Mage.
Some other changes I would personally make is:
-1 Grixes Charm: You dont really need the pump ability on it. This isnt really an aggro deck, and the other two modes on it is just okay.
-1 Rise//Fall: Just isnt that fantastic. Not what you want to be doing in a deck like this. Just feels a little derdly.
-1 IoK- Should be thoughtseize.
Now that adds:
+2 Thoughtseize: Just need to diversify your discard suite.
+1 Electrolyze: This card is the nutter butters.
As for the SB:
I dont like grafdiggers cage all that much. If youre worried about reanimator, and Melira Pod, then you should be playing Rakdos Charm. Removing the graveyard is very good at instant speed. Its a spell that flips delver and for pyromanncer and snappy. Also is good against twin, and kiki pod on the mode for each player loses life equal to the number of creatures they have. It is also good againt Affinity which might be a rough matchup. More Lilianas, and I wouldnt play geths verdict. I would play devour flesh instead. Also another good thing about putting the 2 Thoughtseize back in the main is that you open up more slots in the SB. If you find life loss is being a problem for you, you need to look at how youre piloting the deck, it shouldnt be that big of a deal since you playing a pseudo control deck. Im not sure why you want spell snare in the bored. Just some of my opinions though.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Augur of Bolas (or Liliana???)
Instants (19)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Izzet Charm
2 Terminate
3 Mana Leak
3 Remand
4 Electrolyze
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands (21)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
3-4 Spellskite
3-4 Spreading Seas (or Molten Rain)
2-3 Rakdos Charm
2 Countersquall
Card choices I'm not so sure about:
Spell snare: I'd like to include the card, but it just feels not worth the spot anytime I've had it in hand so far. Spell pierce has been pretty useful at early counters and at good at protecting my threats.
Thirst for Knowledge: Running vials made me want to try this, but it felt clunky to use since I'd usually have a vial in play by the time I cast it. Perilous research has felt like a much better way to ditch unnecessary or late-game vials and has sweet synergy with YP. Doesn't dig as deep though.
Grixis Charm: It's kind of anything this deck wants and 1 less mana than cryptic. Most of the time, I found myself using cryptic as a fog, draw while trying to find a finisher burn spell. Familiar's Ruse has done a good job at filling the hard counter needs.
Familiar's Ruse: I can't really tell if it's worth it over izzet charm or something else. But it works similar to perilous research in that you don't lose a token if YP is on the board (assuming 1 is already out). It also has really good synergy with Snapcaster (little brother to the eternal command soft lock).
Anyways, I'd like to hear people's thoughts and suggestions!
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Reflecting Pool
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
4x Aether Vial
12 Creature
3x Dark Confidant
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
1x Vendillion Clique
25 Instant/Sorcery
1x Burst Lightning
1x Cryptic Command
1x Familiar's Ruse
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Izzet Charm
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
3x Remand
1x Grixis Charm
2x Perilous Research
3x Serum Visions
1x Spell Pierce
1x Terminate
Standard: Mono Red #GetSwol
Elsewhere: Random Brews All Day, Erreday
~
Is Young Pyromancer really that excellent of a card? I have not tried him out at all, and quit standard so have not even seen him in play. The card looks nice, but can the 1/1 tokens really be that game changing?
Also, if this is the direction it may form into why not try adding some of the cards with a 'Storm' effect? Cards like Ground Rift or Grape Shot or is that being too cute? I really hope one day Flusterstorm enters the modern card pool.
Now in reference to the versions still playing Delver, does anyone find that the deck might be better off without Bob? That sounds stupid but when his in my hand I always find myself wanting to play something else, or leave mana open instead. Unless I'm doing something wrong, I never really seem to want to play him.
First off yes Young Pyromancer is that good. He completed the "cycle" of insane two drops for the colors. He can be played in a storm type deck but thats not his best shell since that is a combo deck and he doesnt help that game plan. He thrives in tempo decks like these.
Also again Dark Confidant is insane. He is part of the "cycle" i mentioned. If you play him on turn 2, and he lives he will just run away with the game. The sheer amount of card advantage he gives is insane.
I don't think it's that excellent. Young Pyromancer is such a high variance card.
There are a lot of situations where you untap with it on turn 3 and you don't make a token as you have reactive cards in your hand like counters(specifically spell snare) or burn. There are times where your opponent has no creatures and they use a removal spell on your YP, do you bolt their face to get a 1/1? Getting a "free" 1/1 isn't that powerful in modern. Why not just play lingering souls or spectral procession? At least those have evasion for the same mana cost.
If you want to make the best YP deck where you have 30+spells, you lower your threat density. So in order to win a game with that style of deck you have to have an active YP for a few turns, or hope your opponent lost 5 life using fetches/shocks and you can try to burn them out. You hope to draw one of your 8-12 threats or hope to burn them out.
Lastly there's the fact that the decks you play YP in are all weak to electrolyze. It's the 9th most played spell in modern.
Obviously there's the other side where you stall at four lands, and all your spells interact with what the opponent is doing and you make four 1/1s and crush your opponent. But that doesn't happen very often.
Saying this card completes the cycle is short sided. All those creatures are great top decks. YP, not so much.
Storm effects don't work with YP. You have to cast the spell, creating copies does not make 1/1 tokens.
I completely disagree. Have you seen the articles pros are writing? I can give you the link to one that Drew Levin said the exact same thing I did. The title of his article was "the cycle is complete" but I guess he doesnt really know what he is talking about...
He is just has high variant as Delver, Stoneforge Mystic. He gives so much value. You said it happens often that you dont play anything on the next turn you have him out so you dont get a token right away because you may want to leave counter magic up. Do you realize how good this is? Countering a relevant spell then getting a creature off it is insane. In your other senario okay so the killed your guy with you getting no value out of it. That like saying Tarmogoyf is terrible because removal spells exist. If you cast him and dies he is poop. That is just an invalid argument.
As for Eleztrolyze, a lot of decks are terrible against this card, kiki pod, Melira Pod, Affinity, Soul Sisters, Ect. Just because one card is good against a deck doesnt mean you shouldnt play this deck. Plus this deck plays counter spells so its not even that good. Especially if you go turn 1 delver, flip on turn 2 then a Young Pyromancer. They cant kill both of them.
Also saying all those cards are great top decks is insane. Snapcaster Mage is unreal when youre facing down a deathrite shaman, and Dark Confidant is the nuts against a burn deck, or affinity. Or how about Goyf when your opponent played a Relic of Prog. There are going to be times when all those cards are good and bad top decks. You dismissing it so quickly is the wrong thing to do.
Edit: Here is the link
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26639_Young-Pyromancer-The-Cycle-Is-Complete.html
The jury's still out on YP anyway, but I also don't feel it's nearly as good as the other four 2 drops in this "cycle". Then again, it's just a guess. The next Modern GP should teach us a lot on that.
Thanks for your insight, I think you summarized that very well. That's also why I needed to ask; the card looks like it has great potential but you made an excellent opposing view. I'm will still give it a try, I never seen him in action but in the end I may stick with delver.
You...? I...?
By golly your right, how foolish of me to miss that. Next time ill be sure to read the 'full' card, and not skip words to the cool stuff.
Also in regard to my Confidant remark, I agree his is amazing overall but maybe its me an I'm choosing when to play him wrong.
His only "free" enabler is Gitaxian Probe which is legal in moder, and Force of Will which just good all the time. The other things are just like cantrips that since are either banned or not legal modern has to Young Pyro decks will have to sub out for things like targeted discard spells like IoK and Thoughtseize, things that Drew is not playing in the main because he gets those cantrips. Apart from that the entire creature base is Legal in Modern, and 1/3 of the spell base is legal in modern, and 1/2 of the mana base is legal, and thats not counting the dual but we get shocks. The only huge thing is wasteland, and stifle. Then again Modern isnt quite as degenerate as Legacy.
This. Just because Young Pyromancer is showing up results online doesn't mean it's good, it just means that there are players winning with it, possibly because it's being overplayed. I don't think Modern has enough cards to generate value with Young Pyromancer, most of it just playing subpar cards like Gitaxian Probe and Serum Visions. I would not want to tap out turn 2 to play Young Pyromancer, and I don't think you want to open yourself up to what could happen either.