So I fiddled around with this deck for months turning it to a jund, loam, and affinity crazed Meta. It worked wonders. The problem became very evident as the Meta diversified and pod and rg from came onto the scene. We can't pack enough catch all answers in grixis while still maintaining our speed and tempo. Goyf and GoST just do more to further our goal. I'm typing this up on my phone but ill put up some details lists and matchups later tonight.
edit: im sorry, I know I promised some match up goodness, but modern turnouts have been...dismal? If a serious event with tier 1 decks does fire, I will be sure to report hear in case anyone still looks at this thread. But I really don't think I should type a lengthy double post about how I stomped last standards UW delver and bad elf tribal decks two weeks in a row.
In other news, crazy nitwits playing dress-up have also convicted the Hamburglar, the Cookie Crisp Crook, and the Frito Bandito of sundry snack-related thefts.
Seriously, what about this strikes you as remotely worthy of discussion?
"Snapcaster sucks." Are you kidding? You gave so little evidence to this claim.
Drawing multiples sucks? Tell that to tombstalker, v.Clique, and GoST that doesn't make them less powerful cards, not even a little bit. The only logical thing you said on this topic is that he won't flip delver, but no other creature(vexing devil) will flip delver, doesn't mean you don't run any.
Why are people so married to Snapcaster next to Delver? Is it simply that the instant/sorcery card count to make Delver good also makes Snapcaster too good to bench? I'd like to see something more robust at 2-drop in a more aggro delver build.
^ I would think those two spells, in particular, are a bit slow. Hard to say what you might want to use instead.
Also, I comprehend the logic of wanting a more aggressive creature than snapcaster in aggro builds, but I would not for a second discount the obvious fact that snapcaster is insanely powerful and, as a card in its own right, worth considering less aggressive builds in order to run.
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Piloting:
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
In other news, crazy nitwits playing dress-up have also convicted the Hamburglar, the Cookie Crisp Crook, and the Frito Bandito of sundry snack-related thefts.
Seriously, what about this strikes you as remotely worthy of discussion?
Why are people so married to Snapcaster next to Delver? Is it simply that the instant/sorcery card count to make Delver good also makes Snapcaster too good to bench? I'd like to see something more robust at 2-drop in a more aggro delver build.
As far as grixis delver goes you need, oonas prowler, stormblood berserker or dark confidant. And hand disruption is what makes black good in modern. This deck needs 4 Ioks and 3 thoughtseize or blackmail- budget.
So this is pretty interesting. Thought I'd make a list.
I quite like how Bob and Delver compliment eachother: the very same library manipulation that you want for enabling your Delvers is also appreciated by old Bob. Furthermore, one fun thing you can do is use an unflipped Delver to "check" the top card of your Library for Bob if you have a fetch you can shuffle with.
Would it be better to run Esper? and add geist and run 15-16 creatures (either 3 snaps or 3 geist) and 18-19 lands with 25-28 spells (serum, probe, hand disruption, souls, counter magic, snags, paths, and dismember)
I like only 2 snapcasters, I dont like how everyone autos 4 in every deck with blue. I would suggest replacing go for the throat with terminate, adding one more Iok, and getting your creature count to 16, possibly adding a strong beater to make up the numbers. Grim lavamancer rips in this deck, I would try him mb.
I think grixis delver is a really good deck right now when you make it right. Here are key elements when making one
Creeping tar pit- best man land in modern, use 3 of them
Strong beaters- get dmg down fast
Jund colors jund cards- we have 2 of jund colors so use their cards and sidebaord. Our best weapon is hand disruption run about 7
Here is my opptimized grixis delver list, that ive made in paper
A lot of people complain about Vexing Devil, but what about Vexing Devil in combination with Rise // Fall ? Sure, pay 4 life - then do it again and return your goyf... That might be hard to recover from for most decks. 8 damage, or a 4/3 body that eats a removal spell (might as well be a IOK at that point).
I played my grixis delver at a tournament for the first time eysterday and it performed very well. I beat out burn twice, beat american delver, but lost to a tron deck because of his turn 3 tron activations out of pure luck dispite my disruption (also got mana flooded g2).
After playing in the tournament I decided to remove deathrite shaman from my build in favor of vexing devils. Most of the time my deathrite was just sitting there because I needed my mana for other things (I only run 4 fetches to mitigate burn). Vexing Devil in that slot was just the card I think I needed for that bit of extra damage to put my opponent into creeping tarpit kill range. I tested this versus R/G tron and it worked out very well. Often I killed my opponent the turn after he played wurmcoil engine - never having the chance to attack or block for lifegain.
The allstars of this deck were (4x) dark confidant and (3x) snapcaster mage. This deck does not work without the consistent card advantage that these two cards provide.
Rise // fall gives you instant card advantage and has great synergy with Vexing Devil and Snapcaster Mage. Before including vexing devil I ran this card but often held it in my hand because there was nothing relevant in my grave to return - Vexing Devil fixes this problem.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I love this concept. Compared to traditional jund we get counters, snapcaster, and a flying beater in exchange for a ground beater or two and maelstrom pulse. This seems like a strong trade.
I feel like sedraxis specter is tough to justify in a format of lingering souls and loxodon smiters.
The vexing devil + rise/fall plan is cute. This is a fancy burn deck that can deal 10+ in a turn pretty fast, so they kind of need to burn removal on him, and they'll need their removal for our beaters.
I'm wondering about the lack of Liliana in some of these lists — is this just so we can be faster and more tempo-based than resource-denial based?
I feel like sedraxis specter is tough to justify in a format of lingering souls and loxodon smiters.
The vexing devil + rise/fall plan is cute. This is a fancy burn deck that can deal 10+ in a turn pretty fast, so they kind of need to burn removal on him, and they'll need their removal for our beaters.
I'm wondering about the lack of Liliana in some of these lists — is this just so we can be faster and more tempo-based than resource-denial based?
I mainly run sedraxis specter because I only have 2x Vendilion Clique. Also, he is a nice flying beater that comes back for seconds. The discard is really just a bonus to the unearth ability for me.
The Rise//Fall + Vexing Devil combo is really fun - thanks for noticing it! Rise//Fall is very versatile against almost any deck and we have a ton of great targets for Rise.
My experience with Liliana OtV (I did try it for a while) is "clunkiness" that is hard to explain. It doesn't count for delver or snapcaster which is a huge downside on top of the 2 black mana in a deck that relies mostly on blue and red.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Are people actively testing this? I wonder how bad a problem lingering souls is.
Spirit tokens definitely suck but they can be dealt with in a variety of ways g2. We have access to a variety of cards that do well here including cards like electrickery and surgical extraction. Also remand deals with the flashback quite nicely since the spell is countered and exiled and you draw a card... Luckily my meta has very few decks that run spirit token factories.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I threw a grixis delver list together today. Still needs a lot of work. My issue is not being agressive enough. I didn't have Vendilion Cliques but I ran 2 Tombstalkers. It's a good card but not fast enough for the deck. Great end game if it last, which all of my games used most of the clock.
Rise and Fall is amazing. If destroys my opponents hand.
I ran 3 Lavamancers and he didnt do much because every game he got killed or countered before I got use him.
I'm going to add 3-4 Oona's Prowler for next week and try to fix my mana base.
I don't know if anyone has affinity in there meta but I can't keep up with unless I have a hand of removal.
RWU is also tough because all there creatures are bigger. Any suggestions?
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"Your first mistake was thinking I would let you live long enough to make a second."
—Sarnvax, Gitaxian sective
Spirit tokens definitely suck but they can be dealt with in a variety of ways g2. We have access to a variety of cards that do well here including cards like electrickery and surgical extraction. Also remand deals with the flashback quite nicely since the spell is countered and exiled and you draw a card... Luckily my meta has very few decks that run spirit token factories.
Have you tried Izzet Staticaster in that role? It seems like it would provide insane value vs a lot of decks — sort of like electrolyze but with more blowout potential.
I'm going to put together a list based on this thread and the Zach Hill deck from a few weeks ago and see how it does.
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Is no one else trying this out?
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
edit: im sorry, I know I promised some match up goodness, but modern turnouts have been...dismal? If a serious event with tier 1 decks does fire, I will be sure to report hear in case anyone still looks at this thread. But I really don't think I should type a lengthy double post about how I stomped last standards UW delver and bad elf tribal decks two weeks in a row.
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
Creatures - 10:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Death's Shadow
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
3 Dismember
2 Electrolyze
2 Izzet Charm
1 Terminate
Sorcery - 8:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
2 Shattering Spree
1 Terminate / Spell Pierce / Flex slot
Discuss?
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
Why are people so married to Snapcaster next to Delver? Is it simply that the instant/sorcery card count to make Delver good also makes Snapcaster too good to bench? I'd like to see something more robust at 2-drop in a more aggro delver build.
Have people considered using moan of the unhallowed and talrand's invocation with Delver to push the deck more aggro. Are they simply too slow?
Also, I comprehend the logic of wanting a more aggressive creature than snapcaster in aggro builds, but I would not for a second discount the obvious fact that snapcaster is insanely powerful and, as a card in its own right, worth considering less aggressive builds in order to run.
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
As far as grixis delver goes you need, oonas prowler, stormblood berserker or dark confidant. And hand disruption is what makes black good in modern. This deck needs 4 Ioks and 3 thoughtseize or blackmail- budget.
I quite like how Bob and Delver compliment eachother: the very same library manipulation that you want for enabling your Delvers is also appreciated by old Bob. Furthermore, one fun thing you can do is use an unflipped Delver to "check" the top card of your Library for Bob if you have a fetch you can shuffle with.
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sulfur Falls
Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Moan of the Unhallowed
Instants:
3 Terminate
3 Magma Jet
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Electrolyze
2 Izzet Charm
2 Remand
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Smelt
2 Go for the Throat
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
2 Deprive
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Blood Moon
I like only 2 snapcasters, I dont like how everyone autos 4 in every deck with blue. I would suggest replacing go for the throat with terminate, adding one more Iok, and getting your creature count to 16, possibly adding a strong beater to make up the numbers. Grim lavamancer rips in this deck, I would try him mb.
Creeping tar pit- best man land in modern, use 3 of them
Strong beaters- get dmg down fast
Jund colors jund cards- we have 2 of jund colors so use their cards and sidebaord. Our best weapon is hand disruption run about 7
Here is my opptimized grixis delver list, that ive made in paper
Creatures - 16
4 delver of secrets
4 oonas prowler
3 stormblood berserker
2 grim lavamancer
2 sedraxis spectre
1 rakdos augermage
4 inquision of kozileck
2 thoughtsieze
1 rise fall
4 lightning bolt
4 serum visions
2 terminate
3 mana leak
3 spell peirce
1 izzet charm
4 darkslick shores
4 blackcleave cliffs
3 steamvents
1 river of tears
1 mountain
2 swamp
2 island
2 slaughter games
3 rakdos charm
3 torpor orb
2 shatter storm
1 negate
1 combust
1 jace beleren
1 pyroclasm
1 batterskull
A list with Delvers, SCM, Bob and Seer should have some real potential.
I played my grixis delver at a tournament for the first time eysterday and it performed very well. I beat out burn twice, beat american delver, but lost to a tron deck because of his turn 3 tron activations out of pure luck dispite my disruption (also got mana flooded g2).
After playing in the tournament I decided to remove deathrite shaman from my build in favor of vexing devils. Most of the time my deathrite was just sitting there because I needed my mana for other things (I only run 4 fetches to mitigate burn). Vexing Devil in that slot was just the card I think I needed for that bit of extra damage to put my opponent into creeping tarpit kill range. I tested this versus R/G tron and it worked out very well. Often I killed my opponent the turn after he played wurmcoil engine - never having the chance to attack or block for lifegain.
The allstars of this deck were (4x) dark confidant and (3x) snapcaster mage. This deck does not work without the consistent card advantage that these two cards provide.
Rise // fall gives you instant card advantage and has great synergy with Vexing Devil and Snapcaster Mage. Before including vexing devil I ran this card but often held it in my hand because there was nothing relevant in my grave to return - Vexing Devil fixes this problem.
Current Build:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Dark Confidant
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Vexing Devil
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Sedraxis Specter
Spells:
4x Remand
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Magma Jet
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Terminate
2x Rise // Fall
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
2x Island
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Creeping Tarpit
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Darkslick Shore
2x Suflur Falls
1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
2x Dreadbore (tron)
4x Sowing Salts (tron, scapeshift)
3x Spell Snare (flex spot)
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Echoing Truth (tokens and more)
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I feel like sedraxis specter is tough to justify in a format of lingering souls and loxodon smiters.
The vexing devil + rise/fall plan is cute. This is a fancy burn deck that can deal 10+ in a turn pretty fast, so they kind of need to burn removal on him, and they'll need their removal for our beaters.
I'm wondering about the lack of Liliana in some of these lists — is this just so we can be faster and more tempo-based than resource-denial based?
It's a sub optimal Bob. You never play it outside of budget discussion. Its also a terrible flip to itself which is why its a bad 4-of unlike bob
I mainly run sedraxis specter because I only have 2x Vendilion Clique. Also, he is a nice flying beater that comes back for seconds. The discard is really just a bonus to the unearth ability for me.
The Rise//Fall + Vexing Devil combo is really fun - thanks for noticing it! Rise//Fall is very versatile against almost any deck and we have a ton of great targets for Rise.
My experience with Liliana OtV (I did try it for a while) is "clunkiness" that is hard to explain. It doesn't count for delver or snapcaster which is a huge downside on top of the 2 black mana in a deck that relies mostly on blue and red.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Are people actively testing this? I wonder how bad a problem lingering souls is.
Spirit tokens definitely suck but they can be dealt with in a variety of ways g2. We have access to a variety of cards that do well here including cards like electrickery and surgical extraction. Also remand deals with the flashback quite nicely since the spell is countered and exiled and you draw a card... Luckily my meta has very few decks that run spirit token factories.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Rise and Fall is amazing. If destroys my opponents hand.
I ran 3 Lavamancers and he didnt do much because every game he got killed or countered before I got use him.
I'm going to add 3-4 Oona's Prowler for next week and try to fix my mana base.
I don't know if anyone has affinity in there meta but I can't keep up with unless I have a hand of removal.
RWU is also tough because all there creatures are bigger. Any suggestions?
—Sarnvax, Gitaxian sective
Have you tried Izzet Staticaster in that role? It seems like it would provide insane value vs a lot of decks — sort of like electrolyze but with more blowout potential.
I'm going to put together a list based on this thread and the Zach Hill deck from a few weeks ago and see how it does.