Have you tried Izzet Staticaster in that role? It seems like it would provide insane value vs a lot of decks — sort of like electrolyze but with more blowout potential.
I'm going to put together a list based on this thread and the Zach Hill deck from a few weeks ago and see how it does.
Staticaster seems pretty popular, but why not also give Sulfur Elemental a look?
Here's a list I'm currently testing, for reference:
I can't make it to any Modern events for a while, and I've been more focused on my Legacy decks lately anyway, so I figured I may as well put up what I have for you guys to work with if you want.
I can't make it to any Modern events for a while, and I've been more focused on my Legacy decks lately anyway, so I figured I may as well put up what I have for you guys to work with if you want.
Sulfur Elemental looks superior!
I have a few questions about your list.
1) How do you find having 3 colors of 1-drop (deathrite, delver, guide). How do you find guide in general in this shell
2) How is shadow of doubt performing? It seems like a reasonable 2-for-1 much of the time.
3) Your list seems pretty tuned to creature matchups, how are you faring vs. combo and control?
1) How do you find having 3 colors of 1-drop (deathrite, delver, guide). How do you find guide in general in this shell
2) How is shadow of doubt performing? It seems like a reasonable 2-for-1 much of the time.
3) Your list seems pretty tuned to creature matchups, how are you faring vs. combo and control?
1) Currently, it doesn't appear to be problematic. I'll usually drop a Guide or a Shaman turn 1, then turn 2 or 3 drop Delver, depending on what I have in hand and what I dropped turn 1. With 8 fetches, I'm not seeing a much problem getting the mana I need early on.
2) Shadow of Doubt forces me to be a bit reactionary on turns 2 and 3, and that's if they crack a fetch. Against a deck like Jund, that's not really a problem. Against something like Tron or Exarch Twin (especially the Snapcaster tempo variant), I don't see it paying off for me as much.
3) The list is oriented to be more aggro-control in nature, and I'm running the burn suite for removal most of the time. What I like about this burn suite is the damage racing I can do with it. If I'm in burn range, I can just win that way. Considering how creature-heavy Modern is these days, having a good burn suite alongside Dismember seems a natural option to me. Regarding combo, I haven't had a chance to test it vs. Pod or Exarch Twin yet (although I am an Exarch Twin player and originally put Slaughter Games in the sb for the Twin matchup), but that's why I like Slaughter Games so much in the sideboard alongside Pithing Needle. I did test an early version of this deck against old Storm, and the matchup was favorable for me; that version also ran Izzet Charm in the flex slot, though, so take it as you will. I think the hand disruption plus the counterspell suite should slow down Modern combo decks. Post-board, I feel the matchups improve with the presence of Slaughter Games and Pithing Needle, and also Sowing Salt for the Scapeshift matchup.
Have you tried Izzet Staticaster in that role? It seems like it would provide insane value vs a lot of decks — sort of like electrolyze but with more blowout potential.
I'm going to put together a list based on this thread and the Zach Hill deck from a few weeks ago and see how it does.
I haven't tested that card in my list. Currently the list is very tight with the creature spots I have filled. 4x Dark Confidant, 4x Delver of Secrets, 2x Vendilion Clique, 3x Snapcaster mage are my "shell" which leaves me with replacing either 3x Vexing Devil, 1x Sedraxis Specter, or instants/sorceries. Personally I do not feel like Izzet Staticaster has a place MB for this deck. It is tough to justify that 3-drop which is pretty situational and has 0 attack. In the sideboard I might rather have electrickery (a true blowout as a 3 drop which counts for snapcaster and delver) or electrolyze which provides draw and is a possible 3-for-1.
1) How do you find having 3 colors of 1-drop (deathrite, delver, guide). How do you find guide in general in this shell
2) How is shadow of doubt performing? It seems like a reasonable 2-for-1 much of the time.
3) Your list seems pretty tuned to creature matchups, how are you faring vs. combo and control?
I know this wasnt directed at me but I have experience her that I can share as well. I think Sulfur elemental is a very strong sideboard card that I just put in the "buy these soon" category. This card is also insanely good against soul sisters (man I wish people would stop playing that deck). here is a link to my list for reference: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9911837&postcount=56
1) I used to run deathrite shaman in my deck but found that I usually needed the mana that I would use to do damage with this nifty creature open for remands or other spells in my bag of tricks. IMO deathrite is a stretch for this deck and I have much more synergy with Rise // Fall and Vexing Devil so I opted for that combination of cards instead. To more directly answer your question I have also never had issues with mana (CML) on T1 with my 1-drops: Serum Visions, Vexing Devil, Inquisition of Kozilek, Delver of Secrets.
3) My list does have a decent amount of burn in it (Vexing Devil gives a lot of reach also) but not nearly as much as Barracuda's List. I really Like Barracuda's List for his resistance to creature decks. I went with more of a one deck has a good matchup against most strategy when building. Dismember, Electrolyze, and Cryptic Command are cards I have tested but have found to be too costly in the life/mana department. Also, they increase the chance of taking a ton of damage from dark confidant especially absent 4x Serum Visions for deck manipulation... In my experience cheaper spells work better with this deck - more synergy and better tempo. Dark Confidant can really shine in this deck and offers insane card advantage that wins games for me all the time. Having a variety of spells to deal with different situations and a draw engine like that is tough to pass up.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
1) I used to run deathrite shaman in my deck but found that I usually needed the mana that I would use to do damage with this nifty creature open for remands or other spells in my bag of tricks. IMO deathrite is a stretch for this deck and I have much more synergy with Rise // Fall and Vexing Devil so I opted for that combination of cards instead. To more directly answer your question I have also never had issues with mana (CML) on T1 with my 1-drops: Serum Visions, Vexing Devil, Inquisition of Kozilek, Delver of Secrets.
3) My list does have a decent amount of burn in it (Vexing Devil gives a lot of reach also) but not nearly as much as Barracuda's List. I really Like Barracuda's List for his resistance to creature decks. I went with more of a one deck has a good matchup against most strategy when building. Dismember, Electrolyze, and Cryptic Command are cards I have tested but have found to be too costly in the life/mana department. Also, they increase the chance of taking a ton of damage from dark confidant especially absent 4x Serum Visions for deck manipulation... In my experience cheaper spells work better with this deck - more synergy and better tempo. Dark Confidant can really shine in this deck and offers insane card advantage that wins games for me all the time. Having a variety of spells to deal with different situations and a draw engine like that is tough to pass up.
1) Early on I end up just using Deathrite Shaman as a mana dork, and maybe to get a ping in here or there. If he survives long enough, he's pretty good when I'm trying to deal the last bit of damage for the kill. Vexing Devil is a neat option.
2) Shadow of Doubt is pretty much something I've been trying out in an attempt to find a modern card that can be as useful as Stifle is in Legacy. It may be a doomed quest, but it can't hurt to try.
3) Dark Confidant is awesome, but I really want access to 3 and 4 cc cards that make the combo matchup better for me, so instead I've just worked in that most stuff scrys, cantrips, or takes away card advantage from the opponent.
I think anyone interested in playing this deck should read this article. I switched up my list quite a bit after reading it. I still think you get more value out of a vexing devil package with Rise // Fall than with 4x Deathrite Shaman though. The GY removal DRS offers is relevant, however.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I read Zac's article a while back, and that's what started me testing it again more recently. His running Dark Confidant alongside 3 Cryptics and 1 Electrolyze MD is a bit heroic - I'd be nervous running such a package. Granted, he is actually finding a good use for Serum Visions; its interaction with Bob is really nice and makes it into a much better card than it normally would be.
Here is my updated decklist that I am going to try after reading the article. I tested it on cockatrice a bit and it runs very smooth. Main changes were to the sideboard. I agree with relevant upgrades versus all-out hosers that are matchup specific in the SB.
Some things I am still unsure about:
-Cryptic Command (is it worth the possible hit from Dark Confidant? Mana base issues?)
-Liliana of the Veil (vs Jace Beleren in the SB)
-Rakdos Charm (for utility vs other more efficient artifact hate)
-Snapcaster Mage (run 3 or 4? I have had experiences in the past where I drew two at the beginning of a game and had issues because of mana, I think more lands are needed to support 4)
-Sulfur Elemental (totally untested, but in theory a strong card against some of our worst matchups, has flash!)
I would optimally run a few more fetches and shocks but my meta has a ton of burn, so the damage from these land options is a bit much G1. I feel 2x thoughtseize MB is worth the risk because the other major archetype in my meta is Tron.
Thoughts?
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I like the list for the most part. Here's my comments:
- Cryptic Command in a deck with Bob makes me nervous. You do have Serum Visions to set up draws off of Bob, and that lone Magma Jet... I would run at least one more Magma Jet if you're going to keep Cryptic Command around. Otherwise, I would switch out Cryptic Command for 2x Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, or Spell Snare.
- Liliana of the Veil is definitely a better choice over any Jace in Modern.
- 3 looks like the right number for Snapcaster Mage in this deck. I completely agree that you would have to run more mana to support 4.
- Sulfur Elemental is beast against anything running Lingering Souls in Legacy, and UR & 'Murica players love using this card as a solution.
I'm testing the Zac Hill list barring a few cards I haven't found a good price on yet. The cryptics are not too much of a problem for casting, you really rip through your deck. I do think I'd prefer a magma jet in the slot he has for pillar of flame — functionally similar but fixes our topdecks.
It's far too intricate a deck for me to pilot well at the moment, I have to get a bunch of games in to make any real decisions. I'm going to just try to stick it out with the decisions Hill made, which I assume to be well-considered, until I feel my playskill is sufficient to make calls about it.
The article does break down the deck into "core" and "non-core" components, and he explains what is truly indispensable, so I think there is a lot of license to tweak the deck for your meta and play style.
I like the list for the most part. Here's my comments:
- Cryptic Command in a deck with Bob makes me nervous. You do have Serum Visions to set up draws off of Bob, and that lone Magma Jet... I would run at least one more Magma Jet if you're going to keep Cryptic Command around. Otherwise, I would switch out Cryptic Command for 2x Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, or Spell Snare.
- Liliana of the Veil is definitely a better choice over any Jace in Modern.
- 3 looks like the right number for Snapcaster Mage in this deck. I completely agree that you would have to run more mana to support 4.
- Sulfur Elemental is beast against anything running Lingering Souls in Legacy, and UR & 'Murica players love using this card as a solution.
Thanks for the advice! I have decided to go without the cryptic commands especially since I forgot that rise // fall counts as a Cmc of 4. I think I like spell snare in that spot for things like goyf, confidant, various spells in tron, and so much more. This also frees up 2 spots in the SB for 2 more magma jets I think.
Thoughts?
@ tfu. Please let us know how everything is working out as you get more into it. I have reported on some of my success with this play style in past posts. Unfortunately a lot of the more pricey cards are really important to the deck. Try it out on cockatrice
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Thanks for the advice! I have decided to go without the cryptic commands especially since I forgot that rise // fall counts as a Cmc of 4. I think I like spell snare in that spot for things like goyf, confidant, various spells in tron, and so much more. This also frees up 2 spots in the SB for 2 more magma jets I think.
Thoughts?
@ tfu. Please let us know how everything is working out as you get more into it. I have reported on some of my success with this play style in past posts. Unfortunately a lot of the more pricey cards are really important to the deck. Try it out on cockatrice
I have been putting this all together on MODO since I wasn't aware of simple cockatrice options these days! How are you testing?
I haven't found 3x cryptic to be a big deal with the confidants. That particular interaction happens rarely enough and it's only 4. They are the card I am most happy to have in the deck, I wouldn't cut them. I find that that's when this variant "pulls away" — turn 4 or 5, you counter/draw, they have an empty board with maybe 1 threat left in hand while you have 4 cards of gas. They wonder how this happened
Then being able to snapcaster them late in the game is just unfair.
However in your burn-centric variant I think I might prefer to just never get to 6 lands and bringing back vexing devil is important.
Thanks for the advice! I have decided to go without the cryptic commands especially since I forgot that rise // fall counts as a Cmc of 4. I think I like spell snare in that spot for things like goyf, confidant, various spells in tron, and so much more. This also frees up 2 spots in the SB for 2 more magma jets I think.
Thoughts?
@ tfu. Please let us know how everything is working out as you get more into it. I have reported on some of my success with this play style in past posts. Unfortunately a lot of the more pricey cards are really important to the deck. Try it out on cockatrice
Oh, and in general the deck is really sweet. I have never played a deck of this complexity and interactivity. I am testing at a low win rate compared to my previous deck (RDW) but I'm positive it's down to pilot error (I've been losing the mirror for instance) and I believe the claim that the deck has an outstanding shell.
The one change I'm considering would be something else to do during their turn if I leave up counter mana and they just pass — considering thought scour and izzet charm but both are underwhelming. I'm trying 2x vendilion clique main, maybe that will be enough.
Yeah, I usually win with 4-5 lands out and am largely reliant on creeping tarpit at times for a finisher. I decided to stick with the burn variant because of my meta game. I replaced the 2x Cryptic Commands with 1x electrolyze and 1x Remand. I am not sure if I should just use 2x Spell Pierce/ Spell Snare instead... Meta is burn, tron, and delver-centric and I usually do well against other tempo/midrange decks. Going to a tournament Tuesday...
Oh, and in general the deck is really sweet. I have never played a deck of this complexity and interactivity. I am testing at a low win rate compared to my previous deck (RDW) but I'm positive it's down to pilot error (I've been losing the mirror for instance) and I believe the claim that the deck has an outstanding shell.
The one change I'm considering would be something else to do during their turn if I leave up counter mana and they just pass — considering thought scour and izzet charm but both are underwhelming. I'm trying 2x vendilion clique main, maybe that will be enough.
I would try Magma Jet - if you don't use mana for countermagic then you can shoot something down or do 2 to the dome and possible set up your next 2 turns. Also great to use with Snapcaster early game. Vendilion clique works best at the end of opponent's draw step so not ideal at EOT after not using mana for countering stuff... I think Clique is necessary for this deck anyhow for beats and disruption.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I would try Magma Jet - if you don't use mana for countermagic then you can shoot something down or do 2 to the dome and possible set up your next 2 turns. Also great to use with Snapcaster early game. Vendilion clique works best at the end of opponent's draw step so not ideal at EOT after not using mana for countering stuff... I think Clique is necessary for this deck anyhow for beats and disruption.
Yep I think this sounds great. I do kind of want more 1cc instants because I find myself unable to use all my mana sometimes with all the 2cc spells in the deck. But magma jet is basically perfect esp. since I'm running delver.
Hi there, this deck is Sweet and i wanna give it a try. Also it skips goyfs which is great and the grixis colours have great potential. I liked more than the uwr version and think its more agressive.
I want you guys to have a look at this build im working on, i don't find Slots for everything i want. I have to abdicate of some spells, though im going to put it in a consideration list.
Something like this:
4 delver of secrets
4 dark confidant
2 oona's prowler
1 sedraxis specter
Any thoughts on Blood Scrivener in this deck? It would work well with a lot of cantrips - I understand our build would have to evolve quite a bit to incorporate this card but it could be like having 8 bobs in one deck. I see potential in this card.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Any thoughts on Blood Scrivener in this deck? It would work well with a lot of cantrips - I understand our build would have to evolve quite a bit to incorporate this card but it could be like having 8 bobs in one deck. I see potential in this card.
In the Zac Hill variant you don't run out of cards that much. You sort of float at 3 or 4 even without a bob, since you're 2-for-1ing them all the time. I bet in the burn variant you run out of cards far more easily and can spend burn to get there if necessary.
I just had a terrible night with the Zac Hill deck so I figured I would share some of its problems.
Game 1 vs U/W Tron I won 2-0. This variant does very well against these types of decks with everything he did being countered or discarded.
Game 2 vs B/W/R Burn 0-2. This was a rough matchup - because of the the amount of fetches and shocks we need to run the deck. I held bob in my hand game 1 at 6 life. Post SB I still didnt stand a chance.
Game 3 vs R/W/G Zoo aggro variant. very few of the cards we have in this variant kill their creatures outside of lightning bolt and their bloodrush guy is rough. I won one game because he drew 5 lands in a row but he still got me below 10 life. Loxodon Smiter can't be countered.
I dropped after Game 3
All in all this version has problems
-the mana base is too greedy: 20 lands is too few and the amount of life we pay for shocks and fetches makes us uber weak against any aggro/burn
-too much snapcaster without enough mana to take full advantage. Opposing deathrite shamans make this even worse.
-Deathrite shaman is okay (winning one game) but often he was a 1/2 mana dork - rarely had enough mana to ping and stay active against opposing threats.
- cryptic command is good, often had mana issues and couldn't play it when I needed it most.
Only drew bob twcei out of all the games. I am sure this was part of the failure...
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Staticaster seems pretty popular, but why not also give Sulfur Elemental a look?
Here's a list I'm currently testing, for reference:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet
3 Remand
3 Rise//Fall
3 Shadow of Doubt (Flex slot)
2 Dismember
3 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
1 Blood Crypt
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
As you can see, it's a more aggressive, burn-heavy variant. Still working out the manabase so I can run Blood Moon in the sideboard. Possible sideboard choices also include: Slaughter Games, Sowing Salt for combo and Tron, Hurkyl's Racall or Smash to Smithereens or Shattering Spree for Affinity, Counterflux, Relic of Progenitus, and Pithing Needle amongst others. I'm testing Deathrite Shaman in the main over Grim Lavamancer, and so far I'm liking it despite not being able to use DS's green ability. Shadow of Doubt is in my flex slot for fetchland disruption (plus MD Scapeshift hate as a bonus) that cantrips. I'll also be testing Trickbind in that slot, as it will disrupt Geist of Saint Traft for a turn in the UWR matchup in addition to killing fetches.
I can't make it to any Modern events for a while, and I've been more focused on my Legacy decks lately anyway, so I figured I may as well put up what I have for you guys to work with if you want.
Sulfur Elemental looks superior!
I have a few questions about your list.
1) How do you find having 3 colors of 1-drop (deathrite, delver, guide). How do you find guide in general in this shell
2) How is shadow of doubt performing? It seems like a reasonable 2-for-1 much of the time.
3) Your list seems pretty tuned to creature matchups, how are you faring vs. combo and control?
1) Currently, it doesn't appear to be problematic. I'll usually drop a Guide or a Shaman turn 1, then turn 2 or 3 drop Delver, depending on what I have in hand and what I dropped turn 1. With 8 fetches, I'm not seeing a much problem getting the mana I need early on.
2) Shadow of Doubt forces me to be a bit reactionary on turns 2 and 3, and that's if they crack a fetch. Against a deck like Jund, that's not really a problem. Against something like Tron or Exarch Twin (especially the Snapcaster tempo variant), I don't see it paying off for me as much.
3) The list is oriented to be more aggro-control in nature, and I'm running the burn suite for removal most of the time. What I like about this burn suite is the damage racing I can do with it. If I'm in burn range, I can just win that way. Considering how creature-heavy Modern is these days, having a good burn suite alongside Dismember seems a natural option to me. Regarding combo, I haven't had a chance to test it vs. Pod or Exarch Twin yet (although I am an Exarch Twin player and originally put Slaughter Games in the sb for the Twin matchup), but that's why I like Slaughter Games so much in the sideboard alongside Pithing Needle. I did test an early version of this deck against old Storm, and the matchup was favorable for me; that version also ran Izzet Charm in the flex slot, though, so take it as you will. I think the hand disruption plus the counterspell suite should slow down Modern combo decks. Post-board, I feel the matchups improve with the presence of Slaughter Games and Pithing Needle, and also Sowing Salt for the Scapeshift matchup.
I haven't tested that card in my list. Currently the list is very tight with the creature spots I have filled. 4x Dark Confidant, 4x Delver of Secrets, 2x Vendilion Clique, 3x Snapcaster mage are my "shell" which leaves me with replacing either 3x Vexing Devil, 1x Sedraxis Specter, or instants/sorceries. Personally I do not feel like Izzet Staticaster has a place MB for this deck. It is tough to justify that 3-drop which is pretty situational and has 0 attack. In the sideboard I might rather have electrickery (a true blowout as a 3 drop which counts for snapcaster and delver) or electrolyze which provides draw and is a possible 3-for-1.
I know this wasnt directed at me but I have experience her that I can share as well. I think Sulfur elemental is a very strong sideboard card that I just put in the "buy these soon" category. This card is also insanely good against soul sisters (man I wish people would stop playing that deck). here is a link to my list for reference: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9911837&postcount=56
1) I used to run deathrite shaman in my deck but found that I usually needed the mana that I would use to do damage with this nifty creature open for remands or other spells in my bag of tricks. IMO deathrite is a stretch for this deck and I have much more synergy with Rise // Fall and Vexing Devil so I opted for that combination of cards instead. To more directly answer your question I have also never had issues with mana (CML) on T1 with my 1-drops: Serum Visions, Vexing Devil, Inquisition of Kozilek, Delver of Secrets.
2) I tried Shadow of doubt very briefly and see it as a sideboard card that is good against many decks, but sometimes can be sub-optimal MB. Here is a link to the discussion I use for reference on Shadow of Doubt: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=449972
3) My list does have a decent amount of burn in it (Vexing Devil gives a lot of reach also) but not nearly as much as Barracuda's List. I really Like Barracuda's List for his resistance to creature decks. I went with more of a one deck has a good matchup against most strategy when building. Dismember, Electrolyze, and Cryptic Command are cards I have tested but have found to be too costly in the life/mana department. Also, they increase the chance of taking a ton of damage from dark confidant especially absent 4x Serum Visions for deck manipulation... In my experience cheaper spells work better with this deck - more synergy and better tempo. Dark Confidant can really shine in this deck and offers insane card advantage that wins games for me all the time. Having a variety of spells to deal with different situations and a draw engine like that is tough to pass up.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
1) Early on I end up just using Deathrite Shaman as a mana dork, and maybe to get a ping in here or there. If he survives long enough, he's pretty good when I'm trying to deal the last bit of damage for the kill. Vexing Devil is a neat option.
2) Shadow of Doubt is pretty much something I've been trying out in an attempt to find a modern card that can be as useful as Stifle is in Legacy. It may be a doomed quest, but it can't hurt to try.
3) Dark Confidant is awesome, but I really want access to 3 and 4 cc cards that make the combo matchup better for me, so instead I've just worked in that most stuff scrys, cantrips, or takes away card advantage from the opponent.
This looks interesting. I want to try it.
Has anyone explored this list?...
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/25737-Dont-Call-It-A-Comeback-Although-At-This-Point-It-Probably-Is-The-Best-Modern-Deck-You-Arent-Playing.html
A comic about the world's most addictive game, Magic: The Gathering.
I think anyone interested in playing this deck should read this article. I switched up my list quite a bit after reading it. I still think you get more value out of a vexing devil package with Rise // Fall than with 4x Deathrite Shaman though. The GY removal DRS offers is relevant, however.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Vexing Devil
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Dark Confidant
2x Vendilion Clique
Instants (13):
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Magma Jet
4x Remand
2x Terminate
2x Cryptic Command
Sorceries (11):
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Rise // Fall
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Darkslick Shore
3x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Countersquall
2x Geth's Verdict
2x Rakdos Charm
1x Spell Pierce
3x Spell Snare
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Thoughtseize
1x Dreadbore
Some things I am still unsure about:
-Cryptic Command (is it worth the possible hit from Dark Confidant? Mana base issues?)
-Liliana of the Veil (vs Jace Beleren in the SB)
-Rakdos Charm (for utility vs other more efficient artifact hate)
-Snapcaster Mage (run 3 or 4? I have had experiences in the past where I drew two at the beginning of a game and had issues because of mana, I think more lands are needed to support 4)
-Sulfur Elemental (totally untested, but in theory a strong card against some of our worst matchups, has flash!)
I would optimally run a few more fetches and shocks but my meta has a ton of burn, so the damage from these land options is a bit much G1. I feel 2x thoughtseize MB is worth the risk because the other major archetype in my meta is Tron.
Thoughts?
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
- Cryptic Command in a deck with Bob makes me nervous. You do have Serum Visions to set up draws off of Bob, and that lone Magma Jet... I would run at least one more Magma Jet if you're going to keep Cryptic Command around. Otherwise, I would switch out Cryptic Command for 2x Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, or Spell Snare.
- Liliana of the Veil is definitely a better choice over any Jace in Modern.
- 3 looks like the right number for Snapcaster Mage in this deck. I completely agree that you would have to run more mana to support 4.
- Sulfur Elemental is beast against anything running Lingering Souls in Legacy, and UR & 'Murica players love using this card as a solution.
I'm testing the Zac Hill list barring a few cards I haven't found a good price on yet. The cryptics are not too much of a problem for casting, you really rip through your deck. I do think I'd prefer a magma jet in the slot he has for pillar of flame — functionally similar but fixes our topdecks.
It's far too intricate a deck for me to pilot well at the moment, I have to get a bunch of games in to make any real decisions. I'm going to just try to stick it out with the decisions Hill made, which I assume to be well-considered, until I feel my playskill is sufficient to make calls about it.
The article does break down the deck into "core" and "non-core" components, and he explains what is truly indispensable, so I think there is a lot of license to tweak the deck for your meta and play style.
Thanks for the advice! I have decided to go without the cryptic commands especially since I forgot that rise // fall counts as a Cmc of 4. I think I like spell snare in that spot for things like goyf, confidant, various spells in tron, and so much more. This also frees up 2 spots in the SB for 2 more magma jets I think.
Thoughts?
@ tfu. Please let us know how everything is working out as you get more into it. I have reported on some of my success with this play style in past posts. Unfortunately a lot of the more pricey cards are really important to the deck. Try it out on cockatrice
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I have been putting this all together on MODO since I wasn't aware of simple cockatrice options these days! How are you testing?
I haven't found 3x cryptic to be a big deal with the confidants. That particular interaction happens rarely enough and it's only 4. They are the card I am most happy to have in the deck, I wouldn't cut them. I find that that's when this variant "pulls away" — turn 4 or 5, you counter/draw, they have an empty board with maybe 1 threat left in hand while you have 4 cards of gas. They wonder how this happened
Then being able to snapcaster them late in the game is just unfair.
However in your burn-centric variant I think I might prefer to just never get to 6 lands and bringing back vexing devil is important.
Oh, and in general the deck is really sweet. I have never played a deck of this complexity and interactivity. I am testing at a low win rate compared to my previous deck (RDW) but I'm positive it's down to pilot error (I've been losing the mirror for instance) and I believe the claim that the deck has an outstanding shell.
The one change I'm considering would be something else to do during their turn if I leave up counter mana and they just pass — considering thought scour and izzet charm but both are underwhelming. I'm trying 2x vendilion clique main, maybe that will be enough.
I would try Magma Jet - if you don't use mana for countermagic then you can shoot something down or do 2 to the dome and possible set up your next 2 turns. Also great to use with Snapcaster early game. Vendilion clique works best at the end of opponent's draw step so not ideal at EOT after not using mana for countering stuff... I think Clique is necessary for this deck anyhow for beats and disruption.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Yep I think this sounds great. I do kind of want more 1cc instants because I find myself unable to use all my mana sometimes with all the 2cc spells in the deck. But magma jet is basically perfect esp. since I'm running delver.
I want you guys to have a look at this build im working on, i don't find Slots for everything i want. I have to abdicate of some spells, though im going to put it in a consideration list.
Something like this:
4 delver of secrets
4 dark confidant
2 oona's prowler
1 sedraxis specter
4 serum visions
3 terminate
4 lightning bolt
3 Mana Leak
3 Remand
2 spell pierce
3 rise/fall
Need to see a good manabase, creeping tar pit is a must have too.
Consideration list:
Taking out the prowlers and the specter and run 3 vexing devil?
Duress/inquisition of kozilek to back Up rise/fall discard package???
If i run a discard/distuption/protection package would be 7 Slots?
If so i need to change in order to have counterspells, removal and draw engines.
Electrolyze?
Cruel ultimatum as 1slot only worth it?
Smallpox?
Smother?
Dismember?
Gitaxian probe+a good disruption slot vs. Serum visions+dark confidant ?
Serum visions and dark confidant only has a main draw engine and Remand drawback?
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
In the Zac Hill variant you don't run out of cards that much. You sort of float at 3 or 4 even without a bob, since you're 2-for-1ing them all the time. I bet in the burn variant you run out of cards far more easily and can spend burn to get there if necessary.
Game 1 vs U/W Tron I won 2-0. This variant does very well against these types of decks with everything he did being countered or discarded.
Game 2 vs B/W/R Burn 0-2. This was a rough matchup - because of the the amount of fetches and shocks we need to run the deck. I held bob in my hand game 1 at 6 life. Post SB I still didnt stand a chance.
Game 3 vs R/W/G Zoo aggro variant. very few of the cards we have in this variant kill their creatures outside of lightning bolt and their bloodrush guy is rough. I won one game because he drew 5 lands in a row but he still got me below 10 life. Loxodon Smiter can't be countered.
I dropped after Game 3
All in all this version has problems
-the mana base is too greedy: 20 lands is too few and the amount of life we pay for shocks and fetches makes us uber weak against any aggro/burn
-too much snapcaster without enough mana to take full advantage. Opposing deathrite shamans make this even worse.
-Deathrite shaman is okay (winning one game) but often he was a 1/2 mana dork - rarely had enough mana to ping and stay active against opposing threats.
- cryptic command is good, often had mana issues and couldn't play it when I needed it most.
Only drew bob twcei out of all the games. I am sure this was part of the failure...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague