Historically, Lavamancer has been run alongside Goyf in Legacy to help you win the Goyf wars (similar to Noble Hierarch, and both have a sweet secondary effect on their own). Lavamancer, while somewhat anti-synergistic with Snapcaster, shouldn't be much of an issue to use if you are smart about choosing your targets (prioritize lands and creatures first, dead cards second, etc.). I think there are a number of creatures you want to run in a deck like this, the main four being Tiago, Goyf, Lavamancer, and V. Clique. I'd run something similar to the following:
This is just a theory based list. I'm not really a fan of Firespout anymore, to be honest. Only bad Zoo players will overcommit to the board so heavily where Firespout is incredibly relevant. Usually, your spot removal and cheap countermagic should be enough to get you through to the end-game and keep the board clean. Most of the deck already operates at Instant-speed. You shouldn't ever have to tap out with this build, unless it's for turn 1 Lavamancer (which isn't that great of a play, anyways). I do think I want more Spell Snares in the maindeck, but I'm sure I could cram some in the sideboard.
The only difference between your list and mine is (basically) that I have 4 Delver of Secrets. That guy is awesome. He flips easy. He is a great chump/removal eater. He also is a clock. I recommend you try this list with him.
I am still on the fence about Cryptic Command. If I have the mana and time to Cryptic then I am winning anyway, right? It is also nigh impossible to flashback with Snapcaster Mage, and again if I have that amount of mana and haven't died, then I am winning.
I would cut the Cryptics and 1 V.Clique, and a Lavamancer from your list and try out the Delvers.
I also believe that 24 is too many lands and that could be how you squeeze in more Snares..
The only difference between your list and mine is (basically) that I have 4 Delver of Secrets. That guy is awesome. He flips easy. He is a great chump/removal eater. He also is a clock. I recommend you try this list with him.
I have fiddled with Delver in the past. I am mostly unsure of his place in this format because of the lack of good filter and library stacking a la Brainstorm or Ponder. I will give him a couple more shots, though, most likely.
I also believe that 24 is too many lands and that could be how you squeeze in more Snares..
Legacy RUG runs about 20 lands, if I am not mistaken. I believe Chain addressed that this week. The reason you run so few is twofold: you have a low curve and your spells are individually weaker than your opponent's, so you need more of them. I might cut to 22 Landau and throw in the last pair of Snares. Or I might go to 20 and spring on Telling Time or Think Twice. I feel like I want some filter of some kind, especially if I am running Delver.
This is what I have been fooling around with. I want more control and combo trumps though...
BTW: Legacy RUG runs 18(!) land
Yeah, 18 is nowhere near enough without Brainstorm. Also, how is Magma Jet testing? Seems kinda... meh, I guess is the word I'm looking for. I also feel like Trickbind mainboard would be a huge deal.
Yeah, 18 is nowhere near enough without Brainstorm. Also, how is Magma Jet testing? Seems kinda... meh, I guess is the word I'm looking for. I also feel like Trickbind mainboard would be a huge deal.
I like Magma Jet. It is essentially the same kind of removal in this deck as Punishing Fire, except it filters instead of recur. It helps me trade Delvers for Goyfs and such. Otherwise it packs the deck with more burn to throw at your opponent as a finisher...The scry is mostly what it is for, however.
I agree with Trickbind MD except it is still too narrow. I was trying out Voidslime for utility sake. I'll let y'all know what I find.
I like your new list Mr. Milliken. Surgical Extraction was something I was thinking about. I wish it were memoricide though, but I do not want to put more color in this deck.
Keep it coming guys and (to :nike:) I will post some vids later.
I like Magma Jet. It is essentially the same kind of removal in this deck as Punishing Fire, except it filters instead of recur. It helps me trade Delvers for Goyfs and such. Otherwise it packs the deck with more burn to throw at your opponent as a finisher...The scry is mostly what it is for, however.
I agree with Trickbind MD except it is still too narrow. I was trying out Voidslime for utility sake. I'll let y'all know what I find.
I like your new list Mr. Milliken. Surgical Extraction was something I was thinking about. I wish it were memoricide though, but I do not want to put more color in this deck.
Keep it coming guys and (to :nike:) I will post some vids later.
How has your record been with it so far? Find any bad matchups yet?
How has your record been with it so far? Find any bad matchups yet?
I have been winning a good percentage of my matchups. A lot of it is because people don't know what I am doing and they severly underestimate Delver (protip: he is our Nacatl).:o
I am good against "Zoo" in general, although Jund can be a little more rough. Affinity is a ****ing nightmare if they nut draw (suppose that is true for any deck though), otherwise it is manageable.
Mono Red burn (yes, it is a real deck) is pretty good against us as well.
I also have a problem with some midrange GBx Rock decks. Their disruption is cheap and hard to keep up with. It sucks in this matchup because when you feel like you are winning, they cast a Kitchen Finks and screw up my math. Kitchen Finks is pretty good against us. I haven't played the Pod decks with him, but I bet Melira Combo is rough for us as well...
I haven't faced Twin, but I am sure it is a tempo race just like other decks. That is why I like Trickbind and Krosan Grip in the SB.
Vedalken Shackles is also a pretty good stall tactic against us, but it is not unmanageable.
I have been winning a good percentage of my matchups. A lot of it is because people don't know what I am doing and they severly underestimate Delver (protip: he is our Nacatl).:o
I am good against "Zoo" in general, although Jund can be a little more rough. Affinity is a ****ing nightmare if they nut draw, otherwise it is manageable.
I also have a problem with some midrange GBx Rock decks. Their disruption is cheap and hard to keep up with. It sucks in this matchup because when you feel like you are winning, they cast a Kitchen Finks and screw up my math. Kitchen Finks is pretty good against us. I haven't played the Pod decks with him, but I bet Melira Combo is rough for us as well...
I haven't faced Twin, but I am sure it is a tempo race just like other decks. That is why I like Trickbind and Krosan Grip in the SB.
Vedalken Shackles is also a pretty good stall tactic against us, but it is not unmanageable.
You?
I haven't gotten to test at all, I'm still trying to afford the deck on Magic Online. Testing on the free ones like MWS is bad for me, I always play against people who don't know how to play.
My matches I played with the original version were Allies, B/G Rock, and B/R Vampires. The 1 game I lost with the deck was to B/G Rock which I built for the person playing it, and the hate from the sideboard was excessive for my deck.
I haven't gotten to test at all, I'm still trying to afford the deck on Magic Online. Testing on the free ones like MWS is bad for me, I always play against people who don't know how to play.
My matches I played with the original version were Allies, B/G Rock, and B/R Vampires. The 1 game I lost with the deck was to B/G Rock which I built for the person playing it, and the hate from the sideboard was excessive for my deck.
Absolutely agree. Black has pretty good tools against us, which is why I have emphasized more burn in the deck. We kind of have to play like a burn deck against them, where each of our cards has to deal 3 damage and quickly. Otherwise they screw up our tempo (and that is not good for a tempo deck).
Someone mentioned earlier about how Firespout wasn't good any more. While I don't think we should run without some sweeper in the SB at the very least, I can agree that it has almost no place in the MD anymore because people are expecting it from us and won't walk their guys into a sweeper if they are worth a damn as a player. Between good block/trades, Bolt, Fire/Grove, we should be able to keep the board clean enough to at least race most decks.
Going into a blind metagame, I think it is fair to say that BG rock is probably a bad matchup. Do we go bigger or try to find stuff to mitigate the match up?
You are joshmilliken on MTGO, right? I will add buddy.
@ MWS- C'mon. Nick Spagnolo tests on MWS. He's good, right
I'm joshmilliken2001 on MTGO. I'm on a lot, usually playing Standard.
I think hitting 2+ guys is generally worth it to run Firespout. We have to have a way to deal with a fast draw from any aggro deck, and that will be a good portion of the field.
I'll test with friends on MWS, but joining matches with people I don't know just doesn't do it for me.
I'm joshmilliken2001 on MTGO. I'm on a lot, usually playing Standard.
I think hitting 2+ guys is generally worth it to run Firespout. We have to have a way to deal with a fast draw from any aggro deck, and that will be a good portion of the field.
I'll test with friends on MWS, but joining matches with people I don't know just doesn't do it for me.
Not to mention that people on MWS are turd x 1000s compared to the people who QQ on MTGO.
Seriously, people on MTGO QQ a lot. But the MWS crowd is like visiting day care. Stinky diapers and *****ing about your "netdeck".
I'll add you josh, plus I need people to test standard with too.
Maindeck Flame Slash and Threads...man, he's really preparing for an aggro meta, isn't he?
If you can't beat aggro pre-board then you shouldn't be playing the deck in the format. And aggro will be more than 50% of the meta, so putting most of your anti aggro cards main makes sense.
I am trying something similar but RUW instead of RUG due to not owning Goyf. I'm finding it doesn't put quite as much pressure but deals with creatures better by gaining Path and Lightning Helix.
I plan on switching the sprites for cliques as soon as I can get them and the mana base needs tweaking but any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
I am trying something similar but RUW instead of RUG due to not owning Goyf. I'm finding it doesn't put quite as much pressure but deals with creatures better by gaining Path and Lightning Helix.
I plan on switching the sprites for cliques as soon as I can get them and the mana base needs tweaking but any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
This list was doing pretty well against me last night...
I wan wondering where the V. Cliques were. Also, the fact that you have access to three of the best removal spells makes me think you want Snapcaster in there.
I am trying something similar but RUW instead of RUG due to not owning Goyf. I'm finding it doesn't put quite as much pressure but deals with creatures better by gaining Path and Lightning Helix.
I plan on switching the sprites for cliques as soon as I can get them and the mana base needs tweaking but any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
You definitely need a backup plan besides your creatures, the creatures you have are all killable by punishing fire. Something with at least 3 toughness is a must or you're just going to lose to just about everything. Maybe some planeswalkers instead of Cryptic Command.
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The only difference between your list and mine is (basically) that I have 4 Delver of Secrets. That guy is awesome. He flips easy. He is a great chump/removal eater. He also is a clock. I recommend you try this list with him.
I am still on the fence about Cryptic Command. If I have the mana and time to Cryptic then I am winning anyway, right? It is also nigh impossible to flashback with Snapcaster Mage, and again if I have that amount of mana and haven't died, then I am winning.
I would cut the Cryptics and 1 V.Clique, and a Lavamancer from your list and try out the Delvers.
I also believe that 24 is too many lands and that could be how you squeeze in more Snares..
Still making videos from my 2-man sessions.
I have fiddled with Delver in the past. I am mostly unsure of his place in this format because of the lack of good filter and library stacking a la Brainstorm or Ponder. I will give him a couple more shots, though, most likely.
Legacy RUG runs about 20 lands, if I am not mistaken. I believe Chain addressed that this week. The reason you run so few is twofold: you have a low curve and your spells are individually weaker than your opponent's, so you need more of them. I might cut to 22 Landau and throw in the last pair of Snares. Or I might go to 20 and spring on Telling Time or Think Twice. I feel like I want some filter of some kind, especially if I am running Delver.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
2 Cascade Bluffs (prolly cutting these for Sulfur Falls)
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
20 Land
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
14 Creatures
2 Firespout
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
3 Punishing Fire
2 Remand
3 Repeal
4 Serum Visions
3 Magma Jet
27 Spells
2 Hurkyls Recall
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Krosan Grip
3 Jace Beleren
1 Firespout
3 Trickbind
This is what I have been fooling around with. I want more control and combo trumps though...
BTW: Legacy RUG runs 18(!) land
2 Breeding Pool
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
2 Repeal
4 Mana Leak
4 Punishing Fire
2 Remand
3 Magma Jet
2 Firespout
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spell Pierce
1 Repeal
3 Nature's Claim
1 Firespout
2 Jace Beleren
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Surgical Extraction
Yeah, 18 is nowhere near enough without Brainstorm. Also, how is Magma Jet testing? Seems kinda... meh, I guess is the word I'm looking for. I also feel like Trickbind mainboard would be a huge deal.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
I like Magma Jet. It is essentially the same kind of removal in this deck as Punishing Fire, except it filters instead of recur. It helps me trade Delvers for Goyfs and such. Otherwise it packs the deck with more burn to throw at your opponent as a finisher...The scry is mostly what it is for, however.
I agree with Trickbind MD except it is still too narrow. I was trying out Voidslime for utility sake. I'll let y'all know what I find.
I like your new list Mr. Milliken. Surgical Extraction was something I was thinking about. I wish it were memoricide though, but I do not want to put more color in this deck.
Keep it coming guys and (to :nike:) I will post some vids later.
How has your record been with it so far? Find any bad matchups yet?
I have been winning a good percentage of my matchups. A lot of it is because people don't know what I am doing and they severly underestimate Delver (protip: he is our Nacatl).:o
I am good against "Zoo" in general, although Jund can be a little more rough. Affinity is a ****ing nightmare if they nut draw (suppose that is true for any deck though), otherwise it is manageable.
Mono Red burn (yes, it is a real deck) is pretty good against us as well.
I also have a problem with some midrange GBx Rock decks. Their disruption is cheap and hard to keep up with. It sucks in this matchup because when you feel like you are winning, they cast a Kitchen Finks and screw up my math. Kitchen Finks is pretty good against us. I haven't played the Pod decks with him, but I bet Melira Combo is rough for us as well...
I haven't faced Twin, but I am sure it is a tempo race just like other decks. That is why I like Trickbind and Krosan Grip in the SB.
Vedalken Shackles is also a pretty good stall tactic against us, but it is not unmanageable.
You?
I haven't gotten to test at all, I'm still trying to afford the deck on Magic Online. Testing on the free ones like MWS is bad for me, I always play against people who don't know how to play.
My matches I played with the original version were Allies, B/G Rock, and B/R Vampires. The 1 game I lost with the deck was to B/G Rock which I built for the person playing it, and the hate from the sideboard was excessive for my deck.
Absolutely agree. Black has pretty good tools against us, which is why I have emphasized more burn in the deck. We kind of have to play like a burn deck against them, where each of our cards has to deal 3 damage and quickly. Otherwise they screw up our tempo (and that is not good for a tempo deck).
Someone mentioned earlier about how Firespout wasn't good any more. While I don't think we should run without some sweeper in the SB at the very least, I can agree that it has almost no place in the MD anymore because people are expecting it from us and won't walk their guys into a sweeper if they are worth a damn as a player. Between good block/trades, Bolt, Fire/Grove, we should be able to keep the board clean enough to at least race most decks.
Going into a blind metagame, I think it is fair to say that BG rock is probably a bad matchup. Do we go bigger or try to find stuff to mitigate the match up?
You are joshmilliken on MTGO, right? I will add buddy.
@ MWS- C'mon. Nick Spagnolo tests on MWS. He's good, right
I think hitting 2+ guys is generally worth it to run Firespout. We have to have a way to deal with a fast draw from any aggro deck, and that will be a good portion of the field.
I'll test with friends on MWS, but joining matches with people I don't know just doesn't do it for me.
Not to mention that people on MWS are turd x 1000s compared to the people who QQ on MTGO.
Seriously, people on MTGO QQ a lot. But the MWS crowd is like visiting day care. Stinky diapers and *****ing about your "netdeck".
I'll add you josh, plus I need people to test standard with too.
1 Flooded Grove
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Forest
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Punishing Fire
1 Spell Pierce
4 Spell Snare
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Flame Slash
4 Serum Visions
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Dispel
1 Nature's Claim
1 Firespout
2 Flame Slash
1 Life from the Loam
1 Tectonic Edge
If you can't beat aggro pre-board then you shouldn't be playing the deck in the format. And aggro will be more than 50% of the meta, so putting most of your anti aggro cards main makes sense.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Serum Visions
4 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Trickbind
4 Cryptic Command
I plan on switching the sprites for cliques as soon as I can get them and the mana base needs tweaking but any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
This list was doing pretty well against me last night...
I wan wondering where the V. Cliques were. Also, the fact that you have access to three of the best removal spells makes me think you want Snapcaster in there.
Nice List.
You definitely need a backup plan besides your creatures, the creatures you have are all killable by punishing fire. Something with at least 3 toughness is a must or you're just going to lose to just about everything. Maybe some planeswalkers instead of Cryptic Command.
2 Cascade Bluffs
1 Forest
1 Hinterland Harbor
5 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Burst Lightning
2 Cryptic Command
2 Deprive
2 Flame Slash
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Threads of Disloyalty
I was just about to post that for yall.
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