The exalted land is a decent idea, but Black gives me access to another evasive creature (Plague Stinger), which is very important in getting damage through as fast as possible.
Re: Miracle cards- I have enough reliable pump, and no peeking spells, so it makes little sense take those cards out and add in unreliable cards. The point of this deck is to give my opponent 10 poison counters by turn 3-4 as consistently as possible, and adding in cards that decrease that consistency seems counter productive.
If I don't run that I might rework the mana base for UBG and get Plague Stinger on board, but Thrummer is doing fine. Since I am not seeing pump as much as I would like it would often do me no good to have an infect flier anyway.
Simian Spirit Guide: I am really torn on this. It did save me a couple times, but that was only when I mulled in to a poor hand and got poor draws, so it never really allowed for a quick Agent. Then again, it was rarely a dead card either. If I yoink it I will add more pump probably, and maybe another land. Twenty-one land count is pretty reliable if you have good lands and you have SSG for emergencies, but without the monkey ghost I would worry about bad beginnings too often.
Plague Myr: I am not hot on this little bot. It is not fast, is not evasive, and the mana rarely does more than fuel Inkmoth, and even that is just for comfort. I have yet to get much infect out of him, so I am tempted to replace it with a real mana-dork (BoP, or Hierarch), or Icky Claw.
I'm working on a UGb mana base based on the deck Vampire Nighthawk linked. That deck is running an aweful lot of pain (City of Brass) but he's 4 colors. You can run Verdant Catacombs to pick up Breeding Pool, of course Misty Rainforest can get Overgrown Tomb so either way.
I do like having basics which is why I don't want to be in red for Assault Strobe, plus using Mutagenic Growth can start to burn as well.
I'm trying Ichorclaw over Plague Myr. You can put a dork in front of Plague Myr and trade without pump, but you just chump Ichorclaw. That means he gets through more often than not.
Cathedral of War seems interesting, but I don't know if the mana base can support it as taxed as it is. Is it better than Pendlehaven other than stacking?
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I'm working on a UGb mana base based on the deck Vampire Nighthawk linked. That deck is running an aweful lot of pain (City of Brass) but he's 4 colors. You can run Verdant Catacombs to pick up Breeding Pool, of course Misty Rainforest can get Overgrown Tomb so either way.
LOL, that is a very old version of the deck I was mulling over there- I have since moved over to GUB (see post from 6-18) fully and have almost no problems with my mana base now.
I think I will try the exalted land when it comes out, and put it in my Ghost Quarter slot so as not to mess things up. The idea is to get this deck fast enough that there is really not any point in Ghost Quarter, so that will not be too much of a loss.
Rancor > Groundswell > Mutagenic Growth >> Vines of Vastwood > Might of Old Krosa
These are just my opinions. I did lose to the turn1 Glistener Elf, turn2 hierarch swing 2 poison, turn3 might of old krosa x3 swing 14 poison. But sorcery-speed pump just seems awful.
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Quote from ClockworkSwordfish »
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
Has anybody thought of Double Cleave in here? Groundswell + Double Cleave on any infect creature that gets through is GG. For what it's worth, that's a 3 card combo, much the same as Blazing Shoal / Dragonstorm / Infect creature, with the only difference being that it costs 3 mana instead of being free.
New Ajani doesn't seem terrible either as a non 1-shot effect.
And fwiw, the new exalted land is still inferior to simply playing Pendelhaven, which can actually tap for mana turn 1.
Rancor > Groundswell > Mutagenic Growth >> Vines of Vastwood > Might of Old Krosa
These are just my opinions. I did lose to the turn1 Glistener Elf, turn2 hierarch swing 2 poison, turn3 might of old krosa x3 swing 14 poison. But sorcery-speed pump just seems awful.
Also, IMO, Blighted Agent > Inkmoth Nexus = Glistener Elf >> Ichorclaw Myr = Plague Stinger >>>>>>>>>>>> Virulent Sliver. Virulent Sliver will never put more than 1 poison counter on an opponent a turn no matter how much it gets pumped. Ichorclaw Myr vs. Plague Stinger seems meta-dependent on how much Affinity and Caw-Blade there is. And the fact that Blighted Agent is unblockable has been absolutely phenomenal in testing.
So is U/G infect the way to go? I can still say Blighted agent is solid. But Rancor really seems to change things. I used to run 3 Distortion Strike but they will become rancor. I still like Gitaxian Probe but Rancor really changes things now.
So is U/G infect the way to go? I can still say Blighted agent is solid. But Rancor really seems to change things. I used to run 3 Distortion Strike but they will become rancor. I still like Gitaxian Probe but Rancor really changes things now.
Well, you know my position...I prefer to have as many evasive creatures with infect as possible, so that means dipping in to black. Black also give access to instant removal to sweep away blockers for those creatures that do not have evasion.
Rancor > Groundswell > Mutagenic Growth >> Vines of Vastwood > Might of Old Krosa
These are just my opinions. I did lose to the turn1 Glistener Elf, turn2 hierarch swing 2 poison, turn3 might of old krosa x3 swing 14 poison. But sorcery-speed pump just seems awful.
Vines of Vastwood is key for saving your dudes from targeted removal. I'd put it ahead of Mutagenic Growth in importance. This deck has trouble reloading, so saving what you've got has to be part of the main strategy.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Well, you know my position...I prefer to have as many evasive creatures with infect as possible, so that means dipping in to black. Black also give access to instant removal to sweep away blockers for those creatures that do not have evasion.
Why is Inkmoth Nexus even on that list? It is a land, so it is not like it takes up a creature slot Virulent Sliver is awful.
I need help understanding why this deck runs 12-16 creatures. The Sam Black deck that top 4'd (running no less than 12 banned cards) only ran 4 creatures and 4 Inkmoth. I agree that Glistener Elf is worth 4 slots, but I don't see why I'd ever want to run more than 8 creatures. Isn't Disrupting Shoal/Pact of Negation/Muddle the Mixture just better than running Ichorclaws and Plague Stingers?
EDIT: Also, how good is Tracker's Instinct in this deck? Seems like you'd run out of creatures sometimes and being able to reload would be useful.
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
I don't really see having room for it. You've got 16-18 potential creatures plus nexus. How are you running out? (I can see if you're cutting creatures, but wouldn't you just play more)
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I don't really see having room for it. You've got 16-18 potential creatures plus nexus. How are you running out? (I can see if you're cutting creatures, but wouldn't you just play more)
I feel like you either play cards like rancor and might of old krosa and disruption (protect one guy) or you play cards like giant growth and mutagenic growth and a bunch of guys (fast swarm). And I feel like the first plan is the better one.
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Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
I need help understanding why this deck runs 12-16 creatures. The Sam Black deck that top 4'd (running no less than 12 banned cards) only ran 4 creatures and 4 Inkmoth. I agree that Glistener Elf is worth 4 slots, but I don't see why I'd ever want to run more than 8 creatures. Isn't Disrupting Shoal/Pact of Negation/Muddle the Mixture just better than running Ichorclaws and Plague Stingers?
This is very much an aggro deck that relies on quick, reliable, creature drops and quick, reliable, pump. I have not seen the deck you are talking about, but this deck (at least mine) is not based on it, and I think basing a deck on it would be a bad idea for several reasons, not the least being that it contained 12 banned cards. I run a little control in my build, but most don't- preferring to go balls to the wall aggro.
Disrupting Shoal: I have yet to see a top deck using this card (though I have not looked at lists seriously for a couple months), but it would need to be in a majorly blue deck. Pact of Negation: This is a card for "I will win for sure next turn" plays, and this deck can be disrupted fairly easily- which is why we go for quantity where quality is not available. Muddle the Mixture: Aside from me, no one runs 3cc cards.
I am not sure that a control infect build is the direction to go for best results, but even there I like (and have worked on) a Black control shell with a splash of green, over a blue shell.
Sure looks like 2cc to me...good at countering removal and tutoring for unblockable dudes...
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Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
Sure looks like 2cc to me...good at countering removal and tutoring for unblockable dudes...
Blarg...sorry. It is even a fav. piece of tech for me in other decks.
It is worth a thought for my deck style. Right now I run Remand, which as a counter works well as I am really trying to win fast, so the idea that I am just bouncing something is not too big a hit, and it is early game so it is less likely that they can recast it. The draw helps too, but does not help my CA if I can't cast it for some reason- which is where MtM would come in handy. That said it's UU cost is daunting, and I am not sure we have the leeway to time walk ourselves to fetch a Swinger. It is worth thinking about at least.
I was just putting some cards away, and ran across something that might be great for this deck. I know we have Rancor on the way, but what about Unstable Mutation? It is cheap to cast and gives a big boost, though the downsides are obvious, I wonder if this deck doesn't care. This is a short game deck, and will probably be owned past turn 4 or so, so it could probably handle it.
The question is what would come out in it's place? Not Rancor to be sure, and this has the inherent weaknesses of all enchantments so you might be loath to drop an instant boost for this.
Probably not gonna work, but I might mess around with it for a while.
I guess if you need the extra point of pump Unstable can work for you. The nice thing is that it does give you long term power/toughness boost (meaning a couple turns of course).
Regarding the debate about Ichorclaw Myr.. Rancor makes him a LOT better. The big problem with non evasive creatures is that you have to answer stuff like Wall of Omens or Goyf. Time you're done pumping Goyf could be 3/4 or something which keeps you from 1 shotting them.
Edit:
Deck Tech posted this up today. It's standard but it should be adaptable:
We obviously have better color access, better spells et, but the deck is such low casting cost that it seems portable.
Obviously Ponder has to go, Mental Misstep has to go. Perhaps White to fetch a sword package to go with Runechanters Pike. Swords make Blighted Agent Better.
Or we could just keep the Rancor package since its cheaper.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I've seen lists like this before in the Modern Dailies (do you happen to be PepperLips on MTGO?), so I suppose it's decent.
I'm not sure how consistent Groundswell is in 23-land Infect Pump lists--if it's always +4/+4, then keep it. Otherwise, I'd lower the numbers for more Might of Old Krosas (still the cheapest and most consistent raw temporary pump spell).
Keep the Vines of Vastwood numbers--lure removal with other pump spells (especially Rancor--it makes others' trigger fingers really itchy) and keep that puppy in hand to protect and pump your Infect dudes. Screwing with Exarch Twin's head with Vines targeting their creatures is a plus.
@ Lectrys Groundswell is awesome if you run fetches. I stole a game against Jund showing lethal on the board on a topdecked Groundswell with an uncracked Misty Rainforest. The only critter I could keep on the board was Inkmoth Nexus due to an active Liliana.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I'm mainly cynical about Groundswell because I run a 17-18 land list (this includes the Inkmoth Nexuses) right now. I don't get Landfall for far too many turns with that land count, and when I do, Groundswell almost becomes Might of Old Krosa with that all-in feeling. I run 5-6 fetchlands and I still often don't get Landfall.
23 lands may say another story about Groundswell, though, and Groundswell is still one of the best pump spells in Modern. (I'd boot Mutagenic Growth from my 20 pump spells build first.)
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Some funny thoughts about Infect builds now: Pendelhaven just got worse because Rancor is now Modern-legal (and it's awesome in this deck), but Glistener Elf just got better because Rancor is now Modern-legal.
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Re: Miracle cards- I have enough reliable pump, and no peeking spells, so it makes little sense take those cards out and add in unreliable cards. The point of this deck is to give my opponent 10 poison counters by turn 3-4 as consistently as possible, and adding in cards that decrease that consistency seems counter productive.
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I'm working on a UGb mana base based on the deck Vampire Nighthawk linked. That deck is running an aweful lot of pain (City of Brass) but he's 4 colors. You can run Verdant Catacombs to pick up Breeding Pool, of course Misty Rainforest can get Overgrown Tomb so either way.
I do like having basics which is why I don't want to be in red for Assault Strobe, plus using Mutagenic Growth can start to burn as well.
I'm trying Ichorclaw over Plague Myr. You can put a dork in front of Plague Myr and trade without pump, but you just chump Ichorclaw. That means he gets through more often than not.
Cathedral of War seems interesting, but I don't know if the mana base can support it as taxed as it is. Is it better than Pendlehaven other than stacking?
I think I will try the exalted land when it comes out, and put it in my Ghost Quarter slot so as not to mess things up. The idea is to get this deck fast enough that there is really not any point in Ghost Quarter, so that will not be too much of a loss.
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Rancor > Groundswell > Mutagenic Growth >> Vines of Vastwood > Might of Old Krosa
These are just my opinions. I did lose to the turn1 Glistener Elf, turn2 hierarch swing 2 poison, turn3 might of old krosa x3 swing 14 poison. But sorcery-speed pump just seems awful.
New Ajani doesn't seem terrible either as a non 1-shot effect.
And fwiw, the new exalted land is still inferior to simply playing Pendelhaven, which can actually tap for mana turn 1.
I find Vines of Vastwood to be fairly good if games drag on long enough. Bait removal with Might of Old Krosa or Rancor first.
Also, IMO, Blighted Agent > Inkmoth Nexus = Glistener Elf >> Ichorclaw Myr = Plague Stinger >>>>>>>>>>>> Virulent Sliver. Virulent Sliver will never put more than 1 poison counter on an opponent a turn no matter how much it gets pumped. Ichorclaw Myr vs. Plague Stinger seems meta-dependent on how much Affinity and Caw-Blade there is. And the fact that Blighted Agent is unblockable has been absolutely phenomenal in testing.
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Why is Inkmoth Nexus even on that list? It is a land, so it is not like it takes up a creature slot Virulent Sliver is awful.
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Vines of Vastwood is key for saving your dudes from targeted removal. I'd put it ahead of Mutagenic Growth in importance. This deck has trouble reloading, so saving what you've got has to be part of the main strategy.
I need help understanding why this deck runs 12-16 creatures. The Sam Black deck that top 4'd (running no less than 12 banned cards) only ran 4 creatures and 4 Inkmoth. I agree that Glistener Elf is worth 4 slots, but I don't see why I'd ever want to run more than 8 creatures. Isn't Disrupting Shoal/Pact of Negation/Muddle the Mixture just better than running Ichorclaws and Plague Stingers?
EDIT: Also, how good is Tracker's Instinct in this deck? Seems like you'd run out of creatures sometimes and being able to reload would be useful.
I feel like you either play cards like rancor and might of old krosa and disruption (protect one guy) or you play cards like giant growth and mutagenic growth and a bunch of guys (fast swarm). And I feel like the first plan is the better one.
Disrupting Shoal: I have yet to see a top deck using this card (though I have not looked at lists seriously for a couple months), but it would need to be in a majorly blue deck.
Pact of Negation: This is a card for "I will win for sure next turn" plays, and this deck can be disrupted fairly easily- which is why we go for quantity where quality is not available.
Muddle the Mixture: Aside from me, no one runs 3cc cards.
I am not sure that a control infect build is the direction to go for best results, but even there I like (and have worked on) a Black control shell with a splash of green, over a blue shell.
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Sure looks like 2cc to me...good at countering removal and tutoring for unblockable dudes...
It is worth a thought for my deck style. Right now I run Remand, which as a counter works well as I am really trying to win fast, so the idea that I am just bouncing something is not too big a hit, and it is early game so it is less likely that they can recast it. The draw helps too, but does not help my CA if I can't cast it for some reason- which is where MtM would come in handy. That said it's UU cost is daunting, and I am not sure we have the leeway to time walk ourselves to fetch a Swinger. It is worth thinking about at least.
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The question is what would come out in it's place? Not Rancor to be sure, and this has the inherent weaknesses of all enchantments so you might be loath to drop an instant boost for this.
Probably not gonna work, but I might mess around with it for a while.
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Regarding the debate about Ichorclaw Myr.. Rancor makes him a LOT better. The big problem with non evasive creatures is that you have to answer stuff like Wall of Omens or Goyf. Time you're done pumping Goyf could be 3/4 or something which keeps you from 1 shotting them.
Edit:
Deck Tech posted this up today. It's standard but it should be adaptable:
15 Island
2 Blighted Agent
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Gut Shot
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Ponder
4 Runechanter's Pike
1 Silver-Inlaid Dagger
4 Thought Scour
4 Vapor Snag
2 Blighted Agent
3 Mana Leak
4 Mental Misstep
4 Phantasmal Image
2 Spellskite
We obviously have better color access, better spells et, but the deck is such low casting cost that it seems portable.
Obviously Ponder has to go, Mental Misstep has to go. Perhaps White to fetch a sword package to go with Runechanters Pike. Swords make Blighted Agent Better.
Or we could just keep the Rancor package since its cheaper.
I'm not sure how consistent Groundswell is in 23-land Infect Pump lists--if it's always +4/+4, then keep it. Otherwise, I'd lower the numbers for more Might of Old Krosas (still the cheapest and most consistent raw temporary pump spell).
Keep the Vines of Vastwood numbers--lure removal with other pump spells (especially Rancor--it makes others' trigger fingers really itchy) and keep that puppy in hand to protect and pump your Infect dudes. Screwing with Exarch Twin's head with Vines targeting their creatures is a plus.
@ Lectrys Groundswell is awesome if you run fetches. I stole a game against Jund showing lethal on the board on a topdecked Groundswell with an uncracked Misty Rainforest. The only critter I could keep on the board was Inkmoth Nexus due to an active Liliana.
23 lands may say another story about Groundswell, though, and Groundswell is still one of the best pump spells in Modern. (I'd boot Mutagenic Growth from my 20 pump spells build first.)
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Some funny thoughts about Infect builds now: Pendelhaven just got worse because Rancor is now Modern-legal (and it's awesome in this deck), but Glistener Elf just got better because Rancor is now Modern-legal.