I don't like apostle's blessing that much and I prefer main deck spellskite instead. jund is quite luck dependant. if you mull 6 and still don't have a nice hand it is nearly an autoloss. I am not pretty sure about might of old krosa vs jund. I board in 2 relic of progenitus which gives a turn to find a card we need and stopping death rite shaman, lingering souls and tarmogoyf. by the way if you have one infect creature in your opening hand and if you wait to play it later you will be overwhelmed by spirit tokens, tarmo or dark confident. I am also not sure about thoughtseize because I start the game with 12 life when I usually cast it. inquisition is better against jund in my opinion because you should hit a liliana or a denial.
i am also considering to play 2 deathrite shaman instead of 2 relic of progenitus which can ramp us, survive us another turn and disrupt opponent. I need to test
I don't like apostle's blessing that much and I prefer main deck spellskite instead. jund is quite luck dependant. if you mull 6 and still don't have a nice hand it is nearly an autoloss. I am not pretty sure about might of old krosa vs jund. I board in 2 relic of progenitus which gives a turn to find a card we need and stopping death rite shaman, lingering souls and tarmogoyf. by the way if you have one infect creature in your opening hand and if you wait to play it later you will be overwhelmed by spirit tokens, tarmo or dark confident. I am also not sure about thoughtseize because I start the game with 12 life when I usually cast it. inquisition is better against jund in my opinion because you should hit a liliana or a denial.
All you people having problems with jund need to reread the primer. My list is 66% against jund, I love facing that deck. You need to value your creatures against jund, hands with one infecter against a deck with discard are bad. Distortion strike is your MVP against jund, you want to use that or apostles blessing to get through for the kill. Cutting MD blessing for spellskite is just awful, first off skite is going to be dead/unnecessary against many decks game one, secondly apostle's blessing/distortion strike are how you beat jund affinity uw flash and pod. Getting through blockers is as important as protecting your threats.distortion strike answers the problem of deathrite, goyf, and souls. I really don't understand how you guys are losing to those cards. NEVER keep in discard against jund it is ONLY there for the combo matches. This is a combo deck and the second you start playing a hrindy midrange game against decks built for the mid to late game you've lost the match.
it is just brutal when they thoughtseize your vines of vastwood then abrupt decay your spellskite and bolt your elf and play lilliana next turn. 4 bolts 2 abrupt decays 2-3 lillianas 2 terminates with 5-6 discard backups are pretty solid against infect. also when they attack with spirit tokens and leave a spirit and tarmogoyf for block, apostle's blessing is useless. this matchup turns into a midrange fight most of the time. also, usually i win in two turns or slowly instead of making a combo against any deck. i would prefer the 3rd distortion strike in main than apostle's blessing in short. and spellskite is a blocker that saves a lot of damage with protecting your creatures. also it is brutal against the new aura deck
I can see boarding in the spellskites for jund but not the d strike. VS jund the only target for d stike are the elves. The other creatures are already unblockable against jund. It still seems to me that vines, blessing and inkmoths are the key to winning the jund matchup.
Thus far I have been siding in more discard vs jund hoping to get their removal. The light went on after reading your commnet about being dragged into a midrange/end game struggle. We aren't really build for end game. That change alone should help out with the matchup.
The removal aspect of the game is what wrecks us vs jund. Running 4 rancors ensures trample over spirit tokens isn't much of an issue. I'd rather see spirit tokens on the board than a terminate at my creature most of the time.
I can see your point if a goyf is on the board though. It is usually too big to get around and they will normally tap out to cast one...perfect time for d strike.
I'll try d strike a few more times...who knows it may convert me eventually. I trust your opinions...that is why I follow this board. It seems the +2 with trample is better than +1 with unblockable. But then again the strategy I am using doesn't work too well vs jund right now so time for a strategy shift.
It's too narrow. It's a virtual blank if you don't Miracle it, and even if you do it might be on a turn when you don't have any creatures out or you are sure your opponent has removal. In order to play this deck well you need to go off at the right time, which probably isn't the turn you drew your Miracle.
it is just brutal when they thoughtseize your vines of vastwood then abrupt decay your spellskite and bolt your elf and play lilliana next turn. 4 bolts 2 abrupt decays 2-3 lillianas 2 terminates with 5-6 discard backups are pretty solid against infect. also when they attack with spirit tokens and leave a spirit and tarmogoyf for block, apostle's blessing is useless. this matchup turns into a midrange fight most of the time. also, usually i win in two turns or slowly instead of making a combo against any deck. i would prefer the 3rd distortion strike in main than apostle's blessing in short. and spellskite is a blocker that saves a lot of damage with protecting your creatures. also it is brutal against the new aura deck
Yes when they completely sac out its bad. That's like saying it's rough when we t1 elf t2 kill them.....obviously? Also inkmoth nexus gets around Lilly, don't forget that. Discard is terrible here and blessings is also am extra vines so cutting that for d strike is wrong. You're telling me you're having issues with jund then telling me you stand by your sb plans. Clearly you're doing something wrong, Ben Feingersh played 4 jund decks on his way to 15th at Toronto and only lost to one. His loss involved a distortion strike misplay when he had win on board. Pretty sure the deck is fine against jund, jund can always just "do jund" and kill people randomly but this deck beats everything but the bestnof hands from jund.
Went 2-2 the last daily. Losing most matches to the shuffler...mulliganing 4 land hands into 1 land hands. I was able to pull off a t2 kill with a five card hand once.
One match that sticks in my mind...hive mind. You really need thoughtseize for this match up. I had a first turn IoK and pulled their removal but noticed hive mind in hand. They casted a mana spell turn 3 and got off the hive mind. I like IoK but knowing you needed a better spell in a certain situation or you lose kind of smacked me in the mouth.
Hopefully I can 3-1 a few of the next few. I'm upgrading to thoughtseize ASAP.
Does the hexproof green meanies feel like a bye or what. Match me up against that deck any time
First off, thanks for the primer, I love it.
But just a quick question, why board out the blessings for abrupt decays against tron? It seems ike blessing is nice to deal with pyroclasm and I don't see any signifcant targets for decay. Thanks a lot
Question; How does infect play around B/W tokens. In practice games, I went 0-4 because I could never find an answer.
Distortion strike and using apostles blessing to get through for the win.
I bring in abrupt decay against tron because hitting spellskite is ncessary and hitting ostone or expedition map can be very good some times. Blessing is not needed since every pump spell in the deck blanks clasm.
If burn is boarding skites start boarding in some abrupt decay, lets you kill vexing devils and goblin guides too.
I bring in abrupt decay against tron because hitting spellskite is ncessary and hitting ostone or expedition map can be very good some times. Blessing is not needed since every pump spell in the deck blanks clasm.
Ya that makes sense about the tron matchup. I think its a pretty easy matchup in general anyways, so not too important.
I piloted a version very similar to chags's version yesterday at a PTQ and went 5-3, with 2 losses to r/w/u delver and 1 loss to u/w angels. I beat jund, tron, rdw, some weird ad nauseum combo and second breakfast, incase you were wondering, but I mainly wanted to make this post to analyze the r/w/u and u/w matchups. I found that it was really difficult for the deck to beat r/w/u delver because it runs so much removal (lightning helix, lightning bolt, path to exile, electrolyze and snapcaster mage makes like 15-20+ removal spells in the deck, or atleast the ones that I was playing against). Is there any specific way you have about beating r/w/u delver? I was thinking after that maybe it would be smart to wait to cast creatures until you have protection then blow them out when they tap out to kill your dudes, but since their removal spells cost 1-2, they can potentially have 2-3 in one turn which makes it tough. Spellskite helps to eat the bolts, but if they have path, it just gets rid of him easily. I was thinking of actually running 2-3 wild defiance in the sideboard (maybe even mainboard depending on the meta) to blank the burn. The main concern with this card is its slowness at 3 mana, but I feel like this matchup is a slow one anyways, unless of course you blow them up on turn 3. What do you think about this or what other ways do you have to deal with r/w/u delver? Also, I lost both games of the u/w match to Gideon Jura. My opponent made it impossible to attack him with gideon's +2 and slowly killed my dudes then me. Maybe the best way to deal with gideon is to just kill him with pump spells, but the exalted triggers are shut off with multiple dudes attacking and once gideon is dead, you would likely have no pump spells left. Not to mention that your opponent is likely to stabilize by the time you kill Gideon. Obviously winning before turn 5 is good, but sometimes its not easy. What do you think about dealing with Gideon? Thanks a lot for reading/answering this long question and also for this primer in general. Overall, I loved the deck and was actually pleased with its performance yesterday b/c I don't really know what I could've done differently in those matchups to win, but maybe you could help me out for next time.
Also, I lost both games of the u/w match to Gideon Jura. My opponent made it impossible to attack him with gideon's +2 and slowly killed my dudes then me.What do you think about dealing with Gideon?
I run 2 Maelstrom Pulse sideboard to deal with Gideon Jura. Of course you can catch it with Thoughtseize, but I like having a way to remove it if I miss.
I run 2 Maelstrom Pulse sideboard to deal with Gideon Jura. Of course you can catch it with Thoughtseize, but I like having a way to remove it if I miss.
Oh ya, thanks a lot. I didn't think of pulse. I guess I'm gonna try to pick a few of those up then haha.
EDIT:
I just thought of pithing needle as another way to deal with Gideon Jura. Not sure if its worth it, but its definitely possible i think.
Depending on who you ask it is prolly safe to say the match-up is even. If you draw an inkmoth with some pump and protection it is hard for jund to beat.
Wondering if the primer needs matchups added? I have ran this deck vs a lot different matchups...most of which we play the beat down. I have noticed we have to play the control role vs RDW to have a chance. Anyway a matchup section might be nice.
I played vs living end this weekend. One thing I noticed is you have to kill them turn 2 or 3...or hold back a critter to play after living end. I was fortunate that they played the cascade spell during my attach. I could play an agent during my second main. They weren't able to do lethal damage on their turn so the agent came in for the remaining poinson counters the next turn to finish them.
I typically play only one infect creature at a time just in case of a wipe. It is nice when you can drop an inkmoth and a creature the same turn. You pretty much know one of them is going to attack next turn.
Matchups would be handy, I have all the cards for this deck except for verdant catacombs so i'm thinking of building this deck :). Thanks for the response
So looking at Gatecrash it seems there are two good additions to this deck. The first is Slaughterhorn. In this deck it's an uncounterable pump spell that's immune to Spellskite. That makes it a serious contender for the 'extra' pump slots after 4x Might, Groundswell, and Vines. The second card is Illness In the Ranks. Lingering Souls simply isn't a problem with this card, and it also prevents a Twin player from using Exarch or Pestermite to go off. This card deseves several slots in every Infect player's sideboard, at least until the meta shifts and token producers become less common because of it.
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2 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Pendelhaven
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Plague Stinger
2 Spellskite
2 Distortion Strike
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Groundswell
4 Might of Old Krosa
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
1 Distortion Strike
3 Nature's Claim
2 Spellskite
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Aposthe's Blessing
2 Relic of Progenitus
And i will board in 2 spellskite 2 inquisition of kozilek and 1 relic of progenitus 1 distortion strike against jund while boarding out 4 might of old krosa 2 abrupt decay
i am also considering to play 2 deathrite shaman instead of 2 relic of progenitus which can ramp us, survive us another turn and disrupt opponent. I need to test
All you people having problems with jund need to reread the primer. My list is 66% against jund, I love facing that deck. You need to value your creatures against jund, hands with one infecter against a deck with discard are bad. Distortion strike is your MVP against jund, you want to use that or apostles blessing to get through for the kill. Cutting MD blessing for spellskite is just awful, first off skite is going to be dead/unnecessary against many decks game one, secondly apostle's blessing/distortion strike are how you beat jund affinity uw flash and pod. Getting through blockers is as important as protecting your threats.distortion strike answers the problem of deathrite, goyf, and souls. I really don't understand how you guys are losing to those cards. NEVER keep in discard against jund it is ONLY there for the combo matches. This is a combo deck and the second you start playing a hrindy midrange game against decks built for the mid to late game you've lost the match.
Thus far I have been siding in more discard vs jund hoping to get their removal. The light went on after reading your commnet about being dragged into a midrange/end game struggle. We aren't really build for end game. That change alone should help out with the matchup.
I can see your point if a goyf is on the board though. It is usually too big to get around and they will normally tap out to cast one...perfect time for d strike.
I'll try d strike a few more times...who knows it may convert me eventually. I trust your opinions...that is why I follow this board. It seems the +2 with trample is better than +1 with unblockable. But then again the strategy I am using doesn't work too well vs jund right now so time for a strategy shift.
Yes when they completely sac out its bad. That's like saying it's rough when we t1 elf t2 kill them.....obviously? Also inkmoth nexus gets around Lilly, don't forget that. Discard is terrible here and blessings is also am extra vines so cutting that for d strike is wrong. You're telling me you're having issues with jund then telling me you stand by your sb plans. Clearly you're doing something wrong, Ben Feingersh played 4 jund decks on his way to 15th at Toronto and only lost to one. His loss involved a distortion strike misplay when he had win on board. Pretty sure the deck is fine against jund, jund can always just "do jund" and kill people randomly but this deck beats everything but the bestnof hands from jund.
One match that sticks in my mind...hive mind. You really need thoughtseize for this match up. I had a first turn IoK and pulled their removal but noticed hive mind in hand. They casted a mana spell turn 3 and got off the hive mind. I like IoK but knowing you needed a better spell in a certain situation or you lose kind of smacked me in the mouth.
Hopefully I can 3-1 a few of the next few. I'm upgrading to thoughtseize ASAP.
Does the hexproof green meanies feel like a bye or what. Match me up against that deck any time
But just a quick question, why board out the blessings for abrupt decays against tron? It seems ike blessing is nice to deal with pyroclasm and I don't see any signifcant targets for decay. Thanks a lot
Distortion strike and using apostles blessing to get through for the win.
I bring in abrupt decay against tron because hitting spellskite is ncessary and hitting ostone or expedition map can be very good some times. Blessing is not needed since every pump spell in the deck blanks clasm.
If burn is boarding skites start boarding in some abrupt decay, lets you kill vexing devils and goblin guides too.
Ya that makes sense about the tron matchup. I think its a pretty easy matchup in general anyways, so not too important.
I piloted a version very similar to chags's version yesterday at a PTQ and went 5-3, with 2 losses to r/w/u delver and 1 loss to u/w angels. I beat jund, tron, rdw, some weird ad nauseum combo and second breakfast, incase you were wondering, but I mainly wanted to make this post to analyze the r/w/u and u/w matchups. I found that it was really difficult for the deck to beat r/w/u delver because it runs so much removal (lightning helix, lightning bolt, path to exile, electrolyze and snapcaster mage makes like 15-20+ removal spells in the deck, or atleast the ones that I was playing against). Is there any specific way you have about beating r/w/u delver? I was thinking after that maybe it would be smart to wait to cast creatures until you have protection then blow them out when they tap out to kill your dudes, but since their removal spells cost 1-2, they can potentially have 2-3 in one turn which makes it tough. Spellskite helps to eat the bolts, but if they have path, it just gets rid of him easily. I was thinking of actually running 2-3 wild defiance in the sideboard (maybe even mainboard depending on the meta) to blank the burn. The main concern with this card is its slowness at 3 mana, but I feel like this matchup is a slow one anyways, unless of course you blow them up on turn 3. What do you think about this or what other ways do you have to deal with r/w/u delver? Also, I lost both games of the u/w match to Gideon Jura. My opponent made it impossible to attack him with gideon's +2 and slowly killed my dudes then me. Maybe the best way to deal with gideon is to just kill him with pump spells, but the exalted triggers are shut off with multiple dudes attacking and once gideon is dead, you would likely have no pump spells left. Not to mention that your opponent is likely to stabilize by the time you kill Gideon. Obviously winning before turn 5 is good, but sometimes its not easy. What do you think about dealing with Gideon? Thanks a lot for reading/answering this long question and also for this primer in general. Overall, I loved the deck and was actually pleased with its performance yesterday b/c I don't really know what I could've done differently in those matchups to win, but maybe you could help me out for next time.
-Plasticbag25
I run 2 Maelstrom Pulse sideboard to deal with Gideon Jura. Of course you can catch it with Thoughtseize, but I like having a way to remove it if I miss.
Oh ya, thanks a lot. I didn't think of pulse. I guess I'm gonna try to pick a few of those up then haha.
EDIT:
I just thought of pithing needle as another way to deal with Gideon Jura. Not sure if its worth it, but its definitely possible i think.
Wondering if the primer needs matchups added? I have ran this deck vs a lot different matchups...most of which we play the beat down. I have noticed we have to play the control role vs RDW to have a chance. Anyway a matchup section might be nice.
I played vs living end this weekend. One thing I noticed is you have to kill them turn 2 or 3...or hold back a critter to play after living end. I was fortunate that they played the cascade spell during my attach. I could play an agent during my second main. They weren't able to do lethal damage on their turn so the agent came in for the remaining poinson counters the next turn to finish them.
I typically play only one infect creature at a time just in case of a wipe. It is nice when you can drop an inkmoth and a creature the same turn. You pretty much know one of them is going to attack next turn.