Wouldn't it be theasible to add the nourishing shoal package to the furry version? Chances are pretty good that in 21 draws you get either furry combo a couple times or dig into shoal package allowing to draw another 7. The main issue that deck had was running out of life to dig deep enough for that furry.
Sure you could, but you have to make the space for them, which are usually Wurm and Shoal, so you need 8 slots, which are pretty hard to find in that version.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hmm, I wasn't aware there was an optimal amount of G spells to be playing for Shoal, but you're right. I have had a dead one or two when I could have been splicing. I'll trust you, and put my Manamorphose back in.
As for the Time of Need replacement, what about something along the lines of Deadshot Minotaur, or Explore? The former actually slots into that Grixis list, if that were needed.
Im a bit confused by the going off at instant speed with borbor. Don't you first need a grisel in play to draw enough cards to use borbor for flinging lands? The Fury version you can still goryo/breach on the opponents EOT and win as well. To not win through the combat step, you'd have to use the grisel draw to get enough lands to fling, correct?
I will explain a normal Instant win against Twin e.g.
You are otd and you have a Goryos in Hand with a Griselbrand in the Grave. EOT he casts Pestermite and you are expecting, that he wins next turn. So you go for it (3 Lands in play for you). You cast Goryos, targeting Grisel. You now draw 14 cards (which should be no problem, since the deck doesn't deal that much damage to itself that often). You are looking for a Shoal, Wurm, SSG and a Desperate Ritual in those 14 cards (ideal Scenario). You found those or some parts for it (like not the Desperate Ritual). If you find all of them (best case), you exile SSG, cast Shoal by pitching Wurm and splice Desperate Ritual on it. You gain 11 life and RRR. Now you are looking for either Shoal+Wurm+Breach+Borbor or SSG+Borbor if you have allready 6-7 lands in hand. If you have no Wurm and no Borbor in your hand, that's the moment where it gets tricky. You basically Shoal pitch Morphose splice Desperate Ritual at that point. This should allow you to draw another 7 cards, if you have started with 16 or more life. Now you should have find either a Borbor+Breach or another Shoal with Wurm. To Fizzle here is pretty unrealistic, since you either found the Borbor in 35 draws or another Shoal which would allow you to draw the rest of the deck (watch out, it can happen, that you deck yourself, so counter after the fourth activation from Grisel, how many cards are left in the bib).
I hope, you understand now.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Yeah thats exactly how I figured it worked, that you needed the grisel for the draws, which means it takes more mana to win then just a straight fury win. Essentially more cards too for the combo, just don't need to win via combat phase. Its definitely more complicated than the fury version, but at least a path doesn't blow you out. I'm going to test it with fury included and see how that goes.
edit: tested 2 game so far, won both. Using shoal to dig with a grisel out and swinging again with fury is awesome. Much easier than previous fury versions. I was able to do the splice into borbor play one turn, did it just cuz I could, but I could also just have kept swinginng with griselbrand. So far liking it, will keep testing.
Also had a game where I won t2 through a remand. had 2 goryos in hand, and 2 ssg. had pitched grisel turn 1. turn 2 saw he had 2 mana up, had a crypt in played. fetched for a overgrown, putting me at 14. exiled an ssg and tapped a land to play goryo, he remaned. I exiled other ssg and tapped other land. Even if it was a hard counter I still had the second goryo. Then went off with fury and shoal package.
Has anyone tested tormenting voice over nights whisper? I may try that to help have some more self discard since I have found myself searching for faithless sometimes. I also use fury so upping the red card count helps and then I could cut down on the black sources.
I'm about 55/45 in favor of Whisper at this point. Sometimes the ability to discard is clutch, when I can't get a Faithless or there's a Chalice on 1 or whatever. Sometimes I just don't have anything I want to discard, like holding a Breach, a bomb, and a Voice, and needing one more land to cast Breach.... Sometimes the 2 life on Whisper is really painful. More than once I've used the fact that Whispers actually nets 1 card in hand to get me to 8 to discard a bomb (which I could also have done with voice, I suppose).
I may end up with a 3/2 split, rather than my current 4/1, but I definitely would not recommend running only Voice.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hmm, I wasn't aware there was an optimal amount of G spells to be playing for Shoal, but you're right. I have had a dead one or two when I could have been splicing. I'll trust you, and put my Manamorphose back in.
As for the Time of Need replacement, what about something along the lines of Deadshot Minotaur, or Explore? The former actually slots into that Grixis list, if that were needed.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
You are otd and you have a Goryos in Hand with a Griselbrand in the Grave. EOT he casts Pestermite and you are expecting, that he wins next turn. So you go for it (3 Lands in play for you). You cast Goryos, targeting Grisel. You now draw 14 cards (which should be no problem, since the deck doesn't deal that much damage to itself that often). You are looking for a Shoal, Wurm, SSG and a Desperate Ritual in those 14 cards (ideal Scenario). You found those or some parts for it (like not the Desperate Ritual). If you find all of them (best case), you exile SSG, cast Shoal by pitching Wurm and splice Desperate Ritual on it. You gain 11 life and RRR. Now you are looking for either Shoal+Wurm+Breach+Borbor or SSG+Borbor if you have allready 6-7 lands in hand. If you have no Wurm and no Borbor in your hand, that's the moment where it gets tricky. You basically Shoal pitch Morphose splice Desperate Ritual at that point. This should allow you to draw another 7 cards, if you have started with 16 or more life. Now you should have find either a Borbor+Breach or another Shoal with Wurm. To Fizzle here is pretty unrealistic, since you either found the Borbor in 35 draws or another Shoal which would allow you to draw the rest of the deck (watch out, it can happen, that you deck yourself, so counter after the fourth activation from Grisel, how many cards are left in the bib).
I hope, you understand now.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
edit: tested 2 game so far, won both. Using shoal to dig with a grisel out and swinging again with fury is awesome. Much easier than previous fury versions. I was able to do the splice into borbor play one turn, did it just cuz I could, but I could also just have kept swinginng with griselbrand. So far liking it, will keep testing.
Also had a game where I won t2 through a remand. had 2 goryos in hand, and 2 ssg. had pitched grisel turn 1. turn 2 saw he had 2 mana up, had a crypt in played. fetched for a overgrown, putting me at 14. exiled an ssg and tapped a land to play goryo, he remaned. I exiled other ssg and tapped other land. Even if it was a hard counter I still had the second goryo. Then went off with fury and shoal package.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
I'm about 55/45 in favor of Whisper at this point. Sometimes the ability to discard is clutch, when I can't get a Faithless or there's a Chalice on 1 or whatever. Sometimes I just don't have anything I want to discard, like holding a Breach, a bomb, and a Voice, and needing one more land to cast Breach.... Sometimes the 2 life on Whisper is really painful. More than once I've used the fact that Whispers actually nets 1 card in hand to get me to 8 to discard a bomb (which I could also have done with voice, I suppose).
I may end up with a 3/2 split, rather than my current 4/1, but I definitely would not recommend running only Voice.
Yes, no lifegain, but still able to trigger Shoal
Link to cubetutor:
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/10113
Continue the Griselbrand discussion here!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/599726-griselbrand-reanimator