--Peer Through Depth ... provide to dig 5 cards for instant or sorcery.U can search for Goryo's vengeance and Through the Breach.And all of that 3 spells are arcane type.
--Thirst for Knowledge ... provide new three cards and discard 2 cards (act like discard outlet)
if u design to spash green.., Fauna Shaman is very interesting.
Well the particular build that was being discussed was very specific to the cheap dig spells it abused to pull all of the pieces together. I'll brainstorm and come up with a new list that is less reliant on a single reanimation target and spell.
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I am running this version - Preordain + Serum Visions...guess what. Just as awesome. And utilizing Jin-gitaxias, Oona's Prowler, and Zombie Infestation.
It was pretty strong, but I ran into a few weaknesses, namely:
Countermagic- this deck does not do very well against counterspells. You would think it does with the 9 MD hand disrpution (4 TS, 2 Duress, 3 Clique), but for some reason quite a few of the Twin matchups just had them. One guy even had 2 Disrupting Shoals against me one game. Seriously. They.ALWAYS.****ING.HAD IT. Not sure how to shore up on this, but to just try to be more patient...
Merfolk.They play Aether Vial and have counterspells. Not to mention they are quick, so there realy is not time to durdle.
I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion on how to shore up on this or do we just auto lose these matchups. Post SB doesn't make things much better...
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so after the bannings i sat own for a few hours to brew(well it was actually brewing during school rather than listening to certain teachers blabber) and brewed up a similar deck. it has a few large differences but so i was going to post a new thread but decided against it.
the thing i like most about the green splash is the interaction of LftL with the rest of the deck. it enables random turn 3 emrakuls and crap like that, but it also makes raven's crime (reccurable discard outlet that iss also deadly along side loam when used targeting opponents) and worm harvest to give another wincon. green also gives goyf and pulse to fight off pretty much everything.
i was really surprized to not see forbidden alchemy in any of the decks so far its like wotc's gift to the few grave based decks left.
at this point i'm just fiddling with numbers since my endless testing to make sure this deck isn't just a fluke have been a success. still wondering on adding in gifts ungiven or tossing the blue legends back in for fun tricks. i also really want space for more jin gitaxius becasue reanimating it at the end of the opponents turn, ripping their hand, then draw 7 is just so absurd for 2 mana...
Not sure about a green splash. I am not poo-poo'ing entirely as I thought the same thing. Giving you access to Goyf is nothing to shake a stick at, Maelstrom Pulse is a welcome addition (Putrefy too), and Life from the Loam and Worm Harvest seem interesting.
The deck is already pretty midrangey-controllish. Jamming good cards in from another midrange deck might make this lose consistency. I think that Forbidden Alchemy may shore up on this deck's distinct lack of draw power, but at what cost.
I think that since we are discussing rotation, that I was considering Snapcaster Mage for obvious reasons.
I do think your deck is an interesting take, but I guess color me somewhat skeptical. I feel like this deck is pretty consistent, but it has problem matchups. Namely Twin and Merfolk. I just want to try and shore up on these without adding other colors if possible.
I was just thinking of ading a couple of off color blue duals (ie Breeding Pool, Steam Vents, Hallowed Fountain) and Engineered Explosives for quick creature aggro decks. This doesn't help the Twin MU though...
I'll keep checking back. Let me know how this develops for you and I'll keep posting my findings.
It was pretty strong, but I ran into a few weaknesses, namely:
Countermagic- this deck does not do very well against counterspells. You would think it does with the 9 MD hand disrpution (4 TS, 2 Duress, 3 Clique), but for some reason quite a few of the Twin matchups just had them. One guy even had 2 Disrupting Shoals against me one game. Seriously. They.ALWAYS.****ING.HAD IT. Not sure how to shore up on this, but to just try to be more patient...
Merfolk.They play Aether Vial and have counterspells. Not to mention they are quick, so there realy is not time to durdle.
I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion on how to shore up on this or do we just auto lose these matchups. Post SB doesn't make things much better...
Ok. You're having a numbers crisis which is clogging up your slots for your own countermagic. First, cut singleton Venser. He's great, but serves no purpose. Second, cut 1 Jin-Gitxias, 1 Makeshift Mannequin, 1 Thoughtseize, and both Duress. That opens up 6 slots for you, and the goal here is to have cheap answers for speedy decks. Add 2 Inquisition of Kozilek, 3 Spell Pierce, and 1 Spell Snare. Those changes should help shore up any and all aggro match-ups you're having problems with, as well as having maindeck answers for control.
Personally, I'd find a way to add a couple more dig cards to the deck, but your slots are a bit tight.
@Numotflame96: Change Enclave Cryptologist to Looter il-Kor, cut singelton Worm Harvest, 2 Makeshift Mannequin, and 1 Maelstrom Pulse...then add 4 1cmc draw spells. Your deck will reward you for that.
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so after the bannings i sat own for a few hours to brew(well it was actually brewing during school rather than listening to certain teachers blabber) and brewed up a similar deck. it has a few large differences but so i was going to post a new thread but decided against it.
the thing i like most about the green splash is the interaction of LftL with the rest of the deck. it enables random turn 3 emrakuls and crap like that, but it also makes raven's crime (reccurable discard outlet that iss also deadly along side loam when used targeting opponents) and worm harvest to give another wincon. green also gives goyf and pulse to fight off pretty much everything.
i was really surprized to not see forbidden alchemy in any of the decks so far its like wotc's gift to the few grave based decks left.
at this point i'm just fiddling with numbers since my endless testing to make sure this deck isn't just a fluke have been a success. still wondering on adding in gifts ungiven or tossing the blue legends back in for fun tricks. i also really want space for more jin gitaxius becasue reanimating it at the end of the opponents turn, ripping their hand, then draw 7 is just so absurd for 2 mana...
I see ur splash green.But why I don't see the powerful green card such as commune with nature , Time of need and Fauna Shaman.
Another one I prefer zombie infestation or Oona prowler over enclave cryptologist. Coz they can provide the discard action immediately its touch the field but enclave cannot and risk for removal.
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i'm going to cut cryptologist but not for il kor. it has the same problem of not having immediate effect. i'm thinking either bonded fetch or thirst for knowledge. they are both slower but i slower better than getting nothing due to the card getting nuked. the worm harvest is deffinitly staying in since it protects from things that stop emrakul from winning the game from just making it so i can't win. the other option would be to run zombie infestation which is a possibility that is looking very nice, but i like the fact that worm harvest works well with loam and works well when it is milled. 1 cmc draw spells dont really exite me gien the new bannings. they all just seem subpar. i might try remand in those spots however.
i'm going to cut cryptologist but not for il kor. it has the same problem of not having immediate effect. i'm thinking either bonded fetch or thirst for knowledge. they are both slower but i slower better than getting nothing due to the card getting nuked. the worm harvest is deffinitly staying in since it protects from things that stop emrakul from winning the game from just making it so i can't win. the other option would be to run zombie infestation which is a possibility that is looking very nice, but i like the fact that worm harvest works well with loam and works well when it is milled. 1 cmc draw spells dont really exite me gien the new bannings. they all just seem subpar. i might try remand in those spots however.
You have to consider your curve, though. If you want to stay 2 or less on the discard outlet, Oona's Prowler (or Zombie Infestation I guess) is the best method, plain and simple. Having to pay the extra mana into Cryptologist slows you down too much. 1cmc draw spells give you something to do on turn 1 to either shore up your opener, or stack your deck for the next 2 turns. Speed...Is...Everything in modern, and nothing that can fix an average or bad draw is ever subpar. Do not run anymore 3cmc dig spells with Forbidden Alchemy in the deck.
Also, Maelstrom Pulse maindeck isn't nearly as good as it used to be now that storm decks have been nerfed, and it's otherwise only good against Zoo sometimes. Instant speed answers are better.
But in all seriousness, Looter il-Kor is just your best option if you're not going to run Prowler, since it's not always going to die, and you need that extra damage pre-Emrakul so they actually die when you hit them. Annihilator 6 doesn't always make people scoop. It is the BEST looter in Magic.
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Ok. You're having a numbers crisis which is clogging up your slots for your own countermagic. First, cut singleton Venser. He's great, but serves no purpose. Second, cut 1 Jin-Gitxias, 1 Makeshift Mannequin, 1 Thoughtseize, and both Duress. That opens up 6 slots for you, and the goal here is to have cheap answers for speedy decks. Add 2 Inquisition of Kozilek, 3 Spell Pierce, and 1 Spell Snare. Those changes should help shore up any and all aggro match-ups you're having problems with, as well as having maindeck answers for control.
Personally, I'd find a way to add a couple more dig cards to the deck, but your slots are a bit tight.
@Numotflame96: Change Enclave Cryptologist to Looter il-Kor, cut singelton Worm Harvest, 2 Makeshift Mannequin, and 1 Maelstrom Pulse...then add 4 1cmc draw spells. Your deck will reward you for that.
Thanks for this....
I had tried some other configurations, but they weren't working very well.
I like Inquisition in this format better than Duress anyhow, so thanks for the reassurance...
Venser is the slowest and weakest card in the deck....gladly cut him for a miser Spell Snare
Spell Pierce is pretty insane in this format too...
I changed smother in the SB for Agony Warp...it has served me well against the likes of Merfolk, but it makes me worse against Goyf.
So it seems that you are having me become less midrange and more control, I can dig that. Thank you for your response.
Now, one quick aside about Venser:
He is essentially another "Remand" that doesn't say "counter target spell". He stops a lot of stuff.
He can bounce Emrakul. Not all the way relevant, but worth noting.
I understand your trying to hit the emrakul but Other "I win" reanimators are acceptable.
That's what Jin-Gitaxias is about for now. Nothing that's shown up is better. Magus is also a solid looter, but he has no power and missing your reanimation targets leaves your hand in tatters.
@apaulogy: Venser is a solid board option when you're not against Affinity/Zoo, I agree. He's just too slow otherwise in this deck. I am not a fan of Agony Warp in a format stuffed with Goyfs and KotRs, and Ravagers. I prefer just blowing them out of the water guaranteed, for less tricky mana. Also, glad to be of help (if I actually did, lol).
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That's what Jin-Gitaxias is about for now. Nothing that's shown up is better. Magus is also a solid looter, but he has no power and missing your reanimation targets leaves your hand in tatters.
@apaulogy: Venser is a solid board option when you're not against Affinity/Zoo, I agree. He's just too slow otherwise in this deck. I am not a fan of Agony Warp in a format stuffed with Goyfs and KotRs, and Ravagers. I prefer just blowing them out of the water guaranteed, for less tricky mana. Also, glad to be of help (if I actually did, lol).
oh no you did help, an d I agree with what you say...agony warp is smother again
lately i have been trying to make a more control type build of this...maybe it's not a good idea, but I have been running Rune Snag over Remand in my post ban testing, and it has been awesome to say "no" for real sometimes.
also, call me crazy, but I find I have to aggressively discard stuff to Zombie Infestation some times. I was thinking Bloodghast would be awesome sometimes because of all the fetch lands. again, probably filler crap we don't need.
the format seems to have slowed down with the exception of the affinity and zoo matches. I am not too worried about merfolk because it is kind of a bad aggro deck. I cut Serum Visions becuase I just hated it most of the time. I have started running baby Jace as a 3-of for right now and my deck is playing more like a proactive UB control deck with a potential combo.
The problem with that is that I am starting to be pretty underwhelmed by Oona's Prowler. I wonder also if I could get away with running Creeping Tar Pit because it seems like a decent plan c.
this is what I have been thinking, idk about you. felt like chimining that in.
oh no you did help, an d I agree with what you say...agony warp is smother again
lately i have been trying to make a more control type build of this...maybe it's not a good idea, but I have been running Rune Snag over Remand in my post ban testing, and it has been awesome to say "no" for real sometimes.
also, call me crazy, but I find I have to aggressively discard stuff to Zombie Infestation some times. I was thinking Bloodghast would be awesome sometimes because of all the fetch lands. again, probably filler crap we don't need.
the format seems to have slowed down with the exception of the affinity and zoo matches. I am not too worried about merfolk because it is kind of a bad aggro deck. I cut Serum Visions becuase I just hated it most of the time. I have started running baby Jace as a 3-of for right now and my deck is playing more like a proactive UB control deck with a potential combo.
The problem with that is that I am starting to be pretty underwhelmed by Oona's Prowler. I wonder also if I could get away with running Creeping Tar Pit because it seems like a decent plan c.
this is what I have been thinking, idk about you. felt like chimining that in.
Nothing wrong with Tar-pit, I just wouldn't ever mistake it for a win-con. It's an emergency swinger for plansewalker beating, mostly. Prowler isn't necessary if you start leaning heavily on control/combo. As long as you have at least 8 outlets for discard, you're fine.
No vanilla beaters required in this deck. Just find something that squeaks in that extra damage just in case annihilator 6 doesn't end the game, and go from there. That's the only reason I'm big a fan of Prowler and Looter il-Kor: Evasion + Outlet + Beats.
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I use to run a reanimator a long time ago in extended. I will give the same advice that was given to me.
Zombie Infestation is the best discard outlet for the deck. Nets you creatures while putting the big creatures in the yard. The card that wins games is Akroma, Angel of Wrath (Time Shifted) You ideally want this card out to win. The version I ran had 3 Akroma, Angel of Wrath. When I did get the turn 2 reanimate spell, the game was then done and over with.
The only problem with this that getting a turn one Zombie Infestation is difficult. Sure, turn two isn't bad, but with control having chance to build up now, it could become that much more of an issue. As for the creatures I have seen running in the decks, they look awesome.
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Well the particular build that was being discussed was very specific to the cheap dig spells it abused to pull all of the pieces together. I'll brainstorm and come up with a new list that is less reliant on a single reanimation target and spell.
Modern -
BG Death Cloud Rock GB
UG Aggro Control GU
WBRG Dark Zoo GRBW (testing)
I am running this version - Preordain + Serum Visions...guess what. Just as awesome. And utilizing Jin-gitaxias, Oona's Prowler, and Zombie Infestation.
Yay
3 Watery Grave
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
3 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Island
2 Oona's Prowler
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
2 Zombie Infestation
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Remand
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Makeshift Mannequin
Sideboard:
2 Duress
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Smother
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hurkyl's Recall
Please let me know how to sideboard VS counter cat.
Thanks.
3 Watery Grave
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
6 Island
22 Land
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Oona's Prowler
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Zombie Infestation
2 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Extirpate
2 Spell Pierce
4 Smother
It was pretty strong, but I ran into a few weaknesses, namely:
Countermagic- this deck does not do very well against counterspells. You would think it does with the 9 MD hand disrpution (4 TS, 2 Duress, 3 Clique), but for some reason quite a few of the Twin matchups just had them. One guy even had 2 Disrupting Shoals against me one game. Seriously. They.ALWAYS.****ING.HAD IT. Not sure how to shore up on this, but to just try to be more patient...
Merfolk.They play Aether Vial and have counterspells. Not to mention they are quick, so there realy is not time to durdle.
I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion on how to shore up on this or do we just auto lose these matchups. Post SB doesn't make things much better...
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Not sure about a green splash. I am not poo-poo'ing entirely as I thought the same thing. Giving you access to Goyf is nothing to shake a stick at, Maelstrom Pulse is a welcome addition (Putrefy too), and Life from the Loam and Worm Harvest seem interesting.
The deck is already pretty midrangey-controllish. Jamming good cards in from another midrange deck might make this lose consistency. I think that Forbidden Alchemy may shore up on this deck's distinct lack of draw power, but at what cost.
I think that since we are discussing rotation, that I was considering Snapcaster Mage for obvious reasons.
I do think your deck is an interesting take, but I guess color me somewhat skeptical. I feel like this deck is pretty consistent, but it has problem matchups. Namely Twin and Merfolk. I just want to try and shore up on these without adding other colors if possible.
I was just thinking of ading a couple of off color blue duals (ie Breeding Pool, Steam Vents, Hallowed Fountain) and Engineered Explosives for quick creature aggro decks. This doesn't help the Twin MU though...
I'll keep checking back. Let me know how this develops for you and I'll keep posting my findings.
Ok. You're having a numbers crisis which is clogging up your slots for your own countermagic. First, cut singleton Venser. He's great, but serves no purpose. Second, cut 1 Jin-Gitxias, 1 Makeshift Mannequin, 1 Thoughtseize, and both Duress. That opens up 6 slots for you, and the goal here is to have cheap answers for speedy decks. Add 2 Inquisition of Kozilek, 3 Spell Pierce, and 1 Spell Snare. Those changes should help shore up any and all aggro match-ups you're having problems with, as well as having maindeck answers for control.
Personally, I'd find a way to add a couple more dig cards to the deck, but your slots are a bit tight.
@Numotflame96: Change Enclave Cryptologist to Looter il-Kor, cut singelton Worm Harvest, 2 Makeshift Mannequin, and 1 Maelstrom Pulse...then add 4 1cmc draw spells. Your deck will reward you for that.
Modern -
BG Death Cloud Rock GB
UG Aggro Control GU
WBRG Dark Zoo GRBW (testing)
I see ur splash green.But why I don't see the powerful green card such as commune with nature , Time of need and Fauna Shaman.
Another one I prefer zombie infestation or Oona prowler over enclave cryptologist. Coz they can provide the discard action immediately its touch the field but enclave cannot and risk for removal.
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why would you not just run merfolk looter?
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You have to consider your curve, though. If you want to stay 2 or less on the discard outlet, Oona's Prowler (or Zombie Infestation I guess) is the best method, plain and simple. Having to pay the extra mana into Cryptologist slows you down too much. 1cmc draw spells give you something to do on turn 1 to either shore up your opener, or stack your deck for the next 2 turns. Speed...Is...Everything in modern, and nothing that can fix an average or bad draw is ever subpar. Do not run anymore 3cmc dig spells with Forbidden Alchemy in the deck.
Also, Maelstrom Pulse maindeck isn't nearly as good as it used to be now that storm decks have been nerfed, and it's otherwise only good against Zoo sometimes. Instant speed answers are better.
But in all seriousness, Looter il-Kor is just your best option if you're not going to run Prowler, since it's not always going to die, and you need that extra damage pre-Emrakul so they actually die when you hit them. Annihilator 6 doesn't always make people scoop. It is the BEST looter in Magic.
Modern -
BG Death Cloud Rock GB
UG Aggro Control GU
WBRG Dark Zoo GRBW (testing)
Thanks for this....
I had tried some other configurations, but they weren't working very well.
I like Inquisition in this format better than Duress anyhow, so thanks for the reassurance...
Venser is the slowest and weakest card in the deck....gladly cut him for a miser Spell Snare
Spell Pierce is pretty insane in this format too...
I changed smother in the SB for Agony Warp...it has served me well against the likes of Merfolk, but it makes me worse against Goyf.
So it seems that you are having me become less midrange and more control, I can dig that. Thank you for your response.
Now, one quick aside about Venser:
He is essentially another "Remand" that doesn't say "counter target spell". He stops a lot of stuff.
He can bounce Emrakul. Not all the way relevant, but worth noting.
I think I want to leave him in the board.
I wish they unbanned Ancestral Vision...
I think I want to find room for that new Impulse.
He can still be o-ringed and bounced with venser...
otherwise he is untargetable.
Then you can run additional reanimate targets such as Nicol Bolas or Akroma, Angel of Wrath, Elesh Norn, Sheoldred
I understand your trying to hit the emrakul but Other "I win" reanimators are acceptable.
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That's what Jin-Gitaxias is about for now. Nothing that's shown up is better. Magus is also a solid looter, but he has no power and missing your reanimation targets leaves your hand in tatters.
@apaulogy: Venser is a solid board option when you're not against Affinity/Zoo, I agree. He's just too slow otherwise in this deck. I am not a fan of Agony Warp in a format stuffed with Goyfs and KotRs, and Ravagers. I prefer just blowing them out of the water guaranteed, for less tricky mana. Also, glad to be of help (if I actually did, lol).
Modern -
BG Death Cloud Rock GB
UG Aggro Control GU
WBRG Dark Zoo GRBW (testing)
oh no you did help, an d I agree with what you say...agony warp is smother again
lately i have been trying to make a more control type build of this...maybe it's not a good idea, but I have been running Rune Snag over Remand in my post ban testing, and it has been awesome to say "no" for real sometimes.
also, call me crazy, but I find I have to aggressively discard stuff to Zombie Infestation some times. I was thinking Bloodghast would be awesome sometimes because of all the fetch lands. again, probably filler crap we don't need.
the format seems to have slowed down with the exception of the affinity and zoo matches. I am not too worried about merfolk because it is kind of a bad aggro deck. I cut Serum Visions becuase I just hated it most of the time. I have started running baby Jace as a 3-of for right now and my deck is playing more like a proactive UB control deck with a potential combo.
The problem with that is that I am starting to be pretty underwhelmed by Oona's Prowler. I wonder also if I could get away with running Creeping Tar Pit because it seems like a decent plan c.
this is what I have been thinking, idk about you. felt like chimining that in.
That, or thirst for knowledge since it gives us about the same level of control.
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Nothing wrong with Tar-pit, I just wouldn't ever mistake it for a win-con. It's an emergency swinger for plansewalker beating, mostly. Prowler isn't necessary if you start leaning heavily on control/combo. As long as you have at least 8 outlets for discard, you're fine.
No vanilla beaters required in this deck. Just find something that squeaks in that extra damage just in case annihilator 6 doesn't end the game, and go from there. That's the only reason I'm big a fan of Prowler and Looter il-Kor: Evasion + Outlet + Beats.
Modern -
BG Death Cloud Rock GB
UG Aggro Control GU
WBRG Dark Zoo GRBW (testing)
Zombie Infestation is the best discard outlet for the deck. Nets you creatures while putting the big creatures in the yard. The card that wins games is Akroma, Angel of Wrath (Time Shifted) You ideally want this card out to win. The version I ran had 3 Akroma, Angel of Wrath. When I did get the turn 2 reanimate spell, the game was then done and over with.
The only problem with this that getting a turn one Zombie Infestation is difficult. Sure, turn two isn't bad, but with control having chance to build up now, it could become that much more of an issue. As for the creatures I have seen running in the decks, they look awesome.
Hope this helps some.
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