@Argentum:
3 ultimatum for the same reason you would run 3 upheaval in old UB Tog - you only want to definitely draw one, but you don't want to do without seeing it either. With enough card draw, you could get away with two, but anything less wouldn't be optimal.
You're effectively running a teachings deck with a cruel control package or something in it. Probably stretching both of the strategies a little too far and making each of them a little less effective. Blightning is as suitable as esper charm if you aren't running 4 colors - and the quick list I have is straight grixis. I'm thinking only having a single sweeper spell in the maindeck isn't enough. Time will tell.
As for good hard counters, there aren't many. You could try Hinder or Rewind.
I'm not going to lie to you guys here. I love cruel control, but you guys are making it look like absolute trash.
3 Cruel Ultimatum Really guys? Not to mention you guys are putting it next to tec edge like there is synergy there. Come on people atleast think some things through.
Anyway. And blightning? Are you guys even trying to build it to beat the meta?
Anyway. My current cruel control list is also shaking in the mana base department, but that is why we are here to put our heads together
Notes to be taken.
Decision between wurmcoil and grave titan depends on how fast everyone actually is. I'm also thinking about wall of reverence.
May go down to 2 teachings.
The sideboard isn't finished because I don't know exactly what the meta will be. I may want to move a board sweeper to the maindeck, but it is so tight on space right now.
Also what are good sideboard cards/hard counters in this format that I don't know of?
Teachings does not a 5cc deck make. Punishing fire isn't really useful because most creatures are just too big for it. Also you have to run at least 2 ultimatums other wise you won't see the damn thing. I think you might have found the wrong thread dude.
Still working on a sideboard, but I like the mainboard feels really flexible and able to answer a lot of things. Thoughts?
Close; slagstorm is not really great in the main deck. mulldrifter is probably better than jace because we cannot really protect him. so He will be draw one and fog a creature. Bolas and ajani vengeant really aren't worth it in this format either. Those should be replaced with more control cards. also city of brass hurts way to much to run.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
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@Argentum:
3 ultimatum for the same reason you would run 3 upheaval in old UB Tog - you only want to definitely draw one, but you don't want to do without seeing it either.
You're effectively running a teachings deck with a cruel control package or something in it. Probably stretching both of the strategies a little too far and making each of them a little less effective. Blightning is as suitable as esper charm if you aren't running 4 colors - and the quick list I have is straight grixis. I'm thinking only having a single sweeper spell in the maindeck isn't enough. Time will tell.
As for good hard counters, there aren't many. You could try Hinder or Rewind.
I think you guys are blatantly ignoring the fact that cruel ultimatum is ridiculously expensive. I'm sure that by the time you would want/be able to cast cruel ultimatum you will be half way through your deck so only run 2 max otherwise you are going to be one of those guys in the bottom tables with 2 cruel ultimatums in hand while being stuck on 4 land.
Blightning isn't nearly as good as esper charm, but if you want me to make a straight grixis version I can do that too.
Close; slagstorm is not really great in the main deck. mulldrifter is probably better than jace because we cannot really protect him. so He will be draw one and fog a creature. Bolas and ajani vengeant really aren't worth it in this format either. Those should be replaced with more control cards. also city of brass hurts way to much to run.
What would you suggest as extra control cards? I've considered a singleton Teferi in the mainboard. Mulldrifter over Jace definitely seems reasonable, too. Also, what would you suggest over Slagstorm? Just straight Wrath?
My permission package feels a little lacking with only Cryptic, I'm considering Leaks or Snares (or maybe Inquisition or Thoughtseize) to round out the early game, though Bolt, Path, and Repeal takes care of that nicely.
I think you guys are blatantly ignoring the fact that cruel ultimatum is ridiculously expensive. I'm sure that by the time you would want/be able to cast cruel ultimatum you will be half way through your deck so only run 2 max otherwise you are going to be one of those guys in the bottom tables with 2 cruel ultimatums in hand while being stuck on 4 land.
Blightning isn't nearly as good as esper charm, but if you want me to make a straight grixis version I can do that too.
I know that Blightning isn't as good as esper charm, but a lot of retooling could be done to the grixis build to run it for sure. It is a really good card, no doubt.
You don't have to make a grixis build, it's just preference to have the 4th color or not. Esper charm is a lot more essential to Teachings decks than grixis control.
I feel Slagstorm is good main deck here. It hits Kitties, Apes, Elves with blood in their hair, and a bunch of other things that are really good in this format while coming down a full turn sooner than Damnation, which is extremely relevant.
well, pyroclasm comes an additional turn sooner than slagstorm but is 1 damage less, and volcanic fallout is instant speed and uncounterable on the same turn as slagstorm, but is also one damage less - I think a lot of what you choose depends on what you're going to be casting before your first sweep and what you're build is like. path/terminate in the same list allow for more options so you can wait an additional turn to slagstorm.
What would you suggest as extra control cards? I've considered a singleton Teferi in the mainboard. Mulldrifter over Jace definitely seems reasonable, too. Also, what would you suggest over Slagstorm? Just straight Wrath?
My permission package feels a little lacking with only Cryptic, I'm considering Leaks or Snares (or maybe Inquisition or Thoughtseize) to round out the early game, though Bolt, Path, and Repeal takes care of that nicely.
I would run wrath,damnation,maybe firespout. maybe like 2 damnation, 2 firespout split. maybe 2 damantions, 1 firespout. I need to do a bit of testing against zoo before I can be sure of the mass removal package.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
well, pyroclasm comes an additional turn sooner than slagstorm but is 1 damage less, and volcanic fallout is instant speed and uncounterable on the same turn as slagstorm, but is also one damage less - I think a lot of what you choose depends on what you're going to be casting before your first sweep and what you're build is like. path/terminate in the same list allow for more options so you can wait an additional turn to slagstorm.
Those don't kill kitties, though. Three is the magic number.
This is a format where the premier aggro deck centers on guys that have 3 toughness (Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx) and runs no counterspells. I would run Slagstorm over Pyro/Fallout any day of the week.
I would run wrath,damnation,maybe firespout. maybe like 2 damnation, 2 firespout split. maybe 2 damantions, 1 firespout. I need to do a bit of testing against zoo before I can be sure of the mass removal package.
Given Firespout's flexibility and its smoother casting cost (and that Zoo runs no fliers), I think Firespout is the way to go.
This is a format where the premier aggro deck centers on guys that have 3 toughness (Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx) and runs no counterspells. I would run Slagstorm over Pyro/Fallout any day of the week.
pyro had its uses against the no longer as good elves. Firespout is better than slagstorm though because of the mana requirement. Any spell that you can trim colored mana off of by replacing it will a card that is close is very good for this deck.
also added a template mana base to the OP. I need to add a grixis one, but that is a lot easier than the 5cc mana base.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Firespout is not better because we can't hit fliers with it. So we can't get rid of Fae, Spirits, or stuff like that.
Could be a non-issue, but it's not one I'm willing to risk for one red mana symbol. I doubt Vendilion Clique will drop in popularity.
that was aimed at the 5cc version of the deck. In grixis version slagstorm is better. Vendilion clique is blue which is the difference. UU is easy earlier on than RR expecially in the 5cc version.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I feel Slagstorm is good main deck here. It hits Kitties, Apes, Elves with blood in their hair, and a bunch of other things that are really good in this format while coming down a full turn sooner than Damnation, which is extremely relevant.
My name is spell pierce and I will guarantee that you lose the merfolk match up, but if you insist just play firespout because of the flexibility. It matters because if you play the clique or plumeveil or things like that you can avoid making them killable.
This is a format where the premier aggro deck centers on guys that have 3 toughness (Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx) and runs no counterspells. I would run Slagstorm over Pyro/Fallout any day of the week.
Given Firespout's flexibility and its smoother casting cost (and that Zoo runs no fliers), I think Firespout is the way to go.
Teachings does not a 5cc deck make. Punishing fire isn't really useful because most creatures are just too big for it. Also you have to run at least 2 ultimatums other wise you won't see the damn thing. I think you might have found the wrong thread dude.
Punishing Fire is the reason I don't care about aither vial merfolk.
I only play 1 Cruel Ultimatum out of personal preference, I will admit that the standard is 2.
If you want to go straight grixis I just finished making that, but I don't think you need the hand disruption you guys are jamming into your decks when the format is going to be based a lot on board presence.
Argentum: Hi, I'm Feathers and I don't sling spells into obvious counter-magic. You must really think we're a bunch of idiots if you think we'll really just throw Slagstorms out all willy-nilly. :|
My name is spell pierce and I will guarantee that you lose the merfolk match up, but if you insist just play firespout because of the flexibility. It matters because if you play the clique or plumeveil or things like that you can avoid making them killable.
Punishing Fire is the reason I don't care about aither vial merfolk.
I only play 1 Cruel Ultimatum out of personal preference, I will admit that the standard is 2.
If you want to go straight grixis I just finished making that, but I don't think you need the hand disruption you guys are jamming into your decks when the format is going to be based a lot on board presence.
Merfolk loses to zoo and jund both. It is only good against faeries which is now dead. this isn't legacy man. Also that deck was built to be faeries which is by far the best deck in 1.x during this time and now. If you look toward 1.x for deck ideas look at the MRD_8th_ZEN season. it closely resemble this format other than the ban list and newer sets after zen.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Argentum: Hi, I'm Feathers and I don't sling spells into obvious counter-magic. You must really think we're a bunch of idiots if you think we'll really just throw Slagstorms out all willy-nilly. :|
My point isn't to insult you personally it is to show you that you can't just have a bunch of firespouts or slagstorms in your deck and hope.
There has to be a mix of board wipers and 1 for 1 kill spells otherwise they will just spell pierce all the board wipes and win on turn 4/5 as planned.
EDIT: I have this weird feeling that zoo isn't going to be as broken as people think it is.
My point isn't to insult you personally it is to show you that you can't just have a bunch of firespouts or slagstorms in your deck and hope.
There has to be a mix of board wipers and 1 for 1 kill spells otherwise they will just spell pierce all the board wipes and win on turn 4/5 as planned.
My point isn't to insult you personally it is to show you that you can't just have a bunch of firespouts or slagstorms in your deck and hope.
There has to be a mix of board wipers and 1 for 1 kill spells otherwise they will just spell pierce all the board wipes and win on turn 4/5 as planned.
no one is running islands right now. view my above post merfolk didn't exist in this format before the bannings what makes you think they will after.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thomas Jefferson
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3 ultimatum for the same reason you would run 3 upheaval in old UB Tog - you only want to definitely draw one, but you don't want to do without seeing it either. With enough card draw, you could get away with two, but anything less wouldn't be optimal.
You're effectively running a teachings deck with a cruel control package or something in it. Probably stretching both of the strategies a little too far and making each of them a little less effective. Blightning is as suitable as esper charm if you aren't running 4 colors - and the quick list I have is straight grixis. I'm thinking only having a single sweeper spell in the maindeck isn't enough. Time will tell.
As for good hard counters, there aren't many. You could try Hinder or Rewind.
Teachings does not a 5cc deck make. Punishing fire isn't really useful because most creatures are just too big for it. Also you have to run at least 2 ultimatums other wise you won't see the damn thing. I think you might have found the wrong thread dude.
Close; slagstorm is not really great in the main deck. mulldrifter is probably better than jace because we cannot really protect him. so He will be draw one and fog a creature. Bolas and ajani vengeant really aren't worth it in this format either. Those should be replaced with more control cards. also city of brass hurts way to much to run.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I think you guys are blatantly ignoring the fact that cruel ultimatum is ridiculously expensive. I'm sure that by the time you would want/be able to cast cruel ultimatum you will be half way through your deck so only run 2 max otherwise you are going to be one of those guys in the bottom tables with 2 cruel ultimatums in hand while being stuck on 4 land.
Blightning isn't nearly as good as esper charm, but if you want me to make a straight grixis version I can do that too.
What would you suggest as extra control cards? I've considered a singleton Teferi in the mainboard. Mulldrifter over Jace definitely seems reasonable, too. Also, what would you suggest over Slagstorm? Just straight Wrath?
My permission package feels a little lacking with only Cryptic, I'm considering Leaks or Snares (or maybe Inquisition or Thoughtseize) to round out the early game, though Bolt, Path, and Repeal takes care of that nicely.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
I know that Blightning isn't as good as esper charm, but a lot of retooling could be done to the grixis build to run it for sure. It is a really good card, no doubt.
You don't have to make a grixis build, it's just preference to have the 4th color or not. Esper charm is a lot more essential to Teachings decks than grixis control.
I would run wrath,damnation,maybe firespout. maybe like 2 damnation, 2 firespout split. maybe 2 damantions, 1 firespout. I need to do a bit of testing against zoo before I can be sure of the mass removal package.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Those don't kill kitties, though. Three is the magic number.
Given Firespout's flexibility and its smoother casting cost (and that Zoo runs no fliers), I think Firespout is the way to go.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
pyro had its uses against the no longer as good elves. Firespout is better than slagstorm though because of the mana requirement. Any spell that you can trim colored mana off of by replacing it will a card that is close is very good for this deck.
also added a template mana base to the OP. I need to add a grixis one, but that is a lot easier than the 5cc mana base.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Could be a non-issue, but it's not one I'm willing to risk for one red mana symbol. I doubt Vendilion Clique will drop in popularity.
that was aimed at the 5cc version of the deck. In grixis version slagstorm is better. Vendilion clique is blue which is the difference. UU is easy earlier on than RR expecially in the 5cc version.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
My name is spell pierce and I will guarantee that you lose the merfolk match up, but if you insist just play firespout because of the flexibility. It matters because if you play the clique or plumeveil or things like that you can avoid making them killable.
There is truth in this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq1H2QUBdW8
Wafo Tapa doesn't know what he is doing or anything like that.
Punishing Fire is the reason I don't care about aither vial merfolk.
I only play 1 Cruel Ultimatum out of personal preference, I will admit that the standard is 2.
If you want to go straight grixis I just finished making that, but I don't think you need the hand disruption you guys are jamming into your decks when the format is going to be based a lot on board presence.
Argentum: Hi, I'm Feathers and I don't sling spells into obvious counter-magic. You must really think we're a bunch of idiots if you think we'll really just throw Slagstorms out all willy-nilly. :|
Merfolk loses to zoo and jund both. It is only good against faeries which is now dead. this isn't legacy man. Also that deck was built to be faeries which is by far the best deck in 1.x during this time and now. If you look toward 1.x for deck ideas look at the MRD_8th_ZEN season. it closely resemble this format other than the ban list and newer sets after zen.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
My point isn't to insult you personally it is to show you that you can't just have a bunch of firespouts or slagstorms in your deck and hope.
There has to be a mix of board wipers and 1 for 1 kill spells otherwise they will just spell pierce all the board wipes and win on turn 4/5 as planned.
EDIT: I have this weird feeling that zoo isn't going to be as broken as people think it is.
.. that's exactly what the deck is.
no one is running islands right now. view my above post merfolk didn't exist in this format before the bannings what makes you think they will after.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson