After the bannings I dropped my Jund list and made a Junk list straight-away. I haven't played any games with it, so it is untested, but I like Liliana in the deck simply because all your cards are threats that are simply bigger than your opponents. Liliana lets you get to topdeck mode against your opponent which is where you have the advantage.
I know you said you haven't tested, but have you played with Horizon Canopy at all yet? I'm thinking about eliminating Oran-Rief and maybe another card(ghost quarter) for 2 of them.
I was thinking of adding Lily to keep opponents in top deck mode. Are Bobs enough to keep your side of the table off of top deck mode? Do you have a sideboard?
I know you said you haven't tested, but have you played with Horizon Canopy at all yet? I'm thinking about eliminating Oran-Rief and maybe another card(ghost quarter) for 2 of them.
I was thinking of adding Lily to keep opponents in top deck mode. Are Bobs enough to keep your side of the table off of top deck mode? Do you have a sideboard?
I really like Canopy; with Lili making everybody discard you want to have extra cards, and canopy lets you do that (when you want) and its also a pretty good mana fixer.
I have 4 Bobs, 2 Canopy and 1 Arena as card draw - I think its sufficient.
I think I'll proxy it and find out how I like Canopy. I think with my build, I may transfer Bob to my side. I really like the CA he gives me, but the pain he gives is just too much. Also, this deck has a problem with aggro. You will need to look into some kind of board wipe. I'm invested in Damnation. My list above is a little outdated. My sig keeps the most current.
It isn't just Zoo, but Affinity and decks that keep the pressure on with solid beatstick swarms (knights). This deck really functions on destroying your opponents board and hand, then dropping your "rock" and beating face with it. Hand disruption and high amount of kill spells protect your rock. With all of those slots being taken up by spells and using your mana wisely by keeping your opponent off the board slows your creature landings, therefore any deck that focuses heavily in putting down creatures is going to be a problem.
I've found that out the hard way through gameplay( ) and lurking threads.
Truthfully, this deck can't work in the fast meta. The landbase alone will kill you for the aggro decks, which pretty much is(Jund acts like it and you have Zoo and Affinity). I would shorten the amount of shocks, and do the fetch and shock land toolbox I had going. I would also do 2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth so that you can make use of the fetches after you have all of your colors on the board and you don't ping yourself to death.
Your removal package needs to step up it's game in speed. I would dump the Oblivion Ring unless you're expecting protection from black and/or green, in which I would have another PtE or GFtT. GFtT if you have decks that want to ramp. Needing to kill something at the EoT is great, while sorcery speeds stops you from dropping your bomb. Also, Tarmogoyf is needed in this deck. Absolutely needed, because he will draw out the removal spells, or put in a nice early clock before you drop KotR who is your real finisher.
Also, find room for early mana production. I know that Earlier in this thread that acceleration isn't crucial, but it is. This deck has a couple of game changing 3 drops and Elspeth turn 3 is another heavy threat. I would do Noble Hierarch at 4. The exalted doesn't make her useless later in the game. Let's face it anyway, if you aren't winning by then, you probably never were going to. Playing threats turn 2 makes this deck competitive, and there are no real threats with 2CMC other than Tarmogoyf.
I don't know what your meta looks like, so I can't suggest what to take out for my suggestions. If you could tell me, I will.
Truthfully, this deck can't work in the fast meta. The landbase alone will kill you for the aggro decks, which pretty much is(Jund acts like it and you have Zoo and Affinity). I would shorten the amount of shocks, and do the fetch and shock land toolbox I had going. I would also do 2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth so that you can make use of the fetches after you have all of your colors on the board and you don't ping yourself to death.
Your removal package needs to step up it's game in speed. I would dump the Oblivion Ring unless you're expecting protection from black and/or green, in which I would have another PtE or GFtT. GFtT if you have decks that want to ramp. Needing to kill something at the EoT is great, while sorcery speeds stops you from dropping your bomb. Also, Tarmogoyf is needed in this deck. Absolutely needed, because he will draw out the removal spells, or put in a nice early clock before you drop KotR who is your real finisher.
Also, find room for early mana production. I know that Earlier in this thread that acceleration isn't crucial, but it is. This deck has a couple of game changing 3 drops and Elspeth turn 3 is another heavy threat. I would do Noble Hierarch at 4. The exalted doesn't make her useless later in the game. Let's face it anyway, if you aren't winning by then, you probably never were going to. Playing threats turn 2 makes this deck competitive, and there are no real threats with 2CMC other than Tarmogoyf.
I don't know what your meta looks like, so I can't suggest what to take out for my suggestions. If you could tell me, I will.
I made some changes. This is a somewhat budget version - I'm just trying to put it together for this PTQ, and I don't have Goyfs, so I'm not getting them. Also, my meta is hugely dominated by Jund, so Goyf is actually kind of bad when I'm running 3 Pulse because I'll end up killing my own. I upped it to 3 Birds for the acceleration factor. I'm only running 4 shocks right now. Urborg is a good idea in any meta but mine because Jund will be able to get a lot out of it. I swapped out the O-Ring for another Pulse and added Mortify instead of Putrefy because it hits both Ghostly Prison (Martyr Proc, I think) and Pyromancer Ascension (Storm).
Thanks for the tips though - does it look a bit better now?
I'm guessing you're battling pretty heavily against Jund? That is a lot of life lost MD that you are packing. Have you tested at all? Your MD life loss in my main issue with your deck, but if you can secure enough games against Affinity and Jund in testing, then I would run with it.
As for your SB, I would dump the extra Pulse, 2 Infest, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, and Seal. Pulse won't really help you instant speed kill, which is what I personally favor and you have MD Pridemage. If not another kill spell, then for something more for combo? Maybe another Gaddock, or an Ethersworn? The Seal is way too slow and it's targetable before you set it off. I'm not sure what you need it against in Modern anyway, since I've been away, but if it's against Splinter Twin I would instead put Krosan Grip here.
Infest just isn't worth it, when you can play Engineered Explosives. No life loss from Dark Confidant, and it's not conditional upon P/T, which many creatures in this format are resistant to because of built in pumps.
With Bojuka Bog being tutorable with KotR, you can drop the extra copy of Nihil Spellbomb. I would replace it with another copy of Krosan if you're worried about Splinter Twin.
I don't play The Rock, but here's something I've been running into:
Infest just isn't worth it, when you can play Engineered Explosives. No life loss from Dark Confidant, and it's not conditional upon P/T, which many creatures in this format are resistant to because of built in pumps.
I've been testing Hideous Laughter in order to wipe out the likes of Blinkmoth and such since most of my recent testing has been against Affinity. Engineered Explosives (and Crime//Punishment, which I use instead) can definitely take out several 0, 1, or 2cc+ threats, but lacks the ability to hit animated lands (since EE is non-land and Crime is sorcery). Instant speed is fun as well, though in that case you could probably run [card]Consume the Meek[card]...though it is much more expensive.
Testing hasn't been conclusive, but its worth a shot.
Private Mod Note
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Also, consider that Liliana counts as occasional mana denial, and it starts to become a significant portion of our strategy.
I don't play The Rock, but here's something I've been running into:
I've been testing Hideous Laughter in order to wipe out the likes of Blinkmoth and such since most of my recent testing has been against Affinity. Engineered Explosives (and Crime//Punishment, which I use instead) can definitely take out several 0, 1, or 2cc+ threats, but lacks the ability to hit animated lands (since EE is non-land and Crime is sorcery). Instant speed is fun as well, though in that case you could probably run [card]Consume the Meek[card]...though it is much more expensive.
Testing hasn't been conclusive, but its worth a shot.
zealous persecution has been my best friend vs affinity as of late. I SB three of them.
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Legacy Decks:
Elves
Loam Depths
Goblin Stompy
Kobold Aggro
GB Nic Fit
Pod Nic Fit
12 Post
Pattern Combo
Squirrel Stompy
Modern Decks:
Amulet of Vigor Combo
Restore Balance
Cascade Swans
Mono U Tron
Through the Breach
Elves
Mono Red Control
Tooth and Nail Tron
Leviathans
The Rock builds I have been running and having success with are kinda a mix of old school and newer tech. Both are sans Goyf, as I do not own any, but they do well when played carefully.
One t8 within an uncertain metagame does not make for Viability. Heck, there are Viable decks that have never made t8.
The WMC(World Magic Cup) not have a uncertain metagame, even though the first, this is a worldwide championship. Only the best go to him, and only the best go to top 8.
The WMC(World Magic Cup) not have a uncertain metagame, even though the first, this is a worldwide championship. Only the best go to him, and only the best go to top 8.
Sorry my english horrible if i seem rude.
No worries, I understand you fine.
The Metagame was kinda abnormal. Due how little time the teams had to test for the format, I would bet that a lot of them went for decks that were the best bet from other matches- which is why Delver flooded the top decks. That means that the Rock deck had an "artificial" gauntlet to move through, so is not indicative of how it would perform in a more tested meta. That may mean it is better, or worse than it seems, but a single deck in a single t8 can be more indicative of luck or skill than it is deck quality.
That said, I have always felt that Rock (though I have not had luck with Doran Rock) was more viable than it is given credit for. Keep in mind that tiers are in indication of popularity, not always quality, so the fact that Rock is tier 3 may just mean that the people that are most likely to play this deck are playing another deck- the popular consensus is Jund. This deck is strong, and what it really needs are MUCH more tournament players to hone it.
I know you said you haven't tested, but have you played with Horizon Canopy at all yet? I'm thinking about eliminating Oran-Rief and maybe another card(ghost quarter) for 2 of them.
I was thinking of adding Lily to keep opponents in top deck mode. Are Bobs enough to keep your side of the table off of top deck mode? Do you have a sideboard?
I really like Canopy; with Lili making everybody discard you want to have extra cards, and canopy lets you do that (when you want) and its also a pretty good mana fixer.
I have 4 Bobs, 2 Canopy and 1 Arena as card draw - I think its sufficient.
I don't have a sideboard, but it would include some amount of Kataki, War's Wage, Nihil Spellbomb (maybe), Doom Blade, more Thruns... something like that.
My Trade Thread!
Is Zoo really that much of a problem?
My Trade Thread!
I've found that out the hard way through gameplay( ) and lurking threads.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Eternal Witness
Disruption: 4
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Removal: 8
3 Path to Exile
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Go For the Throat
1 Mortify
Other: 4
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Life From the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
1 Treetop Village
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mumuring Bosk
1 Twilight Mire
1 Fetid Heath
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Krosan Grip
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
Your removal package needs to step up it's game in speed. I would dump the Oblivion Ring unless you're expecting protection from black and/or green, in which I would have another PtE or GFtT. GFtT if you have decks that want to ramp. Needing to kill something at the EoT is great, while sorcery speeds stops you from dropping your bomb. Also, Tarmogoyf is needed in this deck. Absolutely needed, because he will draw out the removal spells, or put in a nice early clock before you drop KotR who is your real finisher.
Also, find room for early mana production. I know that Earlier in this thread that acceleration isn't crucial, but it is. This deck has a couple of game changing 3 drops and Elspeth turn 3 is another heavy threat. I would do Noble Hierarch at 4. The exalted doesn't make her useless later in the game. Let's face it anyway, if you aren't winning by then, you probably never were going to. Playing threats turn 2 makes this deck competitive, and there are no real threats with 2CMC other than Tarmogoyf.
I don't know what your meta looks like, so I can't suggest what to take out for my suggestions. If you could tell me, I will.
I made some changes. This is a somewhat budget version - I'm just trying to put it together for this PTQ, and I don't have Goyfs, so I'm not getting them. Also, my meta is hugely dominated by Jund, so Goyf is actually kind of bad when I'm running 3 Pulse because I'll end up killing my own. I upped it to 3 Birds for the acceleration factor. I'm only running 4 shocks right now. Urborg is a good idea in any meta but mine because Jund will be able to get a lot out of it. I swapped out the O-Ring for another Pulse and added Mortify instead of Putrefy because it hits both Ghostly Prison (Martyr Proc, I think) and Pyromancer Ascension (Storm).
Thanks for the tips though - does it look a bit better now?
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Twilight Mire
1 Fetid Heath
"Special Lands"
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Treetop Village
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Removal/Disruption
4 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Utility
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Infest
2 Gaddock Teeg
My Trade Thread!
I'm guessing you're battling pretty heavily against Jund? That is a lot of life lost MD that you are packing. Have you tested at all? Your MD life loss in my main issue with your deck, but if you can secure enough games against Affinity and Jund in testing, then I would run with it.
As for your SB, I would dump the extra Pulse, 2 Infest, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, and Seal. Pulse won't really help you instant speed kill, which is what I personally favor and you have MD Pridemage. If not another kill spell, then for something more for combo? Maybe another Gaddock, or an Ethersworn? The Seal is way too slow and it's targetable before you set it off. I'm not sure what you need it against in Modern anyway, since I've been away, but if it's against Splinter Twin I would instead put Krosan Grip here.
Infest just isn't worth it, when you can play Engineered Explosives. No life loss from Dark Confidant, and it's not conditional upon P/T, which many creatures in this format are resistant to because of built in pumps.
With Bojuka Bog being tutorable with KotR, you can drop the extra copy of Nihil Spellbomb. I would replace it with another copy of Krosan if you're worried about Splinter Twin.
My $.02.
@ Malacoda, any testing before the PTQ?
I've been testing Hideous Laughter in order to wipe out the likes of Blinkmoth and such since most of my recent testing has been against Affinity. Engineered Explosives (and Crime//Punishment, which I use instead) can definitely take out several 0, 1, or 2cc+ threats, but lacks the ability to hit animated lands (since EE is non-land and Crime is sorcery). Instant speed is fun as well, though in that case you could probably run [card]Consume the Meek[card]...though it is much more expensive.
Testing hasn't been conclusive, but its worth a shot.
-MTG Salvation.
zealous persecution has been my best friend vs affinity as of late. I SB three of them.
Elves
Loam Depths
Goblin Stompy
Kobold Aggro
GB Nic Fit
Pod Nic Fit
12 Post
Pattern Combo
Squirrel Stompy
Amulet of Vigor Combo
Restore Balance
Cascade Swans
Mono U Tron
Through the Breach
Elves
Mono Red Control
Tooth and Nail Tron
Leviathans
Krenko Combo
Jaya LD
Zirilan Dragons
Omnath
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Path to Exile
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Baneslayer Angel
2 Wrath of God
2 Eternal Witness
4 Wall of Omens
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Primal Command
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Godless Shrine
2 Temple Garden
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Stirring Wildwood
Side:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Duress
3 Great Sable Stag
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Wrath of God
2 Silence
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Loxodon Gatekeeper
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Other Spells:
2 Path to Exile
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Day of Judgment
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Extirpate
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spellskite
My other build is more aggro hatebear focused, but it is still Neo Rock colors, and is still a hybrid control deck that seeks to win in the mid game.
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
Other Spells:
4 Path to Exile
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Ghostly Prison
Land:
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Aether Vial
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Pithing Needle
3 Silence
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
The WMC(World Magic Cup) not have a uncertain metagame, even though the first, this is a worldwide championship. Only the best go to him, and only the best go to top 8.
Sorry my english horrible if i seem rude.
The Metagame was kinda abnormal. Due how little time the teams had to test for the format, I would bet that a lot of them went for decks that were the best bet from other matches- which is why Delver flooded the top decks. That means that the Rock deck had an "artificial" gauntlet to move through, so is not indicative of how it would perform in a more tested meta. That may mean it is better, or worse than it seems, but a single deck in a single t8 can be more indicative of luck or skill than it is deck quality.
That said, I have always felt that Rock (though I have not had luck with Doran Rock) was more viable than it is given credit for. Keep in mind that tiers are in indication of popularity, not always quality, so the fact that Rock is tier 3 may just mean that the people that are most likely to play this deck are playing another deck- the popular consensus is Jund. This deck is strong, and what it really needs are MUCH more tournament players to hone it.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!