I've currently been testing this deck and it's had good results. Really happy with it so far. The manabase is really the hardest part I've found, but I'm almost considering cutting down the GQ's for a single Tec Edge. Maybe replace the Damnations with GQ/Tec Edge for the Tron Matchup, or just Pithing Needle. I may also just cut them for Smallpox or Waste Not 3 &4.
I've still been finding bad matchups against BG/x decks, some burn, and tron, but usually I've almost always been able to take G2/3. You can't rely on that though, so I'll keep working on it. Also, considering cutting one GQ for a third thoughtseize. One of the big things I've been finding is how many games you win when you open with t1 thoughtseize/iok into a secondary discard. That's really what this deck needs. It takes a little while to get started and that tempo is necessary for most of the games I play.
Edit: When I say "bad matchups" I guess I mean tough. Like oh, I kept a decent hand, but okay I got burned out on t4. I still think there are matchups where we'll need a really great hand to win g1 or they need to stumble hard.
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Tron is not that hard to beat if you dedicate sideboard space to it. As our worst matchup, we should try our best to make it to a point where we at least have a chance for a game. So what if it takes half of our sideboard (4 Pithing Needle, 4 Surgical Extraction)? Other than Darkblast for Affinity, there is not much else you need from it anyway. The main strategy of the deck has mostly good matchups, including a pretty much auto-win against blue-based decks, which is over 50% of the field.
Pod is bad as well, but you can't really sideboard effectively against it. Grafdigger's Cage helps to slow them down, sure, but as somebody already mentioned, they have artifact hate in the mainboard (in limited amounts), not to mention what they side in for games 2 and 3. It's a tough deck to beat, especially since it's one that doesn't care much about it's hand and is in colours that allow for Loxodon Smiter / Obstinate Baloth sideboardings. They can still topdeck creatures. Nevertheless, they win with beatdown and that's something we are prepared for (if you side in more spot removal so they can't even start the chain, then the Pod's value is greatly reduced). Mass removal has been historically good against them (as seen when Anger of the Gods hits), especially when it doesn't allow for regeneration effects. If only there was such a card in black... The point is, you can't expect to be good against everything, some battles will be long and hard.
BGx has never been a terrible match, especially if you don't play Pack Rats. I've been sticking to Bitterblossom since it got unbanned and it's been doing wonders for me, to the point where that's an even match. More recently I've been using Tombstalker, for which they have very limited removal options - Slaughter Pact and Maelstrom Pulse, none of which aren't exactly 4-ofs in the deck.
Affinity and Burn are not losing matchups, people. If you are losing to Burn with 8Rack (which takes 0 pain from lands, I might add), then you are doing something very wrong. Same goes for Affinity. Yes, sure, they can get some crazy explosive hands. OK? It happens, but so can we. Keep in mind those are the exact decks that keep the metagame in check. If you consistently lose to them to the point where you use Leyline of Sanctity in the side, then I'm sorry, but you are just not playing the deck correctly.
So, a sideboard the looks like this should be all you need:
Over the course of this thread some people have argued against "hard sideboarding", but "8Rack is not a traditional deck and we don't use traditional sideboards", as Destroyermaker pointed out. This sideboard will get you where you need to go, for the most part. If you just accept you lose to Tron and don't expect to see it that much, you can put Orb or Cage for Pod... both work pretty much indentically, but Cage is slightly better.
Enlighten us, how to play the burn matchup "correctly". Even if you draw enough Racks and manage to deal with the Eidolon it's a coinflip at best. Considering that Burn is one of the most popular decks at the moment it is very much justified to dedicate some sideboard space against it.
Anything that prevents Burn from playing 6 spells by turn 3, discard for example, completely ruins it. Wrench Mind, Raven's Crime and our removal are our best cards in this match, Thoughtseize is a liability and must be sided-out for Extirpate/Surgical game 2. If you Extirpate Eidolon or Bolt they are gonna be in a lot of pain.
Also, don't imediately kill Goblin Guide if you have seen less than 4 lands and aren't at 10 yet, he's gonna draw you fuel for Raven's Crime and if they fall to top-deck mode before dealing 9 they'll need blessed luck to win.
If there's just too much burn in your meta, run Funeral Charm.
Dedicateing half your sideboard space for a deck that makes up a tiny portion of the metagame (http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO&meta=57) sounds like a bad plan in the first place. Considering that even after all that sideboarding the matchup will still not be positive just makes it worse.
And what else are you going to use your sideboard against? The entire point of the discussion here is to find out how to make our worst matchups not so bad. Why do you need sideboard cards against strategies you are already strong against (or at least on par with)? Whether through various splashes (each one more ridiculous than the former, but that's a point of another discussion) or through simple sideboarding, the idea is to make sure you have a fighting chance against the entire field, not to humiliate opponents you are already strong against while auto conceding when you see an Urza land.
As for burn... look at what Sirius_B has to say. Burn has never, ever, been an unfair matchup for 8Rack. Since the addition of Eidolon it has gotten worse, but not even slightly remotely close to a "bad" match. You don't have to "play the matchup correctly", all you have to do is play 8Rack correctly. The people who feel Burn is tough simply don't do that. You can lose a game or two to them now and again if their hand is too explosive and they are on the play, but that's about it. You should be happy to take 8Rack to a burn-heavy tournament.
It's a good thing you give such compelling arguments. But anyway, let me ask you: for how long have you been playing 8Rack or any other Rack-based deck... or any discard deck whatsoever.
Because I've taken Pox decks to Legacy tournaments, with great success I might add. I played a Rack deck years ago in Extended (if you know what that was) which got me through several PTQs. Ever since Return to Ravnica got fully spoiled I've been testing and playing an 8Rack deck. It's been changing for the past 2 years but since MemoryLapse started doing his thing here it's helped me improved it. It's good and bad matchups have been changing as cards came and went, but a discard strategy has never, in any format, shell or event, been weak to Burn strategies. I'm sorry to break it down for you like that.
Go to Memory or Destroyermaker's YouTube channels and search for Burn matches. Or any matches, if you want to learn how to play the deck or archetype properly. I'm not the Messiah, fortunately, but even if I was, you wouldn't be among the saved ones.
Please calm down and keep emotions out of this; this thread is already well on its way to being deleted thanks to arguments like this. Take the advice I've given myself: if someone's idea makes you angry, simply ignore it.
The burn matchup is straightforward. You have to get them to run out of gas. The worst card they have for us is Eidolon. I was running sun droplet for that matchup but have recently switched to Timely Reinforcements, but pretty much any lifegain makes their task a lot harder. So do things like rule of law. Of course that stuff is only viable if you run a white splash. You can't make a lot of mistakes, and you have to be aggressive about plays. Waiting a turn or slow rolling something might kill you if they drop Eidolon in the meantime.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
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Phone! I dig the deck that you and Bathickey are bringing to this forum. That Green splash is really developing nicely with 4 Abrupt Decay. Couple thoughts:
- 2 Darkblast main deck is a lot. I've tooled around with this card in and out of maindecks and sideboard a ton. It blanks against a lot of decks, and I feel like your Abrupt Decay can fill the slot of direct creature removal sufficiently when paired with 3 Ensnaring Bridge and 4 Liliana of the Veil and a slew of discard spells. I'd suggest dropping both (even at the loss of the dredge mechanic) for a 3rd Thoughtseize and 1 Damnation.
- The addition of the Fetch Lands is a strain on your life total. This deck can't handle that stress, methinks. I'd opt for normal mana sources, even though I know you said that the color balancing has proved problematic. Then again, you do need the fetches to run the Life from Loam engine. To further cause trouble in that regard What about a Treetop Village? Trample is the bomb, and he can block a lot. This approach would bring you closer to other decks that see tremendous success with man lands.
I agree with Sled_Dog. A Red Burn Match up is a pretty simply one. There are only so many 'forks in the road' when two burn decks square off against each other. As much as I appreciate the bravado that Esperino writes with, I do disagree - courteously - with just about all of his recent assertions. Destroyermaker is right: let's all chill. And for the record, Feuerteufl has written some masterfully intelligent posts on this forum in the past.
Red Burn is a difficult match up. I used to run an 8 Rack variant which generally plowed over red burn: 8 Rack Attack. It ran 4 Mutavault, 4 Dark Confidant, and 4 Gravecrawler which came out swinging and discarding like a beast. But, that was before Eidolon of the great revel. Smash to Smithereens and Hellspark Elemental are game winners for them as well. And, I don't know if I would ever take hits on the chin from a Goblin Guide for about a 35% chance that I will draw a land, Sirius_B. In the New Hampshire State Championships, I conceded a game to RED BURN deck when I had 9 life - He had an Eidolon and Guide on board, and some burn in hand // I had racks in mine. For that Tournament, I was running the Boston Grand Prix 8 Rack deck that ran 4 Bob, 4 Smallpox, and 4 Thoughtseize, so I was slapping myself in the face pretty soundly when it came to self-inflicted damage.
Speaking to the sideboarding, Esperino wrote, 'so what if it takes 1/2 our sideboard to battle Tron', and associated thoughts about how Tron is beatable. Sometimes you gotta let those hard to reach ones go. Similarly, I disagree and think that enhancing your advantage against slightly favored matches are a smart way to go. This does call for more diversity in a sideboard. Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage are not 'identical'. The Cage better battles POD and STORM while Orb gives you an advantage against TWIN and Snapcaster Mage which we don't need as much help beating.
Speaking to the sideboarding, Esperino wrote, 'so what if it takes 1/2 our sideboard to battle Tron', and associated thoughts about how Tron is beatable. Sometimes you gotta let those hard to reach ones go. Similarly, I disagree and think that enhancing your advantage against slightly favored matches are a smart way to go. This does call for more diversity in a sideboard. Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage are not 'identical'. The Cage better battles POD and STORM while Orb gives you an advantage against TWIN and Snapcaster Mage which we don't need as much help beating.
I feel obliged to point out I referred to Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage as "indentical" only in regards to the Pod deck. They attack it from different ways, but the end result is very similar. It is of course clear that the cards have their differences and each is more useful against different non-Pod strategies. Which one you run depends on what you expect the field to be. Twin decks are generally more popular than Storm, so some people might want to have better odds against that even if it comes to using the more expensive artifact that allows Pod to at least get beaters down on the field.
In any case, my opinion is that a sideboard should get you through Day 1 of an event (in the case that your deck has a built-in weakness for certain matchups, such as 8Rack has with Tron), where you are more likely to see all sorts of brews. It is highly more likely to run into Tron at that stage than at a latter one. And even if you decide to led Tron slide and just concede to it... what are you going to use 4 more sideboard slots against? What do you really, desperately need in there?
About Red Burn - never have I called it an "easy" deck to play against. But is it as impossible to beat as some people claim or strictly a "hard matchup"? No. Just because something is not hard doesn't make it easy. It's a battle in which even the slightest mistake will cause you to lose, that's for certain. That's why people who are inexperienced in piloting 8Rack have a rough time against it. Vice versa, inexperienced Burn players will lose most of their matches to 8Rack. Just like the world isn't black and white, certain decks are not easy or hard. Sometimes, such as when it comes to Burn vs 8Rack, the decks are very similar in both power and in what they do and the better player wins.
Taking a 10/90 (their favor) matchup and pushing it to 30/70 (remember they get to board too) with 8 sideboard slots doesn't strike me as a good idea. Its actually the exact same concept and not having sideboard tech for the matchups where you're 90/10 (looking at you blue). If they can increase their chance to 30/70 you're better off not dedicating sideboard to it.
When you can take a matchup thats closer to 50/50 and have your board configured to ideally allow you to be able to get to the 70/30 post-board instead of staying at or near 50/50.
The main thing I would consider if I were trying to generate a sideboard for Tron would be to have it viable against other decks as well.
vs Burn :
3-23-13 Daily Round 3 vs Red Burn -> Loss
3-19-14 Daily Round 4 vs Red Burn -> Leyline wins
3-18-14 Daily Round 2 vs Red Burn -> Loss
8Rack GP Prague Daily Round 3 -> Win (this is the Bob deck)
Theres all the videos that were simple to find that were vs burn. So after looking at them would you mind going a bit further into detail about how the deck : /e : (these are all bad wordings... but you get what i mean I hope)
A) Doesnt lose to burn
B) Doesnt need leyline
C) General sideboarding thoughts for burn
Since the only wins are a list thats not advocated by MemoryLapse, and a Leyline win. The other 2 are loses.
Thanks man, although I do want to say that BatHickey has had a lot to do with shaping my current list. Props were props are due. I've recently been changing it more towards Memorylapse's list, but I still think BG is the way to go, currently.
Yeah, I'm considering cutting one for another Thoughsteize. Like I said before this deck can really capitalize on the tempo gained from back to back thought/iok in the opening hand. With I also think 1 Damnation could work, have one mb, one sb, and then try a creeping corrosion or something sb. I know Creeping corrosion seems like a cute concession to Affinity, but it also hurts Tron somewhat. When we can crush all of their Worumcoils, Eggs, Maps, and Wurm tokens in one go, I think it requires some testing.
What the sideboard really needs is cards that have more flexibility than to just hose one matchup. Nature's Claim here does good work against Tron, Affinity, and Burn. Yes, even some burn. Our main wincon is Rack. We need to play these, but they become a liability with Smash to Smithereens around. Being able to have Rack putting in a clock, but holding back a Nature's Claim to gain 4 eot typically buys me the 1-2 turns I need to stabilize. Claim in response to Smash is a huge tempo swing, putting us 7 life away from where we'd be without it. The same goes for Tron (Wurmcoil gaining them 4 vs. 6 life), and Affinity which relies on specific artifacts to tick. In this way we can always have sideboard cards hit multiple decks.
I do think that we need to give Tron and Pod more sideboard slots, though. I'll keep testing Damnation in the SB and maybe bring an additional 1 into the MB.
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What the sideboard really needs is cards that have more flexibility than to just hose one matchup. Nature's Claim here does good work against Tron, Affinity, and Burn. Yes, even some burn. Our main wincon is Rack. We need to play these, but they become a liability with Smash to Smithereens around. Being able to have Rack putting in a clock, but holding back a Nature's Claim to gain 4 eot typically buys me the 1-2 turns I need to stabilize. Claim in response to Smash is a huge tempo swing, putting us 7 life away from where we'd be without it. The same goes for Tron (Wurmcoil gaining them 4 vs. 6 life), and Affinity which relies on specific artifacts to tick. In this way we can always have sideboard cards hit multiple decks.
Since Abrupt Decay can do most of the work that Nature's Claim can do (outside of the life-gain vs burn), have you considered testing out Krosan Grip. It (theoretically) does more against Tron due to being able to kill an O-Stone they try to leave hanging around as a threat. They have no chance to respond by blowing it up, it also works against Affinity (WAY WAY slower) to be able to stop Ravager sac effects (if you kill the Ravager with it that is).
/e : I still like Damnation in 8rack sideboard, but every time it gets suggested it always come back to "4 CMC is too much"
I think Damnation is a fine choice. There were a lot of players running Drown in Sorrow a while back (including MemoryLapse), but I felt it wasn't quite good enough.
Well, I came to this deck from R/G Tron (I still have it sleeved up and go back and forth), but I don't understand all the concern about Tron. Why exactly is this matchup that hard? Having played Tron a lot (very successfully) for the past year and a half, discard makes the deck really struggle. As long as you steal the right pieces with your discard (ie, things that help get tron online), then what makes this so hard? Bridge cancels out wurmcoil and Emerakul pretty handily, most R/G Tron decks only run a solo Ulamog in the side, so isn't it really just Karn that gives us issues? Why are people not talking about fulminator mage and pithing needle against Karn? They shut it down pretty effectively. Now, the R/G tron player can proactively bring in their artifact hate from the side. If you really really wanted to use 8 slots against tron, wouldn't you do 2x Fulminator Mage, 4x Pithing Needle, and 2x Buried Ruin, or some combination of that?
If it's O-stone that scares you, remember this is a deck with 20 lands. Fulminator Mage their urza away and they'll be lucky to see their 5th land to blow the O-Stone by turn 8 or 9.
I haven't played my one deck against the other, which I probably should, but I just need help conceptualizing the issues. Whenever I saw a deck with discard while playing it, a big cringe ensued.
I've looked at Krosan Grip but i don't like it. For this deck I feel like it's too slow. Far too slow. Nature's claim works best as a tempo thing. I'd rather Claim whatever the modular target is then have to wait till turn 3 to play it. We could be dead by then, if they're on the play. I like Damnation for when games go way long. I think the types of games that damnation are good in are the types of games that do go super long. I just finished a game against UB Tezzerator which ended with us both having a dozen lands in play. We had both Extirpated/Surgicaled/GY Hated almost all of the other person's wincons. Games don't usually go that long, I find, but generally when you play Midrange they've got removal for Lily, Rack, and Bridge. In that sense, we need to be able to stabilize. I think this requires Damnation. Like I said before, I'll keep testing it and get back to you guys later.
So far I've been really happy with Nature's Claim. Been playing it a while and it compliments Abrupt Decay nicely, rather than competing for the spot.
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IMHO Damnation is one of the best removals in all of MTG, but it's hard to force it into this deck because it's not often you really need a fat sweeper. Usually you can stabilize and get bridge down, or removal/liliana out. I ran Drown in Sorrow in a monoblack build. Now I run night of souls' betrayal and path to exile in a Bw build. Knowing I can ignore all x/1 creatures is nice, and knowing it also makes everything weaker is nice too.
The more I play the more I'm sold on the resiliency of the Bw build. One of my fave SB cards is timely reinforcements. It just won the game for me against junk after they "discarded" loxodon smiter turn 0. Chumping and giving me enough life to stall and get some racks on the board to race. Before that UWB control scooped twice to Spirit of the Labyrinth, which is in the SB mainly for storm, but hosed this control match even more so than normal. Add in things like disenchant to remove leylines, or actually being able to play Leyline of Sanctity from the hand if you don't get it opening, white is a very good addition.
Current sideboard if anyone is interested. Tombstalker is a test run, mostly for the pod matchup.
If it's O-stone that scares you, remember this is a deck with 20 lands. Fulminator Mage their urza away and they'll be lucky to see their 5th land to blow the O-Stone by turn 8 or 9.
It IS O-Stone. 8rack can be slow to win if the opponent knows how to play against us and a single O-Stone off the top-deck can end the game for us against Tron. You really do have too many things to get rid of, some that can't even be targeted by half of our targeted removal suite even.
As for burn, I've played burn since the original 30 Mountain 30 Lightning Bolt, have lived through the ups and downs of Legacy burn and generally consider Modern burn like arm-wrestling my little sister. Speaking from the perspective of what you DON'T want your opponent doing while playing burn rather than the paranoia in here: Getting their hand to 0 turn 2 > LoS turn 1. You can trust me or die to an Eidolon, it's your choice.
Could you be more specific about what you think we should be doing for the matchup? Like destroying their hand is obvious, but in terms of sideboard (dedicated burn hate, some, or just none?) and what you'd switch out. How I understand your last statement is that it would be more effective to side out things like Bridge/Some removal for maybe greater discard? Go all in on targeted removal. Because I feel like we already do that IOK/Thoughtseize t1 into Raven's crime twice or Wrench Mind or something t2 seems like the best we can do. All these cards are already in the mainboard so how does LoS stop us? I've had great results with it - against burn, mirror, Rock, UWR midrange, also stops Redcap Combo, and Karn (for a turn) - I honestly don't see how it's that bad of a card.
I think the main thing is that it's not a one card burn killer, but as long as you're not mulling to 4 just to get a leyline it seems like a fine addition.
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3 The Rack
3 Shrieking Affliction
2 Waste Not
3 Pack Rat
2 Darkblast
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Raven's Crime
2 Thoughtseize
3 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
4 Woodland Cemetery
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mutavault
3 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Darkblast
3 Nature's Claim
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Damnation
I've still been finding bad matchups against BG/x decks, some burn, and tron, but usually I've almost always been able to take G2/3. You can't rely on that though, so I'll keep working on it. Also, considering cutting one GQ for a third thoughtseize. One of the big things I've been finding is how many games you win when you open with t1 thoughtseize/iok into a secondary discard. That's really what this deck needs. It takes a little while to get started and that tempo is necessary for most of the games I play.
Edit: When I say "bad matchups" I guess I mean tough. Like oh, I kept a decent hand, but okay I got burned out on t4. I still think there are matchups where we'll need a really great hand to win g1 or they need to stumble hard.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Pod is bad as well, but you can't really sideboard effectively against it. Grafdigger's Cage helps to slow them down, sure, but as somebody already mentioned, they have artifact hate in the mainboard (in limited amounts), not to mention what they side in for games 2 and 3. It's a tough deck to beat, especially since it's one that doesn't care much about it's hand and is in colours that allow for Loxodon Smiter / Obstinate Baloth sideboardings. They can still topdeck creatures. Nevertheless, they win with beatdown and that's something we are prepared for (if you side in more spot removal so they can't even start the chain, then the Pod's value is greatly reduced). Mass removal has been historically good against them (as seen when Anger of the Gods hits), especially when it doesn't allow for regeneration effects. If only there was such a card in black... The point is, you can't expect to be good against everything, some battles will be long and hard.
BGx has never been a terrible match, especially if you don't play Pack Rats. I've been sticking to Bitterblossom since it got unbanned and it's been doing wonders for me, to the point where that's an even match. More recently I've been using Tombstalker, for which they have very limited removal options - Slaughter Pact and Maelstrom Pulse, none of which aren't exactly 4-ofs in the deck.
Affinity and Burn are not losing matchups, people. If you are losing to Burn with 8Rack (which takes 0 pain from lands, I might add), then you are doing something very wrong. Same goes for Affinity. Yes, sure, they can get some crazy explosive hands. OK? It happens, but so can we. Keep in mind those are the exact decks that keep the metagame in check. If you consistently lose to them to the point where you use Leyline of Sanctity in the side, then I'm sorry, but you are just not playing the deck correctly.
So, a sideboard the looks like this should be all you need:
4x Pithing Needle
4x Surgical Extraction
3x Damnation
Over the course of this thread some people have argued against "hard sideboarding", but "8Rack is not a traditional deck and we don't use traditional sideboards", as Destroyermaker pointed out. This sideboard will get you where you need to go, for the most part. If you just accept you lose to Tron and don't expect to see it that much, you can put Orb or Cage for Pod... both work pretty much indentically, but Cage is slightly better.
Anything that prevents Burn from playing 6 spells by turn 3, discard for example, completely ruins it. Wrench Mind, Raven's Crime and our removal are our best cards in this match, Thoughtseize is a liability and must be sided-out for Extirpate/Surgical game 2. If you Extirpate Eidolon or Bolt they are gonna be in a lot of pain.
Also, don't imediately kill Goblin Guide if you have seen less than 4 lands and aren't at 10 yet, he's gonna draw you fuel for Raven's Crime and if they fall to top-deck mode before dealing 9 they'll need blessed luck to win.
If there's just too much burn in your meta, run Funeral Charm.
And what else are you going to use your sideboard against? The entire point of the discussion here is to find out how to make our worst matchups not so bad. Why do you need sideboard cards against strategies you are already strong against (or at least on par with)? Whether through various splashes (each one more ridiculous than the former, but that's a point of another discussion) or through simple sideboarding, the idea is to make sure you have a fighting chance against the entire field, not to humiliate opponents you are already strong against while auto conceding when you see an Urza land.
As for burn... look at what Sirius_B has to say. Burn has never, ever, been an unfair matchup for 8Rack. Since the addition of Eidolon it has gotten worse, but not even slightly remotely close to a "bad" match. You don't have to "play the matchup correctly", all you have to do is play 8Rack correctly. The people who feel Burn is tough simply don't do that. You can lose a game or two to them now and again if their hand is too explosive and they are on the play, but that's about it. You should be happy to take 8Rack to a burn-heavy tournament.
Because I've taken Pox decks to Legacy tournaments, with great success I might add. I played a Rack deck years ago in Extended (if you know what that was) which got me through several PTQs. Ever since Return to Ravnica got fully spoiled I've been testing and playing an 8Rack deck. It's been changing for the past 2 years but since MemoryLapse started doing his thing here it's helped me improved it. It's good and bad matchups have been changing as cards came and went, but a discard strategy has never, in any format, shell or event, been weak to Burn strategies. I'm sorry to break it down for you like that.
Go to Memory or Destroyermaker's YouTube channels and search for Burn matches. Or any matches, if you want to learn how to play the deck or archetype properly. I'm not the Messiah, fortunately, but even if I was, you wouldn't be among the saved ones.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
- 2 Darkblast main deck is a lot. I've tooled around with this card in and out of maindecks and sideboard a ton. It blanks against a lot of decks, and I feel like your Abrupt Decay can fill the slot of direct creature removal sufficiently when paired with 3 Ensnaring Bridge and 4 Liliana of the Veil and a slew of discard spells. I'd suggest dropping both (even at the loss of the dredge mechanic) for a 3rd Thoughtseize and 1 Damnation.
- The addition of the Fetch Lands is a strain on your life total. This deck can't handle that stress, methinks. I'd opt for normal mana sources, even though I know you said that the color balancing has proved problematic. Then again, you do need the fetches to run the Life from Loam engine. To further cause trouble in that regard
Red Burn is a difficult match up. I used to run an 8 Rack variant which generally plowed over red burn: 8 Rack Attack. It ran 4 Mutavault, 4 Dark Confidant, and 4 Gravecrawler which came out swinging and discarding like a beast. But, that was before Eidolon of the great revel. Smash to Smithereens and Hellspark Elemental are game winners for them as well. And, I don't know if I would ever take hits on the chin from a Goblin Guide for about a 35% chance that I will draw a land, Sirius_B. In the New Hampshire State Championships, I conceded a game to RED BURN deck when I had 9 life - He had an Eidolon and Guide on board, and some burn in hand // I had racks in mine. For that Tournament, I was running the Boston Grand Prix 8 Rack deck that ran 4 Bob, 4 Smallpox, and 4 Thoughtseize, so I was slapping myself in the face pretty soundly when it came to self-inflicted damage.
Speaking to the sideboarding, Esperino wrote, 'so what if it takes 1/2 our sideboard to battle Tron', and associated thoughts about how Tron is beatable. Sometimes you gotta let those hard to reach ones go. Similarly, I disagree and think that enhancing your advantage against slightly favored matches are a smart way to go. This does call for more diversity in a sideboard. Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage are not 'identical'. The Cage better battles POD and STORM while Orb gives you an advantage against TWIN and Snapcaster Mage which we don't need as much help beating.
I feel obliged to point out I referred to Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage as "indentical" only in regards to the Pod deck. They attack it from different ways, but the end result is very similar. It is of course clear that the cards have their differences and each is more useful against different non-Pod strategies. Which one you run depends on what you expect the field to be. Twin decks are generally more popular than Storm, so some people might want to have better odds against that even if it comes to using the more expensive artifact that allows Pod to at least get beaters down on the field.
In any case, my opinion is that a sideboard should get you through Day 1 of an event (in the case that your deck has a built-in weakness for certain matchups, such as 8Rack has with Tron), where you are more likely to see all sorts of brews. It is highly more likely to run into Tron at that stage than at a latter one. And even if you decide to led Tron slide and just concede to it... what are you going to use 4 more sideboard slots against? What do you really, desperately need in there?
About Red Burn - never have I called it an "easy" deck to play against. But is it as impossible to beat as some people claim or strictly a "hard matchup"? No. Just because something is not hard doesn't make it easy. It's a battle in which even the slightest mistake will cause you to lose, that's for certain. That's why people who are inexperienced in piloting 8Rack have a rough time against it. Vice versa, inexperienced Burn players will lose most of their matches to 8Rack. Just like the world isn't black and white, certain decks are not easy or hard. Sometimes, such as when it comes to Burn vs 8Rack, the decks are very similar in both power and in what they do and the better player wins.
Taking a 10/90 (their favor) matchup and pushing it to 30/70 (remember they get to board too) with 8 sideboard slots doesn't strike me as a good idea. Its actually the exact same concept and not having sideboard tech for the matchups where you're 90/10 (looking at you blue). If they can increase their chance to 30/70 you're better off not dedicating sideboard to it.
When you can take a matchup thats closer to 50/50 and have your board configured to ideally allow you to be able to get to the 70/30 post-board instead of staying at or near 50/50.
The main thing I would consider if I were trying to generate a sideboard for Tron would be to have it viable against other decks as well.
vs Burn :
3-23-13 Daily Round 3 vs Red Burn -> Loss
3-19-14 Daily Round 4 vs Red Burn -> Leyline wins
3-18-14 Daily Round 2 vs Red Burn -> Loss
8Rack GP Prague Daily Round 3 -> Win (this is the Bob deck)
Theres all the videos that were simple to find that were vs burn. So after looking at them would you mind going a bit further into detail about how the deck : /e : (these are all bad wordings... but you get what i mean I hope)
A) Doesnt lose to burn
B) Doesnt need leyline
C) General sideboarding thoughts for burn
Since the only wins are a list thats not advocated by MemoryLapse, and a Leyline win. The other 2 are loses.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
Yeah, I'm considering cutting one for another Thoughsteize. Like I said before this deck can really capitalize on the tempo gained from back to back thought/iok in the opening hand. With I also think 1 Damnation could work, have one mb, one sb, and then try a creeping corrosion or something sb. I know Creeping corrosion seems like a cute concession to Affinity, but it also hurts Tron somewhat. When we can crush all of their Worumcoils, Eggs, Maps, and Wurm tokens in one go, I think it requires some testing.
What the sideboard really needs is cards that have more flexibility than to just hose one matchup. Nature's Claim here does good work against Tron, Affinity, and Burn. Yes, even some burn. Our main wincon is Rack. We need to play these, but they become a liability with Smash to Smithereens around. Being able to have Rack putting in a clock, but holding back a Nature's Claim to gain 4 eot typically buys me the 1-2 turns I need to stabilize. Claim in response to Smash is a huge tempo swing, putting us 7 life away from where we'd be without it. The same goes for Tron (Wurmcoil gaining them 4 vs. 6 life), and Affinity which relies on specific artifacts to tick. In this way we can always have sideboard cards hit multiple decks.
I do think that we need to give Tron and Pod more sideboard slots, though. I'll keep testing Damnation in the SB and maybe bring an additional 1 into the MB.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Since Abrupt Decay can do most of the work that Nature's Claim can do (outside of the life-gain vs burn), have you considered testing out Krosan Grip. It (theoretically) does more against Tron due to being able to kill an O-Stone they try to leave hanging around as a threat. They have no chance to respond by blowing it up, it also works against Affinity (WAY WAY slower) to be able to stop Ravager sac effects (if you kill the Ravager with it that is).
/e : I still like Damnation in 8rack sideboard, but every time it gets suggested it always come back to "4 CMC is too much"
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
If it's O-stone that scares you, remember this is a deck with 20 lands. Fulminator Mage their urza away and they'll be lucky to see their 5th land to blow the O-Stone by turn 8 or 9.
I haven't played my one deck against the other, which I probably should, but I just need help conceptualizing the issues. Whenever I saw a deck with discard while playing it, a big cringe ensued.
So far I've been really happy with Nature's Claim. Been playing it a while and it compliments Abrupt Decay nicely, rather than competing for the spot.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
The more I play the more I'm sold on the resiliency of the Bw build. One of my fave SB cards is timely reinforcements. It just won the game for me against junk after they "discarded" loxodon smiter turn 0. Chumping and giving me enough life to stall and get some racks on the board to race. Before that UWB control scooped twice to Spirit of the Labyrinth, which is in the SB mainly for storm, but hosed this control match even more so than normal. Add in things like disenchant to remove leylines, or actually being able to play Leyline of Sanctity from the hand if you don't get it opening, white is a very good addition.
Current sideboard if anyone is interested. Tombstalker is a test run, mostly for the pod matchup.
2 Torpor Orb
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Timely Reinforcements
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Tombstalker
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
@Sled-dog: What kind of manabase do you run? I know we splash different colour, but I imagine they'd look the same for the most part.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
It IS O-Stone. 8rack can be slow to win if the opponent knows how to play against us and a single O-Stone off the top-deck can end the game for us against Tron. You really do have too many things to get rid of, some that can't even be targeted by half of our targeted removal suite even.
As for burn, I've played burn since the original 30 Mountain 30 Lightning Bolt, have lived through the ups and downs of Legacy burn and generally consider Modern burn like arm-wrestling my little sister. Speaking from the perspective of what you DON'T want your opponent doing while playing burn rather than the paranoia in here: Getting their hand to 0 turn 2 > LoS turn 1. You can trust me or die to an Eidolon, it's your choice.
I think the main thing is that it's not a one card burn killer, but as long as you're not mulling to 4 just to get a leyline it seems like a fine addition.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG