Yes that's what I think of the deck as well, while not so defeatist as ML put it. This is not a format-warping deck, it's is not Miracles or Pod but it is a very powerful anti-meta deck. Much more powerful than blue moon or hatebears and much more consistent too.
Not everyone shares that opinion of the deck. I'd posit that that is why we see so many different builds. The difference is dredge can steal a tournament, but dies to any hate. This deck doesn't seem to steal any tournaments. I don't see how this deck is a "meta assassin" and can't stand up to some hate. White and Green splashes do wonders against the things you've mentioned as hate. Even Red would help, but not for getting under a Leyline (assuming those became as ubiquitous against us, as Cage is against pod). I feel like the deck needs to crush a big tournament, before it can be considered a meta assassin. I'd reference the Blue Moon deck from Protour Theros(? IRC).
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I don't see white or green splashes winning as much as MemoryLapse or destroyermaker.
You say the deck isn't a meta assasin because it hasn't shown professional play results? I say the splashes haven't shown even the small results the core build has shown.
I will not change what has worked for me unless the meta changes and forces me to change (-2 Waste Not, -2 Bitterblossom for +4 Pack Rat when my meta changed from 80% control/combo to 50% tempo, 40% combo for example) so I can keep getting consistent top4 and getting top2 often. You want the splashes to be tested, please test them yourself and show us how it does. Only Esperino is justifying his splash choices, (I don't consider LoamRack a splash, I consider it a different deck, a decent deck, but not 8rack), everyone else seems to be expecting the people winning to do it for them.
Leyline for us is like Cage for Pod. It's a... female canine, to be children-friendly. However, it doesn't completely shut us down, especially since Pack Rat allows us to turn the dead "targeting" discard into board presence.
I don't see anyone expecting someone to do their winning for them. I and others HAVE BEEN TESTING THEM FOR WEEKS OR MONTHS. The chances to bring a deck to large paper events is almost never. I've been testing nothing but splashes and have been posting results. I don't live in a city where we have GP's every weekend.
Your argument is fallacious, in assuming that a path with small results is the absolute best path. It gets results but plateaued. Growth is needed for more results. Nothing against ML's list.
Don't change your deck. I don't really care what you play. I'm just here testing. And posting results. I have made many posts about the green cards I believe help the deck. As much as I appreciate Esperino, he's been all talk. Came in spewing fire about testing every splash, but hasn't posted much for all his supposed testing. I would love to see what he found. So far his contributions have been lackluster. I don't mean to knock on Esperino's testing, but his talk when he first rolled in and then nothing.
I'm not saying the Mono-black deck sucks. I was commenting on ML's view towards this deck.
@Memorylapse: I don't see how you can get so upset about people posting dumb suggestions when you say the deck is not even meant to be taken past FNM.
As for testing has been going I've been doing really well with this list below. The sideboard is something I'm testing out. Obviously cutting a few "staples" down to 3 of's to make room for a greater variety of cards - LtL, AD, and Waste Not. I'm still fiddling around with the land base. May cut a OG Tomb for Dakmor Salvage. List here:
The reason I'm splashing green, taking damage from lands, and straining my mana base, is because I think green has a lot of cheap removal that shores up black's weaknesses. Prior to green, I'd have to side in symetrical discard effects to deal with Leylines. Green can rip them open for cheap. Life gain doesn't matter as we go long anyways. When life becomes a factor it means they've already lost. Claim can hit your own bridge after a pack rat buildup, to alpha strike + 4 life. Loam can combine with Crime to destroy hands that Dakmor-Crime can't touch, ie. When we've got not a whole lot and they've managed to draw/sandbag cards to escape the racks. Loam also makes Mutavault more expendable/dependable. It can chump for Lily for a few turns, letting you escape some of the more aggressive decks. Abrupt Decay is just awesome. It's like Victim of Night, but more versatile in more ways. Obviously doesn't hit 3+ permanents, but those are rare.
As far as the sideboard goes, I wanted to test the idea that we might be able to run a splash, cutting some cards down to 3 for a greater array of effects and then board into/out of cards with don't help. Making the deck run like it has 4/4/4/4 of specific staples in games 2/3 and evening up our matches across the field g1. I've only just started testing this board, so let me know what you think.
Shadow of Doubt is in testing for the first time. It theoretically helps us against Tron + Pod, and cantrips. How much it helps (for this build, I know it's been tested before) will remain to be seen. I know Cage is the standby for Pod, but I still feel like it's susceptible to removal before going off (like Leyline Against Storm/Ad Nauseam). The sideboard is still very experimental so this could all get scrapped soon. I am considering still putting Worm Harvest back in the sb, as it gets underneath bridge and interacts very well with loam. I would like a alt wincon that isn't Pack Rat. Not to say that we need a plethora, just that some MU's rely on alt wincons and having someone extract it hurts so much.
The reason I'm splashing green, taking damage from lands, and straining my mana base, is because I think green has a lot of cheap removal that shores up black's weaknesses. Prior to green, I'd have to side in symetrical discard effects to deal with Leylines. Green can rip them open for cheap. Life gain doesn't matter as we go long anyways. When life becomes a factor it means they've already lost. Claim can hit your own bridge after a pack rat buildup, to alpha strike + 4 life. Loam can combine with Crime to destroy hands that Dakmor-Crime can't touch, ie. When we've got not a whole lot and they've managed to draw/sandbag cards to escape the racks. Loam also makes Mutavault more expendable/dependable. It can chump for Lily for a few turns, letting you escape some of the more aggressive decks. Abrupt Decay is just awesome. It's like Victim of Night, but more versatile in more ways. Obviously doesn't hit 3+ permanents, but those are rare.
As far as the sideboard goes, I wanted to test the idea that we might be able to run a splash, cutting some cards down to 3 for a greater array of effects and then board into/out of cards with don't help. Making the deck run like it has 4/4/4/4 of specific staples in games 2/3 and evening up our matches across the field g1. I've only just started testing this board, so let me know what you think.
Shadow of Doubt is in testing for the first time. It theoretically helps us against Tron + Pod, and cantrips. How much it helps (for this build, I know it's been tested before) will remain to be seen. I know Cage is the standby for Pod, but I still feel like it's susceptible to removal before going off (like Leyline Against Storm/Ad Nauseam). The sideboard is still very experimental so this could all get scrapped soon. I am considering still putting Worm Harvest back in the sb, as it gets underneath bridge and interacts very well with loam. I would like a alt wincon that isn't Pack Rat. Not to say that we need a plethora, just that some MU's rely on alt wincons and having someone extract it hurts so much.
If I've left anything out let me know.
Questions:
You've added green to upgrade your 3 removal spells into abrupt decay - fine.
You've added green to give yourself a bad, dredgeless loam engine in a deck that already has access to 5 engines in black. Please justify this.
You've added green to give yourself different sideboard options. How much better is your Pod and Tron matchup? How much worse is Jund and Burn feeling with your painful mana base? I'm looking for non anecdotal evidence here.
Where is your attempt to help keep the deck in established by using this list? Do you have any intention of playing it in a Daily, or in a tournament big enough to mean something for established criteria?
Yes that's what I think of the deck as well, while not so defeatist as ML put it.
I hear you but its not defeatist exactly, its more about odds and probability. Consider this:
The odds any one specific deck will win a big tourney go up directly in proportion to the number of people running said deck. Hundreds of people come with Pod or BGx or Burn, and still only a few of them get through. This is what tier 1 netdeckers do...those decks simply zerg big tourneys and take up most of the top prizes through sheer numbers.
The odds that a single person running 8Rack at a huge tourney could top 8 are extremely long. Sure its possible, and if I ever get the chance to try I will, but the odds are still very long even for me. Then you throw people with little experience trying to do it with terribad builds like we saw from Jan Miller and the odds get even longer.
Sure, it could happen, but without the big numbers of players its unlikely. And this deck can never want to be seen in large numbers.
If you think about it, what hates out an 8rack deck. Leyline of Sanctity is about it. Even if you run gravehate all it stops is raven's crime. Now, what are the deck's boogeymen? Tron, which has not been a huge factor in events lately, and BGx/pod, which are all over the f-ing place, neither of which run leyline. Why are they so bad for us? With Tron it's the power in their removal and potent endgame fueled by huge mana. BGx/pod has a toolbox of options for dealing with our key elements. Everything worth playing by us gets killed by abrupt decay.
So what beats BGx? Their own primer says Burn, Zoo, Twin, Tron. So you have 3 fast decks and one with nothing their removal hits. How would we incorporate any of that into our build? Maybe something like special combo package? Maybe the duskmantle/mindcrank combo? They're going to focus on our bridges, racks, and liliana. Duskmantle Guildmage/bloodchief ascension works with our strategy anyway. It's not turning the deck into anything different, just adding a different wincon than either rats or bitterblossom.
Total spitballing here. You know how some decks will have a special sideboard package for some games, like Fae will run a gifts suite. Maybe we do too?
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You've added green to give yourself a bad, dredgeless loam engine in a deck that already has access to 5 engines in black. Please justify this.
This is why people straight up don't like you. You're insulting someone when you could be asking a reasonable question. The Loam/Crime engine is not "bad" as you put it. That does put emphasis on the fact that you're bad at evaluating cards. Maybe you have never played with/against Loam/Crime before, and somehow think that Dakmor Salvage is comparable when it's strictly worse at doing what Loam can do for Raven's Crime. He is running Dakmor Salvage in addition to Loam btw.
Furthermore, Phone did justify other points to running Loam which include recycling Mutavault as a chump blocker for Liliana. Again, you ignore valid points and only see what you want to see in your magical "everyone else's perspective is irrelevant in my world" delusions.
As for putting up results in big events, what happened during the Modern PTQ season? Where were all these top 8 finishes from your meta assassin? If paper magic players are as terrible as you want people to believe, it makes me wonder why you're not on the pro tour.
If you think about it, what hates out an 8rack deck. Leyline of Sanctity is about it. Even if you run gravehate all it stops is raven's crime. Now, what are the deck's boogeymen? Tron, which has not been a huge factor in events lately, and BGx/pod, which are all over the f-ing place, neither of which run leyline. Why are they so bad for us? With Tron it's the power in their removal and potent endgame fueled by huge mana. BGx/pod has a toolbox of options for dealing with our key elements. Everything worth playing by us gets killed by abrupt decay.
So what beats BGx? Their own primer says Burn, Zoo, Twin, Tron. So you have 3 fast decks and one with nothing their removal hits. How would we incorporate any of that into our build? Maybe something like special combo package? Maybe the duskmantle/mindcrank combo? They're going to focus on our bridges, racks, and liliana. Duskmantle Guildmage/bloodchief ascension works with our strategy anyway. It's not turning the deck into anything different, just adding a different wincon than either rats or bitterblossom.
Total spitballing here. You know how some decks will have a special sideboard package for some games, like Fae will run a gifts suite. Maybe we do too?
8Rack is vulnerable to board removal spells above all. Abrupt decay hits everything we have. A tutored Qasali Pridemage / harmonic sliver hits everything except Lili. Maelstrom Pulse hits everything. BGx uses the most efficient creatures in the format to keep pressure on all game, and removes anything in its way. Pod tutors up ways to break through our lock or just combos out before we can put pressure on them. You are not going to stop any of that with what you are suggesting.
You've added green to upgrade your 3 removal spells into abrupt decay - fine. not a question
You've added green to give yourself a bad, dredgeless loam engine in a deck that already has access to 5 engines in black. Please justify this. I justified this is in my post. Our manlands are important. Raven's Crime is important. I'm currently running 4 cards that dredge. Should this not be enough, I'll add them back in again. The deck isn't based around dredging loam any more than your deck is about dredging Darkblast. Loam is an efficient way to stock our hand for Pack Rat, Lily, and Crime.
You've added green to give yourself different sideboard options. How much better is your Pod and Tron matchup? How much worse is Jund and Burn feeling with your painful mana base? I'm looking for non anecdotal evidence here. Pod and tron have been getting better. Honestly don't see them too much. Which is sad because that's what I want to test the most. I'm not sure how to answer your last question because I continue to crush burn witht the same frequency that I did before.
Where is your attempt to help keep the deck in established by using this list? Do you have any intention of playing it in a Daily, or in a tournament big enough to mean something for established criteria? Honestly, I can barely afford to get the deck together in paper. I have no real intentions of playing in MTGO. As for paper events I will go to any that I'm capable of. But I'm currently living in Saskatoon, SK and we don't see a ton of huge events.
What is your DCI number? Off the top of my head? No idea. I got it written down somewhere.
@Hardkor: Yeah, I'm testing Llanowar wastes instead because it comes into play untapped. Honestly, I had been finding it to be an issue before and so I switched them out for wastes.
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You've added green to give yourself a bad, dredgeless loam engine in a deck that already has access to 5 engines in black. Please justify this.
This is why people straight up don't like you. You're insulting someone when you could be asking a reasonable question. The Loam/Crime engine is not "bad" as you put it. That does put emphasis on the fact that you're bad at evaluating cards. Maybe you have never played with/against Loam/Crime before, and somehow think that Dakmor Salvage is comparable when it's strictly worse at doing what Loam can do for Raven's Crime. He is running Dakmor Salvage in addition to Loam btw.
Furthermore, Phone did justify other points to running Loam which include recycling Mutavault as a chump blocker for Liliana. Again, you ignore valid points and only see what you want to see in your magical "everyone else's perspective is irrelevant in my world" delusions.
As for putting up results in big events, what happened during the Modern PTQ season? Where were all these top 8 finishes from your meta assassin? If paper magic players are as terrible as you want people to believe, it makes me wonder why you're not on the pro tour.
I think this is a problem for trying to actually explain deck choices and get them talked about, splashes or otherwise. Above I mention how some cards act like other cards, despite being named different things. Loam/Crime with a manland and an LD spell in a primarily black deck is an efficient version of running 16 discard spells and has added utility in LD, and chumps for planeswalkers--while also being immune to the symmetry of said planeswalker. The current use of raven's crime is pathetic comparatively, but its useless to argue. To me, for the low low cost of making your deck have access to just a single green a turn, you can simply do the same thing...better.
Instead we have the memorylapse inquisition asking for DCI numbers.
BTW, and no disrespect to phone, he has some budget stuff in the deck for the time being, but more or less a variation of my list, reposted below:
I played gifts last tuesday instead of 8rack, and didn't do so hot, but I'm gearing up for some fetch swaps and stuff so I need to repractice. Outside of testing, I haven't done below a 3-1 results (twice), and 4-0'd 3 times now. I've been piloting this for about two months, so I'd assume I can do better the longer I fiddle.
You don't need a full set of loam/crimes because you find them easily enough and you have a few draw steps to start wanting to do it anyway. I find the best play is either smallpox or waste not turn 2, then start criming or deal with a creature with liliana. Loams also help makeup land drops you missed, and recover from smallpox, so just don't sac your only green source if it comes to that.
As for putting up results in big events, what happened during the Modern PTQ season? Where were all these top 8 finishes from your meta assassin? If paper magic players are as terrible as you want people to believe, it makes me wonder why you're not on the pro tour.
Well, remember, that's the point of the deck. It doesn't exist to achieve top finishes, you're just supposed to use it to troll kids at fnm's and dailies with it. Then when they point some hate at it, it falls apart and you have to go find a different deck. That is the life of the assassin.
@BatHickey: I felt that 4 Smallpox was too many when I played the deck. 2 seemed like the right number, but then again I wasn't playing Loam in my build. Maybe cut 1-2 for Wrench Mind? Just a suggestion. Gratz on the results you've been having.
One important aspect of my list is a heavier land count than the curve demands, to work with smallpox effectively. a smallpox/crime, all land hand is keepable, maybe I will try 3 though.
I also find that raven's crime is all the wrench minds I need, because of loam doing everything wrench does with extra utility, and also providing good synergy with waste not.
Yes that's what I think of the deck as well, while not so defeatist as ML put it.
I hear you but its not defeatist exactly, its more about odds and probability. Consider this:
The odds any one specific deck will win a big tourney go up directly in proportion to the number of people running said deck. Hundreds of people come with Pod or BGx or Burn, and still only a few of them get through. This is what tier 1 netdeckers do...those decks simply zerg big tourneys and take up most of the top prizes through sheer numbers.
The odds that a single person running 8Rack at a huge tourney could top 8 are extremely long. Sure its possible, and if I ever get the chance to try I will, but the odds are still very long even for me. Then you throw people with little experience trying to do it with terribad builds like we saw from Jan Miller and the odds get even longer.
Sure, it could happen, but without the big numbers of players its unlikely. And this deck can never want to be seen in large numbers.
If you think about it, what hates out an 8rack deck. Leyline of Sanctity is about it. Even if you run gravehate all it stops is raven's crime. Now, what are the deck's boogeymen? Tron, which has not been a huge factor in events lately, and BGx/pod, which are all over the f-ing place, neither of which run leyline. Why are they so bad for us? With Tron it's the power in their removal and potent endgame fueled by huge mana. BGx/pod has a toolbox of options for dealing with our key elements. Everything worth playing by us gets killed by abrupt decay.
So what beats BGx? Their own primer says Burn, Zoo, Twin, Tron. So you have 3 fast decks and one with nothing their removal hits. How would we incorporate any of that into our build? Maybe something like special combo package? Maybe the duskmantle/mindcrank combo? They're going to focus on our bridges, racks, and liliana. Duskmantle Guildmage/bloodchief ascension works with our strategy anyway. It's not turning the deck into anything different, just adding a different wincon than either rats or bitterblossom.
Total spitballing here. You know how some decks will have a special sideboard package for some games, like Fae will run a gifts suite. Maybe we do too?
8Rack is vulnerable to board removal spells above all. Abrupt decay hits everything we have. A tutored Qasali Pridemage / harmonic sliver hits everything except Lili. Maelstrom Pulse hits everything. BGx uses the most efficient creatures in the format to keep pressure on all game, and removes anything in its way. Pod tutors up ways to break through our lock or just combos out before we can put pressure on them. You are not going to stop any of that with what you are suggesting.
What is your DCI number please Sled Dog?
RE: board removal. I'm not sure what you could do do adjust anything then. Obviously we're trying to pull out all the stuff we hate, drop grafdigger to stop pod, and we still have a difficult go. Pack rat doesn't fix the problem, by the time rats can put any real pressure on it's turn 5 and they have finks, voice, and any other number of blockers, let alone their combo. My suggestions don't address the problem, but what could you change that does? It seems you've already thought about it, and decided that if you know your field is full of this matchup you run a different deck. Totally a fair decision, especially if the goal would be to win an event; you go with what you think will win. A perfect example is the Kobe results. My suggestions give us an alternate work around. If we have our own combo it makes it that much more difficult for them. How do they focus their resources? I'm not sold on the mindcrank deal, but it's not against what we do, maybe it mills out some of their answers. Ascension isn't against what we do, maybe it activates through racks or shock lands and we can ding them while gaining some life. It's maybe the least disruptive splash suggestion so far. As a side note it would allow for something like echoing truth to be run to remove leyline of sanctity.
Look, I watch your vids, both matches and meta-assassins. The physics stuff is past me. I know you're a bright dude and a good player. You have to see that there is enough interest in this deck that people want it to be more than a meta-game option.
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@Phone: I honestly thought I posted the results of the testing I did. Now that I go back through my posts I realize I haven't and am truly sorry. I'll do that as soon as I get home, which for americans will be Sunday evening.
And yes,sure, I said I'll test all the splashes... not instantly, though. Without any intention to come off as some sort of "important" figure (which I wouldn't say I am), I am extremely bussy. My initial intention was to do one splash per week and even though I can play the games, finding time to write about them is difficult for me. Besides, I have yet to make another splash I'm happy wirh.
The tests will come, but in time. As of right now all I can do from my phone is engage in minor discussions and apologize for not posting my "findings". I'll do that asap.
I do look forward to seeing them and I'll be more patient with it. Thanks for putting up testing results, by the way.
Played four matches today. Won, all four. Played somekind of Zombies, Scapeshift, and two BGx. Zombies was awful. Scaepshift folded to rats, and thoughtseize. BGx was tough, but got lucky both games and managed to hold them off with Bridge until I could Claim in for the Alpha Strike. Sideboard has been working well, but I'll let you guys know when I start playing a lot more Tron/Pod. Still quite happy with the list I'm running, regardless. I don't consider it to be much like BatHickey's at this point, as I've moved away a little from the Pox idea, but I still think the deck does great work with Waste Not and green. Waste Not definitely gives this deck something it's been needing: Gas. In the form of mana (wrench mind t3, into a Liliana), cards, or Zombies (as a wincon or chumps). Green gives us the option to remove permanents black can't handle. Meaning we can stop losing games which we'd have to play around.
So far the sideboard has been working well, but I'll keep posting results.
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We are Modern's Landless Dredge.
R8whackR
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You say the deck isn't a meta assasin because it hasn't shown professional play results? I say the splashes haven't shown even the small results the core build has shown.
I will not change what has worked for me unless the meta changes and forces me to change (-2 Waste Not, -2 Bitterblossom for +4 Pack Rat when my meta changed from 80% control/combo to 50% tempo, 40% combo for example) so I can keep getting consistent top4 and getting top2 often. You want the splashes to be tested, please test them yourself and show us how it does. Only Esperino is justifying his splash choices, (I don't consider LoamRack a splash, I consider it a different deck, a decent deck, but not 8rack), everyone else seems to be expecting the people winning to do it for them.
Your argument is fallacious, in assuming that a path with small results is the absolute best path. It gets results but plateaued. Growth is needed for more results. Nothing against ML's list.
Don't change your deck. I don't really care what you play. I'm just here testing. And posting results. I have made many posts about the green cards I believe help the deck. As much as I appreciate Esperino, he's been all talk. Came in spewing fire about testing every splash, but hasn't posted much for all his supposed testing. I would love to see what he found. So far his contributions have been lackluster. I don't mean to knock on Esperino's testing, but his talk when he first rolled in and then nothing.
I'm not saying the Mono-black deck sucks. I was commenting on ML's view towards this deck.
@Memorylapse: I don't see how you can get so upset about people posting dumb suggestions when you say the deck is not even meant to be taken past FNM.
As for testing has been going I've been doing really well with this list below. The sideboard is something I'm testing out. Obviously cutting a few "staples" down to 3 of's to make room for a greater variety of cards - LtL, AD, and Waste Not. I'm still fiddling around with the land base. May cut a OG Tomb for Dakmor Salvage. List here:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 The Rack
Creatures
3 Pack Rat
Enchantments
3 Shrieking Affliction
2 Waste Not
Instants
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
Sorceries
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
3 Raven's Crime
3 Thoughtseize
2 Wrench mind
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands
3 Mutavault
2 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Overgrown tomb
4 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Darkblast
3 Nature's Claim
3 Shadow of Doubt
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Wrench Mind
The reason I'm splashing green, taking damage from lands, and straining my mana base, is because I think green has a lot of cheap removal that shores up black's weaknesses. Prior to green, I'd have to side in symetrical discard effects to deal with Leylines. Green can rip them open for cheap. Life gain doesn't matter as we go long anyways. When life becomes a factor it means they've already lost. Claim can hit your own bridge after a pack rat buildup, to alpha strike + 4 life. Loam can combine with Crime to destroy hands that Dakmor-Crime can't touch, ie. When we've got not a whole lot and they've managed to draw/sandbag cards to escape the racks. Loam also makes Mutavault more expendable/dependable. It can chump for Lily for a few turns, letting you escape some of the more aggressive decks. Abrupt Decay is just awesome. It's like Victim of Night, but more versatile in more ways. Obviously doesn't hit 3+ permanents, but those are rare.
As far as the sideboard goes, I wanted to test the idea that we might be able to run a splash, cutting some cards down to 3 for a greater array of effects and then board into/out of cards with don't help. Making the deck run like it has 4/4/4/4 of specific staples in games 2/3 and evening up our matches across the field g1. I've only just started testing this board, so let me know what you think.
Shadow of Doubt is in testing for the first time. It theoretically helps us against Tron + Pod, and cantrips. How much it helps (for this build, I know it's been tested before) will remain to be seen. I know Cage is the standby for Pod, but I still feel like it's susceptible to removal before going off (like Leyline Against Storm/Ad Nauseam). The sideboard is still very experimental so this could all get scrapped soon. I am considering still putting Worm Harvest back in the sb, as it gets underneath bridge and interacts very well with loam. I would like a alt wincon that isn't Pack Rat. Not to say that we need a plethora, just that some MU's rely on alt wincons and having someone extract it hurts so much.
If I've left anything out let me know.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Questions:
I hear you but its not defeatist exactly, its more about odds and probability. Consider this:
The odds any one specific deck will win a big tourney go up directly in proportion to the number of people running said deck. Hundreds of people come with Pod or BGx or Burn, and still only a few of them get through. This is what tier 1 netdeckers do...those decks simply zerg big tourneys and take up most of the top prizes through sheer numbers.
The odds that a single person running 8Rack at a huge tourney could top 8 are extremely long. Sure its possible, and if I ever get the chance to try I will, but the odds are still very long even for me. Then you throw people with little experience trying to do it with terribad builds like we saw from Jan Miller and the odds get even longer.
Sure, it could happen, but without the big numbers of players its unlikely. And this deck can never want to be seen in large numbers.
So what beats BGx? Their own primer says Burn, Zoo, Twin, Tron. So you have 3 fast decks and one with nothing their removal hits. How would we incorporate any of that into our build? Maybe something like special combo package? Maybe the duskmantle/mindcrank combo? They're going to focus on our bridges, racks, and liliana. Duskmantle Guildmage/bloodchief ascension works with our strategy anyway. It's not turning the deck into anything different, just adding a different wincon than either rats or bitterblossom.
Total spitballing here. You know how some decks will have a special sideboard package for some games, like Fae will run a gifts suite. Maybe we do too?
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
This is why people straight up don't like you. You're insulting someone when you could be asking a reasonable question. The Loam/Crime engine is not "bad" as you put it. That does put emphasis on the fact that you're bad at evaluating cards. Maybe you have never played with/against Loam/Crime before, and somehow think that Dakmor Salvage is comparable when it's strictly worse at doing what Loam can do for Raven's Crime. He is running Dakmor Salvage in addition to Loam btw.
Furthermore, Phone did justify other points to running Loam which include recycling Mutavault as a chump blocker for Liliana. Again, you ignore valid points and only see what you want to see in your magical "everyone else's perspective is irrelevant in my world" delusions.
As for putting up results in big events, what happened during the Modern PTQ season? Where were all these top 8 finishes from your meta assassin? If paper magic players are as terrible as you want people to believe, it makes me wonder why you're not on the pro tour.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Wouldn't Woodland Cemetery be better than Llanowar Wastes in almost every instance (except mutavault, mutavault, cemetery hands)?
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
8Rack is vulnerable to board removal spells above all. Abrupt decay hits everything we have. A tutored Qasali Pridemage / harmonic sliver hits everything except Lili. Maelstrom Pulse hits everything. BGx uses the most efficient creatures in the format to keep pressure on all game, and removes anything in its way. Pod tutors up ways to break through our lock or just combos out before we can put pressure on them. You are not going to stop any of that with what you are suggesting.
What is your DCI number please Sled Dog?
@Hardkor: Yeah, I'm testing Llanowar wastes instead because it comes into play untapped. Honestly, I had been finding it to be an issue before and so I switched them out for wastes.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I think this is a problem for trying to actually explain deck choices and get them talked about, splashes or otherwise. Above I mention how some cards act like other cards, despite being named different things. Loam/Crime with a manland and an LD spell in a primarily black deck is an efficient version of running 16 discard spells and has added utility in LD, and chumps for planeswalkers--while also being immune to the symmetry of said planeswalker. The current use of raven's crime is pathetic comparatively, but its useless to argue. To me, for the low low cost of making your deck have access to just a single green a turn, you can simply do the same thing...better.
Instead we have the memorylapse inquisition asking for DCI numbers.
BTW, and no disrespect to phone, he has some budget stuff in the deck for the time being, but more or less a variation of my list, reposted below:
4 mutavault
4 woodland cemetery
4 swamp
4 verdant catacombs
2 ghost quarter
1 tectonic edge
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 overgrown tomb
1 forest
Spells 35
4 liliana of the veil
4 waste not
4 smallpox
4 abrupt decay
4 thoughtseize
3 life from the loam
3 raven’s crime
2 surgical extraction
8 the rack
1 darkblast
1 worm’s harvest
1 maelstrom pulse
1 gaze of granite
1 crime//punishment
2 krosan grip
1 creeping corrosion
1 damnation
4 leyline of sanctity
3 leyline of the void
2 tombstalker
I played gifts last tuesday instead of 8rack, and didn't do so hot, but I'm gearing up for some fetch swaps and stuff so I need to repractice. Outside of testing, I haven't done below a 3-1 results (twice), and 4-0'd 3 times now. I've been piloting this for about two months, so I'd assume I can do better the longer I fiddle.
You don't need a full set of loam/crimes because you find them easily enough and you have a few draw steps to start wanting to do it anyway. I find the best play is either smallpox or waste not turn 2, then start criming or deal with a creature with liliana. Loams also help makeup land drops you missed, and recover from smallpox, so just don't sac your only green source if it comes to that.
Well, remember, that's the point of the deck. It doesn't exist to achieve top finishes, you're just supposed to use it to troll kids at fnm's and dailies with it. Then when they point some hate at it, it falls apart and you have to go find a different deck. That is the life of the assassin.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
I also find that raven's crime is all the wrench minds I need, because of loam doing everything wrench does with extra utility, and also providing good synergy with waste not.
You forget the rogue factor.
RE: board removal. I'm not sure what you could do do adjust anything then. Obviously we're trying to pull out all the stuff we hate, drop grafdigger to stop pod, and we still have a difficult go. Pack rat doesn't fix the problem, by the time rats can put any real pressure on it's turn 5 and they have finks, voice, and any other number of blockers, let alone their combo. My suggestions don't address the problem, but what could you change that does? It seems you've already thought about it, and decided that if you know your field is full of this matchup you run a different deck. Totally a fair decision, especially if the goal would be to win an event; you go with what you think will win. A perfect example is the Kobe results. My suggestions give us an alternate work around. If we have our own combo it makes it that much more difficult for them. How do they focus their resources? I'm not sold on the mindcrank deal, but it's not against what we do, maybe it mills out some of their answers. Ascension isn't against what we do, maybe it activates through racks or shock lands and we can ding them while gaining some life. It's maybe the least disruptive splash suggestion so far. As a side note it would allow for something like echoing truth to be run to remove leyline of sanctity.
Look, I watch your vids, both matches and meta-assassins. The physics stuff is past me. I know you're a bright dude and a good player. You have to see that there is enough interest in this deck that people want it to be more than a meta-game option.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
And yes,sure, I said I'll test all the splashes... not instantly, though. Without any intention to come off as some sort of "important" figure (which I wouldn't say I am), I am extremely bussy. My initial intention was to do one splash per week and even though I can play the games, finding time to write about them is difficult for me. Besides, I have yet to make another splash I'm happy wirh.
The tests will come, but in time. As of right now all I can do from my phone is engage in minor discussions and apologize for not posting my "findings". I'll do that asap.
Played four matches today. Won, all four. Played somekind of Zombies, Scapeshift, and two BGx. Zombies was awful. Scaepshift folded to rats, and thoughtseize. BGx was tough, but got lucky both games and managed to hold them off with Bridge until I could Claim in for the Alpha Strike. Sideboard has been working well, but I'll let you guys know when I start playing a lot more Tron/Pod. Still quite happy with the list I'm running, regardless. I don't consider it to be much like BatHickey's at this point, as I've moved away a little from the Pox idea, but I still think the deck does great work with Waste Not and green. Waste Not definitely gives this deck something it's been needing: Gas. In the form of mana (wrench mind t3, into a Liliana), cards, or Zombies (as a wincon or chumps). Green gives us the option to remove permanents black can't handle. Meaning we can stop losing games which we'd have to play around.
So far the sideboard has been working well, but I'll keep posting results.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG